HRW Report about Lebanon

[Leif Roar]

For those who follow the current war in Southern Lebanon, Human Rights Watch has released a report, Fatal Strikes with the sub-title
Israel’s Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon, in which they direct a scathing critique against Israeli attacks on civilians.

[Geckko]

Originally Posted by Leif Roar

For those who follow the current war in Southern Lebanon, Human Rights Watch has released a report, Fatal Strikes with the sub-title
Israel’s Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon, in which they direct a scathing critique against Israeli attacks on civilians.

I reckon this will be another 50 page thread.

The methodology underlying the report is guaranteed to create a reaction:

Quote:

Methodology

This report is based primarily on investigations by Human Rights Watch researchers, who have been in Beirut since the onset of the conflict and traveled for two days to Lebanon’s South. The team focused on interviewing witnesses and survivors of Israeli strikes inside Lebanon, gathering detailed testimony from these individuals, and carefully corroborating and cross-checking their accounts with international aid workers, international and local journalists, medical professionals, local officials, as well as information from the IDF.

Quote:

Security conditions did not permit on-site visits to many of the villages or other sites where civilian casualties are documented in this report, but in all cases Human Rights Watch located eyewitnesses to attacks.

and

Quote:

As noted, in the cases documented in this report, witnesses consistently told Human Rights Watch that neither Hezbollah fighters nor other legitimate military targets were in the area that the IDF attacked.

You couldn't really criticise anyone from responding "well, they would say that, wouldn't they?"

and

Quote:

These conditions limited Human Rights Watch’s ability to make a legal determination regarding whether the target in question was legitimate. In such cases, researchers sought additional witnesses outside of Hezbollah’s control to investigate the location of Hezbollah militants in the area at the time of the attack. If such witnesses could not be found, Human Rights Watch dropped the case.

This self (hezbollah controlled?) selection means the study doesn't give any real feel for the relative incidence.


There must be some way we can put a stop to all this killing, but I'm yet to be convinced of the value of such work as this given the circumstances with respect to access to information, the lack of any real distinction between "military" and "civilian" and the conflicted nature and unknown allegences of "eye witnesses" and even "local journalists/officials", "rescue workers" or "international observers".

I reckon we need to pursue a no-fault solution to this. The first step is for the supporters of each side to stop trying to clamber over one another in pursuit of the moral high-ground.

[FireGarden]

The IDF admits there were no rocket launches on the day of the strike at Qana.

Quote:

Haaretz

As the Israel Air Force continues to investigate the air strike, questions have been raised over military accounts of the incident.

It now appears that the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence of Hezbollah men at the time.

The Israel Defense Forces had said after the deadly air-strike that many rockets had been launched from Qana. However, it changed its version on Monday.

The site was included in an IAF plan to strike at several buildings in proximity to a previous launching site. Similar strikes were carried out in the past. However, there were no rocket launches from Qana on the day of the strike.

But there was a real target... somewhere in the area.... North, south, east, west of Tikrit somewhat!

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by Geckko

I reckon we need to pursue a no-fault solution to this.

How about Hezbollah and Hamas release the hostages, disarm and recognize Israel's right to exist? Then stop arming and funding terrorists, and actively pursue them.

In return Israel won't invade or bomb.

It's really that simple, no? There will never be peace as long as Israel is surrounded by people/countries who support those who wish to destroy it.

[Katana]

I shared your concerns about the methodology, Geckko, but I was left thinking that HWR may have done about as well as anyone could (or has done up to this point). However, I do continue to feel that all of the information coming out of Israel and Lebanon is suspect and should be taken with a grain of salt.


Edited to add missing word.

[Geckko]

Originally Posted by Katana

I shared your concerns about the methodology, Geckko, but I was left thinking that HWR may have done about as well as anyone could (or has done up to this point). I continue to feel that all of the information coming out of Israel and Lebanon is suspect and should be taken with a grain of salt.

What I take from it is that "doing as well as one could" and then drawing unambiguous, definitive and damning and conclusions is, in these circumstances, highly questionable.

