Debunk please

Dazed · 10th August 2006, 05:36 AM

I noticed this over at the loose change forums, I was curious what the reactions of veteran skeptics would be.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=9979

The key point here being, no smoke in the earlier pictures, much smoke in the later pictures, localized in an area where a guy is doing.. something.

The poster didn't mention it, but "bob" seems to be carrying something.

kookbreaker · 10th August 2006, 05:44 AM

The smoke looks pretty thin and something like you'd get from a power tool like a chainsaw. The thickest smoke could easily be some other piece of equipment at work.

Sorry, no 'smoking gun' here.

Dazed · 10th August 2006, 05:47 AM

Power tool? That's supposed to be the smoking wreckage of the plane.

Darat · 10th August 2006, 05:48 AM

Well for start his first comments about "civilians arrive first"... he seems not to have noticed the man in the white "investigation" suit in the first photo.

Shrinker · 10th August 2006, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by Dazed

I noticed this over at the loose change forums, I was curious what the reactions of veteran skeptics would be.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=9979

The key point here being, no smoke in the earlier pictures, much smoke in the later pictures, localized in an area where a guy is doing.. something.

The poster didn't mention it, but "bob" seems to be carrying something.

No, this is very suspicious. It's well known that when planting evidence secret agents wear bright yellow suits to make sure their actions go unnoticed.

Maybe there was something very hot underground. When one of the guys moved some earth or whatever, oxygen was able to get in and things began to burn. However, I'm not an expert in uderground fires.

I noticed this quote from the post "No one knows who these people were. No one knows what they were doing." Did he ask everyone? I suspect what he really mean is that he doesn't know who they were. To me, they look an awful lot like an air crash investigation team.

Dazed · 10th August 2006, 05:58 AM

That's what they look like to me too. So you think the absense of smoke turning into the presence of smoke was caused by unearthing part of the plane that was buried. Any other theories?

LTC8K6 · 10th August 2006, 06:01 AM

Ask the guy why the fire department chops the hell out of your house and keeps wetting it long after the fire appears to be out.

Shrinker · 10th August 2006, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by Dazed

That's what they look like to me too. So you think the absense of smoke turning into the presence of smoke was caused by unearthing part of the plane that was buried. Any other theories?

No, I said 'maybe'. I don't know anything about plane crashes so I'm not making any claims. It is however a reasonably possibility IMO, so I don't see the photos as suspicious.

Dazed · 10th August 2006, 06:09 AM

I know, I'm taking your 'maybe' as one possible explanation, and inviting others.

defaultdotxbe · 10th August 2006, 04:34 PM

just tossing this out there but by what method was it determined that this was the correct chronological order?

and why would MiBs (or MiW+Ys in this case) allow someone to stand there and photograph them planting evidence and starting fires?

why would they have to? why couldnt they just crash another remotely controlled 757?

Dr Adequate · 10th August 2006, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Dazed

I know, I'm taking your 'maybe' as one possible explanation, and inviting others.

Well, in the real world, everyone knows that raking up a fire stirs up smoke.

Now let's turn to the alternate reality of the Consipracy Theory.

In this magic land, that little bit of smoke was faked.

Why?

The Great Big Evil Conspiracy has knocked down the Twin Towers, they've attacked the Pentagon, they've killed thousands of people --- and now, to put a final seal on their trail of destruction, they're going to make a tiny little plume of smoke rise?

And so desperate are they to do this that they still carry out this fiendish plan while people stand there taking photographs of them doing it.

How do you account for this?

I can account for it by a fact which I should have thought was known to everyone --- but how do you account for it?

gumboot · 10th August 2006, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

The Great Big Evil Conspiracy has knocked down the Twin Towers, they've attacked the Pentagon, they've killed thousands of people --- and now, to put a final seal on their trail of destruction, they're going to make a tiny little plume of smoke rise?

And so desperate are they to do this that they still carry out this fiendish plan while people stand there taking photographs of them doing it.

You've got to hand it to them...

At least the CTers are consistant.

