Breaking News: Police Arrest Suspect in JonBenet Ramsey Case - Page 2

Ipecac · 17th August 2006, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by fuelair

and, what about the practice note the Mom had been working on? I never saw a dismissal of that one. (If you did please note when/where)

Huh? There was no proof that Patsy wrote the "practice note". If so, please provide a link.

JamesDillon · 17th August 2006, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by brodski

Or does the state the crime was committed in not have the death penalty? If it does, it makes a false confession to evade Thai justice pretty unlikely (or very stupid).

Not if he really was in Alabama at the time. That should be pretty easy to prove if it's the case, and the prosecutors couldn't ethically pursue charges if there's clear evidence he wasn't even in Colorado at the time of the crime.

Axenos · 17th August 2006, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by brodski

You have to have a hell of a lot of confidence in the US justice system (or any justice system for that matter) to try that one though. The world has just herd him admit murdering a 6 year old, who he also admits to molesting, at the time of his arrest (for an unrelated sex crime) and confession he was living in Thailand, looking for work at a school. I will be very surprised if he isn't convicted, even if he decides to recant on his confession.
If convicted is a death sentence likely? Or does the state the crime was committed in not have the death penalty? If it does, it makes a false confession to evade Thai justice pretty unlikely (or very stupid).

Sure, but if you really wanted to get back to the States...

We'll all just have to wait and see...

The Central Scrutinizer · 17th August 2006, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by davefoc

I suspect the Ramseys were hounded initially as a result of police incompetence.

I suspect they were hounded because Patsy enjoyed dressing a 6 year old child like a cheap hooker and parading her around on stage.

Jaggy Bunnet · 17th August 2006, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by brodski

You have to have a hell of a lot of confidence in the US justice system (or any justice system for that matter) to try that one though. The world has just herd him admit murdering a 6 year old, who he also admits to molesting, at the time of his arrest (for an unrelated sex crime) and confession he was living in Thailand, looking for work at a school. I will be very surprised if he isn't convicted, even if he decides to recant on his confession.
If convicted is a death sentence likely? Or does the state the crime was committed in not have the death penalty? If it does, it makes a false confession to evade Thai justice pretty unlikely (or very stupid).

Would that be admissable as evidence?

senorpogo · 17th August 2006, 08:21 AM

Considering how much the police screwed up the investigation, what's the chances that they'll get a conviction on this guy?

Checkmite · 17th August 2006, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

I suspect they were hounded because Patsy enjoyed dressing a 6 year old child like a cheap hooker and parading her around on stage.

That, and the body being found in their own house, with no list of alternative suspects. Not enough to convict - but when has that stopped anybody from making a decision?

While at my grandmother's house the other day, I caught part of a Dr. Phil show where he's talking about parents who put their children through these sorts of things. There's chat sites parents visit where they say some of the most vile things that I've ever heard humans utter about each other's kids.

Checkmite · 17th August 2006, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by senorpogo

Considering how much the police screwed up the investigation, what's the chances that they'll get a conviction on this guy?

With a confession, presuming it holds up? 100%.

The Central Scrutinizer · 17th August 2006, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi

There's chat sites parents visit where they say some of the most vile things that I've ever heard humans utter about each other's kids.

That does not surprise me.

senorpogo · 17th August 2006, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi

With a confession, presuming it holds up? 100%.

Ah. Wasn't aware of the confession. I only saw a little news coverage last night.

brodski · 17th August 2006, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Jaggy Bunnet

Would that be admissable as evidence?

It will be in the media trial. I have no idea about the actual rules of evidence

Jaggy Bunnet · 17th August 2006, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by senorpogo

Ah. Wasn't aware of the confession. I only saw a little news coverage last night.

From what I saw he said he was present when she died but that it was an accident.

pgwenthold · 17th August 2006, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

I suspect they were hounded because Patsy enjoyed dressing a 6 year old child like a cheap hooker and parading her around on stage.

This has a lot to do with it, I think.

