Cheney hunting accident conspiracy

Ace_of_Sevens · 4th August 2006, 11:08 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=721Jy6XYtMg

Andrew Sullivan used this as his You Tube of the day. I e-mailed him about the dubious authorship, but my extertise on shotgun ballistics is limited to a paper I wrote in an AP Physics class in high school. I don't really know enough to properly debunk it. Can anyone weigh in?

here's Sully site:

http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/

Axenos · 4th August 2006, 11:25 AM

Now there are 10 minutes of my life I wish I had back.

I am no ballistics expert, but I grew up hunting in WV and had shotguns all my life.

As he says the load goes "All around his target, up and over" I just wanted to laugh. Yes, pellet groups expand as they travel... but his description just tells me he was shooting high.

You would also need the shotgun, as it has been my personal experience that all shotguns tend to shoot differently. I had a shotgun once that could keep a dinner plate sized pattern at 25 yards and believe me it would have penetrated your skin had I hit you.

There are several more things that would be needed to make that a valid test... too many for me to list here.

In my humble opinion it's just silly publicity... some dude on the conspiracy bandwagon.

Mid · 4th August 2006, 11:26 AM

There's a response up on his site. Did you send this?

Quote:

You do realize that Alex Jones is a conspiracy nut nut who thinks the Jews did 9/11 and not a ballistics expert, yes?

Ace_of_Sevens · 4th August 2006, 11:28 AM

Yeah. That was me.

Mid · 4th August 2006, 11:46 AM

Arkan_Wolfshade · 4th August 2006, 12:50 PM

*sigh* He shouldn't have entered in to a field of knowledge of which I am quite familiar:
Jones' claim after the first round: 100 bb's in the load, 50 hit the target
fact: there are ~345 7 1/2 size pellets in 1 oz of shot. This means that there are ~258 pellets in 3/4 of an oz of 7 1/2 shot. http://www.shotgunworld.com/amm.html

Looking here http://www.angelfire.com/tx/ShotGun/ , under the Pattern section you can see that for cylindar (no choke, which was Jones' first shot) you can expect to retain 25-35% of the shot within the kill circle at 40 yards. This equates to 64-90 pellets hitting the target. 40 yards is further out than Cheney was, iirc. I believe Cheney was at ~30 yrds.

2nd round: if this is truly using the "modified" level of choke, we can expect 45-55% of shot to be within the 30" circle at 40 yards. This comes out to 116-141 pellets.

I'm not even going to comment on the "soft rubber" kickboxing dummy, beyond saying that the claim that its material is "very similar to human skin" is crap.

Per http://www.winchester.com/products/c...8H7&bn=1&use=6, we also see that (and this is just a standard load, I do not know if Cheney was using hand-loads or not) a 2 3/4" 28ga 3/4 oz shot shell will have ~1205 fps at the muzzle.

Jones' pattern complaint. He's wrong. Consider

Quote:

Good to 35 Yards. It surprises many shooters that the 28-gauge delivers a consistent pattern out to 35 yards. On a percentage basis, the 28-gauge will put as much of its pattern into a 30-inch circle at 35 yards as a 12- or 20-gauge will. This makes the 28-gauge ideal for small-game hunting within that distance.

http://www.progressivefarmer.com/far...112682,00.html

http://www.angelfire.com/tx/ShotGun/ Pattern section as mentioned above

http://www.shotgunworld.com/amm.html

Typical Shot Spread Per Choke
Choke....Yards
.........10.....15......20......25......30......35 ......40......45......50
Full.....10"....15".....20".....25".....30".....35 ".....40".....45".....50"
Mod......15"....20".....25".....30".....35".....40 ".....45".....50"
I/C......20"....25".....30".....35".....40".....45". ....50"
Cylinder.25"....30".....35".....40".....45".....50 "

Dummy, chicken & watermelon: Jones never clarifies which choked barrel he is using. He could well be using the cylindar choke, which has a much larger spread than the modified choke.

Additionally, it is clearly windy. 7 1/2 size shot is only .095" in diameter, and is quite vulnerable to wind drift. This will affect the patterns observed upon the target.