-Andrew

.13. · 10th August 2006, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Well for start his first comments about "civilians arrive first"... he seems not to have noticed the man in the white "investigation" suit in the first photo.

Also the "civilians" who are not wearing an "investigation" suit seem to wear hardhats.

Brainster · 10th August 2006, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by .13.

Also the "civilians" who are not wearing an "investigation" suit seem to wear hardhats.

1. What tells the poster over at LC that he's got the sequential order of the photos correct?

2. If they'd done what Uncle Fetzer suggested (dug a ten foot hole in the ground, dumped some trash in it and blowed it up), wouldn't they also have started the fires prior to the photographers arriving?

Hey, I'm just asking questions.

.13. · 10th August 2006, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Brainster

2. If they'd done what Uncle Fetzer suggested (dug a ten foot hole in the ground, dumped some trash in it and blowed it up), wouldn't they also have started the fires prior to the photographers arriving?

Hey, I'm just asking questions.

Inept subcontractors probably forgot to bury the explosives to the crash site. Since there were no explosives in the ground, the plane had to be diverted and it dissapeared. Everyone knows one can't fake a real fake plane crash without controlled demolition.

So they ended up hastily improvising.

negativ · 11th August 2006, 06:03 AM

I know when I'm forging a crime scene, I always stand around and let AP photogs shoot the rehearsal.

Edit: And I'm STILL not banned over there. I wonder if they met their banning quota for this month, or what?

Cuddles · 11th August 2006, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Yellow and white suited people arrive. Scare off the civilians and begin doing stuff. No one knows who these people were. No one knows what they were doing.

Not a very organised conspiracy obviously.

Dazed · 11th August 2006, 06:51 AM

lol.. Good responses. I guess maybe the images just aren't really in the right chronological order.

As far as 9/11 conspiracies go, this one was news to me so I wanted to hear some other thoughts on it.

kookbreaker · 11th August 2006, 07:15 AM

Quote:

No one knows who these people were. No one knows what they were doing.

"nobody knows...who dey were..or....what dey wer dooing" -Spinal Tap

brodski · 11th August 2006, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

"nobody knows...who dey were..or....what dey wer dooing" -Spinal Tap

So what you're saying is that the twin towers where actually scale models, only 1450 inches tall?

kookbreaker · 11th August 2006, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by brodski

So what you're saying is that the twin towers where actually scale models, only 1450 inches tall?

The new theory is that they were crushed by dwarves.

Pardalis · 11th August 2006, 10:53 AM

Dazed, how can you tell the chronology of these pictures for certain?

Killtown · 13th August 2006, 12:33 PM

There is a reason there is no smoke from a 757 crash there.

blutoski · 13th August 2006, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by Dazed

I noticed this over at the loose change forums, I was curious what the reactions of veteran skeptics would be.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=9979

The key point here being, no smoke in the earlier pictures, much smoke in the later pictures, localized in an area where a guy is doing.. something.

The poster didn't mention it, but "bob" seems to be carrying something.

The last poster on the forum provided the contact info for the photographer. I'd email him and ask if these are in sequence.

Crazy Chainsaw · 13th August 2006, 05:43 PM

TV cameras almost always get there before the investigators, and the men in the first photo are not civilians, Civilians do not wear hard hats to a plane crash.
They are assessing the crash to see how to investigate it best.

10th August 2006, 05:36 AM	#1
Dazed Muse Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 586	Debunk please I noticed this over at the loose change forums, I was curious what the reactions of veteran skeptics would be. http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=9979 The key point here being, no smoke in the earlier pictures, much smoke in the later pictures, localized in an area where a guy is doing.. something. The poster didn't mention it, but "bob" seems to be carrying something.
Dazed Muse Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 586

10th August 2006, 05:44 AM	#2
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,177	The smoke looks pretty thin and something like you'd get from a power tool like a chainsaw. The thickest smoke could easily be some other piece of equipment at work. Sorry, no 'smoking gun' here.
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,177	__________________ Thanks for helping me win Best Children's Gifts and Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011 & 2012! Spectrum Scientifics - My store - Google it people!

