From Free Country to Police State

[Oberdan]

Folks,

Conspiracy Theories can be very wild, far fetched, and some more down to earth and seem feasable. No matter which end of the spectrum, when you actually see one come true, it's makes ice flow through the veins.

My Conspiracy Theory: The United States is slowly being turned into a Police State where the individual has little to no rights and our freedom is gone. The mentality that it can't happen in our country isn't enough. A mentality won't secrure the hard won rights our ancestors bled and died for.

These rights have been under attack for a long time. Now they have been losing, even as recent as last year. And the years coming up aren't going to be any better. Any excuse is used. And no, this isn't about phone taps for the NSA, though it is a side effect.

First, your identity. Who you are. We learned that National ID Cards doesn;t prevent terrorisim or prevent crimes against humanity. Syria uses National ID Cards. They are a haven for terrorists. China has a National ID Card system. So does Vietnam. North and South. Each of these countries control their people with iron fists. Everywhere people go, the Government can track them because they need their National ID's for most anything.

This can't happen in America? Think again. It's all ready happened and is law. Google this: Real ID Act of 2005

This law won't be enforced until 2008. Quite a few months before the Presidential vote. Since voting is an official Federal function, unless you have this National ID Card, you can't vote. And it's coming out of your pocket, the price of getting one. Unfunded Federal Mandates all for you.

But... but.... even if it's as bad as they say on RealNightmare.org and unrealid.com, then we are still not really a Police State. In a Police State, the Government snatches land from people at their discretion for other richer, private owners who suck up to the regime.

That can't, for sure, can't no way, no how, happen in America. Our Eminent Domain laws make sure people are compensated when moved, much more than the value, and only for public works, like highways and roads.

Ummmm bad news. It's happened all ready, and the Supreme Court upheld the action that snatched an entire neighborhood for a privately owned company and that company is charging the residents serious back rent bucks for the 5 years it took to get to the supreme court. Kelo vs New London. Google that too. That was just last year, and now other private companies can now snatch YOUR land. And charge you for it.

So now we have it. Your rights to privacy and your right to own land. Gone all ready.

Oh hey, Oberdan, you're nuts. You act like this is turning into a police state where authorities can do anything they want. You feeling ok?

Sure, I'm feeling as ok as Dudley Hiibel. Google his name and read for yourself what he went through. Out of the several cases at papersplease.org there was only one victory. Just one. Even so, Deborah Davis went through hell after her arrest because she didn't show her 'papers'. She was only riding a public bus after all, and doing nothing but going to work.

The Conspiracy Theory of mine puts chills down my back. I'm seeing more and more reasons why the theory is going to be sudden fact. And we'll be spoon fed by the media with their reasoning how we're safer.

As safe as the Syrians, Chinese and Veitnamese, I suppose?

[bob_kark]

I want to be certain that I understand your claim. Because of proposed National ID cards and Eminent Domain laws, you believe that the United States is becoming a police state? Do you have any further evidence you would care to share to support your theory?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

There's only one problem with your conspiracy theory. It doesn't require a conspiracy for it to happen. Consider Hanlon's Razor: Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice. In this case, you don't need to assume malice of a shadow group of power players when the stupidity of the general populous will suffice.

[defaultdotxbe]

a federal ID system doesnt seem all that bad to me, i assume it would replace the 50 state-run ID programs currently active in the country

and for the eminent domain laws, essentially youve cited one extreme example, is thos sort of action ebcoming commonplace? i assume the supreme court ruling merely upheld eminent domain, and then the company decided to charge back rent, this would likely be fought a separate civil case, what is the status of those proceedings?

[KingMerv00]

You brought up Kelo v. The City of New London. Here is an excerpt from that case:

Quote:

We emphasize that nothing in our opinion precludes any State from placing further restrictions on its exercise of the takings power. Indeed, many States already impose “public use” requirements that are stricter than the federal baseline. Some of these requirements have been established as a matter of constitutional law, while others are expressed in state eminent domain statutes that carefully limit the grounds upon which takings may be exercised.

