Afghani Eject Computer Experts

SteveGrenard · 9th August 2006, 08:21 AM

Korean computer experts there to help the country set-up its computer needs have been asked to leave Afgghanistan on charges of attempted apostasy.

Which proves you can't help these people so why risk your life trying?

Quote:

KABUL: August 7, 2006. Afghanistan has ordered hundreds of South Korean Christians on Sunday August 6, to leave the country yesterday, accusing them of seeking to undermine Islamic culture and trying to spread Christianity

http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com...php?newsid=866

Tony · 9th August 2006, 07:04 PM

Just remember. Afghanistan is now a free, democratic country. Anything claimed to the contrary is obviously a plot by the librul media to undermine the glorious leadership of President George W. Bush.

As an aside, it looks like the designers of that website stole some design ideas from the San Fran Chronicle.

http://www.sfgate.com/

DJW · 9th August 2006, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by Tony

Just remember. Afghanistan is now a free, democratic country. Anything claimed to the contrary is obviously a plot by the librul media to undermine the glorious leadership of President George W. Bush.

Priming the pump, Tony? Where have you been hangin' around to have become so cynical?

Mephisto · 10th August 2006, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by DJW

Priming the pump, Tony? Where have you been hangin' around to have become so cynical?

America? No need for cynicism there, eh?

Mephisto · 10th August 2006, 06:24 AM

I see this as no different from the missionaries who were expelled from Indonesia (in spite of their good intentions) for spreading X-tianity after the tsunami. It seems that the aid of Christians always comes with a price tag - after all, you can't really expect them to do anything out of the goodness of their heart, right?

I'll side with the Afghani's on this one - religion has screwed up their lives long enough, and there is no reason to believe that Christianity would be any better.

Trantor · 10th August 2006, 07:12 AM

Yeah, the Missionaries talk about their work in feeding the poor and helping the poor nations by building schools, but they always manage to build a church as well. Then they send in a load of Bibles to help these poor people know and spread the truth!

whitefork · 10th August 2006, 07:25 AM

I think they were trying to teach COBOL.

Cleon · 10th August 2006, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by Kullervo

I think they were trying to teach COBOL.

Which is a much more destructive cult than anything Christianity's come up with.

Lonewulf · 10th August 2006, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by Mephisto

I see this as no different from the missionaries who were expelled from Indonesia (in spite of their good intentions) for spreading X-tianity after the tsunami. It seems that the aid of Christians always comes with a price tag - after all, you can't really expect them to do anything out of the goodness of their heart, right?

There's a difference between, "I'll help you, and hey, take this free Bible -- if you choose to convert, then good for you!", and "Take this Bible, convert to our ways, or you get no supplies at all."

From what I've heard about Indonesia, the latter actually happened at least once. While I would prefer for there to be no religion, I do have to wonder what they mean by "converting"... just spreading an idea I don't see the harm with, but actually threatening harm (or threatening to not bring aid) if there are no conversions is wrong, IMO.

Then there's the question over whether Christianity is actually worse than the previous religion before it... or if the idea of the religion in the country being unquestionable is a better idea. I'm all for freedom of religion, instead of forcing everyone to follow a single one.

Hutch · 10th August 2006, 07:54 AM

Having lived in the UAE, I can testify that while believers of Christian and other religions are tolerated, the attempted conversion of Muslims from the true path of Islam is frowned on.

As I recall, there were several arrests/deportations of Americans from the UAE for trying to pass out Bible/tracts to Muslims. The US Embassy made sure they weren't mistreated, but otherwise just waved bye-bye to the missionaries as they were loaded onto the jet plane out of country.

Sounds about the same for Afghanistan.

Bikewer · 10th August 2006, 09:51 AM

Korean Christians trying to convert Afghani Muslims... Is Moon at work here?

hgc · 10th August 2006, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Tony

Just remember. Afghanistan is now a free, democratic country. Anything claimed to the contrary is obviously a plot by the librul media to undermine the glorious leadership of President George W. Bush.

You're just a deranged Bush hater. Everything you say can be answered by that!

Mephisto · 10th August 2006, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Lonewulf

There's a difference between, "I'll help you, and hey, take this free Bible -- if you choose to convert, then good for you!", and "Take this Bible, convert to our ways, or you get no supplies at all."

From what I've heard about Indonesia, the latter actually happened at least once. While I would prefer for there to be no religion, I do have to wonder what they mean by "converting"... just spreading an idea I don't see the harm with, but actually threatening harm (or threatening to not bring aid) if there are no conversions is wrong, IMO.

Then there's the question over whether Christianity is actually worse than the previous religion before it... or if the idea of the religion in the country being unquestionable is a better idea. I'm all for freedom of religion, instead of forcing everyone to follow a single one.

You do remember the Afghani man who was nearly sentenced to death for his admission that he had converted to Christianity, don't you?

Tony · 10th August 2006, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by DJW

Where have you been hangin' around to have become so cynical?

GW's America.

Charlie Monoxide · 10th August 2006, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Kullervo

I think they were trying to teach COBOL.

Don't underestimate the power of Cobol. It's earned me tons of money of the last 10 years (development/maintenance work).

Charlie (off-shore to Afghanistan for hash) Monoxide

Cleon · 10th August 2006, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Charlie Monoxide

Don't underestimate the power of Cobol. It's earned me tons of money of the last 10 years (development/maintenance work).