10th August 2006, 05:47 AM	#3
Dazed Muse Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 586	Power tool? That's supposed to be the smoking wreckage of the plane.
Dazed Muse Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 586

10th August 2006, 05:48 AM	#4
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,803	Well for start his first comments about "civilians arrive first"... he seems not to have noticed the man in the white "investigation" suit in the first photo.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

10th August 2006, 05:58 AM	#6
Dazed Muse Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 586	That's what they look like to me too. So you think the absense of smoke turning into the presence of smoke was caused by unearthing part of the plane that was buried. Any other theories?
Dazed Muse Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 586

10th August 2006, 05:51 AM	#5
Shrinker Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,037	Originally Posted by Dazed I noticed this over at the loose change forums, I was curious what the reactions of veteran skeptics would be. http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=9979 The key point here being, no smoke in the earlier pictures, much smoke in the later pictures, localized in an area where a guy is doing.. something. The poster didn't mention it, but "bob" seems to be carrying something. No, this is very suspicious. It's well known that when planting evidence secret agents wear bright yellow suits to make sure their actions go unnoticed. Maybe there was something very hot underground. When one of the guys moved some earth or whatever, oxygen was able to get in and things began to burn. However, I'm not an expert in uderground fires. I noticed this quote from the post "No one knows who these people were. No one knows what they were doing." Did he ask everyone? I suspect what he really mean is that he doesn't know who they were. To me, they look an awful lot like an air crash investigation team.

10th August 2006, 06:01 AM	#7
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,693	Ask the guy why the fire department chops the hell out of your house and keeps wetting it long after the fire appears to be out.
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

10th August 2006, 06:04 AM	#8
Shrinker Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,037	Originally Posted by Dazed That's what they look like to me too. So you think the absense of smoke turning into the presence of smoke was caused by unearthing part of the plane that was buried. Any other theories? No, I said 'maybe'. I don't know anything about plane crashes so I'm not making any claims. It is however a reasonably possibility IMO, so I don't see the photos as suspicious.

10th August 2006, 06:09 AM	#9
Dazed Muse Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 586	I know, I'm taking your 'maybe' as one possible explanation, and inviting others.
Dazed Muse Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 586

10th August 2006, 04:34 PM	#10
defaultdotxbe Drunken Shikigami Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Dark Side of the Sun Posts: 7,482	just tossing this out there but by what method was it determined that this was the correct chronological order? and why would MiBs (or MiW+Ys in this case) allow someone to stand there and photograph them planting evidence and starting fires? why would they have to? why couldnt they just crash another remotely controlled 757?
	__________________ I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -Albert Einstein

10th August 2006, 04:59 PM	#11
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Waiting Long Enough By The River Posts: 17,897	Originally Posted by Dazed I know, I'm taking your 'maybe' as one possible explanation, and inviting others. Well, in the real world, everyone knows that raking up a fire stirs up smoke. Now let's turn to the alternate reality of the Consipracy Theory. In this magic land, that little bit of smoke was faked. Why? The Great Big Evil Conspiracy has knocked down the Twin Towers, they've attacked the Pentagon, they've killed thousands of people --- and now, to put a final seal on their trail of destruction, they're going to make a tiny little plume of smoke rise? And so desperate are they to do this that they still carry out this fiendish plan while people stand there taking photographs of them doing it. How do you account for this? I can account for it by a fact which I should have thought was known to everyone --- but how do you account for it?

10th August 2006, 05:03 PM	#12
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,127	Originally Posted by Dr Adequate The Great Big Evil Conspiracy has knocked down the Twin Towers, they've attacked the Pentagon, they've killed thousands of people --- and now, to put a final seal on their trail of destruction, they're going to make a tiny little plume of smoke rise? And so desperate are they to do this that they still carry out this fiendish plan while people stand there taking photographs of them doing it. You've got to hand it to them... At least the CTers are consistant. -Andrew
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

10th August 2006, 05:23 PM	#13
.13. Muse Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 570	Originally Posted by Darat Well for start his first comments about "civilians arrive first"... he seems not to have noticed the man in the white "investigation" suit in the first photo. Also the "civilians" who are not wearing an "investigation" suit seem to wear hardhats.
.13. Muse Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 570

