OCT leader's maturity and credibility

[Killtown]

To all who think I ignored and ducked Gravy's questions because I was being a coward, you need to know how it all started.

First, Gravy is "Murdervillage"...

Quote:

Gravy:

I had posted this in another thread. Killtown asked that I start a new thread.

Glad you're here, Killtown.

In other forums where you post, I've posted as "Murdervillage" and repeatedly asked you questions that you simply ignored.

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...12&postcount=1

Now how it first started....

Quote:

At 8:10 PM, Murdervillage said...

I agree with my friend Killtown. Airplanes that hit reinforced concrete structrures at high speed DO NOT break into small pieces! Anyone who doesn't know that is a fool, a tool, and a shill.


At 8:22 PM, Murdervillage said...

Killttown, I read your blog. Two thumbs up!


At 8:33 PM, Murdervillage said...

Lay off Killtown. He has been researching this for years and I believe he has spoken to investigators and other supposed witnesses at each supposed crash scene, and not a single one claims that planes hit there or that passenger rmains were recovered.

Killtown 1, Investigators and "witnesses" 0.


At 8:36 PM, Murdervillage said...

Killtown, I forget where on your website you have all those quotes from your interviews with the investigators and witnesses where they say they found no aircraft and human remains. Can you link to that again?


At 8:55 PM, Murdervillage said...

Oh, maybe it was on your blog where I saw your interviews with all those people who were on the scenes.

Is that right, Killtown? I know you said you interviewed all those people. Can you point me to them again?

Thanks!


At 9:00 PM, Murdervillage said...

I just read the "no tail" blog post again, and I heartily concur.

It's perfectly obvious that when a long, cylindrical airliner hits a concrete structure, it will go through that structure without bending or buckling, and the vertical stabilizer would be perfetcty upright when it hit. Anyone who says different will need to explain what universe their laws of physics apply to.


At 9:31 PM, Murdervillage said...

Killtown, help me out. I'm still lost! Can't find where you talked to all those people who were at the scenes. I think it was 30 or 40 interviews, right?

Are those interviews on your blog or your website?


At 11:25 PM, Murdervillage said...

Killtown, they are killing me. I told them that you swore you interviewed a whole bunch of people who investigated the "crash scenes."

Help me out! I can't find those interviews!

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com...gs-theory.html

Quote:

At 11:31 PM, Murdervillage said...

I'm glad you're still here, Killtown. I promised people I would send them to your interviews of the "crash scene" investigators, but I still can't find them.

I know you said you did those interviews. 30 or 40 people, wasn't it?

Pleeeeeeease help me out here! I don't want to be made a fool of!



At 11:37 PM, Killtown said...

Murdervillage, you are already a fool. (I already knew what this "Murdervillage" was up too! I didn't know this person was the "impeccalbe" Gravy back then.)

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com...ight-wing.html

Quote:

At 8:57 PM, Murdervillage said...

Killtown, I'm glad you're here. People are harrassing me about where your interviews with the on-scene people are. You said you did 30 or 40 of them. Please tell me where to find them!


At 9:48 PM, Murdervillage said...

I believe killtown. He said he actually talked to the first responders and investigators in Shanksville, and they denied that any evidence of the plane or people were found.

I think most of you critics are new at thisl Killtown has been researching for a long time.

Killtown, when you get a chance, can you throw me those links to your interviews? Please?


At 10:07 PM, Murdervillage said...

Killtown, I hate to be a bother, but can you at least give us a summary of who you talked to from the flight 93 site and what they said?

At 4:01 AM, Murdervillage said...

I don't want to seem to be criticizing Killtown! His research is awesome! I just think he's shy or something. There is absolutely no reason to think he's not telling the truth.

The flight 93 site was by far the smallest in terms of the number of people on the scene, and still there were over 1100 people there from 74 agencies and organizations, from the Shanksville Volunteer Fire Department to coroner Wally Miller to hundreds of FBI investigators. Just look at the list of first responders from that PDF I listed earlier!

So, it's not as if there's a shortage of witnesses to communicate with, and if Killtown says he's done that, and that if they say there was no plane or human remains there, I believe him 100%. I wonder if he has a book deal or something that precludes him from sharing this info.