WildCat · 4th August 2006, 06:59 PM

One of my old college roomates is now one of Cheney's Secret Service agents and was with him that day. I can assure you it was due to an accident, but of course my personal connection to the case probably automatically makes me suspect in the CT'er mind.

defaultdotxbe · 4th August 2006, 07:09 PM

why would you need a conspiracy to shoot someone in the face with a shotgun? isnt that something you just go and do?

gumboot · 4th August 2006, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe

why would you need a conspiracy to shoot someone in the face with a shotgun? isnt that something you just go and do?

No, the evil gubmint conspirat0rs are alien drones, telepathically controlled by the Queen deep inside the hive onboard the mothership orbiting the earth.

Hence for one drone to act, in actuality the entire hive has conspired to act. Ergo, conspiracy. When Bush goes to the bathroom... it's a conspiracy.

-Andrew

kevin · 4th August 2006, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe

why would you need a conspiracy to shoot someone in the face with a shotgun? isnt that something you just go and do?

and then to screw it up and let the guy live. What kind of retard plans these things?

defaultdotxbe · 4th August 2006, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by kevin

and then to screw it up and let the guy live. What kind of retard plans these things?

probably the beaurocracy, he had to get approval from all his co-conspirators to finish the job with a second shot, and by the time he got the OK the guy was already in the ambulance on the hospital

Azure · 4th August 2006, 11:07 PM

I seriously fail to understand how the shooting can be made a conspiracy. Is Jones saying that Cheney "tried" to shoot his hunting buddy?

Regnad Kcin · 4th August 2006, 11:28 PM

Well, I'll give it a shot. (Thanks, I'll be here all week.)

The shooting itself is not a conspiracy. However, the rationale behind an intentional shooting made to appear as an accident might be. And the delay, including the unusual particulars on how the story was reported, could add to the idea. In a CTer's mind, that is.

Azure · 4th August 2006, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin

Well, I'll give it a shot. (Thanks, I'll be here all week.)

The shooting itself is not a conspiracy. However, the rationale behind an intentional shooting made to appear as an accident might be. And the delay, including the unusual particulars on how the story was reported, could add to the idea. In a CTer's mind, that is.

Thanks.

At least I can try to understand where the CTer's are coming from.

Happy Birthday, btw.

Ladewig · 5th August 2006, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin

Well, I'll give it a shot. (Thanks, I'll be here all week.)

The shooting itself is not a conspiracy. However, the rationale behind an intentional shooting made to appear as an accident might be. And the delay, including the unusual particulars on how the story was reported, could add to the idea. In a CTer's mind, that is.

I've never considered myself a CTer, but I suspect the people around Cheney conspired after the accidental shooting to hide Cheney's blood alcohol level from the local police.

kevin · 5th August 2006, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

I've never considered myself a CTer, but I suspect the people around Cheney conspired after the accidental shooting to hide Cheney's blood alcohol level from the local police.

These are the kind of conspiracies I think are more realistic. Covering up things to make yourself look better, involving one or two people. Once the conspiracy spreads more than about 5 people it's going to collapse.

Polaris · 5th August 2006, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

I've never considered myself a CTer, but I suspect the people around Cheney conspired after the accidental shooting to hide Cheney's blood alcohol level from the local police.

That's been my take on it too - and to delay in order to figure out how best to spin it. What honks me off is that if any of us shot someone, albeit accidentally, we wouldn't have the luxury of waiting a few days before going to the police and not be charged with something.

jimtron · 5th August 2006, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

I've never considered myself a CTer, but I suspect the people around Cheney conspired after the accidental shooting to hide Cheney's blood alcohol level from the local police.

IIRC there were conflicting reports about whether there had been drinking or not. I think at one point someone said there was no drinking, and later someone said Cheney had had a drink.

ktesibios · 5th August 2006, 11:34 AM

So what we've got here appears to be Dick Cheney conspiring to make himself look like an utter dickweed.

And it worked like a charm.

Horatius · 5th August 2006, 12:08 PM

I'm not a hunter, and have never fired a shotgun, but what I kept wondering about while I watched that video was, if the penetration really is so weak, how does anyone ever actually kill a bird with these things? Anyone more experienced in shooting want to address this issue? At what range do you usually shoot small animals, and whatnot?