Jerry Springer this morning stated that he couldn't believe Patsy Ramsey could do this because "only a monster could do that to her own daughter, and there would be other signs." My initial thought was, yeah, but it's not like the media didn't recognize this. She was consistently presented as a monster, and every move she made was interpreted in a sinister light.

I'll admit, I was one who initially suspected her, although the lack of an indictment despite all the desparate work of the DA to find evidence against her made me doubt it. OTOH, guilty or not, I never had any respect for her, mainly for parading her 6 year old daughter around in those beauty pageants. Maybe not a monster, but still a creep, IMO.

Molinaro · 17th August 2006, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Jaggy Bunnet

From what I saw he said he was present when she died but that it was an accident.

True, but not in a good way!

Today's stories quote him as saying to police:

"I drugged her, sexualy assaulted her, then she died accidentaly"

Jaggy Bunnet · 17th August 2006, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by Molinaro

True, but not in a good way!

Today's stories quote him as saying to police:

"I drugged her, sexualy assaulted her, then she died accidentaly"

I am in no way trying to defend him, simply stating what was said at the news conference.

If he did say this then I'm afraid that makes his confession at odds with the coroners report which did not detect the presence of any drugs.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet1.html

I have a horrible feeling that Axenos may be correct - this guy could simply be a publicity seeker.

Cleon · 17th August 2006, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Jaggy Bunnet

I have a horrible feeling that Axenos may be correct - this guy could simply be a publicity seeker.

I suppose that's possible, but his confession came after the cops arrested him. If he was really a publicity hound, he would have voluntarily turned himself in rather than wait for arrest.

Axenos · 17th August 2006, 09:24 AM

Hence my CT theory that what he did was done for a necessary (to him) reason... it's all about timing after all.

Cyphermage · 17th August 2006, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Molinaro

True, but not in a good way!

Today's stories quote him as saying to police:

"I drugged her, sexualy assaulted her, then she died accidentaly"

Well the DA just held a press conference. They say it's early in the investigation, and they arrested the suspect prior to the investigation being complete. Fox News is discussing the possibility that the guy is a crank obsessed with child murders.

No charges have been filed. Everything is under seal.

It's not impossible that this guy is a pedo they arrested because he'd just gotten a job at a school, and was under investigation, and they have bupkis. Which would of course make them all look like fools.

Oh, and the most interesting line of the press conference. "John Ramsey and John Karr are both presumed innocent."

Weird.

The Central Scrutinizer · 17th August 2006, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Navin

I had the same reaction after seeing him talk and learning about his investigative obsession. Two facts give me concern that this ain't the killer: his wife says they were together for Christmas in '96 and we have yet to hear a hint of explanation of his connection to the Ramseys and Boulder, CO. That's a glaring hole to me.

Not necesarily. Do you remember who you were with on August 17th, 1996?

hgc · 17th August 2006, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Cleon

I suppose that's possible, but his confession came after the cops arrested him. If he was really a publicity hound, he would have voluntarily turned himself in rather than wait for arrest.

He was communicating with an author who was writing about the case. He said some disturbing things to that author that caused him to go to the police, which led eventually to this arrest (from what I heard). Those facts fit plausibly with the idea that he's a nut trying to associate himself with the famous case, either for publicity reasons or other reasons. It should be pretty easy to establish if he was in Alabama at the time.

Axenos · 17th August 2006, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

Not necesarily. Do you remember who you were with on August 17th, 1996?

Man, it's hard enough to remember August 17th, 2006... I have no idea where...

Oh wait... that's today.

JamesDillon · 17th August 2006, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

Not necesarily. Do you remember who you were with on August 17th, 1996?

No, but I could tell you where I was, and who I was with, on December 25, 1996.

The Central Scrutinizer · 17th August 2006, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by JamesDillon

No, but I could tell you where I was, and who I was with, on December 25, 1996.

I couldn't.