Killtown?

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com...-debunked.html

So you see what Gravy was trying to do to get me to answer his question, being immature, sarcastic, and DECEPTIVE in egging me on to answer them (apparently he thought I was that stupid to fall for his trick). Then he says this:

Quote:

My comment was childish, but was born of frustration at Killtown's daily refusal to answer my questions...

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...5&postcount=47

And tops it off with...

Quote:

But I needn't have stooped to calling him dumb. His website and forum posts are ample proof of his intellect.

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...5&postcount=47

The really sad part is most OCTs (Official Conspiracy Theorists) still hold him in high esteem and being credible.


Sad, just sad.

[hellaeon]

All I request as a casual reader and observer/contributor of the forum that we not lower this decent forum to a 'days of our lives' load of drivel such as this.

Sorry but the care factor is -1

[Hishighness]

Come on you two, kiss and make up.

[T.A.M.]

I will only say this.

Given the maturity level exhibited "many times" by the "Truth" movement Frontmen (D.A. J.B. J.F.A.J.), a big old "POT CALLIN THE KETTLE BLACK" is in order.

[Killtown]

He is a leader in the OCT movement. Just need to show you guys what kind of person you're following.

You can thank me later.

[WildCat]

[Hishighness]

I don't follow anyone, I'm not a sheep. I look at evidence and make up my own mind. So far I've not seen any conclusive evidence that 9/11 was a Conspiracy theory. Oh yeah you can trot out the squibs, or building 7, or the hole in the pentagon, and quote mine all you want but take that **** to court and you'd get laughed out of the room.

[Gravy]

Yes, I was inspired by watching you refuse to answer similar questions again and again on the LC forum.

All the messages I got about those posts thought they were funny as hell. You really should print them next to your posts, where they belong.

Why didn't you answer my questions as you promised to do, Killtown? Why did you run away like the rest of the CT cowards?

What are you afraid of? It's just the truth hiding under your bed.

[defaultdotxbe]

immaturity is a 2 edged sword

http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/...ult_type=posts

im sure i could dig up killtown being insulting too (we already know he has no respect for mark bingham)

[Brainache]

I don't understand what your quotes demonstrate Killtown. Other than your reluctance to answer a direct question related to your Blog.
Murdervillage seems to have been frustrated by your continual obfuscation, which to me is perfectly understandable.

If you claimed to have interviewed all those people, why not show the interviews? Surely their statements must have confirmed your assertions or you wouldn't have mentioned them at all.
I'm still curious as to what they said.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by Killtown

He is a leader in the OCT movement. Just need to show you guys what kind of person you're following.

You can thank me later.

He's a leader? Hardly. He has done a lot for sure, but there are no leaders here. Look at the first Loose Change thread here - it's pinned - gravy doesn't even come along until over 3 weeks into the thread. And frankly, it took him only a few weeks to find all that evidence that seems to elude all the CT'ers and then he made his viewing guide. And all he did to make that, basically, was compile all the info from 9/11 Myths and other sites.

I really don't get how you CT'ers - who claim to be extensively researching all things 9/11 - could have missed so much info that has been around forever. For example, the flight manifests that were printed by the Boston Globe a few days after 9/11. What did all you CT "researchers" do? Claimed a victims list posted on CNN was a flight manifest. And that bit of disinfo is still being spread by the LC crowd and others.

You guys seem to be completely oblivious to all the facts surrounding 9/11. You deliberately take quotes out of context (Larry Silverstein said "pull it"!1!11!!!!1), make up other lies out of thin air (Ben Chertoff a cousin of Michael Chertoff, Marvin Bush head of WTC security, no plane parts found at the Pentagon, etc), cite things as being in the "official report" that isn't there (the official explanation is that the plane vaporized), I could go on and on. Then you guys have the gall to call yourselves the "Truth Movement" despite all the lies you must know you're perpetuating.

And oh yeah, you accuse people of the murder of nearly 3,000 people w/o a shred of evidence.