Quote:

(Ref. Kelo v. The City of New London, 125 S. Ct. at 2668)

A few things of note:

1) The Kelo case was decided on the trial level in state court and was a state issue. It wasn't the federal government that took the land. "King George" was not involved.

2) The land was to be developed by a private planning company but they were not to retain possesion. It is possible that the company overstepped their rights in the past few months but I doubt it. I have not kept up with the developments.

3) The Supreme Court (part of the federal government) is in favor of emminent domain controls. The legislature just needs to create them. Some states already have.

4) New London was in dire economic trouble. The emminent domain procedings were a last ditch effort to revitalize the community. It wasn't the first time that a govenmental body seized land for overall economic development so precedent was established.

Do yourself a favor. Next time you see a court case that outrages you, actually read the court opinion. The reasoning in most court opinions is actually quite good. It is never as bad as the media would have you believe.

[T.A.M.]

I get the impression, that if you were a convict, a child molester, or the like, a National ID Card might be a bad thing.

I am unsure how, if you are a good, honest, LAW ABIDING citizen, the Nationa ID Card is a bad thing. I know little about, nor have I given it much thought. Please enlighten me on how such a card will hurt the average law abiding American?

[bjb]

Here in Orange County, CA, we just outlawed the use of eminent domain to seize private property for use by another private party. We're not the only ones who are fighting against this:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...&feed=rss.news

Citizens can make this action illegal for their local governments, which obviates the decision of the federal courts. The supreme court says it's ok for local govenments to do this but if the local government has it's own laws against it, then it won't happen.

I don't completely agree with the original post because every so often, we do wise up and fight against the Big Brother police state mentality. I do agree with the idea that fighting is necessary to protect ourselves from our own government. Like Arkan Wolfshade said, there's no conspiracy theory here, it's just the tendency of big government to get even bigger.

[gumboot]

I'm not an American... so the conversion of the USA into a police state doesn't really excite me much...

But...

One thing I have noticed with this line of reasoning, and with the more fanciful NWO neocon illuminati whatever CT... there is always the claim "it has been happening for a long time" and then only very recent examples are shown. For example a couple of very recent events...

I can't see how people can believe the evolution of a "police state" has been happening for a long time! Over the last 150 years the governments of the western world have consistantly passed laws making their societies more and more free. Sure, random laws pop up now and then that go against the trend (think prohibition), but the overall trends, across the entire western world, is very clearly in one direction.

Secondly, I find it odd that these two examples would be produced as evidence of a "police state". Okay, national ID cards, I can see how that could work as a police state. But the property stuff? Specifically involving commercial companies? How is that evidence of a police state?

And yet you ignore the government spying on the population... which is the very DEFINITION of a police state. Odd.

Final question... what exactly is intended to appear on these national ID cards, and what is their purpose?

We have no national ID system whatsoever - we do not have social security numbers, etc...

I am wondering what a US national ID card would consist of (and perhaps what the State ones currently consist of), what their use would be, and how they would compare to the "Smart Cards" I understand are planned for use in Europe (unless that idea was dropped...).

-Andrew

[defaultdotxbe]

i would imagine the national ID card system wouldnt be much different than the existing state ID card systems

in whcih im all for it, standardized antional ID and driver's liscenses would make ID checking for store clerks (when purchasing alcohol and tobacco) much easier

it would be much easier to train anyone (especially law enforcement officers) to spot fakes too


living in illinois, i could go to any store with a horrendously fake florida ID card and get away with it, since 95% of people in IL have never seen a FL ID, so they have no idea what its supposed to (or not supposed to) look like

[kevin]

Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe

a federal ID system doesnt seem all that bad to me, i assume it would replace the 50 state-run ID programs currently active in the country

What's wrong with the state-run id programs? Additionally, ID's in the US are not required. It is possible to live without one (you can even fly without one).

Identification in no way provides additional security. In many ways it can reduce security.

The problem I have with a federal ID is it makes abuse of powers easier. It should be difficult for the gov't to find and locate innocent people.