Ladewig · 17th August 2006, 12:56 PM

I'm skeptical of his confession. Why would someone who broke into a house to molest a child write a lengthy ransom note after accidentally killing the child?

As for the parents' possible involvement, I remember reading that the police determined that the ransom note was written on paper from the home. They announced that never before in the history of U.S. law enforcement has a kidnapper written a ransom note at the scene of a kidnapping. Was the claim that the note was written on paper from the Ramsey's house later disproven? Also what about the strange amount for the ransom: $118,000?

Katana · 17th August 2006, 01:00 PM

I think a lot will come down to the DNA evidence. If this guy's doesn't match the stuff found at the scene, he'll have a defense no matter what he said at that press conference.

That press conference was really weird, by the way.

HarryKeogh · 17th August 2006, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by JamesDillon

No, but I could tell you where I was, and who I was with, on December 25, 1996.

I could but only because of unusual family circumstances. 1997? Nope.

Navin · 17th August 2006, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

Not necesarily. Do you remember who you were with on August 17th, 1996?

As has been pointed out, the time in question was Christmas Day night. When confronted with your ex-husband's murder confession, I would think you could spend a few moments recalling the Christmases during your marriage. The ex-wife doesn't need to remember if she was with Karr on that date, but rather if her husband was ever absent from her and their kids at any Christmases - a fact that I presume is ordinarily pretty memorable for an American family.

This is the most complete version of her alibi statement that I could find:

"Laura Karr also tells us she's devastated and embarrassed by these murder charges, but she does not believe that her husband did it. She says that during Christmas season of 1996 when JonBenet Ramsey was strangled and beaten to death in Colorado, they were living in Alabama at the time and she was with him the entire Christmas season."

From abc7news (dot) (com).

There are still no hints/leaks from any sources on Karr's connection to the Ramseys or the Boulder area; also no forensic evidence has been shared.

There's a good skeptical article at Court TV that discusses the same troubles with Karr's story. I can't post URLs, so try this address...

crimelibrary.com/news/original/0806/1703_ramsey_arrest_john_karr.html

and prepend the Ws.

Cleon · 17th August 2006, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Katana

I think a lot will come down to the DNA evidence. If this guy's doesn't match the stuff found at the scene, he'll have a defense no matter what he said at that press conference.

I agree. It's a "wait and see" situation.

Personally, I find it puzzling that out of all the unsolved child murders out there, this one still warrants front-page news--even a decade later.

HarryKeogh · 17th August 2006, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Cleon

I agree. It's a "wait and see" situation.

Personally, I find it puzzling that out of all the unsolved child murders out there, this one still warrants front-page news--even a decade later.

Cute, white and from a well to family helps maintain interest.

This one didn't get much attention...

Ugly girl killed.

Segnosaur · 17th August 2006, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Cleon

I suppose that's possible, but his confession came after the cops arrested him. If he was really a publicity hound, he would have voluntarily turned himself in rather than wait for arrest.

Not necessarily.

He may have wanted publicity, but wanted freedom more.

There is a chance he was going to go to jail based on charges based on what happened in Tailand. If that was true, he would loose his freedom anyways, so he'd have nothing to loose by confessing to the Ramsey murder, yet get some publicity.

Ever hear of Disalvo? (Better known as the "Boston Strangler".) He was arrested for various sexual assaults, and confessed to the Strangler murders; however, his personality didn't fit the killer's profile, and there is forensic evidence that might clear him.

Segnosaur · 17th August 2006, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

I'm skeptical of his confession. Why would someone who broke into a house to molest a child write a lengthy ransom note after accidentally killing the child?

Why do you think the note would have to be written after the murder?

What may have happened was that the killer may have entered the house when the Ramseys were out and written the note then, waiting in the basement until everyone had gone to bed before acting. (This was suggested in the 'Cases that haunt us' book mentioned earlier.)

