How come humans are so much different than any other species

born · 12th August 2006, 01:36 AM

How come we human species are so much different than any other species on the planet in that we alter the planet, and everything on it, and use what is on planet earth to make new substances. No other species does that.
As far as I know every other species on the planet uses only the materials present. They do not invent new ones.
We are the only species with a technological understanding.
How come we are so different. Do any other species build transporting apparatus to move about? Does any other species even cook their food? How come we decided to be different?
What say we came from somewhere else. Or maybe the aliens really did come down and play with our DNA. Maybe God made us different.
Does it really seem a cut and dry argument that we just simply evolved differently, and that's all there is to it?
What is your opinion?

Soapy Sam · 12th August 2006, 03:09 AM

Neural complexity.
Given the assumption that consciousness is a reasonably likely outcome of sufficient neural complexity, there had to be a first time for it to happen on this planet. We happened to be first, is all. We are therefore first to do the things it enables animals to do.
We may not be the last. Latecomers may have it harder, because we burned all the coal and petroleum and of course they must compete with the incumbents.

If we subscribe to the "arms race" model of evolution, we developed a secret weapon which gave us a huge advantage over the competition. Could be the competition was simultaneously developing it , but fell a little behind, which was a little too far. You don't see many Neanderthals around these days for example. As a species, we are successful. As a genus, Homo is down to a single species from the glory days of the Pleistocene.

Anyway, I'm not sure we are so unique. The largest artificial structure on the planet is built by corals. Termite mounds do a pretty good job of environmental control and are immense by the scale of the builders.

Mojo · 12th August 2006, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by born

How come we human species are so much different than any other species on the planet in that we alter the planet, and everything on it, and use what is on planet earth to make new substances. No other species does that.
As far as I know every other species on the planet uses only the materials present. They do not invent new ones.
We are the only species with a technological understanding.
How come we are so different. Do any other species build transporting apparatus to move about? Does any other species even cook their food? How come we decided to be different?
What say we came from somewhere else. Or maybe the aliens really did come down and play with our DNA. Maybe God made us different.
Does it really seem a cut and dry argument that we just simply evolved differently, and that's all there is to it?
What is your opinion?

We're smarter than other species, and crucially we have developed the ability to use language and symbols, but that is the only significant difference between us and other species. Our DNA isn't so different from that of a chimp, for example.

I don't think there's any conspiracy involved.

Soapy Sam · 12th August 2006, 03:53 AM

Conspiracy? Now there's a thought! That last Ice Age ended rather abruptly.
It's almost as if someone used explosives on the glaciers...

Gravy · 12th August 2006, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by born

Does any other species even cook their food?

Yes. I've had some meals in the cafeteria at the University of Arkansas Medical Center that were definitely not made by humans.

Rasmus · 12th August 2006, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by born

As far as I know every other species on the planet uses only the materials present. They do not invent new ones.

Wasps make paper, don't they? And Bees produce wax.

Quote:

We are the only species with a technological understanding.

Many species of animals have been observed to use tools.

Quote:

How come we are so different.

We aren't really that much different, I think. We just have a little more smarts so we can do more of many things that other animals do, ands do it in more complex ways.

Quote:

Do any other species build transporting apparatus to move about?

Not as far as i know, no. But for how long did humans not do that? And were they any less human before that? I think that is another key difference. After becoming more intelligent, we had a couple of thousand years of thinking up new stuff.

Quote:

Does any other species even cook their food?

No, but I am sure it wouldn't take long after some animal learned how to control fire.

Quote:

How come we decided to be different?

No decision, just dumb luck. Literally - we only ended up smarter because we got lucky - then we turned out to be different.

Quote:

What say we came from somewhere else. Or maybe the aliens really did come down and play with our DNA. Maybe God made us different.

If it can be done just by playing with our DNA, then it could have happened all by itself. (wasn't there a southpark episode where it turned out that it was a major joke on some TV show that we had so many different species on one planet?)

Quote:

Does it really seem a cut and dry argument that we just simply evolved differently, and that's all there is to it?

Yes, why ever not? After all, our DNA is not different from any other known DNA on the planet. It's all the same chemicals, all the same mechanisms and all the same principles involved. It's just a different order of molecuels between different species. We simply do not stand out in a significant way.

We're just smarter. We are probably the smartest species on the planet - but someone had to be the smartest. Being smarter than anyother species isn't special. dogs are smarter than worms, dolphins are smarter than fish, Elephants are smarter than bugs, etc. etc.

It is not at all special that someone would come out on top. It is also not very suprising that being smart turned out to be a good competitive edge in many areas. We're just very experienced in being a little smarter and making good use of it. That's why you see so much of it in everyday live.

(Also, you are looking at a species that has a big variety of degrees of smartness. A few people are incredibly dumb, a few are incredibly intelligent, and there is a lot of middle ground. Granted, no chimp could have invented a computer - but face it, most humans couldn't have done it, either.)

Beady · 12th August 2006, 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

Wasps make paper, don't they? And Bees produce wax.

