NORAD Drills

[Axiom_Blade]

I was arguing with an Alex Jones zealot today. She was at this anti-war rally, trying to give away t-shirts which she written "9-11 is an inside job" on with magic markers. (It is somewhat heartening that nobody was taking her up on her offer...)

Anyway, she threw a bunch of the most common CT arguments at me, including the one about NORAD doing drills "of the exact same type of terrorist attack" on the morning of 9-11. I know this has come up before, but I can't find anything in the threads, or at 911myths.com. Google doesn't seem too helpful, either.

So, anybody know what the story is with those NORAD drills?

P.S. Oh, yeah, apparently the Jonesians think that the gov't is going to stage another terrorist attack in October. I'm hoping that Alex makes like Jim and has his followers drink the Kool-Aid, but I'm afraid I'll be disappointed.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

The NORAD drill that day was dealing with a traditional hijacking, iirc.

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade

So, anybody know what the story is with those NORAD drills?

Ah yes.

NORAD had two major things going on that day.

The first was Operation Northern Vigilance. This was a real-world operation, involving the movement of fighter aircraft to Alaska and Canada to shadow Russian long-range bombers that were involved in an exercise in Siberia.

Basically, throughout the Cold War and into the present, when either side moves their attack force closer to the "enemy" for an exercise, the other wise will move its defence force closer in response to keep an eye on them. While the Russian operation is simply an exercise, the NATO operation is very much "real-world" (hence the "Operation" tag at the beginning).

The other thing that was going on was a yearly NORAD exercise called "Guardian". Guardian consists of two Command Post Exercises (CPXs), so often it is incorrectly identified as two different exercises.

Basically, in a CPX you get all your command post staff in their positions, but no actual aircraft take part in the operation - computers simulate troop movements instead. So when Squadron X are moved to location Z, on the computer screens at the Command Post the squadron is shown to have moved, but in reality the Squadron aren't involved at all.

The two Command Posts involved were US Strategic Command and US Space Command.

NORAD exercise codenames use two words. The first word indicates the command that is involved, and the second name indicates the type of exercise.

The names allocated to different commands are done alphabetically in letter blocks. Each exercise may have a different name, but by looking at the first two letters of the first word you can work out which command is involved.

If you look at this list you'll see what I mean.

The two parts of the Guardian exercise (that you will often heard CTers naming as two different exercises) are "Global" and "Vigilant".

In the list you'll see that block 26 GG-GL is allocated to US Strategic Command, so we know that "Global Guardian" refers to the US Strategic Command CPX.

Further down, Block 86 VG-VL is allocated to US Space Command, so we know "Vigilant Guardian" refers to the US Space Command CPX.

So, what IS Guardian?

Guardian is an exercise that tests US defences to a Russian Nuclear Attack. Most of the exercise involves the two CPs coordinating the nation's response to waves of Russian nuclear bombers and nuclear missiles.

However, they often throw in additional problems to add a bit of spice - for example an airliner coming into the US and getting hijacked. It appears that a hijacking was scheduled into the 2001 Guardian Exercise at some point.

However, it is important to remember that such a hijacking was to be conventional, and not involving ramming a building.

You will also sometimes hear an exercise called "Amalgam Warrior" mentioned, which involves Drone Aircraft. This is a "live-fly" (or "field") exercise, involving the intercept of drones by fighter aircraft.

Amalgam Warrior was held in June, 2001.

The big question is, did Guardian interfere with NORAD's response to 9/11? First, bear in mind neither Guardian, nor the real world operation I mentioned involved the 14 fighters at Ready-Alert on 7 Continential US air bases. In additional neither of these actions involved NEADS - the NORAD controllers responsible for responding to the 9/11 hijackings.

However, NORAD further indicated that the CPXs actually ENHANCED response, because all of the necessary staff were already at their seats. Normally some would not be there.

This is indicated in a quesiton to Chairman of the Joint Cheifs of Staff Richard Myers.