Java's done the same for me. The difference is that I don't have to shower for hours every day to try and wash the stink and shame off.

Walk The Line · 10th August 2006, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Lonewulf

Then there's the question over whether Christianity is actually worse than the previous religion before it... or if the idea of the religion in the country being unquestionable is a better idea. I'm all for freedom of religion, instead of forcing everyone to follow a single one.

Well, I'd say that Christianity would be a slight improvement over Islam. Last time I checked, no christians in America threatened to kill someone for converting to Islam, while the same cannot be said for Islam in Afghanistan:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc...fghan.convert/

whitefork · 10th August 2006, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Charlie Monoxide

Don't underestimate the power of Cobol. It's earned me tons of money of the last 10 years (development/maintenance work).

Charlie (off-shore to Afghanistan for hash) Monoxide

25 here. (Amsterdam is closer)

Lonewulf · 10th August 2006, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Mephisto

You do remember the Afghani man who was nearly sentenced to death for his admission that he had converted to Christianity, don't you?

Yes, I do. That was partly my point. I think that Afghanistan needs some reform, personally, and while I don't like the idea of "converting teh masses!", I don't see why what seems like peaceful conversions should be compared to harmful conversions (the type that encourages harm on others).

Originally Posted by Walk the Line

Well, I'd say that Christianity would be a slight improvement over Islam. Last time I checked, no christians in America threatened to kill someone for converting to Islam, while the same cannot be said for Islam in Afghanistan

Well, I'd say that America has no state religion, and does not punish others for following a different belief (or no belief). That's the concept behind Freedom of Religion, and it has little to do with the actual majority religion.

To do a good comparison, compare Christianity in America to Islam in a country is the majority in a country that actually officially has freedom of religion.

Walk The Line · 10th August 2006, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Lonewulf

Well, I'd say that America has no state religion, and does not punish others for following a different belief (or no belief). That's the concept behind Freedom of Religion, and it has little to do with the actual majority religion.

Except that the freedom of religion in America came from a time when America was of predominately one religion (Christianity). In fact, many secular countries today come from countries that were highly Christian (a number of European nations come to mind). To me this shows that Christianity had the seeds within it to plant a world where freedom and tolerance are not idle concepts.

Islam may reach the same point eventually, but at the present, Christianity allows for more freedom and tolerance.

Quote:

To do a good comparison, compare Christianity in America to Islam in a country is the majority in a country that actually officially has freedom of religion.

To do a better comparison, compare Christianity in primarily Christian countries to Islam in primarily Islamic countries and see which countries are more tolerant of other religions. In my opinion, it's no contest. Christian countries as far more tolerant of other religions.

Thus, my comment that Christianity is better than Islam - because in some Islamic countries you'll be killed for converting.

TragicMonkey · 10th August 2006, 02:05 PM

There are missionary groups that pretend to be humanitarian organizations, but use that as a cover for attempted conversions. I went to college with a guy who later went to Egypt as a crypto-missionary. He was thrilled that he'd be pretending to dig wells, or whatever, while actually "spreading the word of Jesus's love". Nobody's heard from or of him in about six years. I wouldn't make a large bet on his safety.

Of course, knowing that doofus, he probably mistook Copts for Muslims and spent the whole of his time there attempting to convert Christians to Christianity without realizing it.

bjb · 10th August 2006, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Walk The Line

Well, I'd say that Christianity would be a slight improvement over Islam. Last time I checked, no christians in America threatened to kill someone for converting to Islam, while the same cannot be said for Islam in Afghanistan:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc...fghan.convert/

But apopasty is listed as a capital offense in the Christian bible:

Deuteronomy 13:6-10
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
But I'm pretty sure this is a leftover from the Hebrew beliefs so I don't believe that Christians (followers of the teachings of Christ) ever actually did this.

SteveGrenard · 10th August 2006, 08:28 PM

So? Does this mean modern society needs to follow 2000 year old recommendations? The fact that a 1400 year old religion still does so isthe problem (Islam). Today Jews (sic: hebrews) or Christians do not kill people for changing religion.

Elind · 10th August 2006, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Mephisto

I'll side with the Afghani's on this one - religion has screwed up their lives long enough, and there is no reason to believe that Christianity would be any better.

How many Christian suicide bombers have you read about lately? Seems to me any different superstition is worth trying.

Lonewulf · 10th August 2006, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by Walk The Line

Except that the freedom of religion in America came from a time when America was of predominately one religion (Christianity). In fact, many secular countries today come from countries that were highly Christian (a number of European nations come to mind). To me this shows that Christianity had the seeds within it to plant a world where freedom and tolerance are not idle concepts.

So it has nothing to do with shifting views of society? It's all based on "our religion is holier than yours"?

Quote:

To do a better comparison, compare Christianity in primarily Christian countries to Islam in primarily Islamic countries and see which countries are more tolerant of other religions. In my opinion, it's no contest. Christian countries as far more tolerant of other religions.

Riiiiiiiight... so Christian countries have always been "more tolerant" of other religions? Does this count Wicca? Or the Crusades? Or the Spanish Inquisition?

Or the treatment of the Catholic immigrants by the Protestants? The KKK formed entirely to attack the Catholics that were seen as encroaching on the way of life of the Protestants. And that was fairly recent.