Quote:

and for the eminent domain laws, essentially youve cited one extreme example, is thos sort of action ebcoming commonplace?

I do think eminent domain laws are being abused. I also think this is being addressed on a state level.

Here's an example of abuse: I was kicked out an apartment building when the city eminent domained the building. Once the city had possession they turned around and sold it to a developer to tear it down and build a privately building there. Completely unfair to the owner of building to negotiate with the developers directly instead using the gov't to get themselves a better deal.

After the Supreme Court decisions upholding this kind of taking (i.e. taking then immediately reselling) several states have been passing laws or state constitutional amendments to stop the practice.

[defaultdotxbe]

Quote:

Additionally, ID's in the US are not required

not by federal law, no, but more and more municipal laws are requiring them, in my town if a cop stops you on the street he can arrest you as a vagrant if you dont have ID

and fearing abuse isnt always a good reason not to do something

what i envision for a national ID program is essentially what the states have now, but by takign it out of the states hands we standardize the cards (read my previosu posts for a few benefits of that) and allow the states to concentrate on more important matters, like education

and better education is the best defense of abuse of govt power IMO

[Senor_Pointy]

Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe

...and better education is the best defense of abuse of govt power IMO

I think few people would disagree that better education is the best defense against any kind of abuse.

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by Senor_Pointy

I think few people would disagree that better education is the best defense against any kind of abuse.

Except physical abuse, for which the best defense is a big pointy stick...

-Andrew

[Year Zero]

Every time I have flown in and outside of the US since 9-11 I have been asked for ID along with the boarding pass. I don't see that as evidence of a CT of course, I am just correcting the claim that you don't need ID in the US.

[Oberdan]

Ok, lets look at the Real ID Law itself.

And, some very nice replies. Actual conversation and good points from everyone, against or for.

The url to the actual law I can't post till the count hits 15 or more, will do so when it does.

That is to the Government Printing Office of Congressional Public Laws. The law is huge and long, as there are other parts unrelated to Real ID. And in this post, I am focusing on Real ID, I will get to the land grabs later. And the time line when things started to go to the potty for when I said "A long time now."

Someone asked what the Real ID Will have on it. I cut and pasted directly, leaving out some rather large chunks as it's so huge to post. But if you go to the url I will eventually provide, you'll be able to scroll down to almost the bottom and read it in it's entirety.

-----------------

(a) Minimum Standards for Federal Use.--
(1) <<NOTE: Effective date.>> In general.--Beginning 3 years
after the date of the enactment of this division, a Federal
agency may not accept, for any official purpose, a driver's
license or identification card issued by a State to any person
unless the State is meeting the requirements of this section.
(b) Minimum Document Requirements.--To meet the requirements of this
section, a State shall include, at a minimum, the following information
and features on each driver's license and identification card issued to
a person by the State:
(1) The person's full legal name.
(2) The person's date of birth.
(3) The person's gender.
(4) The person's driver's license or identification card
number.
(5) A digital photograph of the person.
(6) The person's address of principle residence.
(7) The person's signature.
(8) Physical security features designed to prevent
tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for
fraudulent purposes.
(9) A common machine-readable technology, with defined
minimum data elements.

(c) Minimum Issuance Standards.--
(1) In general.--To meet the requirements of this section, a
State shall require, at a minimum, presentation and verification
of the following information before issuing a driver's license
or identification card to a person:

[[Page 119 STAT. 313]]
------------

Ok, most of that seems pretty standard and mostly harmless. (Douglas Adams fans here can smile) But then, we see number 9, the start of the ? over what is common machine readable technology. If it was supposed to be a barcode vs a magnetic strip, it would say so. Why a blanket statement for reading technology? Here's the other part of the law that brings this into the light.