Polaris · 5th August 2006, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by Horatius

I'm not a hunter, and have never fired a shotgun, but what I kept wondering about while I watched that video was, if the penetration really is so weak, how does anyone ever actually kill a bird with these things? Anyone more experienced in shooting want to address this issue? At what range do you usually shoot small animals, and whatnot?

The shock alone, and the scale of the impact of the shot is greater for a bird (those things die from running into windows, after all).

jimtron · 5th August 2006, 05:37 PM

From The Smoking Gun:

Quote:

Katharine Armstrong, who has given conflicting accounts of whether alcohol was consumed on the day of the hunt, wrote in her February 15 statement that, "to the best of my knowledge there was no alcohol involved." Willeford stated that "there was no alcohol consumed during the afternoon of the hunt in the field," though she did have a glass of wine with lunch several hours earlier. In a February 15 Fox News interview, Cheney said that he consumed a beer with his lunch. In a same-day supplement to her initial February 15 statement, Sarita Armstrong Hixon reported that, "to my knowledge none of the members of the shooting group...consumed any alcoholic beverages."

Maybe Cheney's gun wasn't the only thing that was loaded?

Arkan_Wolfshade · 5th August 2006, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Horatius

I'm not a hunter, and have never fired a shotgun, but what I kept wondering about while I watched that video was, if the penetration really is so weak, how does anyone ever actually kill a bird with these things? Anyone more experienced in shooting want to address this issue? At what range do you usually shoot small animals, and whatnot?

A 28 gauge should be effective on quail, and the like, out to about 30 yrds.

defaultdotxbe · 5th August 2006, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Horatius

I'm not a hunter, and have never fired a shotgun, but what I kept wondering about while I watched that video was, if the penetration really is so weak, how does anyone ever actually kill a bird with these things? Anyone more experienced in shooting want to address this issue? At what range do you usually shoot small animals, and whatnot?

it also depends on the shells, shotguns essentially shoot a bunch of little BBs, but depending on the shells used some will keep the BBs in a tight pack, others will have them spread out, it depends if you want to be effective at close range or long range, or against big game or small game

Big Les · 7th May 2007, 05:25 PM

I know this is a necropost, but I found this backyard ballistics test that is rather more scientifically conducted, and (naturally) comes to the opposite conclusion to Alex "Blaring Facets" Jones. But one that makes perfect (even common) sense. I too noticed his botched high shot, interpreted as "evidence".

What a maroon.

Arkan_Wolfshade · 7th May 2007, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Big Les

I know this is a necropost, but I found this backyard ballistics test that is rather more scientifically conducted, and (naturally) comes to the opposite conclusion to Alex "Blaring Facets" Jones. But one that makes perfect (even common) sense. I too noticed his botched high shot, interpreted as "evidence".

What a maroon.

That's a nice write-up on that page. Though, I think they were using the Cheney accident as a convenient excuse to go shoot up some random grocery purchases

skepticalcriticalguy · 8th May 2007, 01:57 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

One of my old college roomates is now one of Cheney's Secret Service agents and was with him that day. I can assure you it was due to an accident, but of course my personal connection to the case probably automatically makes me suspect in the CT'er mind.

What's his name? I'd like to interview him for an article.

skepticalcriticalguy · 8th May 2007, 02:04 AM

Quote:

There's a response up on his site. Did you send this?

Quote:
You do realize that Alex Jones is a conspiracy nut nut who thinks the Jews did 9/11 and not a ballistics expert, yes?

When has Alex Jones said the Jews did 9/11?

gumboot · 8th May 2007, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

One of my old college roomates is now one of Cheney's Secret Service agents and was with him that day. I can assure you it was due to an accident, but of course my personal connection to the case probably automatically makes me suspect in the CT'er mind.

He wasn't around on 9/11 was he? Boy that would be a good explanation to get as far as all the shoot-down, Mineta, Richard Clarke garbage.

-Gumboot

skepticalcriticalguy · 8th May 2007, 02:31 AM

Originally Posted by gumboot

He wasn't around on 9/11 was he? Boy that would be a good explanation to get as far as all the shoot-down, Mineta, Richard Clarke garbage.