Society changed, not the religion. Society changed the people that followed the religion.

Quote:

Thus, my comment that Christianity is better than Islam - because in some Islamic countries you'll be killed for converting.

You would've been killed for converting in the past! What do you think the Spanish Inquisition was about in the first place? And in many "Christian" countries, they aren't exactly tolerant... see the "Time of Troubles", or the people abandoned for not converting to Christianity left to die in Indonesia.

Originally Posted by Elind

How many Christian suicide bombers have you read about lately? Seems to me any different superstition is worth trying.

Dunno about suicide bombers, but what about bombers that killed police officers and doctors in abortion clinics?

Quite frankly, I don't blame the religion, I blame the people and their society.

Charlie Monoxide · 11th August 2006, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Cleon

Java's done the same for me. The difference is that I don't have to shower for hours every day to try and wash the stink and shame off.

Hey Java boy. I bet you have lots of tats and piercing and probably use a Mac as well.

Real men use 3270 dumb terminals and wear ties like Dilbert ....

Charlie (defending Cobol, sheesh) Monoxide

Mephisto · 11th August 2006, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Walk The Line

Well, I'd say that Christianity would be a slight improvement over Islam. Last time I checked, no christians in America threatened to kill someone for converting to Islam, while the same cannot be said for Islam in Afghanistan:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc...fghan.convert/

But they HAVE murdered abortion doctors and bombed clinics, all in the name of God.

Mephisto · 11th August 2006, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by Elind

How many Christian suicide bombers have you read about lately? Seems to me any different superstition is worth trying.

Well if we're in the business of converting people to less aggressive religions why aren't we making them Quakers or Buddhists, oh yeah, they're often Conscientious Objectors to military service and violence. Not expedient when we're trying to create a bastion of Democracy, eh?

Cleon · 11th August 2006, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Charlie Monoxide

Hey Java boy. I bet you have lots of tats and piercing and probably use a Mac as well.

Please. There is no OS but Linux, and Linus is its coder.

Quote:

Real men use 3270 dumb terminals and wear ties like Dilbert ....

Whereas programmers wear t-shirts and code on actual computers.

Quote:

Charlie (defending Cobol, sheesh) Monoxide

It's nothing to be ashamed of. The first step is to admit you have a problem...

Mephisto · 11th August 2006, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by Walk The Line

To do a better comparison, compare Christianity in primarily Christian countries to Islam in primarily Islamic countries and see which countries are more tolerant of other religions. In my opinion, it's no contest. Christian countries as far more tolerant of other religions.

A better comparison?

How about comparing which religions in the U.S. want their 10 Rules emblazoned on the walls of public buildings. How about comparing which religions are pushing for prayer in schools (you don't honestly think that a Jew, a Muslim or a Satanist will be welcome at the microphone when blessing the football team, do you?). How about comparing which religions are pushing that their beliefs on the origin of mankind be taught alongside science? How about abortion - which religions in the U.S. are dictating what rights a woman has with her own body? How about Stem Cell research - who is protesting that the sanctity of life extends to a single cell? Which religions are up in arms about taking a woman who had been in a persistent vegetative state for 14 years off life support?

I'd rather just live in the U.S. when we regain our Bill of Rights which also provides us with freedom FROM religion.

SteveGrenard · 11th August 2006, 09:42 AM

All three major faiths - Christian, Jew and Muslin - embrace the ten commandments. Even if not god given these rules have formed the basis for much secular law.

CFLarsen · 11th August 2006, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

All three major faiths - Christian, Jew and Muslin - embrace the ten commandments.

Again, you show your very limited knowledge of Islamic matters.

Tony · 11th August 2006, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

Even if not god given these rules have formed the basis for much secular law.

Which secular laws?

Cleon · 11th August 2006, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

Even if not god given these rules have formed the basis for much secular law.

No, they didn't. Let's review, shall way?

1. I am the Lord thy God. (Not, to my knowledge, currently enshrined in secular law.)
2. No graven images of what is in the heavens above. (Nope, no law there, either.)
3. Do not take the Lord's name in vain. (Goddammit! No laws broken there...)
4. Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. (Blue laws not withstanding, there's really no secular law keeping me from doing whatever the $%^& I want on Shabbos.)
5. Honor your father and mother. (Do I really need to even go there?)
6. Thou shalt not kill/murder. (OK, something secular, finally. However, I think I can safely say that the secular prohibition against wacking people dates back before the Ten C.)
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery. (Definitely no secular law here.)
8. Thou shalt not steal. (The second one enshrined in law, but again, this goes back before the Commandments.)
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness. (Debatable, I suppose. Lying is perfectly legal, except under certain legal conditions--and that's more of a practical need to try and keep witnesses honest than a holdover from the ten commandments.)
10. No covetting of other people's stuff. (Well, hell, wanting other people's stuff is the basis of capitalist economy. How are you going to form a law against that?)

So, final score:

Two commandments that are definitely in secular law, however, it seems that in those cases the Big Ten are based on the secular law rather than vice-versa. Or there's widespread agreement that killing and stealing are Bad.

One commandment (bearing false witness) that could be considered the basis of a secular law, but the law seems more based on practical need than religious imperative.

So at best we're talking 3/10, and those three are questionable as to whether they REALLY "form the basis of secular law."