The transcript of that exchange can be found here:

The relevant section is quoted below:

(CMK is Representative Cynthia McKinney and RM is Richard Myers)

Quote:

31:25
CMK: The question was, we had four wargames going on on September 11th, and the question that I tried to pose before the Secretary had to go to lunch was whether or not the activities of the four wargames going on on September 11th actually impaired our ability to respond to the attacks.

RM: The answer to the question is no, it did not impair our response, in fact General Eberhart who was in the command of the North American Aerospace Defense Command as he testified in front of the 9/11 Commission I believe - I believe he told them that it enhanced our ability to respond, given that NORAD didn't have the overall responsibility for responding to the attacks that day. That was an FAA responsibility. But they were two CPXs; there was one Department of Justice exercise that didn't have anything to do with the other three; and there was an actual operation ongoing because there was some Russian bomber activity up near Alaska. So we -

So there you have it.

-Andrew

[Gravy]

Great post as always, gumboot. About the hijacking drill on 9/11: one was scheduled, but it was not run. In the recently Vanity Fair article, one of the commanders says (or says to himself) something to the effect of, "The hijacking drill isn't supposed to start for another hour."

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by Gravy

Great post as always, gumboot. About the hijacking drill on 9/11: one was scheduled, but it was not run. In the recently Vanity Fair article, one of the commanders says (or says to himself) something to the effect of, "The hijacking drill isn't supposed to start for another hour."

One thing I forgot to mention...

The ATC transcripts show just how quickly the transition from exercise to real-world was made.

The relevant portion can be found in this Vanity Fair article:

Quote:

08:37:52
BOSTON CENTER: Hi. Boston Center T.M.U. [Traffic Management Unit], we have a problem here. We have a hijacked aircraft headed towards New York, and we need you guys to, we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, help us out.
POWELL: Is this real-world or exercise?
BOSTON CENTER: No, this is not an exercise, not a test.

And it's as simple as that. These people are trained to respond very fast to any event.

-Andrew

[Killtown]

Rummy quoted "four" games going on that morning. Gen. Myers said it made our response "faster"! Can you imagine how much more embarrasingly slow we would of been if Myers words are true?

Btw, how many military/intel people got fired from their lousy performance?

[MarkyX]

Too bad none of them had anything to do with suicidal hijackers or "twenty blips" as you guys tend to say.

[Killtown]

Originally Posted by MarkyX

Too bad none of them had anything to do with suicidal hijackers or "twenty blips" as you guys tend to say.

Are you sure about that?

[Axiom_Blade]

Originally Posted by Killtown

Are you sure about that?

Dude, we can't be sure of anything. For all we know, you could actually be Bigfoot. But without evidence it's just conjecture.

Maybe Bush flew the planes himself, with the awesome power of his own mind. It may be fun to think about, but actually believing it is another thing. And putting time, effort and money into convincing others is a whole other thing.

Embarrassment over being wrong is nothing compared to wasted time.

[Killtown]

Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade

Dude, we can't be sure of anything. For all we know, you could actually be Bigfoot. But without evidence it's just conjecture.

Maybe Bush flew the planes himself, with the awesome power of his own mind. It may be fun to think about, but actually believing it is another thing. And putting time, effort and money into convincing others is a whole other thing.

Embarrassment over being wrong is nothing compared to wasted time.

Speaking of wasted time.

[Axiom_Blade]

Originally Posted by Killtown

Speaking of wasted time.

Yes?

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by Killtown

Rummy quoted "four" games going on that morning.

If you had read all of Myer's response you'd know that the "four wargames" were actually:

1) Operation Northern Vigilance (not an exercise)
2) The NRO exercise (nothing to do with NORAD)
3) and 4) Two CPXs as part of "Guardian"

-Andrew

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by Killtown

Speaking of wasted time.

Killtown knows plenty about wasting peoples' time.

[JonathanClement]

Okay, I have this one guy saying "How do you explain the COINCIDENTAL war exercises, which happen to simulate scenarios of planes going into buildings."