-Gumboot

Richard Clarke's garbage? What, the immediate accusations that it was Bin Laden? And his contacting the media immediately with his Bin Laden hypothesis? Garbage, indeed. MOLE garbage.

gumboot · 8th May 2007, 02:37 AM

Originally Posted by skepticalcriticalguy

Richard Clarke's garbage? What, the immediate accusations that it was Bin Laden? And his contacting the media immediately with his Bin Laden hypothesis? Garbage, indeed. MOLE garbage.

You misread my post. The garbage collectively relates to Mineta, the shoot-down order, and Richard Clarke.

There are a number of discrepancies between these and other sources, and 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists seem to think they're significant. The "garbage" is the conclusions they draw from these discrepancies.

-Gumboot

skepticalcriticalguy · 8th May 2007, 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by gumboot

You misread my post. The garbage collectively relates to Mineta, the shoot-down order, and Richard Clarke.

There are a number of discrepancies between these and other sources, and 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists seem to think they're significant. The "garbage" is the conclusions they draw from these discrepancies.

-Gumboot

OK, got it. I did misread.

But Clarke is still a mole. He is the one who started the Bin Laden train.

The Doc · 8th May 2007, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by skepticalcriticalguy

OK, got it. I did misread.

But Clarke is still a mole. He is the one who started the Bin Laden train.

Several terrorism experts were interviewed on national TV before the collapse of either tower. A majority said the attacks show several al Qaeda trademarks and that Bin Laden was likely responsible.

Liszt · 8th May 2007, 05:57 AM

Here´s Ace of Seven´s pearl of wisdom (again)

Quote:
You do realize that Alex Jones is a conspiracy nut nut who thinks the Jews did 9/11 and not a ballistics expert, yes?

No, he claims the NWO did it. If a CTist had made such a simplistic mistake, he would have been torn apart. Not to mention that this "mistake" ´paints Jones as a rasict (he is, of course, merely an idiot).

Liszt, please review your membership agreement regarding civility; do not personalize things by offering insults. Attack the argument and not the person. I have edited and removed the inappropriate remarks, even though the member is not active in this thread at this time.

Posted By:jmercer

Myriad · 8th May 2007, 06:17 AM

Yes, and let's not have any of your high jinks, monkeyshines, or shenanigans either.

And get off my lawn!!

Respectfully,
Myriad

Big Les · 8th May 2007, 07:46 AM

Yeah, you rube! You maroon!

PS I resurrected this thread, Liszt - Ace_of_sevens originally posted 9 months ago.

Liszt · 8th May 2007, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Big Les

Yeah, you rube! You maroon!

PS I resurrected this thread, Liszt - Ace_of_sevens originally posted 9 months ago.

Thanks. It is a shame, there could have been a hullabaloo if he was still around.

jmercer · 8th May 2007, 08:12 AM

Everyone - please keep in mind that the CT sub-forum is currently under a much more stringent interpretation of the membership agreement at this time. Please read the sticky in this sub-forum for details.

Thanks.

Posted By:jmercer

4th August 2006, 11:08 AM	#1
Ace_of_Sevens Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 225	Cheney hunting accident conspiracy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=721Jy6XYtMg Andrew Sullivan used this as his You Tube of the day. I e-mailed him about the dubious authorship, but my extertise on shotgun ballistics is limited to a paper I wrote in an AP Physics class in high school. I don't really know enough to properly debunk it. Can anyone weigh in? here's Sully site: http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/
Ace_of_Sevens Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 225

4th August 2006, 11:25 AM	#2
Axenos Hedgehog Mahout Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Held Prisoner By Sheepling Central Command Posts: 3,314	Now there are 10 minutes of my life I wish I had back. I am no ballistics expert, but I grew up hunting in WV and had shotguns all my life. As he says the load goes "All around his target, up and over" I just wanted to laugh. Yes, pellet groups expand as they travel... but his description just tells me he was shooting high. You would also need the shotgun, as it has been my personal experience that all shotguns tend to shoot differently. I had a shotgun once that could keep a dinner plate sized pattern at 25 yards and believe me it would have penetrated your skin had I hit you. There are several more things that would be needed to make that a valid test... too many for me to list here. In my humble opinion it's just silly publicity... some dude on the conspiracy bandwagon.
	__________________ "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark Twain. Go Hedgehog!