--------------

(3) Verification of documents.--To meet the requirements of
this section, a State shall implement the following procedures:
(A) Before issuing a driver's license or
identification card to a person, the State shall verify,
with the issuing agency, the issuance, validity, and
completeness of each document required to be presented
by the person under paragraph (1) or (2).
(B) The State shall not accept any foreign document,
other than an official passport, to satisfy a
requirement of paragraph (1) or (2).
(C) <<NOTE: Deadline. Memorandum.>> Not later than
September 11, 2005, the State shall enter into a
memorandum of understanding with the Secretary of
Homeland Security to routinely utilize the automated
system known as Systematic Alien Verification for
Entitlements, as provided for by section 404 of the
Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility
Act of 1996 (110 Stat. 3009-664), to verify the legal
presence status of a person, other than a United States
citizen, applying for a driver's license or
identification card.

(1) Employ technology to capture digital images of identity
source documents so that the images can be retained in
electronic storage in a transferable format.
(2) Retain paper copies of source documents for a minimum of
7 years or images of source documents presented for a minimum of
10 years.
(3) Subject each person applying for a driver's license or
identification card to mandatory facial image capture.
(4) Establish an effective procedure to confirm or verify a
renewing applicant's information.
(5) Confirm with the Social Security Administration a social
security account number presented by a person using the full
social security account number. In the event that a social
security account number is already registered to or associated
with another person to which any State has issued a driver's
license or identification card, the State shall resolve the
discrepancy and take appropriate action.
(6) Refuse to issue a driver's license or identification
card to a person holding a driver's license issued by another
State without confirmation that the person is terminating or has
terminated the driver's license.
(7) Ensure the physical security of locations where drivers'
licenses and identification cards are produced and the security
of document materials and papers from which drivers' licenses
and identification cards are produced.
(8) Subject all persons authorized to manufacture or produce
drivers' licenses and identification cards to appropriate
security clearance requirements.
-------------
Number 1... explains it, does it not? And a magnetic strip and barcode won't retain digital images of your birth certificate... in a transferable format.

So now we have common machine readable technology... and transferable format source identity documents. Am I the only one who has a problem with this? And in another huge section, nobody is immune. Cops, prosecuters and judges have to have their physical addresses ina transferable format... all the criminal element has to do is learn the technology (Currently targeted is RFID chips unless the House reconsiders another way) and suddenly we have dead judges and even undercover cops.

Number 5... do any of you know or understand how convoluted and slow Social Security can be? We have to rely on them to tell them if we can get this ID or not? /shiver

Not just the SSA office. Even your birth certtificate has to be validated by the issuing authority... what of those people who you can't do that with? Various natural disasters make it impossible... and those who immigrated from other countries and are naturalized ar ein deep doo doo. They won't accept foriegn documents, only current passports. What about that retired Isrish Immigrant who was naturalized 30 years ago? His passport is way expired.

It's not enough anymore to simply listen to an official or represenative about this law, they have their own ideas what it really is, which is frightening that the three reps I heard from in Florida say three different things. I went and found the law as it's published. And read it. And will post the url here as soon as my posts get over 15.

The custom of showing ID at airports came about in July of 1996, in the wake of the TWA flight 800 disaster. Faulty fuel tank insulation caused TWA 800 to explode over Long Island Sound. Before we knew that, there was concern that terrorists had blown up the plane. According to former terrorism czar Richard Clarke's book, the ID requirement was instituted as a temporary measure so that then-President Clinton had something to announce to the families of the victims when he met with them.

9/11 of 2001 made it a mandatory measure. 1996 was 10 years ago from now. Seems like a little bit of a long time to me. And that is just -this- part of the Conspiracy. Any great conspiracy starts with a true event that gives it focus for an outcome that would have been impossible without it.

And there is so much more, but this post is long enough. Will be back tomorrow to address the other questions and replies.

[bob_kark]

I understand your concern about possible identity theft, but what does this have to do with the US becoming a Police State?