Don't some ants essentialy mix a form of concrete, out of which they build their ant hills?

Quote:

We aren't really that much different, I think. We just have a little more smarts...

Smarts? Well, that's up for debate. Physically, though, our hairlessness, bipedalism and brain complexity are our only distinguishing features, and that final item is our only real advantage. Bipedalism allows us to handle weapons, but weapon-wielding usually only comes into play when brain complexity alone isn't up to the situation. Pound for pound we are the weakest, least dexterous and most vulnerable of the primates, and I really can't think of an analogue to us in any of the other orders; they seem to have died out, if they ever existed.

Ririon · 12th August 2006, 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

...
I don't think there's any conspiracy involved.

Sounds like Yet Another ID Thread to me. The real question that nobody apparently dares to ask, is: "How come giraffes are so much different than any other species?"

Mojo · 12th August 2006, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by Ririon

Sounds like Yet Another ID Thread to me. The real question that nobody apparently dares to ask, is: "How come giraffes are so much different than any other species?"

And what are they up to?

bob_kark · 12th August 2006, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by Beady

Don't some ants essentialy mix a form of concrete, out of which they build their ant hills?

Smarts? Well, that's up for debate. Physically, though, our hairlessness, bipedalism and brain complexity are our only distinguishing features, and that final item is our only real advantage. Bipedalism allows us to handle weapons, but weapon-wielding usually only comes into play when brain complexity alone isn't up to the situation. Pound for pound we are the weakest, least dexterous and most vulnerable of the primates, and I really can't think of an analogue to us in any of the other orders; they seem to have died out, if they ever existed.

Don't forget our fully opposable thumb. Which is only rivaled by dolphins.

Beerina · 12th August 2006, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by Gravy

Yes. I've had some meals in the cafeteria at the University of Arkansas Medical Center that were definitely not made by humans.

Though the meats may look like something made of humans...

StewartP · 12th August 2006, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by bob_kark

Don't forget our fully opposable thumb.

Feeding time for our cats and dogs, and I'm surrounded by wagging tails and mews, I look down on them and laugh.
Mwah ha ha ha! I have the opposable thumb! I can operate the can opener!

No really us hominids have had a few evolutionary lucky breaks that makes us multi-nichingTM Opposable Thumb, Flat Feet (with Tilted Pelvis and Massive Gluteus Maximus) for upright walking and Big Brain.

Kurt Vonnegut's excellent novel Galapagos has his characters big brains making them do stupid things. Vonnegut's take was that our big brains are an evolutionary disaster.

Z · 12th August 2006, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by born

As far as I know every other species on the planet uses only the materials present. They do not invent new ones.

Not entirely true. Some wasps make paper for construction purposes. Bees make wax. Spiders make silk.

Quote:

We are the only species with a technological understanding.

At best, maybe an advanced technological understanding - several species are tool users, engineers, etc. Their technology is primitive but does exist.

Quote:

Do any other species build transporting apparatus to move about?

Actually, some insects have been known to make sailing apparatus and floating apparatus. There's a species of spider that makes itself a diving bell for underwater operations.

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Does any other species even cook their food?

If by 'cook' you mean 'burn and scorch', then no, because most animals haven't mastered fire yet. However, a number of species have been known to prepare their foods in different ways - coastal carnivores soaking their fresh kills in the ocean, etc.

Brainache · 12th August 2006, 07:25 AM

An excellent novel on this subject is "Evolution" by Stephen Baxter.
It is quite long, but it does attempt to tell the whole story of Human evolution from the first primates 60 million years ago, right up to the present day and beyond.
A bit like the Vonnegut book, in the future, big brains may not be such an advantage.

Beady · 12th August 2006, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by bob_kark

Don't forget our fully opposable thumb.

How do our two opposable thumbs differentiate us from and/or give us an advantage over the four opposable thumbs of the other primates?

bob_kark · 12th August 2006, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by Beady

How do our two opposable thumbs differentiate us from and/or give us an advantage over the four opposable thumbs of the other primates?

Just as our brain is more complex than that of primates, our opposable thumb is more dexterous than those of the primates.

NobbyNobbs · 12th August 2006, 09:33 AM

Because if it wasn't us, it's be some other species. And then we'd be sitting in the dens we hollowed out under the tree roots, wondering, "Why do the cockroaches get it so good?"

Beady · 12th August 2006, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by bob_kark

Just as our brain is more complex than that of primates, our opposable thumb is more dexterous than those of the primates.

If true, I really doubt that it would matter all that much. The other primates are certainly physically capable of manipulating most tools which would have existed up to the 20th century.

kevin · 12th August 2006, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by bob_kark

Just as our brain is more complex than that of primates, our opposable thumb is more dexterous than those of the primates.

yes, but other primates have toes that are way more opposable than ours.

bob_kark · 12th August 2006, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Beady

If true, I really doubt that it would matter all that much. The other primates are certainly physically capable of manipulating most tools which would have existed up to the 20th century.