4th August 2006, 11:26 AM	#3
Mid Muse Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 752	There's a response up on his site. Did you send this? Quote: You do realize that Alex Jones is a conspiracy nut nut who thinks the Jews did 9/11 and not a ballistics expert, yes?
Mid Muse Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 752

4th August 2006, 11:28 AM	#4
Ace_of_Sevens Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 225	Yeah. That was me.
Ace_of_Sevens Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 225

4th August 2006, 11:46 AM	#5
Mid Muse Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 752
Mid Muse Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 752

4th August 2006, 12:50 PM	#6
Arkan_Wolfshade Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Making Mytheon come to life Posts: 7,158	sigh He shouldn't have entered in to a field of knowledge of which I am quite familiar: Jones' claim after the first round: 100 bb's in the load, 50 hit the target fact: there are ~345 7 1/2 size pellets in 1 oz of shot. This means that there are ~258 pellets in 3/4 of an oz of 7 1/2 shot. http://www.shotgunworld.com/amm.html Looking here http://www.angelfire.com/tx/ShotGun/ , under the Pattern section you can see that for cylindar (no choke, which was Jones' first shot) you can expect to retain 25-35% of the shot within the kill circle at 40 yards. This equates to 64-90 pellets hitting the target. 40 yards is further out than Cheney was, iirc. I believe Cheney was at ~30 yrds. 2nd round: if this is truly using the "modified" level of choke, we can expect 45-55% of shot to be within the 30" circle at 40 yards. This comes out to 116-141 pellets. I'm not even going to comment on the "soft rubber" kickboxing dummy, beyond saying that the claim that its material is "very similar to human skin" is crap. Per http://www.winchester.com/products/c...8H7&bn=1&use=6, we also see that (and this is just a standard load, I do not know if Cheney was using hand-loads or not) a 2 3/4" 28ga 3/4 oz shot shell will have ~1205 fps at the muzzle. Jones' pattern complaint. He's wrong. Consider Quote: Good to 35 Yards. It surprises many shooters that the 28-gauge delivers a consistent pattern out to 35 yards. On a percentage basis, the 28-gauge will put as much of its pattern into a 30-inch circle at 35 yards as a 12- or 20-gauge will. This makes the 28-gauge ideal for small-game hunting within that distance. http://www.progressivefarmer.com/far...112682,00.html http://www.angelfire.com/tx/ShotGun/ Pattern section as mentioned above http://www.shotgunworld.com/amm.html Typical Shot Spread Per Choke Choke....Yards .........10.....15......20......25......30......35 ......40......45......50 Full.....10"....15".....20".....25".....30".....35 ".....40".....45".....50" Mod......15"....20".....25".....30".....35".....40 ".....45".....50" I/C......20"....25".....30".....35".....40".....45". ....50" Cylinder.25"....30".....35".....40".....45".....50 " Dummy, chicken & watermelon: Jones never clarifies which choked barrel he is using. He could well be using the cylindar choke, which has a much larger spread than the modified choke. Additionally, it is clearly windy. 7 1/2 size shot is only .095" in diameter, and is quite vulnerable to wind drift. This will affect the patterns observed upon the target.
	__________________ Amy: You should try homeopathic medicine, Bender. Try some zinc. Bender: I am forty percent zinc. Amy: Then take some echinacea, or St. John's Wort. Professor: Or a big fat placebo. It's all the same crap.

4th August 2006, 06:59 PM	#7
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 23,599	One of my old college roomates is now one of Cheney's Secret Service agents and was with him that day. I can assure you it was due to an accident, but of course my personal connection to the case probably automatically makes me suspect in the CT'er mind.
	__________________ "My opinion is not uninformed there are just many things I have no clue about." -atavisms "Iran DOES have the right and good reason to attack Israel." -parky76

4th August 2006, 07:09 PM	#8
defaultdotxbe Drunken Shikigami Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Dark Side of the Sun Posts: 6,466	why would you need a conspiracy to shoot someone in the face with a shotgun? isnt that something you just go and do?