Best they said:

"We have tried to study the situation on the Lebonese side of the border and encounter many obstacles to obtaining true and accurate information. We can only conclude that there has been some significant loss of innocent civilian life, but can not make any inference about underlying circumstances that led to the victims being in the area of an Israeli attack. Neither can we draw any conclusions about the intent, nature, accuracy or validity of any such Israeli attacks"

Then followed up by:

"Our next report is being prepared on the same basis on the Israeli side of the border"

[Katana]

Originally Posted by WildCat

How about Hezbollah and Hamas release the hostages, disarm and recognize Israel's right to exist? Then stop arming and funding terrorists, and actively pursue them.

In return Israel won't invade or bomb.

Will Israel release its prisoners? Aside from the hatred due to Israel's very existence, a lot of anger is fueled by the fact that thousands of Palestinians are being held in Israeli prisons, many without even being charged (hmm, sounds familiar).

[Geckko]

Originally Posted by WildCat

How about Hezbollah and Hamas release the hostages, disarm and recognize Israel's right to exist? Then stop arming and funding terrorists, and actively pursue them.

In return Israel won't invade or bomb.

It's really that simple, no? There will never be peace as long as Israel is surrounded by people/countries who support those who wish to destroy it.

That seems to be the issue that has divided the US and France at the UN. The US believing that the fundamental causes need to be addressed satisfactorally in order to ensure a meaningful and sustainable end to this.

I must say I have a lot of sympathy for that view, but still wonder is there no way we can do that without the bombs and rockets flying?

[Geckko]

Originally Posted by Katana

Will Israel release its prisoners? Aside from the hatred due to Israel's very existence, a lot of anger is fueled by the fact that thousands of Palestinians are being held in Israeli prisons, many without even being charged (hmm, sounds familiar).

By familiar, do you mean detention of IRA suspects in Britain?

[Katana]

Originally Posted by Geckko

What I take from it is that "doing as well as one could" and then drawing unambiguous, definitive and damning and conclusions is, in these circumstances, highly questionable.

You're right. In reality, most people will simply read the headlines without digging further to understand the limitations of HRW's conclusions.

[Katana]

Originally Posted by Geckko

By familiar, do you mean detention of IRA suspects in Britain?

I mean the prisoners that America is holding in Guantanamo, many for years without any charges being filed against them.

[webfusion]

Has any independent organization looked over the list of fatalities at Qana?
HRW prepared this list from "a register" of the names of the people huddled in that building (apparently these individuals were not residents).

Why was there a "register" being kept? What was this, a Hezbollah Hotel? That seems to be the implication.

A simple question that has not been answered:

How many of the 12 adult fatalities were actually Hezbollah men?
Why has nobody gone over the list and come up with that information?
It seems really basic, for journalists especially, whose job is to do investigations such as this and report the facts.

And in the report by HRW, they remarked --- Israel's contention about Hezbollah men hiding among civilians did not justify its "systematic failure" to distinguish between civilians and combatants.

I read that to mean, yes, Hezbollah are hiding among civilians, but Israel needs to take more care to differentiate better.

OK, so it's not always possible, with the intelligence available. Which was exactly why Israeli Defense Forces apologized for Qana, since they were surprised that the building was occupied that night. Apparently, it had been evacuated according to information the IDF had in hand, but out of nowhere, a group of transients (whose names were recorded on a "register" for some reason) suddenly were put into this place.

Something doesn't add up.
How many of those casualties were actually residents of Tyre?
If so, how did their bodies end up in a basement of a building in Qana at 8am on Sunday 7-30 ?

I do not expect any answers. This whole affair is off the media radar, and attention is now focused on the suburbs of Beirut and also upon the Syrian border, as IAF strikes pummel down.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images..._strike_hp.jpg
The three main highway bridges bombed early Friday include one just north of Beirut at Maameltain and two further north at Madfoun and Halat, security sources and witnesses said. The attacks punched craters in the bridges, spraying the roads with rubble and twisted metal and destroying several cars. They also set fire to trees on the hillsides. The bridges have now been effectively closed to traffic. Four civilians were killed and 10 wounded in the airstrikes, the Lebanese Red Cross said. A Lebanese soldier and four other civilians were killed in air raids near Beirut's airport and southern suburbs, security officials and witnesses said. Later on Friday an additional 25 civilian casualties (no mention of fatalities vs. wounded) were reported in an IAF strike on a parking lot used by trucks and buses on Lebanon's border with Syria in the eastern Bekaa Valley.