So don't be surprised when some people get a little short with you, this will happen when you make such serious accusations w/o any evidence whatsoever.

[hellaeon]

Gravy is not my 'leader' he is someone who did his homework and addressed the claims spouted forth by people who claimed to be telling us the 'truth'.
As someone who did that and saved me the work, he is an example of a good citizen, someone to follow by example, not a 'leader of the anti CT movement'. Why do you propose we are some opposing evil?
We dont have any movement. Its a bunch of people who would rather reality as it is. People who would prefer to be humble in the light of correctly attained evidence. People who dont jump to conclusions about 'zionist corruption' out of looking at a blurry photo or seeing the price of eggs go up. Call it/us/our ways/habbits what you want but its far from the cult behaviour conspiracy circles exhibit.

Im tired of the idiocy CT people exhibit. Your damned if you do, damned if you dont. Its pathetic attention seeking rubbish. Wannabe scientists and revolutionists trying to play out there latest movie hero in real life.

My two cents.

[Hishighness]

I personally think the only way to solve this is a 57 round battle royale on top of a 1987 Buick Skylark.

Who's with me.

WHO'S WITH MEEEEEEEE!?!!?

[Lisa Simpson]

So, Gravy...you're the leader, huh? Is there a special pin or a really cool badge or something? And what are the bennies like? Medical, dental, vision?

[bjb]

Gravy isn't perfect. I wish he had enough patience to refrain from getting personal. But he's doing a great job and I'm very happy with what he's doing. James Randi also has a tendency to resort to name calling, not that that makes it right but it is a hazard for skeptics who have been exposed to excessive amounts of nonsense.

Killtown, you might want to read Michael Shermer's book, "Why People Believe Weird Things". It doesn't specifically address the 9/11 conspiracy theory, but it does describe the faulty thought processes that lead otherwise reasonable people to believe in nonsense. There are a few chapters on Holocause deniers, creationists, UFO believers, etc. and the methods used to propogate such beliefs are very similar. As I read through the book it was easy to see that the 9/11 conspiracy theorists are on the same path of irrational thinking as these other fringe groups. You might want to take a look at this book. Unlike James Randi, Michael Shermer doesn't resort to personal insults. He does spend time debunking outrageous claims, but he's also very interested in understanding why people believe in this sort of nonsense. Read it and see if anything looks familiar to you, in particular, the section on ad hoc arguements.

[Gravy]

As their leader, I commanded Wildcat, Hellaeon, and bjb to say those things.

[Earl The Tall]

Originally Posted by Hishighness

I personally think the only way to solve this is a 57 round battle royale on top of a 1987 Buick Skylark.

Who's with me.

WHO'S WITH MEEEEEEEE!?!!?

A battle royal? I love battle royals! I'm there, but does it have to be a Skylark?

[Gravy]

But to be serious for a moment, Wildcat's post is a perfect summary of what the CTs say on Saturdays at Ground Zero. The same old, discredited falsehoods from a group calling itself promoters of "Truth."

At some point you should start facing the stark, naked facts, Killtown, as unpleasant as they may be. I get emails every day from people who fell for the CT hogwash and found their way out of it. They feel a bit embarrassed, but mostly they feel liberated. I'm glad to have had a role in that.

[bjb]

It looks like we were all typing at the same time! Killtown's plan is to conduct an ad hominem attack on Gravy in an effort to discredit the 9/11 conspiracy debunkers. First, he tells us Gravy is our leader (strawman), then he proceeds to attack his credibility in order to make the debunkers look bad.

Unfortunately, the best Killtown can do is point out the fact that Gravy occasionally gets frustrated and calls people names. Killtown is not interesting in refuting the facts supporting Gravy's arguements (other than using the ad hoc approach of claiming all of the evidence is faked). In fact, Killtown has already pledged that he will not answer direct questions from Gravy! How grown-up and mature is that? Perhaps Killtown would be a more convincing 9/11 truth movement leader if he let the insults go and tried to stick to the facts.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by Gravy

As their leader, I commanded Wildcat, Hellaeon, and bjb to say those things.

And when Gravy says "jump" we ask "how high?".