Manipulating, sure. Using them properly, in fact creating them to begin with would become quite difficult. Could you imagine attempting to create a watch without full use of your thumb? It may be possible, but it would be extremely difficult and would limit production. Would we still have formed a civilization without fully opposable thumbs? Sure, it simply wouldn't have been as great.

bob_kark · 12th August 2006, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by kevin

yes, but other primates have toes that are way more opposable than ours.

Those lucky SOBs... I want to swing by my toes too!

Wowbagger · 12th August 2006, 10:13 AM

My contribution to the discussion would be: our "plastic" brain, meaning a brain whose synaptic mapping is more pliable to environment and experience than any other animals. It is this plasticity that allows memes to infiltrate our mannerisms, and our mannerisms to infiltrate others in the form of memes. It is the memes that allow us to appear so much "smarter" than the other animals.

But, I also like a lot of other answers folks offered here. Especially Ramus and all who have contributed similar information.

I was originally going to say "God Given Soul", but I see now how ridiculous that would have been.

aggle-rithm · 12th August 2006, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by born

How come we human species are so much different than any other species on the planet in that we alter the planet, and everything on it, and use what is on planet earth to make new substances. No other species does that.
As far as I know every other species on the planet uses only the materials present. They do not invent new ones.
We are the only species with a technological understanding.
How come we are so different. Do any other species build transporting apparatus to move about? Does any other species even cook their food? How come we decided to be different?
What say we came from somewhere else. Or maybe the aliens really did come down and play with our DNA. Maybe God made us different.
Does it really seem a cut and dry argument that we just simply evolved differently, and that's all there is to it?
What is your opinion?

Actually, there were two others. Just 100,000 years ago there were three species of humans, and it had been the norm for several million years that there were several species of proto-humans sharing the planet at a time. I guess we just edged out the Neanderthals and the Homo erecti, and have had the planet to ourselves for a while now. But just a little while, in geological time.

Outhere · 12th August 2006, 06:33 PM

Other creatures have all they need to survive as is, right out of the kit. Humans do not. We have a long infancy that leaves us vulnerable. Our senses of sight, hearing and smell are inferior to almost every other species; we can't run as fast, leap as high. You might say that human inventions came about because we were aware enough to recognize our deficiencies and try to compensate for them. Take away our tools now and how long would we last?

fuelair · 12th August 2006, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by born

How come we human species are so much different than any other species on the planet in that we alter the planet, and everything on it, and use what is on planet earth to make new substances. No other species does that.
As far as I know every other species on the planet uses only the materials present. They do not invent new ones.
We are the only species with a technological understanding.
How come we are so different. Do any other species build transporting apparatus to move about? Does any other species even cook their food? How come we decided to be different?
What say we came from somewhere else. Or maybe the aliens really did come down and play with our DNA. Maybe God made us different.
Does it really seem a cut and dry argument that we just simply evolved differently, and that's all there is to it?
What is your opinion?

Brains, thumbs, ability to make good use of both on occasion.

The Atheist · 12th August 2006, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by born

How come we human species are so much different than any other species on the planet in that we alter the planet, and everything on it, and use what is on planet earth to make new substances.

First off, along with the animals mentioned so far, there are a fair number of plants which produce new substances & chemicals, some more efficiently than we do yet.

As to altering the planet, humans have only made planetary alterations over the past few thousand years - a minscule time in evolutionary terms. Dinosaurs may well have made as many changes to the planet as we have so far, and surely plants have done so.

I'm more interested in finding out why we are the only mammalian species to use tools for attacking members of our own species.

gumboot · 12th August 2006, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I'm more interested in finding out why we are the only mammalian species to use tools for attacking members of our own species.

Because of that big black rock thing...

-Andrew

Kaarjuus · 13th August 2006, 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I'm more interested in finding out why we are the only mammalian species to use tools for attacking members of our own species.

Are we?

Mojo · 13th August 2006, 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by StewartP

Feeding time for our cats and dogs, and I'm surrounded by wagging tails and mews, I look down on them and laugh.
Mwah ha ha ha! I have the opposable thumb! I can operate the can opener!

But note that, despite their lack of opposable thumbs, the cats and dogs are gaining access to the food.

Food that you paid for.

Beady · 13th August 2006, 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by bob_kark

Manipulating, sure. Using them properly, in fact creating them to begin with would become quite difficult. Could you imagine attempting to create a watch without full use of your thumb?

First, I said "most."

2nd, Humanity did just fine without watches for several thousand years.

3rd, Invention and proper use are functions of brain complexity, not dexterity.

There is absolutely no physical reason why, given human brains in, say, gorilla bodies, most things of actual human history up to the middle of the 19th century could not have been built. Beyond that is more problematic. This includes the tools it would take to build them.

Quote:

Would we still have formed a civilization without fully opposable thumbs? Sure, it simply wouldn't have been as great.

Prove it.

StewartP · 13th August 2006, 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

But note that, despite their lack of opposable thumbs, the cats and dogs are gaining access to the food.