And so it goes ---

Where are the IDF hostages Goldwasser and Regev?
Why aren't they being released unconditionally by Hezbollah?

[RyanRoberts]

Many of those prisoners were charged with terrorism offences , released as part of the Olso deal and later reintered without new charges. Certainly this is the case for their poster girl who is currently on hunger strike. She was serving 10 years for a car bomb plot and being a member of Islamic Jihad.

It is internment, with all the potential injustices that entails, but it's not quite rounding up random Arabs off the street to use as bargaining chips as some sections of the media present it.

[Geckko]

Originally Posted by Katana

I mean the prisoners that America is holding in Guantanamo, many for years without any charges being filed against them.

I thought my example was better.

IRA suspects were held without charge indefinitely on suspicion of terrorist activities within the jurisdiction, and under the laws, of the country in which they were held.

Aren't the Palestinian prisoners of that ilk?

[Darat]

By the way we do have a new section dedicated to discussing Conspiracy Theories - don't know why but I thought that may be worthwhile mentioning in this thread at this point.

[webfusion]

The only prisoners who have any bearing on the Lebanon crisis are Goldwasser and Regev.

The only prisoner who has any bearing on the Gaza crisis is Shalit.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by webfusion

The only prisoners who have any bearing on the Lebanon crisis are Goldwasser and Regev.

The only prisoner who has any bearing on the Gaza crisis is Shalit.

...Because Arabs just don't matter.

[Katana]

Originally Posted by Geckko

I thought my example was better.

IRA suspects were held without charge indefinitely on suspicion of terrorist activities within the jurisdiction, and under the laws, of the country in which they were held.

Aren't the Palestinian prisoners of that ilk?

Oops. Sorry. Yes. Better example.

So it is lawful in Israel to hold them indefinitely? Does that jive with the Geneva Conventions?

[webfusion]

Originally Posted by Darat

By the way we do have a new section dedicated to discussing Conspiracy Theories - don't know why but I thought that may be worthwhile mentioning in this thread at this point.

No, darat, if you are referring in a backhanded way to my post #12, I totally disagree with your classification of the questions I asked as "conspiracy theory" material ---

• Why was there a "register" being kept? What was this, a Hezbollah Hotel? That seems to be the implication.
  
  A simple question that has not been answered:
  
  How many of the 12 adult fatalities were actually Hezbollah men?
  Why has nobody gone over the list and come up with that information?
  It seems really basic, for journalists especially, whose job is to do investigations such as this and report the facts.

Indeed, from the known facts, a mysterious "register" was maintained of the people in that building. From the known facts, the people in that building did not live there. From the known facts (photographic images of the bodies on the site) there were several men among the 12 adult fatailites. From the known facts, the names of the fatailites are available in the public record, and it should be a relatively simple matter to compare these names with known Hezbollah members. That's why we have journalists -- this is the type of thing they can accomplish, as investigators with access to the facts. It is a very basic function of their jobs.

I am not suggesting a 'conspiracy' -- I am asking a simple question:

How many of those 12 adult fatalities in Qana were Hezbollah men?

I do not expect an answer to that question, as I said, because the focus of the journalists has already been distracted by the ongoing rush of events...

Don't think that Geraldo Rivera or Anderson Cooper are gonna take two seconds from their busy schedules to look into that...

Move along, nothing to see here...

[Katana]

Originally Posted by webfusion

The only prisoner who has any bearing on the Gaza crisis is Shalit.

Not really. His capture was intended to persuade Israel to release Palestinian prisoners.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/730994.html

Quote:

Sunday's attack was claimed by the Hamas military wing, the Popular Resistance Committees and a hitherto unknown group calling itself the Army of Islam.

Corporal Gilad Shalit was abducted in the pre-dawn attack on his tank, in which two of the members of his four-strong crew were killed and the third seriously wounded.