4th August 2006, 08:40 PM	#9
gumboot Norad Ninja Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 16,396	Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe why would you need a conspiracy to shoot someone in the face with a shotgun? isnt that something you just go and do? No, the evil gubmint conspirat0rs are alien drones, telepathically controlled by the Queen deep inside the hive onboard the mothership orbiting the earth. Hence for one drone to act, in actuality the entire hive has conspired to act. Ergo, conspiracy. When Bush goes to the bathroom... it's a conspiracy. -Andrew
gumboot Norad Ninja Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 16,396	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. "My see-saw analogy renders any need for "calculations" moot." - Lyte Trip

4th August 2006, 09:20 PM	#10
kevin Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,666	Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe why would you need a conspiracy to shoot someone in the face with a shotgun? isnt that something you just go and do? and then to screw it up and let the guy live. What kind of retard plans these things?
kevin Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,666	__________________ Long story short, if you wanna get famous, it helps if you're taking a dump. -- RealityBites

4th August 2006, 09:22 PM	#11
defaultdotxbe Drunken Shikigami Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Dark Side of the Sun Posts: 6,466	Originally Posted by kevin and then to screw it up and let the guy live. What kind of retard plans these things? probably the beaurocracy, he had to get approval from all his co-conspirators to finish the job with a second shot, and by the time he got the OK the guy was already in the ambulance on the hospital

4th August 2006, 11:07 PM	#12
Azure Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Alberta Posts: 2,538	I seriously fail to understand how the shooting can be made a conspiracy. Is Jones saying that Cheney "tried" to shoot his hunting buddy?

4th August 2006, 11:28 PM	#13
Regnad Kcin Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The ol' Same place Posts: 4,729	Well, I'll give it a shot. (Thanks, I'll be here all week.) The shooting itself is not a conspiracy. However, the rationale behind an intentional shooting made to appear as an accident might be. And the delay, including the unusual particulars on how the story was reported, could add to the idea. In a CTer's mind, that is.
	__________________ My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.

4th August 2006, 11:29 PM	#14
Azure Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Alberta Posts: 2,538	Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin Well, I'll give it a shot. (Thanks, I'll be here all week.) The shooting itself is not a conspiracy. However, the rationale behind an intentional shooting made to appear as an accident might be. And the delay, including the unusual particulars on how the story was reported, could add to the idea. In a CTer's mind, that is. Thanks. At least I can try to understand where the CTer's are coming from. Happy Birthday, btw.

5th August 2006, 09:34 AM	#15
Ladewig Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 8,560	Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin Well, I'll give it a shot. (Thanks, I'll be here all week.) The shooting itself is not a conspiracy. However, the rationale behind an intentional shooting made to appear as an accident might be. And the delay, including the unusual particulars on how the story was reported, could add to the idea. In a CTer's mind, that is. I've never considered myself a CTer, but I suspect the people around Cheney conspired after the accidental shooting to hide Cheney's blood alcohol level from the local police.

5th August 2006, 10:06 AM	#16
kevin Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,666	Originally Posted by Ladewig I've never considered myself a CTer, but I suspect the people around Cheney conspired after the accidental shooting to hide Cheney's blood alcohol level from the local police. These are the kind of conspiracies I think are more realistic. Covering up things to make yourself look better, involving one or two people. Once the conspiracy spreads more than about 5 people it's going to collapse.
kevin Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,666	__________________ Long story short, if you wanna get famous, it helps if you're taking a dump. -- RealityBites

5th August 2006, 10:28 AM	#17
Polaris Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,155	Originally Posted by Ladewig I've never considered myself a CTer, but I suspect the people around Cheney conspired after the accidental shooting to hide Cheney's blood alcohol level from the local police. That's been my take on it too - and to delay in order to figure out how best to spin it. What honks me off is that if any of us shot someone, albeit accidentally, we wouldn't have the luxury of waiting a few days before going to the police and not be charged with something.
Polaris Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,155

5th August 2006, 10:49 AM	#18
jimtron Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,266	Originally Posted by Ladewig I've never considered myself a CTer, but I suspect the people around Cheney conspired after the accidental shooting to hide Cheney's blood alcohol level from the local police. IIRC there were conflicting reports about whether there had been drinking or not. I think at one point someone said there was no drinking, and later someone said Cheney had had a drink.
	__________________

5th August 2006, 11:34 AM	#19
ktesibios Worthless Aging Hippie Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,190	So what we've got here appears to be Dick Cheney conspiring to make himself look like an utter dickweed. And it worked like a charm.
	__________________ Vespasian's banquets were very old-fashioned-the waitresses kept their clothes on and he never poisoned the food. -Marcus Didius Falco

5th August 2006, 12:08 PM	#20
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada Posts: 11,172	I'm not a hunter, and have never fired a shotgun, but what I kept wondering about while I watched that video was, if the penetration really is so weak, how does anyone ever actually kill a bird with these things? Anyone more experienced in shooting want to address this issue? At what range do you usually shoot small animals, and whatnot?