Walk The Line · 11th August 2006, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Lonewulf

So it has nothing to do with shifting views of society? It's all based on "our religion is holier than yours"?

I'm not saying any religion is holier than another. I just made the point that more tolerant and secular societies have been borne out of Christianity than Islam. A reasonable conclusion to me, and I'm willing to be shown that I am wrong, is that Christianity is at least partially responsible for the change (though not completely).

Quote:

Riiiiiiiight... so Christian countries have always been "more tolerant" of other religions? Does this count Wicca? Or the Crusades? Or the Spanish Inquisition?

Or the treatment of the Catholic immigrants by the Protestants? The KKK formed entirely to attack the Catholics that were seen as encroaching on the way of life of the Protestants. And that was fairly recent.

Society changed, not the religion. Society changed the people that followed the religion.

And prior to the American Civil War a number of Christian preachers actively and vocally worked against slavery. And during the Civil Rights movement, much of the organization behind protests/marches came from black Christian churches.

Christianity has done, and is capable of doing good for people (note: I am not saying that is incapable of error either).

Quote:

You would've been killed for converting in the past! What do you think the Spanish Inquisition was about in the first place? And in many "Christian" countries, they aren't exactly tolerant... see the "Time of Troubles", or the people abandoned for not converting to Christianity left to die in Indonesia.

Yes, I would have been killed in the past, but Christianity of today is not the same as Christianity of 800 years ago.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear in my last message that I think that as of today (not Christianity hundreds of years ago, I quite enjoy living in the modern world), Christianity would be an improvement over Islam.

If you want to show that Islam is a preferable religion then I am still waiting.

Quote:

Dunno about suicide bombers, but what about bombers that killed police officers and doctors in abortion clinics?

Yes, and in every society there will be murder (even Athiest ones such at the former Soviet Union). But that does not invalidate the idea that Christianity is better than Islam.

Quote:

Quite frankly, I don't blame the religion, I blame the people and their society.

You can't separate a religion from society when a clear majority of the people of that society beleive in religion.

To me it is clear that a majority of Christian countries are ahead of Muslim countries in terms of women's rights, drinking alcohol, and freedom of expression/religion.

I'm willing to be shown that I am wrong, but I don't see any evidence that has been presented to convince me that I am wrong.

CFLarsen · 11th August 2006, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Cleon

6. Thou shalt not kill/murder. (OK, something secular, finally. However, I think I can safely say that the secular prohibition against wacking people dates back before the Ten C.)

8. Thou shalt not steal. (The second one enshrined in law, but again, this goes back before the Commandments.)

Two commandments that are definitely in secular law, however, it seems that in those cases the Big Ten are based on the secular law rather than vice-versa. Or there's widespread agreement that killing and stealing are Bad.

One commandment (bearing false witness) that could be considered the basis of a secular law, but the law seems more based on practical need than religious imperative.

So at best we're talking 3/10, and those three are questionable as to whether they REALLY "form the basis of secular law."

None of these are particular to the 10 Commandments, or the three religions. I can't think of any society ever where it was permissible to kill or steal (or even bear false witness).

Cleon · 11th August 2006, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

None of these are particular to the 10 Commandments, or the three religions. I can't think of any society ever where it was permissible to kill or steal (or even bear false witness).

Exactly my point. At BEST we're talking 30%, and even of those, there's no clear line that the secular equivalents are based on the 10C rather than the more likely idea that it's the other way around.

Elind · 11th August 2006, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

All three major faiths - Christian, Jew and Muslin - embrace the ten commandments. Even if not god given these rules have formed the basis for much secular law.

Now who are you quoting here? Pat Robertson, Scalia, GWB?

Which of those rule have actual legal counterpoints in our laws? Let's see, I can come up with 3. Don't kill, don't steal, don't bear false witness.

Did I forget any?

Last question:

Would anybody in their right mind think that Neanderthals didn't have the same rules; right up to Moses' time?

Sheesh..

Walk The Line · 11th August 2006, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Mephisto

A better comparison?

How about comparing which religions in the U.S. want their 10 Rules emblazoned on the walls of public buildings. How about comparing which religions are pushing for prayer in schools (you don't honestly think that a Jew, a Muslim or a Satanist will be welcome at the microphone when blessing the football team, do you?). How about comparing which religions are pushing that their beliefs on the origin of mankind be taught alongside science? How about abortion - which religions in the U.S. are dictating what rights a woman has with her own body? How about Stem Cell research - who is protesting that the sanctity of life extends to a single cell? Which religions are up in arms about taking a woman who had been in a persistent vegetative state for 14 years off life support?

I'd rather just live in the U.S. when we regain our Bill of Rights which also provides us with freedom FROM religion.

I agree with you that in the United States Christianity is attempting to push it's way into schools and science, and I do not agree with it. But that does not mean an Islamic society is better than a Christian society, which is what we are comparing here.

I could raise the point that in Saudia Arabia that open practice of other religions is not even allowed.

Or that stem cell research in muslim countries probably isn't as extensive as that in Christian countries (though I don't know for sure).

Or that in a number of Islamic countries, women can't drive or vote (though this has been changing for the better), or even wear something beyond veils.

So, like I said, if you have evidence that Islamic countries are an improvment over Christian countries I'd love to hear it.