[defaultdotxbe]

i dont see where it says the images of the source documents are to be kept on the ID itself, just they they should be stored in a transferable format, this could be on a large central database somewhere

and once again, these things exist, just not all in one place, ever hospital keeps records of births, the social security office keeps records of all SSNs given out


all the convolutedness of confirming the info, believe me, its already in place an dhas been for years

go to the the dept of moto vehicles and ask what you need to get a photo ID if you dont have one, theyll tell you social security card and birth certificate, go to the social security office and ask what you need to get a social security card, theyll tell you a photo ID and birth certificate, go to the hospital you were born at and ask for your birth certificate, they need your social security number

nothing in this law is new, its just a new way of giving people the same run-around

[rwguinn]

Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe

not by federal law, no, but more and more municipal laws are requiring them, in my town if a cop stops you on the street he can arrest you as a vagrant if you dont have ID

and fearing abuse isnt always a good reason not to do something

what i envision for a national ID program is essentially what the states have now, but by takign it out of the states hands we standardize the cards (read my previosu posts for a few benefits of that) and allow the states to concentrate on more important matters, like education

and better education is the best defense of abuse of govt power IMO

I call shennagans and Recycled Alfalfa.
Vagrancy laws have been declared unconstitutional in the US more years ago than I can remember, in numerous court cases.Something about the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution. .
http://www.answers.com/topic/vagrancy

[defaultdotxbe]

Originally Posted by rwguinn

I call shennagans and Recycled Alfalfa.
Vagrancy laws have been declared unconstitutional in the US more years ago than I can remember, in numerous court cases.Something about the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution. .
http://www.answers.com/topic/vagrancy

one of things about fighting unconstitutional laws is you have to know they were declared unconstitional, vagrancy laws are alive and well in many areas because, well, people are idiots

although they did change the one in my town that said you had to have 10 dollars cash on you at all times (and they only did that about 3 or 4 years ago)

[Pardalis]

Hi Oberdan

Originally Posted by Oberdan

Conspiracy Theories can be very wild, far fetched, and some more down to earth and seem feasable. No matter which end of the spectrum, when you actually see one come true, it's makes ice flow through the veins.

I don't think I've ever seen a major conspiracy beign unravelled, so I've never experienced my blood turning into ice as a result, so I don't really know what you mean. Maybe I'm not paranoid enough...

Quote:

My Conspiracy Theory: The United States is slowly being turned into a Police State where the individual has little to no rights and our freedom is gone.

Well, you are here on the web talking about it, so I guess it's a long way from happening, or you are not as scared as you say...

Quote:

The mentality that it can't happen in our country isn't enough.

Enough for what? Every time I hear a sentence like that, my skin crawls. It's sounds like a false dichotomy.

Quote:

A mentality won't secrure the hard won rights our ancestors bled and died for.

Appeal to emotions.

Quote:

These rights have been under attack for a long time.

How long? And how do you know that?

Quote:

Now they have been losing, even as recent as last year. And the years coming up aren't going to be any better. Any excuse is used. And no, this isn't about phone taps for the NSA, though it is a side effect.

Is it your "gut feeling" or do you have some actual proof?

Quote:

First, your identity. Who you are. We learned that National ID Cards doesn;t prevent terrorisim or prevent crimes against humanity. Syria uses National ID Cards. They are a haven for terrorists. China has a National ID Card system. So does Vietnam. North and South. Each of these countries control their people with iron fists. Everywhere people go, the Government can track them because they need their National ID's for most anything.

Is the use of ID cards specifically used for counter-terrorism? Does it have multiple applications and uses? Why was this implemented in these countries?

Quote:

This can't happen in America?

snip, for space

So now we have it. Your rights to privacy and your right to own land. Gone all ready.

To me, these are specific cases, almost anecdotal. You seem to be jumping to conclusions. There would have to be alot more of these things to systematicly happen to start thinking of a national conspiracy.

Quote:

Oh hey, Oberdan, you're nuts. You act like this is turning into a police state where authorities can do anything they want. You feeling ok?

I always start to worry when posters start talking to themselves.

Quote:

The Conspiracy Theory of mine puts chills down my back. I'm seeing more and more reasons why the theory is going to be sudden fact. And we'll be spoon fed by the media with their reasoning how we're safer.