Food that you paid for.

It's worse than that.

We then go around picking up all the dog and cat ****

Surely evolution gone wrong.

gumboot · 13th August 2006, 05:34 AM

Evolution is really very simple.

The most excellent summary can be found here:

Quote:

<ajax> Some people...have the idea that evolution is a ******* system of...
<ajax> "oh i need flippers, i'd better grow some" type *********. :P
<ajax> It's more like "Oh **** look at that freak over there with the flippers hahaha OH **** I AM DROWNING OH GOD SAVE ME FLIPPER BOY".

Next week... l33t sp34k Shakespeare...

-Andrew

Rasmus · 13th August 2006, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by bob_kark

Manipulating, sure. Using them properly, in fact creating them to begin with would become quite difficult. Could you imagine attempting to create a watch without full use of your thumb?

Yes, easily, even. Of course the thumb is a great advantage, but being able to grab stuff with a hand that I don't need to stand and walk on is the important bit.

Of course, we now live in a civilisation that is based on us having the thumbs we have, but if we didn't things would look slightly different.

Quote:

It may be possible, but it would be extremely difficult and would limit production.

It would be extremely difficult for us, since we are used to having a thumb, and it would limit production in our world, where all our tools are build for people with working thumbs.

Imagine a civilisation of humans with functional tails; their world might well be build around their abilities - but do you think it would be so much better or more advanced than ours?

Quote:

Would we still have formed a civilization without fully opposable thumbs? Sure, it simply wouldn't have been as great.

My guess is, it would be different. It might even be greater, too, though. Think of all the cool inventions that might have followed the necessity of building stuff that can only be used without thumbs.

http://www.independencenow.com/ibot/balance.html

Makes me wonder what else you could do with the technology, and what things would be like if it had been around for 20+ years.

Come to think of it, we only have computers because we're bad at doing maths ...

mommyrex · 13th August 2006, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by born

Does it really seem a cut and dry argument that we just simply evolved differently, and that's all there is to it?
What is your opinion?

Yes, it is that cut and dried. Being the brainy ones is our niche. Brains are extremely useful for survival, and once we headed down the path to bigger, better ones, it makes sense that the best thinking would be selected for, in multiple iterations.

We lack many useful adaptations of other species (the camel's water reserves, the skunk's mace, the aye-aye's funky, long, bony finger-tool, just to name a few). But the brain is trump, and has allowed us to "artificially" pursue the adaptations we desire, and to dominate the world.

It bugs me when people consider humans apart from the rest of nature. Sure, the products of our industry are "artificial", but ultimately, we are creeping things, using what's here to satisfy our drives. Granted, the extreme to which we use what's here, and the impact we have, are thrilling to contemplate. But the superlatives don't make us something "beyond" nature.

mommyrex · 13th August 2006, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by gumboot

Next week... l33t sp34k Shakespeare...

Might I suggest "What a piece of work is man"?

12th August 2006, 01:36 AM	#1
born Scholar Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 121	How come humans are so much different than any other species How come we human species are so much different than any other species on the planet in that we alter the planet, and everything on it, and use what is on planet earth to make new substances. No other species does that. As far as I know every other species on the planet uses only the materials present. They do not invent new ones. We are the only species with a technological understanding. How come we are so different. Do any other species build transporting apparatus to move about? Does any other species even cook their food? How come we decided to be different? What say we came from somewhere else. Or maybe the aliens really did come down and play with our DNA. Maybe God made us different. Does it really seem a cut and dry argument that we just simply evolved differently, and that's all there is to it? What is your opinion?
born Scholar Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 121

12th August 2006, 03:09 AM	#2
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Neural complexity. Given the assumption that consciousness is a reasonably likely outcome of sufficient neural complexity, there had to be a first time for it to happen on this planet. We happened to be first, is all. We are therefore first to do the things it enables animals to do. We may not be the last. Latecomers may have it harder, because we burned all the coal and petroleum and of course they must compete with the incumbents. If we subscribe to the "arms race" model of evolution, we developed a secret weapon which gave us a huge advantage over the competition. Could be the competition was simultaneously developing it , but fell a little behind, which was a little too far. You don't see many Neanderthals around these days for example. As a species, we are successful. As a genus, Homo is down to a single species from the glory days of the Pleistocene. Anyway, I'm not sure we are so unique. The largest artificial structure on the planet is built by corals. Termite mounds do a pretty good job of environmental control and are immense by the scale of the builders.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

12th August 2006, 03:32 AM	#3
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,089	Originally Posted by born How come we human species are so much different than any other species on the planet in that we alter the planet, and everything on it, and use what is on planet earth to make new substances. No other species does that. As far as I know every other species on the planet uses only the materials present. They do not invent new ones. We are the only species with a technological understanding. How come we are so different. Do any other species build transporting apparatus to move about? Does any other species even cook their food? How come we decided to be different? What say we came from somewhere else. Or maybe the aliens really did come down and play with our DNA. Maybe God made us different. Does it really seem a cut and dry argument that we just simply evolved differently, and that's all there is to it? What is your opinion? We're smarter than other species, and crucially we have developed the ability to use language and symbols, but that is the only significant difference between us and other species. Our DNA isn't so different from that of a chimp, for example. I don't think there's any conspiracy involved.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