5th August 2006, 05:16 PM	#21
Polaris Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,155	Originally Posted by Horatius I'm not a hunter, and have never fired a shotgun, but what I kept wondering about while I watched that video was, if the penetration really is so weak, how does anyone ever actually kill a bird with these things? Anyone more experienced in shooting want to address this issue? At what range do you usually shoot small animals, and whatnot? The shock alone, and the scale of the impact of the shot is greater for a bird (those things die from running into windows, after all).
Polaris Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,155

5th August 2006, 05:37 PM	#22
jimtron Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,266	From The Smoking Gun: Quote: Katharine Armstrong, who has given conflicting accounts of whether alcohol was consumed on the day of the hunt, wrote in her February 15 statement that, "to the best of my knowledge there was no alcohol involved." Willeford stated that "there was no alcohol consumed during the afternoon of the hunt in the field," though she did have a glass of wine with lunch several hours earlier. In a February 15 Fox News interview, Cheney said that he consumed a beer with his lunch. In a same-day supplement to her initial February 15 statement, Sarita Armstrong Hixon reported that, "to my knowledge none of the members of the shooting group...consumed any alcoholic beverages." Maybe Cheney's gun wasn't the only thing that was loaded?
	__________________

5th August 2006, 05:43 PM	#23
Arkan_Wolfshade Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Making Mytheon come to life Posts: 7,158	Originally Posted by Horatius I'm not a hunter, and have never fired a shotgun, but what I kept wondering about while I watched that video was, if the penetration really is so weak, how does anyone ever actually kill a bird with these things? Anyone more experienced in shooting want to address this issue? At what range do you usually shoot small animals, and whatnot? A 28 gauge should be effective on quail, and the like, out to about 30 yrds.
	__________________ Amy: You should try homeopathic medicine, Bender. Try some zinc. Bender: I am forty percent zinc. Amy: Then take some echinacea, or St. John's Wort. Professor: Or a big fat placebo. It's all the same crap.

5th August 2006, 05:49 PM	#24
defaultdotxbe Drunken Shikigami Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Dark Side of the Sun Posts: 6,466	Originally Posted by Horatius I'm not a hunter, and have never fired a shotgun, but what I kept wondering about while I watched that video was, if the penetration really is so weak, how does anyone ever actually kill a bird with these things? Anyone more experienced in shooting want to address this issue? At what range do you usually shoot small animals, and whatnot? it also depends on the shells, shotguns essentially shoot a bunch of little BBs, but depending on the shells used some will keep the BBs in a tight pack, others will have them spread out, it depends if you want to be effective at close range or long range, or against big game or small game

7th May 2007, 05:25 PM	#25
Big Les Not so much a medium as a large Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,644	I know this is a necropost, but I found this backyard ballistics test that is rather more scientifically conducted, and (naturally) comes to the opposite conclusion to Alex "Blaring Facets" Jones. But one that makes perfect (even common) sense. I too noticed his botched high shot, interpreted as "evidence". What a maroon.
	__________________ "One of the fundamental freedoms is to write what you like, including nonsense: another, which I am exercising, is to denounce it." -Robert Raikes bshistorian.wordpress.com

7th May 2007, 07:50 PM	#26
Arkan_Wolfshade Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Making Mytheon come to life Posts: 7,158	Originally Posted by Big Les I know this is a necropost, but I found this backyard ballistics test that is rather more scientifically conducted, and (naturally) comes to the opposite conclusion to Alex "Blaring Facets" Jones. But one that makes perfect (even common) sense. I too noticed his botched high shot, interpreted as "evidence". What a maroon. That's a nice write-up on that page. Though, I think they were using the Cheney accident as a convenient excuse to go shoot up some random grocery purchases
	__________________ Amy: You should try homeopathic medicine, Bender. Try some zinc. Bender: I am forty percent zinc. Amy: Then take some echinacea, or St. John's Wort. Professor: Or a big fat placebo. It's all the same crap.