A pamphlet sent to local Gaza media outlets Monday and signed by the three groups said that they would only release information on the fate of Shalit if Israel freed Palestinian women and under-18s held in its jails.

Quote:

Hamas leader Khaled Meshal, the Damascus-based head of Hamas' political bureau, is also involved in the process.

According to the intelligence officer, the terrorists' original plan was to kidnap an IDF soldier, present him at a press conference and use him as a bargaining chip in demanding the release of Palestinian prisoners held in Israel. However, once the gunmen abducted Shalit, "they realized they were holding a hot potato."

[geni]

Originally Posted by Geckko

Aren't the Palestinian prisoners of that ilk?

Not really. Of the 9000 odd only about 600 have not been charged or been given a trial.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by webfusion

No, darat, if you are referring in a backhanded way to my post #12, I totally disagree with your classification of the questions I asked as "conspiracy theory" material ---

• Why was there a "register" being kept? What was this, a Hezbollah Hotel? That seems to be the implication.
  
  A simple question that has not been answered:
  
  How many of the 12 adult fatalities were actually Hezbollah men?
  Why has nobody gone over the list and come up with that information?
  It seems really basic, for journalists especially, whose job is to do investigations such as this and report the facts.

Indeed, from the known facts, a mysterious "register" was maintained of the people in that building. From the known facts, the people in that building did not live there. From the known facts (photographic images of the bodies on the site) there were several men among the 12 adult fatailites. From the known facts, the names of the fatailites are available in the public record, and it should be a relatively simple matter to compare these names with known Hezbollah members. That's why we have journalists -- this is the type of thing they can accomplish, as investigators with access to the facts. It is a very basic function of their jobs.

I am not suggesting a 'conspiracy' -- I am asking a simple question:

How many of those 12 adult fatalities in Qana were Hezbollah men?

I do not expect an answer to that question, as I said, because the focus of the journalists has already been distracted by the ongoing rush of events...

Don't think that Geraldo Rivera or Anderson Cooper are gonna take two seconds from their busy schedules to look into that...

Move along, nothing to see here...

Well I wasn't referring to your post but certainly the one above has a hint of a conspiracy theory about it.

[geni]

Originally Posted by webfusion

How many of those 12 adult fatalities in Qana were Hezbollah men?

It doesn't matter. At least if the IDF is serious about winning.

[geni]

Originally Posted by webfusion

The only prisoners who have any bearing on the Lebanon crisis are Goldwasser and Regev.

Somewhat doubtful. That only holds if you belive that the IDF would stop if they got those men back. I doubt that is the case as it is unlikely hezbollah would.

Quote:

The only prisoner who has any bearing on the Gaza crisis is Shalit.

Well there were those members of the Muamar family that the IDF requisitioned the day before Shalit was acquired.

In any case it looks increaseingly doubtful that Shalit is alive.

[Geckko]

Originally Posted by Katana

Oops. Sorry. Yes. Better example.

So it is lawful in Israel to hold them indefinitely? Does that jive with the Geneva Conventions?

I don't think Geneva conventions have anything to do with it? It is a question of whether it is legal in Israel.

[webfusion]

Originally Posted by Katana

Oops. Sorry. Yes. Better example.

So it is lawful in Israel to hold them indefinitely? Does that jibe with the Geneva Conventions?

Israel legal experts maintain that the Conventions do not apply in the instance of palestinian Administrative Detainees (which are covered by Emergency Regulations)

In any case, most palestinians are held in Israeli prisons on specific charges, and either they are incarcerated pending trial, have been convicted, or are unable to get bail. (The amounts of bail set are usually beyond the ability of palestinians to pay -- sometimes in the thousands of shekels -- so they sit and wait until their cases are concluded).

The current number of "administrative detainees" held by the military is 105.
The Israeli Prison Service (IPS) which is under the jurisdiction of the Justice Department (non-military) has another six hundred and fifty

Israel now holds around 9000 palestinians in both military and IPS facilities.

[Katana]

Originally Posted by geni

Not really. Of the 9000 odd only about 600 have not been charged or been given a trial.