What should I say in response? I have a feeling that he's going to bring up something that shows the exersizes DID involve planes going into buildings.

[Firestone]

gumboot is our resident specialist in these matters.

You can look here for starters.
I'm sure gumboot (or others) will be able to answer any remaining question.

[JonathanClement]

Originally Posted by Firestone

gumboot is our resident specialist in these matters.

You can look here for starters.
I'm sure gumboot (or others) will be able to answer any remaining question.

Aw, that's too long. I need a quick response.

[lapman]

Originally Posted by JonathanClement

Aw, that's too long. I need a quick response.

Simple, there were no NORAD exercises that simulated planes being flown into buildings. The only drills that did this were performed by the Pentagon and the NSA. Both are located near airports and it would make sense to practice such drills. Neither drill dealt with a hijacked airliner that was deliberately flown into a building.

[DC]

why dont you be honest, and answer him, "I dont know"

[Viper Daimao]

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

why dont you be honest, and answer him, "I dont know"

because he wants to know.

[defaultdotxbe]

Originally Posted by lapman

The only drills that did this were performed by the Pentagon and the NSA.

also note these drill were not poerformed (or sceduled to be performed) on 9/11

[steve s]

Originally Posted by JonathanClement

Okay, I have this one guy saying "How do you explain the COINCIDENTAL war exercises, which happen to simulate scenarios of planes going into buildings."

As far as "coincidental" goes, in the wee hours of last Friday morning we experienced an earthquake here in the midwest, something that is very rare here. On the very day the quake hit, an earthquake drill had been scheduled. OMG!! The earthquake was an inside job!!!

Steve S.

[JonathanClement]

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

why dont you be honest, and answer him, "I dont know"

1. I'll look like an idiot

2. He'll spam my channel without mercy.

3. He'll put me off balance and I'll start getting all emo again.

[defaultdotxbe]

Originally Posted by JonathanClement

1. I'll look like an idiot

2. He'll spam my channel without mercy.

3. He'll put me off balance and I'll start getting all emo again.

theres also the little matter of now you DO know

lapman pretty much summed it up, there WERE NO excercises scheduled for 9/11 that involved planes being flown into buildings

in a post near the beginning of the thread gumboot detailed what WAS scheduled, also note IIRC the excercises (global guardian and vigilent guardian) were scheduled to begin at 9am and were cancelled due to the events

[Tweeter]

Originally Posted by JonathanClement

1. I'll look like an idiot

2. He'll spam my channel without mercy.

3. He'll put me off balance and I'll start getting all emo again.

Finally, someone that tells the truth.

[defaultdotxbe]

Originally Posted by Tweeter

Finally, someone that tells the truth.

now if we could just get a member of the so-called truth movement to do the same

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by JonathanClement

Okay, I have this one guy saying "How do you explain the COINCIDENTAL war exercises, which happen to simulate scenarios of planes going into buildings."

What should I say in response? I have a feeling that he's going to bring up something that shows the exersizes DID involve planes going into buildings.

He's not, because they didn't.

The only things he can offer up are:

A) National Reconnaissance Office emergency drill held on 9/11 which involved pretending a light aircraft crashing into their building and training staff on evacuation procedures etc.

B) Pentagon MASCAL (Mass Casualty Exercise) held a year before 9/11, again, an exercise designed to test staff responses to an emergency situation, and involving an airliner departing from Reagan Airport accidently crashing into the Pentagon. (Note the aircraft didn't actually crash into the building in this scenario, but crashed into the central courtyard).

Neither of the above are war games, one isn't even a military exercise at all, neither were simulating terrorist attacks, neither involved NORAD, one wasn't held on 9/11 and one didn't involve an airliner.

[JonathanClement]

Okay, here's what I put:

Quote:

There were no NORAD exercises that simulated planes being flown into buildings. The only drills that did this were performed by the Pentagon and the NSA. Both are located near airports and it would make sense to practice such drills. Neither drill dealt with a hijacked airliner that was deliberately flown into a building.

And here's his responce.