10th August 2006, 05:43 PM	#14
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 10,443	Originally Posted by .13. Also the "civilians" who are not wearing an "investigation" suit seem to wear hardhats. 1. What tells the poster over at LC that he's got the sequential order of the photos correct? 2. If they'd done what Uncle Fetzer suggested (dug a ten foot hole in the ground, dumped some trash in it and blowed it up), wouldn't they also have started the fires prior to the photographers arriving? Hey, I'm just asking questions.
	__________________ My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

10th August 2006, 06:34 PM	#15
.13. Muse Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 570	Originally Posted by Brainster 2. If they'd done what Uncle Fetzer suggested (dug a ten foot hole in the ground, dumped some trash in it and blowed it up), wouldn't they also have started the fires prior to the photographers arriving? Hey, I'm just asking questions. Inept subcontractors probably forgot to bury the explosives to the crash site. Since there were no explosives in the ground, the plane had to be diverted and it dissapeared. Everyone knows one can't fake a real fake plane crash without controlled demolition. So they ended up hastily improvising.
.13. Muse Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 570

11th August 2006, 06:03 AM	#16
negativ Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: the land of make-believe Posts: 1,905	I know when I'm forging a crime scene, I always stand around and let AP photogs shoot the rehearsal. Edit: And I'm STILL not banned over there. I wonder if they met their banning quota for this month, or what?

11th August 2006, 06:49 AM	#17
Cuddles Decoy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land full of pink fluffy sheeps and bunnies Posts: 16,597	Quote: Yellow and white suited people arrive. Scare off the civilians and begin doing stuff. No one knows who these people were. No one knows what they were doing. Not a very organised conspiracy obviously.
	__________________ I am not a little teapot.

11th August 2006, 06:51 AM	#18
Dazed Muse Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 586	lol.. Good responses. I guess maybe the images just aren't really in the right chronological order. As far as 9/11 conspiracies go, this one was news to me so I wanted to hear some other thoughts on it.
Dazed Muse Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 586

11th August 2006, 07:15 AM	#19
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,177	Quote: No one knows who these people were. No one knows what they were doing. "nobody knows...who dey were..or....what dey wer dooing" -Spinal Tap
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,177	__________________ Thanks for helping me win Best Children's Gifts and Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011 & 2012! Spectrum Scientifics - My store - Google it people!

11th August 2006, 07:22 AM	#20
brodski Tea-Time toad Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 15,089	Originally Posted by kookbreaker "nobody knows...who dey were..or....what dey wer dooing" -Spinal Tap So what you're saying is that the twin towers where actually scale models, only 1450 inches tall?
brodski Tea-Time toad Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 15,089

11th August 2006, 07:58 AM	#21
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,177	Originally Posted by brodski So what you're saying is that the twin towers where actually scale models, only 1450 inches tall? The new theory is that they were crushed by dwarves.
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,177	__________________ Thanks for helping me win Best Children's Gifts and Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011 & 2012! Spectrum Scientifics - My store - Google it people!

11th August 2006, 10:53 AM	#22
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Dazed, how can you tell the chronology of these pictures for certain?

13th August 2006, 12:33 PM	#23
Killtown Banned Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,393	There is a reason there is no smoke from a 757 crash there.
Killtown Banned Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,393

13th August 2006, 04:11 PM	#24
blutoski Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 5,991	Originally Posted by Dazed I noticed this over at the loose change forums, I was curious what the reactions of veteran skeptics would be. http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=9979 The key point here being, no smoke in the earlier pictures, much smoke in the later pictures, localized in an area where a guy is doing.. something. The poster didn't mention it, but "bob" seems to be carrying something. The last poster on the forum provided the contact info for the photographer. I'd email him and ask if these are in sequence.
	__________________ "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

13th August 2006, 05:43 PM	#25
Crazy Chainsaw Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,126	TV cameras almost always get there before the investigators, and the men in the first photo are not civilians, Civilians do not wear hard hats to a plane crash. They are assessing the crash to see how to investigate it best.