SteveGrenard · 11th August 2006, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Elind

Now who are you quoting here? Pat Robertson, Scalia, GWB?

Which of those rule have actual legal counterpoints in our laws? Let's see, I can come up with 3. Don't kill, don't steal, don't bear false witness.

Did I forget any?

Last question:

Would anybody in their right mind think that Neanderthals didn't have the same rules; right up to Moses' time?

Sheesh..

Secular laws based on the tablets predate Robertson and Bush. The important question is it true or not?

I presume you have some evidence as good as the written ten commandments to support the neanderthal assertion? Did neanderthals live up to Moses' time?

9th August 2006, 08:21 AM	#1
SteveGrenard Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Wherever the airline sends my luggage Posts: 5,528	Afghani Eject Computer Experts Korean computer experts there to help the country set-up its computer needs have been asked to leave Afgghanistan on charges of attempted apostasy. Which proves you can't help these people so why risk your life trying? Quote: KABUL: August 7, 2006. Afghanistan has ordered hundreds of South Korean Christians on Sunday August 6, to leave the country yesterday, accusing them of seeking to undermine Islamic culture and trying to spread Christianity http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com...php?newsid=866
	__________________ "We are facing a neurosis at the level of an entire civilization” Pierre Rehov

9th August 2006, 07:04 PM	#2
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,765	Just remember. Afghanistan is now a free, democratic country. Anything claimed to the contrary is obviously a plot by the librul media to undermine the glorious leadership of President George W. Bush. As an aside, it looks like the designers of that website stole some design ideas from the San Fran Chronicle. http://www.sfgate.com/
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

10th August 2006, 06:20 AM	#4
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by DJW Priming the pump, Tony? Where have you been hangin' around to have become so cynical? America? No need for cynicism there, eh?
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

10th August 2006, 06:24 AM	#5
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	I see this as no different from the missionaries who were expelled from Indonesia (in spite of their good intentions) for spreading X-tianity after the tsunami. It seems that the aid of Christians always comes with a price tag - after all, you can't really expect them to do anything out of the goodness of their heart, right? I'll side with the Afghani's on this one - religion has screwed up their lives long enough, and there is no reason to believe that Christianity would be any better.
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

10th August 2006, 07:12 AM	#6
Trantor Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 526	Yeah, the Missionaries talk about their work in feeding the poor and helping the poor nations by building schools, but they always manage to build a church as well. Then they send in a load of Bibles to help these poor people know and spread the truth!
Trantor Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 526

9th August 2006, 07:35 PM	#3
DJW Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 581	Originally Posted by Tony Just remember. Afghanistan is now a free, democratic country. Anything claimed to the contrary is obviously a plot by the librul media to undermine the glorious leadership of President George W. Bush. Priming the pump, Tony? Where have you been hangin' around to have become so cynical?

10th August 2006, 07:25 AM	#7
whitefork None of the above Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: aka kullervo Posts: 2,339	I think they were trying to teach COBOL.
	__________________ Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies - Nietzsche

10th August 2006, 07:26 AM	#8
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,528	Originally Posted by Kullervo I think they were trying to teach COBOL. Which is a much more destructive cult than anything Christianity's come up with.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

10th August 2006, 07:30 AM	#9
Lonewulf Humanistic Cyborg Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 10,380	Originally Posted by Mephisto I see this as no different from the missionaries who were expelled from Indonesia (in spite of their good intentions) for spreading X-tianity after the tsunami. It seems that the aid of Christians always comes with a price tag - after all, you can't really expect them to do anything out of the goodness of their heart, right? There's a difference between, "I'll help you, and hey, take this free Bible -- if you choose to convert, then good for you!", and "Take this Bible, convert to our ways, or you get no supplies at all." From what I've heard about Indonesia, the latter actually happened at least once. While I would prefer for there to be no religion, I do have to wonder what they mean by "converting"... just spreading an idea I don't see the harm with, but actually threatening harm (or threatening to not bring aid) if there are no conversions is wrong, IMO. Then there's the question over whether Christianity is actually worse than the previous religion before it... or if the idea of the religion in the country being unquestionable is a better idea. I'm all for freedom of religion, instead of forcing everyone to follow a single one.
	__________________ Writing.com Account

10th August 2006, 07:54 AM	#10
Hutch A broken man on a Halifax pier, the last of Barrett's Privateers Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: About 7 Miles from the Saturn 5B Posts: 6,536	Having lived in the UAE, I can testify that while believers of Christian and other religions are tolerated, the attempted conversion of Muslims from the true path of Islam is frowned on. As I recall, there were several arrests/deportations of Americans from the UAE for trying to pass out Bible/tracts to Muslims. The US Embassy made sure they weren't mistreated, but otherwise just waved bye-bye to the missionaries as they were loaded onto the jet plane out of country. Sounds about the same for Afghanistan.
	__________________ If sheer righteous fury could accomplish anything worthwhile, Wolverines would have inherited the Galaxy long ago." -Web DuHavel, David Weber's "Honorverse" Series

10th August 2006, 09:51 AM	#11
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,528	Korean Christians trying to convert Afghani Muslims... Is Moon at work here?