Quote:

As for the parents' possible involvement, I remember reading that the police determined that the ransom note was written on paper from the home. They announced that never before in the history of U.S. law enforcement has a kidnapper written a ransom note at the scene of a kidnapping. Was the claim that the note was written on paper from the Ramsey's house later disproven?

Don't think it was disproven, but there are reasons why the note was written on paper taken from the house:

The killer could have decided not to bring a note from outside because of the risk that it may give clues to his identity. (How many crime shows have we seen where they trace the killer because someone identified the paper a note was written on?)

Or, he may have brought a note, but decided to re-write it while waiting.

Quote:

Also what about the strange amount for the ransom: $118,000?

There were a couple of possibilities... One reasonable amount for the ransom is that the father had recently received a bonus from his company in approximately that amount; a killer may have seen a pay stub and based the amount on what they had seen.

Segnosaur · 17th August 2006, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi

That, and the body being found in their own house, with no list of alternative suspects.

Of course, one of the problems is that it wasn't widely known that there was a broken window in the basement that would have allowed entry to pretty much anyone. The police did state that 'no footprints were found in the snow', but they failed to state that there wasn't actually much snow around to actually leave the footprints in.

fuelair · 17th August 2006, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Jocko

Heard some curious details on the radio this morning - can't cite a source, so take it as you will:

* The suspect's wife (ex-wife?) swears they were both in Alabama at the time.
* The suspect has been in contact with investigators and a Colorado University professor on the Ramsey case, as background for a book he was writing on the subject.
* The suspect somehow tried to involve himself with the Polly Klass case, though nothing apparently came of it.
* The guy's generally obsessed with child porn and abduction/murder, but in a fanboy sort of way, not as an actual criminal.

Frankly, even if the above is true and he's just a sick psychopath, I'd be glad to see him locked in a hole forever. But it's certainly not the picture of a person I'd charge and call a slam-dunk case.

Curious aside: In 1997 I was working with a producer for A&E Investigative Reports - with Bill Kurtis (a voice like honey over pancakes). The story I heard from him - which he heard from Kurtis - who supposedly heard it from the FBI - is that Jonbenet was asphyxiated during the act of fellatio. The coroner's report doesn't jibe with this, so frankly I think anything is possible.

The part where ex-wife says they were living in (and more importantly IN) Alabama at the time of the murder is definite (the statement being made, not verification though). On, at least, the MSNBC web site.

Ladewig · 17th August 2006, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Why do you think the note would have to be written after the murder?

What may have happened was that the killer may have entered the house when the Ramseys were out and written the note then, waiting in the basement until everyone had gone to bed before acting. (This was suggested in the 'Cases that haunt us' book mentioned earlier.)

If he wrote the note before the murder that means he was planning on kidnapping the girl. Why would he interrupt the kidnapping to have sex with the girl in the house? If sexual assault was part of the motivation for the kidnapping, then why not take the girl from the house, have sex with her at a remote location, and then try to collect the ransom?

Quote:

Don't think it was disproven, but there are reasons why the note was written on paper taken from the house:

The killer could have decided not to bring a note from outside because of the risk that it may give clues to his identity. (How many crime shows have we seen where they trace the killer because someone identified the paper a note was written on?)

Or, he may have brought a note, but decided to re-write it while waiting.

So he figured using his own paper would give clues to his identity but handwriting a three-page ransom note would not?

brooklyn44 · 17th August 2006, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Axenos

Personal opinion after watching the clip:

I have a feeling that he may be a nut... but a smart one. Nobody would like to be an American in a foreign jail right now so:

If he was about to get busted in Thailand for an unrelated sex crime, then it would make sense to confess to a worldwide publicized murder in the US... to get extradition back here.

He get's back here and they find out it's not him... he maybe has to go through some treatment, and I would wager that the US would not extradite him back to Thailand unless Thailand's case was solid.

There are numerous cases of people confessing to crimes they did not commit... and in this case it may well serve the confessors needs.

What an inventive mind....this is a terrif plot for a made-for-TV movie..Are you a screenwirter?