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

So, Gravy...you're the leader, huh? Is there a special pin or a really cool badge or something? And what are the bennies like? Medical, dental, vision?

Yes, and I don't believe that "You're the leader, huh?" is the approved salutation.

The only benefits are free Rollerblading lessons for all JREF members (I'm an instructor, although I haven't taught in a while and my insurance is lapsed, so you'll have to promise not to sue me if you crack your coccyx). Also, if you need advice on trekking or cycling very long distances, I'm your man. Otherwise I'm pretty much useless.

[Senor_Pointy]

Sorry to interrupt, but what the hell does OCT stand for?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Quote:

Suspecting what the Israeli/Palistine conflict is really about, the strong evidence Israel was involved with 9/11, and seeing how 9/11 was faked in general, it makes me wonder how much of the Holocaust was true or not.... It is my belief that if the holocaust didn't happen, then Israel would not be a state right now. This alone gives strong evidence that the zionists behind getting Israel created would exaggerate the holocaust for their end means.

- Killtown at Loose Change

I've had my knuckles rapped once already for being less than civil with you, Killtown (unlike certain other message boards I can name, the rules here are enforced fairly and even handedly for all users) So I'm going to try to state this clearly without being vicious about it.

If you're going to dredge up someones comments from other boards to impugn thier character, then I would suggest that holocaust denial and anti-semitism are hardly a moral high ground from wich to make such arguments.

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by Senor_Pointy

Sorry to interrupt, but what the hell does OCT stand for?

"Official Conspiracy Theory"

[R.Mackey]

Originally Posted by Killtown

To all who think I ignored and ducked Gravy's questions because I was being a coward, you need to know how it all started.

Actually, I don't need to know any of that. How you and Gravy talk to each other is your own business.

I'd be a lot more impressed if you'd answer my questions: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...8&postcount=14 in case you lost the thread. Thanks.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by Gravy

"Official Conspiracy Theory"

As opposed to the LCT - "Lunatic Conspiracy Theory". Not that they've actually come up with one yet that doesn't rely on mutally exclusive elements...

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by R.Mackey

Actually, I don't need to know any of that. How you and Gravy talk to each other is your own business.

I'd be a lot more impressed if you'd answer my questions: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...8&postcount=14 in case you lost the thread. Thanks.

I'll second that. It's an excellent post, as always, R. Mackey.

This reminds me of how preposterous the idea of me "leading" people here is. I've never had outside conversations with R. Mackey, Gumboot, or most of the people whose contributions here I'm in awe of. There is no "movement." Just a bunch of individuals from different backgrounds who give a damn about 9/11 and who respect learning.

[R.Mackey]

Having said that, Gravy, if I'm ever in NYC, I'll look you up. I imagine you could use a beer or three.

Just make sure we're not photographed together. Fnord.

[hellaeon]

* kneels *

What is your bidding....my master....

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by Gravy

Just a bunch of individuals from different backgrounds who give a damn about 9/11 and who respect learning.

And that's what's so funny about it all - the CT'ers have been at it for nearly 5 years now spreading lies and distortions researching. You found the Loose Change thread 4 1/2 months ago after never even hearing about the CT's and in that short amount of time discredited them all and became *enemy #1 for the Truth™ movement. Only in America!



* this includes you MarkyX since you are the same person.

[defaultdotxbe]

Originally Posted by WildCat

And that's what's so funny about it all - the CT'ers have been at it for nearly 5 years now spreading lies and distortions researching. You found the Loose Change thread 4 1/2 months ago after never even hearing about the CT's and in that short amount of time discredited them all and became *enemy #1 for the Truth™ movement. Only in America!



* this includes you MarkyX since you are the same person.

thats bacause gravy/markyx/brainster are actually a team of about 15-20 CIA agents workign swing shifts round the clock to keep one step ahead of some film school reject who figured out how to upload a movie on google video

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe

thats bacause gravy/markyx/brainster are actually a team of about 15-20 CIA agents workign swing shifts round the clock to keep one step ahead of some film school reject who figured out how to upload a movie on google video

You overestimate the adversary.