Where did you get this? I haven't come across that factoid.

[webfusion]

geni:In any case it looks increasingly doubtful that Shalit is alive.

Evidence?

[webfusion]

Originally Posted by Katana

Where did you get this? I haven't come across that factoid.

We posted at the same time --- see answer in my post #26.

[Katana]

Originally Posted by Geckko

I don't think Geneva conventions have anything to do with it? It is a question of whether it is legal in Israel.

Then maybe I don't understand their purpose. When do the Geneva Conventions come into play?

According to www.genevaconventions.org:

Quote:

The following are rules applicable in all conflicts, regardless of whether the countries in question are signatories of the Geneva Conventions – and regardless of whether the warring party in question is recognized as an independent state.

Didn't the Bush administration get slapped by the Supreme Court recently for saying that the Geneva Conventions didn't apply to the terrorism suspects held at Guantanamo?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/07/....ap/index.html

Quote:

White House spokesman Tony Snow said the policy, outlined in a new Defense Department memo, reflects the recent 5-3 Supreme Court decision blocking military tribunals set up by President Bush. That decision struck down the tribunals because they did not obey international law and had not been authorized by Congress.

The policy, described in a memo by Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England, appears to reverse the administration's earlier insistence that the detainees are not prisoners of war and thus not subject to the Geneva protections.

[Geckko]

Originally Posted by Katana

Then maybe I don't understand their purpose. When do the Geneva Conventions come into play?

According to www.genevaconventions.org:

Maybe I don't.

I know they don't apply when you arrest someone on your own territory under domestic laws.

I don't equate a car bomber in Israel as an enemy combatant, but rather a murderer. That was the same stance taken with IRA prisoners who were detained in Britain.

Having said that, I don't know of all the various individual circumstances of every Palestinian currently under arrest, imprisonment or detention and why they are there.

[Katana]

Interesting perspective on the emrgency regulations from the Israel Democracy Institute:

Quote:

When these regulations were effected, the Jewish population of Palestine reacted with fury and very determinedly. This reaction is understandable in light of the extreme impact on human rights issuing from them. The regulations contain no provisions for balancing security needs against human rights. They grant the regime nearly total, unaccountable discretion ( even though the position of the Supreme Court on this point was subsequently softened when it determined that any discretion is by its nature limited) and they have no critiquing mechanism against misuse of authority.

Less understandable is the situation after the state was founded when these regulations were left standing despite the regime's cognizance that they were inappropriate to a democracy.

[geni]

Originally Posted by webfusion

geni:In any case it looks increasingly doubtful that Shalit is alive.

Evidence?

He hasn't been found. Keeping a live person in secret in Gaza for this length of time would be difficult.

[geni]

Originally Posted by Katana

Where did you get this? I haven't come across that factoid.

http://www.btselem.org/english/stati..._Prisoners.asp

Admin detainees mean no trial or charges.

[Katana]

Originally Posted by geni

http://www.btselem.org/english/stati..._Prisoners.asp

Admin detainees mean no trial or charges.

Thanks.

[FreeChile]

Originally Posted by webfusion

Has any independent organization looked over the list of fatalities at Qana?

What do you mean by look over? Human Rights Watch defines itself as an independent organization. Are you recommending that some other organization investigate the Qana incident or do you have a problem with how HRW looked over the list?

Quote:

HRW prepared this list from "a register" of the names of the people huddled in that building (apparently these individuals were not residents).

There are two lists mentioned in the report: The list of confirmed fatalities, and the register. The register was used for an initial report of the dead based on how many were rescued. However, HRW has taken a different approach. They state the number of confirmed dead, the number of escapes, and based on the number of people on the registry, the number of unknown. The Human Rights Watch report provides the list of confirmed fatalities reported by the Lebanese Red Cross and Tyre hospital. That list includes the age for each individual.

You agree with the HRW report in believing that some of the people in the building were not residents. The people on the register had sought shelter.

Quote:

Why was there a "register" being kept? What was this, a Hezbollah Hotel? That seems to be the implication.