10th August 2006, 10:08 AM	#12
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,012	Originally Posted by Tony Just remember. Afghanistan is now a free, democratic country. Anything claimed to the contrary is obviously a plot by the librul media to undermine the glorious leadership of President George W. Bush. You're just a deranged Bush hater. Everything you say can be answered by that!
	__________________ Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him and wail him with monster truck force. - Cake, The Distance Was there a second singer on the grassy Knowles? - Stephen Colbert

10th August 2006, 10:29 AM	#13
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by Lonewulf There's a difference between, "I'll help you, and hey, take this free Bible -- if you choose to convert, then good for you!", and "Take this Bible, convert to our ways, or you get no supplies at all." From what I've heard about Indonesia, the latter actually happened at least once. While I would prefer for there to be no religion, I do have to wonder what they mean by "converting"... just spreading an idea I don't see the harm with, but actually threatening harm (or threatening to not bring aid) if there are no conversions is wrong, IMO. Then there's the question over whether Christianity is actually worse than the previous religion before it... or if the idea of the religion in the country being unquestionable is a better idea. I'm all for freedom of religion, instead of forcing everyone to follow a single one. You do remember the Afghani man who was nearly sentenced to death for his admission that he had converted to Christianity, don't you?
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

10th August 2006, 11:32 AM	#14
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,765	Originally Posted by DJW Where have you been hangin' around to have become so cynical? GW's America.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

10th August 2006, 11:37 AM	#15
Charlie Monoxide Wag Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 2,761	Originally Posted by Kullervo I think they were trying to teach COBOL. Don't underestimate the power of Cobol. It's earned me tons of money of the last 10 years (development/maintenance work). Charlie (off-shore to Afghanistan for hash) Monoxide
	__________________ Major General Wag of JREF

10th August 2006, 11:42 AM	#16
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,528	Originally Posted by Charlie Monoxide Don't underestimate the power of Cobol. It's earned me tons of money of the last 10 years (development/maintenance work). Java's done the same for me. The difference is that I don't have to shower for hours every day to try and wash the stink and shame off.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

10th August 2006, 11:46 AM	#17
Walk The Line We ARE Virginia Tech Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 936	Originally Posted by Lonewulf Then there's the question over whether Christianity is actually worse than the previous religion before it... or if the idea of the religion in the country being unquestionable is a better idea. I'm all for freedom of religion, instead of forcing everyone to follow a single one. Well, I'd say that Christianity would be a slight improvement over Islam. Last time I checked, no christians in America threatened to kill someone for converting to Islam, while the same cannot be said for Islam in Afghanistan: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc...fghan.convert/

10th August 2006, 11:47 AM	#18
whitefork None of the above Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: aka kullervo Posts: 2,339	Originally Posted by Charlie Monoxide Don't underestimate the power of Cobol. It's earned me tons of money of the last 10 years (development/maintenance work). Charlie (off-shore to Afghanistan for hash) Monoxide 25 here. (Amsterdam is closer)
	__________________ Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies - Nietzsche

10th August 2006, 12:11 PM	#19
Lonewulf Humanistic Cyborg Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 10,380	Originally Posted by Mephisto You do remember the Afghani man who was nearly sentenced to death for his admission that he had converted to Christianity, don't you? Yes, I do. That was partly my point. I think that Afghanistan needs some reform, personally, and while I don't like the idea of "converting teh masses!", I don't see why what seems like peaceful conversions should be compared to harmful conversions (the type that encourages harm on others). Originally Posted by Walk the Line Well, I'd say that Christianity would be a slight improvement over Islam. Last time I checked, no christians in America threatened to kill someone for converting to Islam, while the same cannot be said for Islam in Afghanistan Well, I'd say that America has no state religion, and does not punish others for following a different belief (or no belief). That's the concept behind Freedom of Religion, and it has little to do with the actual majority religion. To do a good comparison, compare Christianity in America to Islam in a country is the majority in a country that actually officially has freedom of religion.
	__________________ Writing.com Account

10th August 2006, 12:40 PM	#20
Walk The Line We ARE Virginia Tech Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 936	Originally Posted by Lonewulf Well, I'd say that America has no state religion, and does not punish others for following a different belief (or no belief). That's the concept behind Freedom of Religion, and it has little to do with the actual majority religion. Except that the freedom of religion in America came from a time when America was of predominately one religion (Christianity). In fact, many secular countries today come from countries that were highly Christian (a number of European nations come to mind). To me this shows that Christianity had the seeds within it to plant a world where freedom and tolerance are not idle concepts. Islam may reach the same point eventually, but at the present, Christianity allows for more freedom and tolerance. Quote: To do a good comparison, compare Christianity in America to Islam in a country is the majority in a country that actually officially has freedom of religion. To do a better comparison, compare Christianity in primarily Christian countries to Islam in primarily Islamic countries and see which countries are more tolerant of other religions. In my opinion, it's no contest. Christian countries as far more tolerant of other religions. Thus, my comment that Christianity is better than Islam - because in some Islamic countries you'll be killed for converting.