Quote:

So I spent twelve hours yesterday uploading the Recut to Google Video...check my account this morning, it isn't there.

On the British 9/11 forum they did accuse of being paid to work in shifts against them. Of course, we were all laid off when Langley purchased Johnny Pixel Bot.

[Abbyas]

Credibility? Impeccable.

Maturity? Some of the best WTC moments for me involve looking over at Mark and seeing him giving one of the more colorful CTers the international sign for "Cuckoo." A mature individual would have given the guy the phone number to the nearest psychiatric hospital.

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by Abbyas

Credibility? Impeccable.

Maturity? Some of the best WTC moments for me involve looking over at Mark and seeing him giving one of the more colorful CTers the international sign for "Cuckoo." A mature individual would have given the guy the phone number to the nearest psychiatric hospital.

That only applies to the guy who says he can see into my wicked soul, and that I'm in deep, deep trouble. He also said my shoes were inappropriate for debunking, and always accuses us of being paid intelligence operatives. Now when he talks like that I lean in really close to his face, give him the international cuckoo sign, and say "cuckoo" in a high-pitched voice. It's the highlight of my week.

[jhunter1163]

Gravy:

I can get you a good price on a nice pair of Air Randis.

[Johnny Pixels]

Originally Posted by Gravy

On the British 9/11 forum they did accuse of being paid to work in shifts against them. Of course, we were all laid off when Langley purchased Johnny Pixel Bot.

I'm up to version 1.337 now.

41 6e 64 20 49 20 72 75 6e 20 6f 6e 20 61 6e 20 41 6d 69 67 61 20 35 30 30 20 62 65 63 61 75 73 65 20 6e 6f 2d 6f 6e 65 20 77 72 69 74 65 73 20 76 69 72 75 73 65 73 20 66 6f 72 20 74 68 65 6d 20 61 6e 79 6d 6f 72 65 2c 20 73 6f 20 49 27 6d 20 73 61 66 65 20 66 72 6f 6d 20 68 61 63 6b 65 72 73 2e

[Cuddles]

There's an Official Conspiracy Theory? Can I join? Do we get badges?

[twinstead]

Damn, I saw a thread started by killtown with a long opening post, and I thought "COOL! Killtown is actually going to answer the questions posed to him about inconsistencies in his theory and finally start actually debating real facts."

Then I read it. Boy was I dissapointed

[Foolmewunz]

Originally Posted by Cuddles

There's an Official Conspiracy Theory? Can I join? Do we get badges?

Slow down - I'm still trying to remember the Gravy's Sheep Official Handshake because I can't get past the bouncer at the CIA stooge ultra top secret night club we all hang out at.

Now you want badges and decoder rings for OCT membership? Our wallets are going to filled to overflowing. Besides, Gravy hasn't said it's okay, yet!

[Foolmewunz]

[quote=Killtown;1844728]To all who think I ignored and ducked Gravy's questions because I was being a coward, you need to know how it all started.


Okay, to get back to the train of this discussion, then.... We still think you were being a coward, as you're just blowing smoke up our kilts with a long cut-n-paste job that shows that you not only don't answer Gravy, but you DON'T ANSWER ANYONE. Even someone doing his best to be a sycophant. And no, we don't think you figured out who it was.... like I said, YOU NEVER ANSWER ANY SPECIFIC QUESTIONS.

Here's the million turkish dollar challenge(with apologies to H.Stern).... Show us 1 answer to any of the questions he asked. Not just in that exchange, but show one time you have EVER answered anyone or actually directed someone to the site, blog, magazine, billboard, film, video (ad infitum....) that had any proof of your mindless and scurrilous accusations.

And thanks to Sword of Truth, we can say that not only are you a coward, you're an anti semitic sack of rule8. If it wasn't Loose Change, it'd be the price of gas. If not the price of gas, then housing prices in Salinas. Something's ALWAYS the fault of the zionists and jews. You guys almost pass for credible to your slobbering masses sometimes, but as has already been noted, sooner or later you slip up and start recommending tinfoil hats, or espousing Holocaust denial, or arming and heading for the mountains, or marching on the government!