Of course, especially when you are afflicted with a major confirmation bias.

Quote:

As safe as the Syrians, Chinese and Veitnamese, I suppose?

Move to Canada.

[Scott Haley]

The supreme court of the state of Ohio recently decided that to take private property for private development violates the Ohio state constitution. One point for our side.

[Pardalis]

Originally Posted by Oberdan

So now we have common machine readable technology...

edited for space

As the list you posted says, there a multiple procedures to verify someone's identity, so identity theft would be even more difficult, because there are more filters to circomvent.

Doesn't this has more to do with the technology itself? Isn't it a way to make the paper work easier? If the technology is compatible everywhere, and the info easier to get across, doesn't this avoid problems and time wasting?

Quote:

/shiver

Is there a problem with your air conditioning?

Quote:

Not just the SSA office. Even your birth certtificate has to be validated by the issuing authority... what of those people who you can't do that with? Various natural disasters make it impossible... and those who immigrated from other countries and are naturalized ar ein deep doo doo. They won't accept foriegn documents, only current passports. What about that retired Isrish Immigrant who was naturalized 30 years ago? His passport is way expired.

If I read correctly, I think this is for people who are not US citizens. So your naturalised friend, and your retired Irish immigrant have nothing to worry about.

Quote:

It's not enough anymore to simply listen to an official or represenative about this law, they have their own ideas what it really is, which is frightening that the three reps I heard from in Florida say three different things. I went and found the law as it's published. And read it. And will post the url here as soon as my posts get over 15.

Politicians are renoun to be unreliable sources of information. There are different ways for people to get their information. I trust people know that, if they are really serious in wanting to have their questions answered. There's no conspiracy there.

Quote:

9/11 of 2001 made it a mandatory measure. 1996 was 10 years ago from now. Seems like a little bit of a long time to me. And that is just -this- part of the Conspiracy. Any great conspiracy starts with a true event that gives it focus for an outcome that would have been impossible without it.

Are you referring to 9/11 being an inside job conspiracy?

Geez, the US government is guilty of a conspiracy if they allow the terrorists to come in the country, and they are guilty of a conspiracy when they want to implement more security to prevent terrorist from coming in the country.

So basically, according to your logic, the US will always be guilty of somekind of conspiracy?

[NobbyNobbs]

There have been (and will be many more, I'm sure) many answers to the OP, most of them negative and/or skeptical (of course, hence the forum). Whether I agree with the OP or not, I wanted to point out one thing, regarding the following statements:

Originally Posted by Oberdan

Someone asked what the Real ID Will have on it. I cut and pasted directly, leaving out some rather large chunks as it's so huge to post. But if you go to the url I will eventually provide, you'll be able to scroll down to almost the bottom and read it in it's entirety.

-----------------



It's not enough anymore to simply listen to an official or represenative about this law, they have their own ideas what it really is, which is frightening that the three reps I heard from in Florida say three different things. I went and found the law as it's published. And read it. And will post the url here as soon as my posts get over 15.

I wanted to extend a kudos to Oberdan for this. So many people come on here with theories, and when asked to back them up they use hearsay, obfuscation, and lies. We are constantly asking people to read and learn and present evidence, and I am proud of Oberdan for going directly to the source. He may or may not be interpreting what he reads correctly, he may or may not be putting a spin on it, but by getting it "from the horse's mouth", he is doing much, much more than so many others who present on this forum.

Nice job, Oberdan. Keep it up.

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by Oberdan

Number 1... explains it, does it not? And a magnetic strip and barcode won't retain digital images of your birth certificate... in a transferable format.

Thanks a lot for posting all that, was a really interesting read.

I appreciate your concern, however I think you may be misinterpreting the information.

I don't see any indication that the documents used for issuing of the card would appear on the card itself. I can't see any reason to do so, and as you point out its only purpose would be to aid identity theft.

The measure outlined are pretty much exactly what is already required in New Zealand to get a drivers license.

And New Zealand is certainly not a police state or anything like it.