12th August 2006, 03:53 AM	#4
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Conspiracy? Now there's a thought! That last Ice Age ended rather abruptly. It's almost as if someone used explosives on the glaciers...
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

12th August 2006, 04:00 AM	#5
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,136	Originally Posted by born Does any other species even cook their food? Yes. I've had some meals in the cafeteria at the University of Arkansas Medical Center that were definitely not made by humans.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

12th August 2006, 04:38 AM	#6
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by born As far as I know every other species on the planet uses only the materials present. They do not invent new ones. Wasps make paper, don't they? And Bees produce wax. Quote: We are the only species with a technological understanding. Many species of animals have been observed to use tools. Quote: How come we are so different. We aren't really that much different, I think. We just have a little more smarts so we can do more of many things that other animals do, ands do it in more complex ways. Quote: Do any other species build transporting apparatus to move about? Not as far as i know, no. But for how long did humans not do that? And were they any less human before that? I think that is another key difference. After becoming more intelligent, we had a couple of thousand years of thinking up new stuff. Quote: Does any other species even cook their food? No, but I am sure it wouldn't take long after some animal learned how to control fire. Quote: How come we decided to be different? No decision, just dumb luck. Literally - we only ended up smarter because we got lucky - then we turned out to be different. Quote: What say we came from somewhere else. Or maybe the aliens really did come down and play with our DNA. Maybe God made us different. If it can be done just by playing with our DNA, then it could have happened all by itself. (wasn't there a southpark episode where it turned out that it was a major joke on some TV show that we had so many different species on one planet?) Quote: Does it really seem a cut and dry argument that we just simply evolved differently, and that's all there is to it? Yes, why ever not? After all, our DNA is not different from any other known DNA on the planet. It's all the same chemicals, all the same mechanisms and all the same principles involved. It's just a different order of molecuels between different species. We simply do not stand out in a significant way. We're just smarter. We are probably the smartest species on the planet - but someone had to be the smartest. Being smarter than anyother species isn't special. dogs are smarter than worms, dolphins are smarter than fish, Elephants are smarter than bugs, etc. etc. It is not at all special that someone would come out on top. It is also not very suprising that being smart turned out to be a good competitive edge in many areas. We're just very experienced in being a little smarter and making good use of it. That's why you see so much of it in everyday live. (Also, you are looking at a species that has a big variety of degrees of smartness. A few people are incredibly dumb, a few are incredibly intelligent, and there is a lot of middle ground. Granted, no chimp could have invented a computer - but face it, most humans couldn't have done it, either.)
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138

12th August 2006, 04:56 AM	#7
Beady Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: 44:57:19N, 73:16:18W Posts: 5,490	Originally Posted by Rasmus Wasps make paper, don't they? And Bees produce wax. Don't some ants essentialy mix a form of concrete, out of which they build their ant hills? Quote: We aren't really that much different, I think. We just have a little more smarts... Smarts? Well, that's up for debate. Physically, though, our hairlessness, bipedalism and brain complexity are our only distinguishing features, and that final item is our only real advantage. Bipedalism allows us to handle weapons, but weapon-wielding usually only comes into play when brain complexity alone isn't up to the situation. Pound for pound we are the weakest, least dexterous and most vulnerable of the primates, and I really can't think of an analogue to us in any of the other orders; they seem to have died out, if they ever existed.
	__________________ I tolerate with utmost latitude the right of others to differ with me in opinion without imputing to them criminality. I know too well all the weaknesses and uncertainty of human reason to wonder at its different results. -- Thomas Jefferson Last edited by Beady; 12th August 2006 at 05:01 AM.

12th August 2006, 05:06 AM	#8
Ririon Cool cat Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Trondheim, Norway Posts: 2,063	Originally Posted by Mojo ... I don't think there's any conspiracy involved. Sounds like Yet Another ID Thread to me. The real question that nobody apparently dares to ask, is: "How come giraffes are so much different than any other species?"
	__________________ Engineer by day, scientist by night.

12th August 2006, 05:09 AM	#9
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,089	Originally Posted by Ririon Sounds like Yet Another ID Thread to me. The real question that nobody apparently dares to ask, is: "How come giraffes are so much different than any other species?" And what are they up to?
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

12th August 2006, 05:19 AM	#10
bob_kark Person of Hench Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Globalist H.Q., 25th floor, 5th room on the right. Posts: 4,098	Originally Posted by Beady Don't some ants essentialy mix a form of concrete, out of which they build their ant hills? Smarts? Well, that's up for debate. Physically, though, our hairlessness, bipedalism and brain complexity are our only distinguishing features, and that final item is our only real advantage. Bipedalism allows us to handle weapons, but weapon-wielding usually only comes into play when brain complexity alone isn't up to the situation. Pound for pound we are the weakest, least dexterous and most vulnerable of the primates, and I really can't think of an analogue to us in any of the other orders; they seem to have died out, if they ever existed. Don't forget our fully opposable thumb. Which is only rivaled by dolphins.
	__________________ "You may balk at this, but bob_kark's argument that all major world powers are controlled by a covert group of "insiders" is hopelessly flawed and totally circuitous." - Shemp