American · 17th August 2006, 05:15 PM

You all misunderstand......

Michael Jackson LOVES children.

He would never harm a child!!!

AmateurScientist · 17th August 2006, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi

With a confession, presuming it holds up? 100%.

Not without corroborating evidence. There is plenty of case law in the US that a confession alone, without some corroborating evidence, is insufficient to support a finding of guilt in a criminal case.

The DNA evidence, once gathered and analyzed, would be the best corroborating evidence, or exclupatory evidence, as the case may be.

AS

Axenos · 18th August 2006, 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by brooklyn44

What an inventive mind....this is a terrif plot for a made-for-TV movie..Are you a screenwirter?

"If you wish to be success in the world, promise everything, deliver nothing."
Napoleon Bonaparte

(And truthfully, that would suck as a made-for-TV movie...

)

BPSCG · 18th August 2006, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by Navin

Two facts give me concern that this ain't the killer: his wife says they were together for Christmas in '96 and we have yet to hear a hint of explanation of his connection to the Ramseys and Boulder, CO. That's a glaring hole to me.

Agree with this. There was, allegedly, no forced entry to the house. How did he get in? Did he have a key? Did someone let him in? Was the door routinely unlocked? If the last, how did he know this?

Other problems: The autopsy says there was no evidence of drugs in her body, but he says he drugged her. Now, I thought I heard one "legal expert" yesterday claim the autopsy report could withhold information deemed crucial to a crime investigation, but can they actually deliberately put false information in it?

He claims to have had sex with her, but it appears whatever DNA they got from her was not from semen. What, he used a condom, then killed her?

I just don't have a good feeling about this.

shemp · 18th August 2006, 06:41 AM

Yeah, this schmells like a rotten mackeral on a pile of skunk manure.

I still think O.J. did it.

17th August 2006, 07:45 AM	#41
Ipecac Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,852	Originally Posted by fuelair and, what about the practice note the Mom had been working on? I never saw a dismissal of that one. (If you did please note when/where) Huh? There was no proof that Patsy wrote the "practice note". If so, please provide a link.
Ipecac Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,852

17th August 2006, 07:45 AM	#42
JamesDillon Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Berkeley, CA Posts: 2,631	Originally Posted by brodski Or does the state the crime was committed in not have the death penalty? If it does, it makes a false confession to evade Thai justice pretty unlikely (or very stupid). Not if he really was in Alabama at the time. That should be pretty easy to prove if it's the case, and the prosecutors couldn't ethically pursue charges if there's clear evidence he wasn't even in Colorado at the time of the crime.
	__________________ "To read the bible without horror, we must undo every thing that is tender, sympathising, and benevolent in the heart of man." --Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

17th August 2006, 07:48 AM	#43
Axenos Hedgehog Mahout Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Held Prisoner By Sheepling Central Command Posts: 3,314	Originally Posted by brodski You have to have a hell of a lot of confidence in the US justice system (or any justice system for that matter) to try that one though. The world has just herd him admit murdering a 6 year old, who he also admits to molesting, at the time of his arrest (for an unrelated sex crime) and confession he was living in Thailand, looking for work at a school. I will be very surprised if he isn't convicted, even if he decides to recant on his confession. If convicted is a death sentence likely? Or does the state the crime was committed in not have the death penalty? If it does, it makes a false confession to evade Thai justice pretty unlikely (or very stupid). Sure, but if you really wanted to get back to the States... We'll all just have to wait and see...
	__________________ "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark Twain. Go Hedgehog!