My only real concern is regarding having an address on the card. I personally don't think this is a good idea. In New Zealand it's a choice, and I chose not to. Firstly, I move around a lot, and don't want to have to get a new ID constantly. Secondly, if someone steals my ID, I don't want them to know where I live (the contra to that is if an honest person finds your lost ID they can't return it to you).

The major difference, of course, is that New Zealand has a very stringent Privacy Act. It is completely illegal for any organisation, government or private, to use any information gathered about you for anything other than the purpose for which it was gathered.

Likewise a form of ID is required for boarding domestic air flights in New Zealand.

-Andrew

[kevin]

Originally Posted by T.A.M.

I get the impression, that if you were a convict, a child molester, or the like, a National ID Card might be a bad thing.

I am unsure how, if you are a good, honest, LAW ABIDING citizen, the Nationa ID Card is a bad thing. I know little about, nor have I given it much thought. Please enlighten me on how such a card will hurt the average law abiding American?

If you're a law abiding citizen then you shouldn't care if the police search your house. daily. On their own whim.

Gov't powers should be kept to a minimum lest those powers be abused.

My opposition to the national id card centers more around the false sense of security it carries with it.

Several of the hijackers had valid, but illegally obtained, driver's licenses. Gate security that trusted an id allowed them through. Too much security relies on id's to bypass actual security. For example, it's possible these days to fly without an id. To do so you're treated to a much more through search than those with id's. In other words the safest people to fly with are the ones without id.

[defaultdotxbe]

well it does sem liek they will be making it more difficult to obtail illegally than a drivers liscense

also, as i stated before, having a standardized national ID would make it easier to train people to spot fakes

the ptoential to abuse power will always exist, whether we have national ID cards or not, i think the final clal on whether it will be a good thing or a bad thing will have to be made when we see how they are actually implenmented and what identifying info is available to who

[kevin]

Originally Posted by Year Zero

Every time I have flown in and outside of the US since 9-11 I have been asked for ID along with the boarding pass. I don't see that as evidence of a CT of course, I am just correcting the claim that you don't need ID in the US.

You do not need an ID to fly in the US. They ask for one, you can refuse to give it.

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,71115-0.html

John Gilmore of the EFF sued to get this requirement removed, but lost the case when the gov't said there was no such requirment. Gilmore than dared several DHS officials to try it. One did, and was successfully able to fly without an id.

Gilmore has tried several times and always failed, but he can also be a bit overboard. The DHS official was a bit more polite.

eta: Gilmore's attempts were prior to (or during) his suit. I'm trying to find out if he has been able to fly id-less since.

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by kevin

If you're a law abiding citizen then you shouldn't care if the police search your house. daily. On their own whim.

Well, that's a bit different. I'd be opposed to that simply because of how damn inconvenient it would be. However I honestly couldn't care less if our ECHELON base in the Wairau Valley is recording every single email I write, every phone call I make, and every website I visit.

Originally Posted by kevin

Gov't powers should be kept to a minimum lest those powers be abused.

Agreed. But it's a balancing act. The oft-repeated phrase "Those who would give up a little liberty for some security deserve neither" is a load on nonsense. There will always be a balance between security and liberty, and you cannot have one 100% unless you 100% exclude the other.

So it's a case of determining a minimum acceptable level of secuity, and granting the government just enough power to maintain that acceptable level. The problem is, the greater the threat, that exists, the greater the level of security required.

Which is, ultimately, why I have no real problem with the west going around and demolishing every nation that poses a threat to us. Because it drastically lowers the required level of secuity, thus the power the government needs to exert at home.

Originally Posted by kevin

My opposition to the national id card centers more around the false sense of security it carries with it.

Agreed completely. There are militant islamic radicals in the west who pose a real threat, who were BORN in the west. National ID cards will not do anything to stop them. But it might let them slip through the net.

-Andrew

[defaultdotxbe]

Originally Posted by gumboot

Which is, ultimately, why I have no real problem with the west going around and demolishing every nation that poses a threat to us. Because it drastically lowers the required level of secuity, thus the power the government needs to exert at home.