What is a Hezbollah Hotel? Do you find it strange that a shelter would maintain a list of refugees—especially if there are children in it? Why would a Hezbollah Hotel keep a register and not a shelter?

Quote:

A simple question that has not been answered:

How many of the 12 adult fatalities were actually Hezbollah men? Why has nobody gone over the list and come up with that information?

Who says that there were Hezbollah men there? Whoever says that should answer that question since they seem to know the answer.

Quote:

Why has nobody gone over the list and come up with that information?

Because not everyone is interested in finding Hezbollah men.

Quote:

It seems really basic, for journalists especially, whose job is to do investigations such as this and report the facts.

Since you claim it is “really basic,” please tell them or tell us how to find these Hezbollah men. The simple fact is that the adult fatalities are no longer Hezbollah men. They are dead men.

Quote:

And in the report by HRW, they remarked --- Israel's contention about Hezbollah men hiding among civilians did not justify its "systematic failure" to distinguish between civilians and combatants.

I read that to mean, yes, Hezbollah are hiding among civilians, but Israel needs to take more care to differentiate better.

Your paraphrase does not reflect what the report concludes and recommeds. Please provide a direct quote if you can. Here is an example.

Quote:

HRW:

the cases documented here reveal a systematic failure by the IDF to distinguish between combatants and civilians.

[webfusion]

Originally Posted by geni

He hasn't been found. Keeping a live person in secret in Gaza for this length of time would be difficult.

He could have been taken out, through the hole in the Rafah crossing.

In any case, the working assumption is that he is alive. You really have nothing to back up your words, so why would you post them here?

[webfusion]

[quote=FreeChile;1820025]What do you mean by look over? Human Rights Watch defines itself as an independent organization. Are you recommending that some other organization investigate the Qana incident or do you have a problem with how HRW looked over the list?[quote]

I have a problem with HRW.
Where is the list? Has it been made available to the press?
What names are on it?

Quote:

There are two lists mentioned in the report: The list of confirmed fatalities, and the register. The register was used for an initial report of the dead based on how many were rescued.

I was under the impression that the 'register' was a list of all people in that building, like a hotel register; when you check in, your name is recorded. I thought that Hezbollah provided the HRW with this register, since they had placed the people in the building the night before.

Quote:

What is a Hezbollah Hotel? Do you find it strange that a shelter would maintain a list of refugees—especially if there are children in it? Why would a Hezbollah Hotel keep a register and not a shelter?

This refers to my previous point --- was there a register being kept of all occupants of the building? It was not a proper 'shelter' nor a proper 'hotel', but was only a temporary refuge. Who led these people there?

Quote:

Who says that there were Hezbollah men there? Whoever says that should answer that question since they seem to know the answer.

How is anyone anywhere in Lebanon identified as being "Hezbollah" ?
That is why there are a lot of 'civilians' on the death rolls who are actually not 'innocents' but are actually Hezbollah.

Quote:

Because not everyone is interested in finding Hezbollah men.

I don't know what this means.

Quote:

Since you claim it is “really basic,” please tell them or tell us how to find these Hezbollah men. The simple fact is that the adult fatalities are no longer Hezbollah men. They are dead men.

If they were Hezbollah men, then they were hiding among civilians and the IDF might have had intelligence information that there were Hezbollah men staying in that building overnight, and the air raid was ordered based on that intel.

Someone, somewhere, in the Israeli chain of command made a decision to bomb that specific building. Could it have been because they had been tipped-off about the presence of Hezbollah men there? (And the presence of women and children was not disclosed) ?

As for the recommendations of HRW --- stuff them.

[geni]

Originally Posted by webfusion

He could have been taken out, through the hole in the Rafah crossing.

Maybe but I doubt Mubarak would want captured israelis on his land. HE does quite well out of haveing relitavly peacful relations with Israel.

Quote:

In any case, the working assumption is that he is alive. You really have nothing to back up your words, so why would you post them here?

Mostly because I find the whole thing darkly amuseing.

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by Cleon

...Because Arabs just don't matter.

Not if they are Hammass, Hezdksukrs,Al Qrearender or equivalent. Regular -not really bummed on religion and the crap it brings - Arabs are perfectly fine.