Quote:

Sorry, that is incorrect. Again, you are doing exactly what the government does when confronted with these facts, which is LYING. Actually the fact is that exercises simulating SPECIFICALLY scenarios of hijacking were happening on 9/11. It just happened that Chaney sent the only jets in charge of protecting the airspace to the fkn canadian border. So there was nobody to protect the airspace. So later on, when asked "where was our protection" he had the justified answer. There's no conspiracy.

[defaultdotxbe]

he seems to be referring to operation northern vigilence, ask him if they thinks the russians are part of the conspiracy too, lol, alternatively ask him if the operation reduced the number of alert fighters anywhere int he US (the answer is "no")

[DGM]

Originally Posted by JonathanClement

Okay, here's what I put:

And here's his responce.

Ask him to specifically reference the exorcise for you. He's lying through his teeth or badly misinformed. Get him to name sources.

[contra]

He assumes he is right. He assumes he cannot have been fooled by lies and untruths.
Explain that he should look into it forhimself and not believe that Alex Jones or you say.

When someone claims something, tell him ask for sources on that.

Then when he cannot give him the ones you have. tell him to look into it further.

[ElMondoHummus]

Originally Posted by JonathanClement

Okay, here's what I put:

And here's his responce.

The truther is echoing claims originating here:

http://physics911.net/jacobs.pdf

He's just adding the twist of Cheney being the one who gave the orders.

Here's some info that might help. No, it's not a quickie answer I'm afraid, because some context it needed to understand why the claim is fantasy. But, it's a good summation.

http://www.911myths.com/html/operati...vigilance.html

ETA: Here's a thread from this very forum on this very topic:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1867784

Again, I have to emphasize, there is context to be aware of in understanding how to properly refute the claim.

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by JonathanClement

Okay, here's what I put:

And here's his responce.

He's referring to Operation Northern Vigilance (which wasn't an exercise) and involved the movement of US fighters from Alaska and Canadian fighters to forward operating bases in the north of Alaska and Canada.

This Operation did not involve any units from the lower 48 states, let alone alert aircraft from the 1st Air Force.

Fourteen fighters were on alert in CONUS on 9/11, same as there was every other day. Four were in the north east (two F-15s from the 102nd Fighter Wing, Massachusetts Air National Guard, at Otis Air National Guard Base and two F-16s from the 119th Fighter Wing, North Dakota National Guard, at Langley Air Force Base ) as per usual, and all four fighters were scrambled on 9/11:

102nd Fighter Wing
PANTHER 4-5, 4-6
Battle Stations: 0838
Scramble Ordered: 0846
Airborne: 0852

119th Fighter Wing
QUIT 2-5, 2-6 (+QUIT 2-7 unarmed F-16)
Battle Stations: 0909
Scramble Ordered: 0924
Airborne: 0930

[PhantomWolf]

There were no NORAD excerises about planes being crashed into buildings, nor any exercises about planes being deliberately crashed, or multiple hijackings.

CT's like to claim that NORAD was awash with excersises that day and that they interfered because the staff at NEADS couldn't tell fake from real. This simply isn't true. NORAD had two exercises (Timely Alert II, and Vigilant Guardian) and one actual operation (Operation Northern Vigilance) which was in response to Russian war games off the Alaskan coast. Timely Alert II was being run over several days and had not started that morning when the first attack occured. It did include a Hijack senario, but this was a standard hijack senario to take the plane to "a Cuba like island". There was never a multiple hijacking senario, nor an exercise devoted entirely to hijackings. After asking if the call from Boston was "Real life or Exercise" the exercise was canned and everyone swung into action. The second exercise, Vigilant Gaurdian is often cited as being a multiple hijack senario, however this is also unture, this involved a sneak Soviet bomber attack and again was not under way. The fact that everyone was there for the exercises actually helped because under normal circumstances many of the officers wouldn't have been in the operations room at NEADS and that would have ment delays getting them there.