-Andrew

the probem there is that in doing so youll probably piss off some other country, so ultimately this wont lower the threat

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe

the probem there is that in doing so youll probably piss off some other country, so ultimately this wont lower the threat

Well yes, that is always the problem.

It's a fine balancing act. Unfortunately I think the lack of unity in the west, and the USA's lack of regard for working within the structure of a unified west, doesn't help things at all.

-Andrew

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Oberdan

The Conspiracy Theory of mine puts chills down my back. I'm seeing more and more reasons why the theory is going to be sudden fact. And we'll be spoon fed by the media with their reasoning how we're safer.

As safe as the Syrians, Chinese and Veitnamese, I suppose?

Personally, I can't wait to get a microchip-locator imbedded inside my arm so I can buy stuff at will without a credit card, be located if I decide to do crime, and be immediately spotted if something's wrong with my health.

...

Of course, then it'll be time for me to conquer the world so I can get it removed.

[Bob Klase]

Originally Posted by gumboot

The oft-repeated phrase "Those who would give up a little liberty for some security deserve neither" is a load on nonsense.

You're right, that phrase is nonsense although I'm not sure how oft-repeated it is. The original quote (attributed to Ben Franklin although it's generally accepted that it's not his) is more like:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

That's not nonsense. It's just a question of defining "essential liberty" and "temporary safety".

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally Posted by Belz...

Of course, then it'll be time for me to conquer the world so I can get it removed.

Ha! As if the self-destruct code would allow it.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by NoZed Avenger

Ha! As if the self-destruct code would allow it.

NoZed, obviously if I rule the world I'll also have the codes...

[Legalduck]

groan...

Oberdan,

This measures are primarily meant to deal with illegal immigration (as is most of the REAL ID act). The other sections of the REAL ID act dealt with boarder security and changing the burdens of proof in asylum cases. The reason for all the id requirements is for the driver's licenses to be a uniform proof of citizenship. There is a big market for illegal immigration documents, particularly driver's licenses, since many people (even law enforcement) assume that people with DLs are legal.

The REAL ID act is simply forcing states to have uniform (or at least) ids. Each part is meant to foil a common scheme by illegal immigrant. Illegal immigrants can an SSN from many sources, from making one up on the spot to stealing one to acquiring one belonging to someone deceased. It just heavy handed anti-immigration legislation.

Originally Posted by Oberdan

If it was supposed to be a barcode vs a magnetic strip, it would say so. Why a blanket statement for reading technology?

No, it would not say so. Bills are often intentionally vague as to specific technologies. This way the bill will continue to have effect even if magnetic strips or bar coding is replaced by another tech. No need to later amend the law. This is called the CYA doctrine.

As others have noted, the id document (birth certificate/ Social Security Card/ Passport) will be retained digitally in a separate database, not on the card. This is a misreading of the statute. This is a way to hold the issuing agent accountable for checking on the status of any applicant. It places the burden on them to show that the card holder's id was sufficiently verified.

The REAL ID ticks me off, but its not a police state tool.

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by Bob Klase

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

That's not nonsense. It's just a question of defining "essential liberty" and "temporary safety".

Yus! Exactly.

The key words in the quote are "essential" and "temporary". By leaving them out of the quote you totally and drastically change its meaning.



-Andrew

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by bob_kark

I want to be certain that I understand your claim. Because of proposed National ID cards and Eminent Domain laws, you believe that the United States is becoming a police state? Do you have any further evidence you would care to share to support your theory?

Try adding massive data mining of the Internet and financial records, arresting people without warrants, charges, or even access to lawyers, calling them enemy combatants and jailing them for years including torture with little or no evidence against them, mass deportations of innocent people on as little as a minor typo on a Visa document or factual errors by immigration agents....

It may not be a conspiracy but we have lost an outrageous amount of basic freedoms due to complacency.

Gumb, we actually have some common ground here. Amazing.