12th August 2006, 05:34 AM	#11
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by Gravy Yes. I've had some meals in the cafeteria at the University of Arkansas Medical Center that were definitely not made by humans. Though the meats may look like something made of humans...
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

12th August 2006, 06:54 AM	#12
StewartP Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Angouleme, France Posts: 449	Originally Posted by bob_kark Don't forget our fully opposable thumb. Feeding time for our cats and dogs, and I'm surrounded by wagging tails and mews, I look down on them and laugh. Mwah ha ha ha! I have the opposable thumb! I can operate the can opener! No really us hominids have had a few evolutionary lucky breaks that makes us multi-nichingTM Opposable Thumb, Flat Feet (with Tilted Pelvis and Massive Gluteus Maximus) for upright walking and Big Brain. Kurt Vonnegut's excellent novel Galapagos has his characters big brains making them do stupid things. Vonnegut's take was that our big brains are an evolutionary disaster.
	__________________ A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana. Groucho Marx

12th August 2006, 07:09 AM	#13
Z D.D.D. Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: In a den in my lair, on the edge of your mind. Posts: 9,166	Originally Posted by born As far as I know every other species on the planet uses only the materials present. They do not invent new ones. Not entirely true. Some wasps make paper for construction purposes. Bees make wax. Spiders make silk. Quote: We are the only species with a technological understanding. At best, maybe an advanced technological understanding - several species are tool users, engineers, etc. Their technology is primitive but does exist. Quote: Do any other species build transporting apparatus to move about? Actually, some insects have been known to make sailing apparatus and floating apparatus. There's a species of spider that makes itself a diving bell for underwater operations. Quote: Does any other species even cook their food? If by 'cook' you mean 'burn and scorch', then no, because most animals haven't mastered fire yet. However, a number of species have been known to prepare their foods in different ways - coastal carnivores soaking their fresh kills in the ocean, etc.
	__________________ Merry Yarglemas!

12th August 2006, 07:25 AM	#14
Brainache Nasty Brutish and Tall Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Knob Hill. Posts: 9,086	An excellent novel on this subject is "Evolution" by Stephen Baxter. It is quite long, but it does attempt to tell the whole story of Human evolution from the first primates 60 million years ago, right up to the present day and beyond. A bit like the Vonnegut book, in the future, big brains may not be such an advantage.

12th August 2006, 08:19 AM	#15
Beady Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: 44:57:19N, 73:16:18W Posts: 5,490	Originally Posted by bob_kark Don't forget our fully opposable thumb. How do our two opposable thumbs differentiate us from and/or give us an advantage over the four opposable thumbs of the other primates?
	__________________ I tolerate with utmost latitude the right of others to differ with me in opinion without imputing to them criminality. I know too well all the weaknesses and uncertainty of human reason to wonder at its different results. -- Thomas Jefferson

12th August 2006, 08:57 AM	#16
bob_kark Person of Hench Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Globalist H.Q., 25th floor, 5th room on the right. Posts: 4,098	Originally Posted by Beady How do our two opposable thumbs differentiate us from and/or give us an advantage over the four opposable thumbs of the other primates? Just as our brain is more complex than that of primates, our opposable thumb is more dexterous than those of the primates.
	__________________ "You may balk at this, but bob_kark's argument that all major world powers are controlled by a covert group of "insiders" is hopelessly flawed and totally circuitous." - Shemp

12th August 2006, 09:33 AM	#17
NobbyNobbs Gazerbeam's Protege Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: The Mended Drum Posts: 5,630	Because if it wasn't us, it's be some other species. And then we'd be sitting in the dens we hollowed out under the tree roots, wondering, "Why do the cockroaches get it so good?"
	__________________ I wish someone would find something I wrote on this board to be sig-worthy, thereby effectively granting me immortality.--Antiquehunter The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted years on earth the time spent eating butterscotch pudding. AMERICA! NUMBER 1 IN PARTICLE PHYSICS SINCE JULY 4TH, 1776!!! --SusanConstant

12th August 2006, 09:33 AM	#18
Beady Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: 44:57:19N, 73:16:18W Posts: 5,490	Originally Posted by bob_kark Just as our brain is more complex than that of primates, our opposable thumb is more dexterous than those of the primates. If true, I really doubt that it would matter all that much. The other primates are certainly physically capable of manipulating most tools which would have existed up to the 20th century.
	__________________ I tolerate with utmost latitude the right of others to differ with me in opinion without imputing to them criminality. I know too well all the weaknesses and uncertainty of human reason to wonder at its different results. -- Thomas Jefferson