The exercise that you'll probably be thrown is a National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) drill which simulated a plane crashing into one of their buildings. This was a simulated accident, a small plane that failed to gain altitude and crashed shortly after take off, not a jetliner being deliberately flown into the building. Finally you might get Operation Vigilant Warrior thrown at you, however there is no actual proof that such ever existed on 9/11. It was the name of an operation during the '91 Gulf War and seems to have come from one person's confusion with Vigilant Gaurdian. There is a slim chance that you might have Amalgam Virgo tossed in, but this exercise was carried out in June.

[ElMondoHummus]

Originally Posted by gumboot

He's referring to Operation Northern Vigilance (which wasn't an exercise) and involved the movement of US fighters from Alaska and Canadian fighters to forward operating bases in the north of Alaska and Canada.

This Operation did not involve any units from the lower 48 states, let alone alert aircraft from the 1st Air Force.

Fourteen fighters were on alert in CONUS on 9/11, same as there was every other day. Four were in the north east (two F-15s from the 102nd Fighter Wing, Massachusetts Air National Guard, at Otis Air National Guard Base and two F-16s from the 119th Fighter Wing, North Dakota National Guard, at Langley Air Force Base ) as per usual, and all four fighters were scrambled on 9/11:

102nd Fighter Wing
PANTHER 4-5, 4-6
Battle Stations: 0838
Scramble Ordered: 0846
Airborne: 0852

119th Fighter Wing
QUIT 2-5, 2-6 (+QUIT 2-7 unarmed F-16)
Battle Stations: 0909
Scramble Ordered: 0924
Airborne: 0930

And to add to Gumboot's post: Cheney would not have been in any position to give any such orders to any craft in the operation Gumboot lists here.

[lapman]

Originally Posted by JonathanClement

Okay, here's what I put:

And here's his responce.

Fine, ask to list all exercises, the serial numbers of every plane, the pilots and their exact position on that day. He must also seperate out the exact aircraft that were supposed to be on alert that day.

In other words, he has to prove that what you posted was a lie.

[JonathanClement]

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=8N4JHKPB3Tk

That's my video. Check out his comments. This guy is such a lulz-cow! XD

[Tweeter]

I watched your video. You have more conspiracy theories than most truthers, tarzan.
And watch your mouth, there`s kids(debunkers)watching.

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

NORAD had two exercises (Timely Alert II, and Vigilant Guardian) and one actual operation (Operation Northern Vigilance) which was in response to Russian war games off the Alaskan coast. Timely Alert II was being run over several days and had not started that morning when the first attack occured. It did include a Hijack senario, but this was a standard hijack senario to take the plane to "a Cuba like island". There was never a multiple hijacking senario, nor an exercise devoted entirely to hijackings. After asking if the call from Boston was "Real life or Exercise" the exercise was canned and everyone swung into action. The second exercise, Vigilant Gaurdian is often cited as being a multiple hijack senario, however this is also unture, this involved a sneak Soviet bomber attack and again was not under way.

What you've described above is just Vigilant Guardian, which involved a wide variety of scenarios including a full scale Russian Bomber attack and a hijacking scenario as you describe.

Timely Alert II was a US Army force protection exercise at Fort Monmouth in New Jersey that simulated a chemical attack on the base and involved only base personnel and local emergency services. It did not involve NORAD in any way.

[PhantomWolf]

Originally Posted by Tweeter

I watched your video. You have more conspiracy theories than most truthers, tard.
And watch your mouth, there`s kids(debunkers)watching.

You know Tweeter, calling another poster a "tard" is not exacly following your user agreement. I suggest editing that before a mod does for you.

[PhantomWolf]

Originally Posted by gumboot

What you've described above is just Vigilant Guardian, which involved a wide variety of scenarios including a full scale Russian Bomber attack and a hijacking scenario as you describe.

Timely Alert II was a US Army force protection exercise at Fort Monmouth in New Jersey that simulated a chemical attack on the base and involved only base personnel and local emergency services. It did not involve NORAD in any way.

Doh. That's teach me for trying to rush a post. Not that it will stop me doing it in the future....