8th May 2007, 01:57 AM	#27
skepticalcriticalguy Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,319	Originally Posted by WildCat One of my old college roomates is now one of Cheney's Secret Service agents and was with him that day. I can assure you it was due to an accident, but of course my personal connection to the case probably automatically makes me suspect in the CT'er mind. What's his name? I'd like to interview him for an article.

8th May 2007, 02:04 AM	#28
skepticalcriticalguy Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,319	Quote: There's a response up on his site. Did you send this? Quote: You do realize that Alex Jones is a conspiracy nut nut who thinks the Jews did 9/11 and not a ballistics expert, yes? When has Alex Jones said the Jews did 9/11?

8th May 2007, 02:29 AM	#29
gumboot Norad Ninja Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 16,396	Originally Posted by WildCat One of my old college roomates is now one of Cheney's Secret Service agents and was with him that day. I can assure you it was due to an accident, but of course my personal connection to the case probably automatically makes me suspect in the CT'er mind. He wasn't around on 9/11 was he? Boy that would be a good explanation to get as far as all the shoot-down, Mineta, Richard Clarke garbage. -Gumboot
gumboot Norad Ninja Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 16,396	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. "My see-saw analogy renders any need for "calculations" moot." - Lyte Trip

8th May 2007, 02:31 AM	#30
skepticalcriticalguy Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,319	Originally Posted by gumboot He wasn't around on 9/11 was he? Boy that would be a good explanation to get as far as all the shoot-down, Mineta, Richard Clarke garbage. -Gumboot Richard Clarke's garbage? What, the immediate accusations that it was Bin Laden? And his contacting the media immediately with his Bin Laden hypothesis? Garbage, indeed. MOLE garbage.

8th May 2007, 02:37 AM	#31
gumboot Norad Ninja Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 16,396	Originally Posted by skepticalcriticalguy Richard Clarke's garbage? What, the immediate accusations that it was Bin Laden? And his contacting the media immediately with his Bin Laden hypothesis? Garbage, indeed. MOLE garbage. You misread my post. The garbage collectively relates to Mineta, the shoot-down order, and Richard Clarke. There are a number of discrepancies between these and other sources, and 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists seem to think they're significant. The "garbage" is the conclusions they draw from these discrepancies. -Gumboot
gumboot Norad Ninja Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 16,396	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. "My see-saw analogy renders any need for "calculations" moot." - Lyte Trip

8th May 2007, 02:42 AM	#32
skepticalcriticalguy Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,319	Originally Posted by gumboot You misread my post. The garbage collectively relates to Mineta, the shoot-down order, and Richard Clarke. There are a number of discrepancies between these and other sources, and 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists seem to think they're significant. The "garbage" is the conclusions they draw from these discrepancies. -Gumboot OK, got it. I did misread. But Clarke is still a mole. He is the one who started the Bin Laden train.

8th May 2007, 04:29 AM	#33
The Doc Curing Stupidity Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,154	Originally Posted by skepticalcriticalguy OK, got it. I did misread. But Clarke is still a mole. He is the one who started the Bin Laden train. Several terrorism experts were interviewed on national TV before the collapse of either tower. A majority said the attacks show several al Qaeda trademarks and that Bin Laden was likely responsible.
	__________________ Author - 9/11 Mysteries Viewer's Guide http://www.911mysteriesguide.com Creator - "Screw 9/11 Mysteries" http://video.google.com.au/videoplay...24912447824934

8th May 2007, 06:17 AM	#35
Myriad Hyperthetical Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,616	Yes, and let's not have any of your high jinks, monkeyshines, or shenanigans either. And get off my lawn!! Respectfully, Myriad
	__________________ Never use a tool that's more intelligent than you are. Last edited by jmercer; 8th May 2007 at 08:11 AM. Reason: Edited to remove quote for consistency with post #34's changes.

8th May 2007, 07:46 AM	#36
Big Les Not so much a medium as a large Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,644	Yeah, you rube! You maroon! PS I resurrected this thread, Liszt - Ace_of_sevens originally posted 9 months ago.
	__________________ "One of the fundamental freedoms is to write what you like, including nonsense: another, which I am exercising, is to denounce it." -Robert Raikes bshistorian.wordpress.com