12th August 2006, 09:35 AM	#19
kevin Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,666	Originally Posted by bob_kark Just as our brain is more complex than that of primates, our opposable thumb is more dexterous than those of the primates. yes, but other primates have toes that are way more opposable than ours.
kevin Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,666	__________________ Long story short, if you wanna get famous, it helps if you're taking a dump. -- RealityBites

12th August 2006, 10:02 AM	#20
bob_kark Person of Hench Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Globalist H.Q., 25th floor, 5th room on the right. Posts: 4,098	Originally Posted by Beady If true, I really doubt that it would matter all that much. The other primates are certainly physically capable of manipulating most tools which would have existed up to the 20th century. Manipulating, sure. Using them properly, in fact creating them to begin with would become quite difficult. Could you imagine attempting to create a watch without full use of your thumb? It may be possible, but it would be extremely difficult and would limit production. Would we still have formed a civilization without fully opposable thumbs? Sure, it simply wouldn't have been as great.
	__________________ "You may balk at this, but bob_kark's argument that all major world powers are controlled by a covert group of "insiders" is hopelessly flawed and totally circuitous." - Shemp

12th August 2006, 10:04 AM	#21
bob_kark Person of Hench Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Globalist H.Q., 25th floor, 5th room on the right. Posts: 4,098	Originally Posted by kevin yes, but other primates have toes that are way more opposable than ours. Those lucky SOBs... I want to swing by my toes too!
	__________________ "You may balk at this, but bob_kark's argument that all major world powers are controlled by a covert group of "insiders" is hopelessly flawed and totally circuitous." - Shemp

12th August 2006, 10:13 AM	#22
Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space) Posts: 13,519	My contribution to the discussion would be: our "plastic" brain, meaning a brain whose synaptic mapping is more pliable to environment and experience than any other animals. It is this plasticity that allows memes to infiltrate our mannerisms, and our mannerisms to infiltrate others in the form of memes. It is the memes that allow us to appear so much "smarter" than the other animals. But, I also like a lot of other answers folks offered here. Especially Ramus and all who have contributed similar information. I was originally going to say "God Given Soul", but I see now how ridiculous that would have been.
	__________________ WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where *you* could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!

12th August 2006, 05:31 PM	#23
aggle-rithm Ardent Formulist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14,149	Originally Posted by born How come we human species are so much different than any other species on the planet in that we alter the planet, and everything on it, and use what is on planet earth to make new substances. No other species does that. As far as I know every other species on the planet uses only the materials present. They do not invent new ones. We are the only species with a technological understanding. How come we are so different. Do any other species build transporting apparatus to move about? Does any other species even cook their food? How come we decided to be different? What say we came from somewhere else. Or maybe the aliens really did come down and play with our DNA. Maybe God made us different. Does it really seem a cut and dry argument that we just simply evolved differently, and that's all there is to it? What is your opinion? Actually, there were two others. Just 100,000 years ago there were three species of humans, and it had been the norm for several million years that there were several species of proto-humans sharing the planet at a time. I guess we just edged out the Neanderthals and the Homo erecti, and have had the planet to ourselves for a while now. But just a little while, in geological time.
	__________________ To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.

12th August 2006, 06:33 PM	#24
Outhere Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 145	Looking at it another way Other creatures have all they need to survive as is, right out of the kit. Humans do not. We have a long infancy that leaves us vulnerable. Our senses of sight, hearing and smell are inferior to almost every other species; we can't run as fast, leap as high. You might say that human inventions came about because we were aware enough to recognize our deficiencies and try to compensate for them. Take away our tools now and how long would we last?

12th August 2006, 07:08 PM	#25
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,911	Originally Posted by born How come we human species are so much different than any other species on the planet in that we alter the planet, and everything on it, and use what is on planet earth to make new substances. No other species does that. As far as I know every other species on the planet uses only the materials present. They do not invent new ones. We are the only species with a technological understanding. How come we are so different. Do any other species build transporting apparatus to move about? Does any other species even cook their food? How come we decided to be different? What say we came from somewhere else. Or maybe the aliens really did come down and play with our DNA. Maybe God made us different. Does it really seem a cut and dry argument that we just simply evolved differently, and that's all there is to it? What is your opinion? Brains, thumbs, ability to make good use of both on occasion.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,911

12th August 2006, 08:16 PM	#26
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,928	Originally Posted by born How come we human species are so much different than any other species on the planet in that we alter the planet, and everything on it, and use what is on planet earth to make new substances. First off, along with the animals mentioned so far, there are a fair number of plants which produce new substances & chemicals, some more efficiently than we do yet. As to altering the planet, humans have only made planetary alterations over the past few thousand years - a minscule time in evolutionary terms. Dinosaurs may well have made as many changes to the planet as we have so far, and surely plants have done so. I'm more interested in finding out why we are the only mammalian species to use tools for attacking members of our own species.
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

12th August 2006, 09:53 PM	#27
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,116	Originally Posted by The Atheist I'm more interested in finding out why we are the only mammalian species to use tools for attacking members of our own species. Because of that big black rock thing... -Andrew
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

13th August 2006, 02:01 AM	#28
Kaarjuus Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 252	Originally Posted by The Atheist I'm more interested in finding out why we are the only mammalian species to use tools for attacking members of our own species. Are we?
Kaarjuus Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 252	__________________ If you think the problem is bad now, just wait until we've solved it.