10th August 2006, 02:05 PM	#21
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,081	There are missionary groups that pretend to be humanitarian organizations, but use that as a cover for attempted conversions. I went to college with a guy who later went to Egypt as a crypto-missionary. He was thrilled that he'd be pretending to dig wells, or whatever, while actually "spreading the word of Jesus's love". Nobody's heard from or of him in about six years. I wouldn't make a large bet on his safety. Of course, knowing that doofus, he probably mistook Copts for Muslims and spent the whole of his time there attempting to convert Christians to Christianity without realizing it.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

10th August 2006, 07:51 PM	#22
bjb Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,079	Originally Posted by Walk The Line Well, I'd say that Christianity would be a slight improvement over Islam. Last time I checked, no christians in America threatened to kill someone for converting to Islam, while the same cannot be said for Islam in Afghanistan: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc...fghan.convert/ But apopasty is listed as a capital offense in the Christian bible: Deuteronomy 13:6-10 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. But I'm pretty sure this is a leftover from the Hebrew beliefs so I don't believe that Christians (followers of the teachings of Christ) ever actually did this.
bjb Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,079

10th August 2006, 08:28 PM	#23
SteveGrenard Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Wherever the airline sends my luggage Posts: 5,528	So? Does this mean modern society needs to follow 2000 year old recommendations? The fact that a 1400 year old religion still does so isthe problem (Islam). Today Jews (sic: hebrews) or Christians do not kill people for changing religion.
	__________________ "We are facing a neurosis at the level of an entire civilization” Pierre Rehov

10th August 2006, 08:48 PM	#24
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,622	Originally Posted by Mephisto I'll side with the Afghani's on this one - religion has screwed up their lives long enough, and there is no reason to believe that Christianity would be any better. How many Christian suicide bombers have you read about lately? Seems to me any different superstition is worth trying.
	Last edited by Elind; 10th August 2006 at 08:50 PM.

10th August 2006, 09:47 PM	#25
Lonewulf Humanistic Cyborg Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 10,380	Originally Posted by Walk The Line Except that the freedom of religion in America came from a time when America was of predominately one religion (Christianity). In fact, many secular countries today come from countries that were highly Christian (a number of European nations come to mind). To me this shows that Christianity had the seeds within it to plant a world where freedom and tolerance are not idle concepts. So it has nothing to do with shifting views of society? It's all based on "our religion is holier than yours"? Quote: To do a better comparison, compare Christianity in primarily Christian countries to Islam in primarily Islamic countries and see which countries are more tolerant of other religions. In my opinion, it's no contest. Christian countries as far more tolerant of other religions. Riiiiiiiight... so Christian countries have always been "more tolerant" of other religions? Does this count Wicca? Or the Crusades? Or the Spanish Inquisition? Or the treatment of the Catholic immigrants by the Protestants? The KKK formed entirely to attack the Catholics that were seen as encroaching on the way of life of the Protestants. And that was fairly recent. Society changed, not the religion. Society changed the people that followed the religion. Quote: Thus, my comment that Christianity is better than Islam - because in some Islamic countries you'll be killed for converting. You would've been killed for converting in the past! What do you think the Spanish Inquisition was about in the first place? And in many "Christian" countries, they aren't exactly tolerant... see the "Time of Troubles", or the people abandoned for not converting to Christianity left to die in Indonesia. Originally Posted by Elind How many Christian suicide bombers have you read about lately? Seems to me any different superstition is worth trying. Dunno about suicide bombers, but what about bombers that killed police officers and doctors in abortion clinics? Quite frankly, I don't blame the religion, I blame the people and their society.
	__________________ Writing.com Account Last edited by Lonewulf; 10th August 2006 at 09:54 PM.

11th August 2006, 08:52 AM	#26
Charlie Monoxide Wag Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 2,761	Originally Posted by Cleon Java's done the same for me. The difference is that I don't have to shower for hours every day to try and wash the stink and shame off. Hey Java boy. I bet you have lots of tats and piercing and probably use a Mac as well. Real men use 3270 dumb terminals and wear ties like Dilbert .... Charlie (defending Cobol, sheesh) Monoxide
	__________________ Major General Wag of JREF

11th August 2006, 08:58 AM	#27
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by Walk The Line Well, I'd say that Christianity would be a slight improvement over Islam. Last time I checked, no christians in America threatened to kill someone for converting to Islam, while the same cannot be said for Islam in Afghanistan: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc...fghan.convert/ But they HAVE murdered abortion doctors and bombed clinics, all in the name of God.
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

11th August 2006, 09:00 AM	#28
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by Elind How many Christian suicide bombers have you read about lately? Seems to me any different superstition is worth trying. Well if we're in the business of converting people to less aggressive religions why aren't we making them Quakers or Buddhists, oh yeah, they're often Conscientious Objectors to military service and violence. Not expedient when we're trying to create a bastion of Democracy, eh?
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

11th August 2006, 09:01 AM	#29
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,528	Originally Posted by Charlie Monoxide Hey Java boy. I bet you have lots of tats and piercing and probably use a Mac as well. Please. There is no OS but Linux, and Linus is its coder. Quote: Real men use 3270 dumb terminals and wear ties like Dilbert .... Whereas programmers wear t-shirts and code on actual computers. Quote: Charlie (defending Cobol, sheesh) Monoxide It's nothing to be ashamed of. The first step is to admit you have a problem...
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