13th August 2006, 02:08 AM	#29
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,089	Originally Posted by StewartP Feeding time for our cats and dogs, and I'm surrounded by wagging tails and mews, I look down on them and laugh. Mwah ha ha ha! I have the opposable thumb! I can operate the can opener! But note that, despite their lack of opposable thumbs, the cats and dogs are gaining access to the food. Food that you paid for.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

13th August 2006, 02:57 AM	#30
Beady Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: 44:57:19N, 73:16:18W Posts: 5,490	Originally Posted by bob_kark Manipulating, sure. Using them properly, in fact creating them to begin with would become quite difficult. Could you imagine attempting to create a watch without full use of your thumb? First, I said "most." 2nd, Humanity did just fine without watches for several thousand years. 3rd, Invention and proper use are functions of brain complexity, not dexterity. There is absolutely no physical reason why, given human brains in, say, gorilla bodies, most things of actual human history up to the middle of the 19th century could not have been built. Beyond that is more problematic. This includes the tools it would take to build them. Quote: Would we still have formed a civilization without fully opposable thumbs? Sure, it simply wouldn't have been as great. Prove it.
	__________________ I tolerate with utmost latitude the right of others to differ with me in opinion without imputing to them criminality. I know too well all the weaknesses and uncertainty of human reason to wonder at its different results. -- Thomas Jefferson

13th August 2006, 02:58 AM	#31
StewartP Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Angouleme, France Posts: 449	Originally Posted by Mojo But note that, despite their lack of opposable thumbs, the cats and dogs are gaining access to the food. Food that you paid for. It's worse than that. We then go around picking up all the dog and cat **** Surely evolution gone wrong.
	__________________ A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana. Groucho Marx

13th August 2006, 05:34 AM	#32
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,116	Evolution is really very simple. The most excellent summary can be found here: Quote: <ajax> Some people...have the idea that evolution is a ***** system of... <ajax> "oh i need flippers, i'd better grow some" type *****. :P <ajax> It's more like "Oh look at that freak over there with the flippers hahaha OH ** I AM DROWNING OH GOD SAVE ME FLIPPER BOY". Next week... l33t sp34k Shakespeare... -Andrew
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

13th August 2006, 05:46 AM	#33
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by bob_kark Manipulating, sure. Using them properly, in fact creating them to begin with would become quite difficult. Could you imagine attempting to create a watch without full use of your thumb? Yes, easily, even. Of course the thumb is a great advantage, but being able to grab stuff with a hand that I don't need to stand and walk on is the important bit. Of course, we now live in a civilisation that is based on us having the thumbs we have, but if we didn't things would look slightly different. Quote: It may be possible, but it would be extremely difficult and would limit production. It would be extremely difficult for us, since we are used to having a thumb, and it would limit production in our world, where all our tools are build for people with working thumbs. Imagine a civilisation of humans with functional tails; their world might well be build around their abilities - but do you think it would be so much better or more advanced than ours? Quote: Would we still have formed a civilization without fully opposable thumbs? Sure, it simply wouldn't have been as great. My guess is, it would be different. It might even be greater, too, though. Think of all the cool inventions that might have followed the necessity of building stuff that can only be used without thumbs. http://www.independencenow.com/ibot/balance.html Makes me wonder what else you could do with the technology, and what things would be like if it had been around for 20+ years. Come to think of it, we only have computers because we're bad at doing maths ...
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138

13th August 2006, 07:38 AM	#34
mommyrex Scholar Join Date: May 2006 Location: Kansas, USA Posts: 80	Originally Posted by born Does it really seem a cut and dry argument that we just simply evolved differently, and that's all there is to it? What is your opinion? Yes, it is that cut and dried. Being the brainy ones is our niche. Brains are extremely useful for survival, and once we headed down the path to bigger, better ones, it makes sense that the best thinking would be selected for, in multiple iterations. We lack many useful adaptations of other species (the camel's water reserves, the skunk's mace, the aye-aye's funky, long, bony finger-tool, just to name a few). But the brain is trump, and has allowed us to "artificially" pursue the adaptations we desire, and to dominate the world. It bugs me when people consider humans apart from the rest of nature. Sure, the products of our industry are "artificial", but ultimately, we are creeping things, using what's here to satisfy our drives. Granted, the extreme to which we use what's here, and the impact we have, are thrilling to contemplate. But the superlatives don't make us something "beyond" nature.

13th August 2006, 07:40 AM	#35
mommyrex Scholar Join Date: May 2006 Location: Kansas, USA Posts: 80	Originally Posted by gumboot Next week... l33t sp34k Shakespeare... Might I suggest "What a piece of work is man"?