11th August 2006, 09:09 AM	#30
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by Walk The Line To do a better comparison, compare Christianity in primarily Christian countries to Islam in primarily Islamic countries and see which countries are more tolerant of other religions. In my opinion, it's no contest. Christian countries as far more tolerant of other religions. A better comparison? How about comparing which religions in the U.S. want their 10 Rules emblazoned on the walls of public buildings. How about comparing which religions are pushing for prayer in schools (you don't honestly think that a Jew, a Muslim or a Satanist will be welcome at the microphone when blessing the football team, do you?). How about comparing which religions are pushing that their beliefs on the origin of mankind be taught alongside science? How about abortion - which religions in the U.S. are dictating what rights a woman has with her own body? How about Stem Cell research - who is protesting that the sanctity of life extends to a single cell? Which religions are up in arms about taking a woman who had been in a persistent vegetative state for 14 years off life support? I'd rather just live in the U.S. when we regain our Bill of Rights which also provides us with freedom FROM religion.
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

11th August 2006, 09:42 AM	#31
SteveGrenard Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Wherever the airline sends my luggage Posts: 5,528	All three major faiths - Christian, Jew and Muslin - embrace the ten commandments. Even if not god given these rules have formed the basis for much secular law.
	__________________ "We are facing a neurosis at the level of an entire civilization” Pierre Rehov

11th August 2006, 09:50 AM	#32
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Originally Posted by SteveGrenard All three major faiths - Christian, Jew and Muslin - embrace the ten commandments. Again, you show your very limited knowledge of Islamic matters.
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

11th August 2006, 10:08 AM	#33
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,765	Originally Posted by SteveGrenard Even if not god given these rules have formed the basis for much secular law. Which secular laws?
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

11th August 2006, 10:14 AM	#34
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,528	Originally Posted by SteveGrenard Even if not god given these rules have formed the basis for much secular law. No, they didn't. Let's review, shall way? 1. I am the Lord thy God. (Not, to my knowledge, currently enshrined in secular law.) 2. No graven images of what is in the heavens above. (Nope, no law there, either.) 3. Do not take the Lord's name in vain. (Goddammit! No laws broken there...) 4. Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. (Blue laws not withstanding, there's really no secular law keeping me from doing whatever the $%^& I want on Shabbos.) 5. Honor your father and mother. (Do I really need to even go there?) 6. Thou shalt not kill/murder. (OK, something secular, finally. However, I think I can safely say that the secular prohibition against wacking people dates back before the Ten C.) 7. Thou shalt not commit adultery. (Definitely no secular law here.) 8. Thou shalt not steal. (The second one enshrined in law, but again, this goes back before the Commandments.) 9. Thou shalt not bear false witness. (Debatable, I suppose. Lying is perfectly legal, except under certain legal conditions--and that's more of a practical need to try and keep witnesses honest than a holdover from the ten commandments.) 10. No covetting of other people's stuff. (Well, hell, wanting other people's stuff is the basis of capitalist economy. How are you going to form a law against that?) So, final score: Two commandments that are definitely in secular law, however, it seems that in those cases the Big Ten are based on the secular law rather than vice-versa. Or there's widespread agreement that killing and stealing are Bad. One commandment (bearing false witness) that could be considered the basis of a secular law, but the law seems more based on practical need than religious imperative. So at best we're talking 3/10, and those three are questionable as to whether they REALLY "form the basis of secular law."
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

11th August 2006, 10:32 AM	#35
Walk The Line We ARE Virginia Tech Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 936	Originally Posted by Lonewulf So it has nothing to do with shifting views of society? It's all based on "our religion is holier than yours"? I'm not saying any religion is holier than another. I just made the point that more tolerant and secular societies have been borne out of Christianity than Islam. A reasonable conclusion to me, and I'm willing to be shown that I am wrong, is that Christianity is at least partially responsible for the change (though not completely). Quote: Riiiiiiiight... so Christian countries have always been "more tolerant" of other religions? Does this count Wicca? Or the Crusades? Or the Spanish Inquisition? Or the treatment of the Catholic immigrants by the Protestants? The KKK formed entirely to attack the Catholics that were seen as encroaching on the way of life of the Protestants. And that was fairly recent. Society changed, not the religion. Society changed the people that followed the religion. And prior to the American Civil War a number of Christian preachers actively and vocally worked against slavery. And during the Civil Rights movement, much of the organization behind protests/marches came from black Christian churches. Christianity has done, and is capable of doing good for people (note: I am not saying that is incapable of error either). Quote: You would've been killed for converting in the past! What do you think the Spanish Inquisition was about in the first place? And in many "Christian" countries, they aren't exactly tolerant... see the "Time of Troubles", or the people abandoned for not converting to Christianity left to die in Indonesia. Yes, I would have been killed in the past, but Christianity of today is not the same as Christianity of 800 years ago. Perhaps I didn't make it clear in my last message that I think that as of today (not Christianity hundreds of years ago, I quite enjoy living in the modern world), Christianity would be an improvement over Islam. If you want to show that Islam is a preferable religion then I am still waiting. Quote: Dunno about suicide bombers, but what about bombers that killed police officers and doctors in abortion clinics? Yes, and in every society there will be murder (even Athiest ones such at the former Soviet Union). But that does not invalidate the idea that Christianity is better than Islam. Quote: Quite frankly, I don't blame the religion, I blame the people and their society. You can't separate a religion from society when a clear majority of the people of that society beleive in religion. To me it is clear that a majority of Christian countries are ahead of Muslim countries in terms of women's rights, drinking alcohol, and freedom of expression/religion. I'm willing to be shown that I am wrong, but I don't see any evidence that has been presented to convince me that I am wrong.