17th August 2006, 08:16 AM	#44
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,275	Originally Posted by davefoc I suspect the Ramseys were hounded initially as a result of police incompetence. I suspect they were hounded because Patsy enjoyed dressing a 6 year old child like a cheap hooker and parading her around on stage.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

17th August 2006, 08:30 AM	#47
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,879	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer I suspect they were hounded because Patsy enjoyed dressing a 6 year old child like a cheap hooker and parading her around on stage. That, and the body being found in their own house, with no list of alternative suspects. Not enough to convict - but when has that stopped anybody from making a decision? While at my grandmother's house the other day, I caught part of a Dr. Phil show where he's talking about parents who put their children through these sorts of things. There's chat sites parents visit where they say some of the most vile things that I've ever heard humans utter about each other's kids.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

17th August 2006, 08:19 AM	#45
Jaggy Bunnet Philosopher Join Date: May 2003 Location: Sunny Leith Posts: 6,147	Originally Posted by brodski You have to have a hell of a lot of confidence in the US justice system (or any justice system for that matter) to try that one though. The world has just herd him admit murdering a 6 year old, who he also admits to molesting, at the time of his arrest (for an unrelated sex crime) and confession he was living in Thailand, looking for work at a school. I will be very surprised if he isn't convicted, even if he decides to recant on his confession. If convicted is a death sentence likely? Or does the state the crime was committed in not have the death penalty? If it does, it makes a false confession to evade Thai justice pretty unlikely (or very stupid). Would that be admissable as evidence?

17th August 2006, 08:21 AM	#46
senorpogo Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,094	Considering how much the police screwed up the investigation, what's the chances that they'll get a conviction on this guy?

17th August 2006, 08:31 AM	#48
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,879	Originally Posted by senorpogo Considering how much the police screwed up the investigation, what's the chances that they'll get a conviction on this guy? With a confession, presuming it holds up? 100%.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

17th August 2006, 08:36 AM	#49
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,275	Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi There's chat sites parents visit where they say some of the most vile things that I've ever heard humans utter about each other's kids. That does not surprise me.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

17th August 2006, 08:42 AM	#50
senorpogo Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,094	Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi With a confession, presuming it holds up? 100%. Ah. Wasn't aware of the confession. I only saw a little news coverage last night.

17th August 2006, 08:52 AM	#51
brodski Tea-Time toad Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 15,077	Originally Posted by Jaggy Bunnet Would that be admissable as evidence? It will be in the media trial. I have no idea about the actual rules of evidence
brodski Tea-Time toad Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 15,077

17th August 2006, 09:00 AM	#52
Jaggy Bunnet Philosopher Join Date: May 2003 Location: Sunny Leith Posts: 6,147	Originally Posted by senorpogo Ah. Wasn't aware of the confession. I only saw a little news coverage last night. From what I saw he said he was present when she died but that it was an accident.

17th August 2006, 09:06 AM	#53
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,068	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer I suspect they were hounded because Patsy enjoyed dressing a 6 year old child like a cheap hooker and parading her around on stage. This has a lot to do with it, I think. Jerry Springer this morning stated that he couldn't believe Patsy Ramsey could do this because "only a monster could do that to her own daughter, and there would be other signs." My initial thought was, yeah, but it's not like the media didn't recognize this. She was consistently presented as a monster, and every move she made was interpreted in a sinister light. I'll admit, I was one who initially suspected her, although the lack of an indictment despite all the desparate work of the DA to find evidence against her made me doubt it. OTOH, guilty or not, I never had any respect for her, mainly for parading her 6 year old daughter around in those beauty pageants. Maybe not a monster, but still a creep, IMO.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

17th August 2006, 09:15 AM	#54
Molinaro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 3,031	Originally Posted by Jaggy Bunnet From what I saw he said he was present when she died but that it was an accident. True, but not in a good way! Today's stories quote him as saying to police: "I drugged her, sexualy assaulted her, then she died accidentaly"
	__________________ 100% Cannuck!

17th August 2006, 09:19 AM	#55
Jaggy Bunnet Philosopher Join Date: May 2003 Location: Sunny Leith Posts: 6,147	Originally Posted by Molinaro True, but not in a good way! Today's stories quote him as saying to police: "I drugged her, sexualy assaulted her, then she died accidentaly" I am in no way trying to defend him, simply stating what was said at the news conference. If he did say this then I'm afraid that makes his confession at odds with the coroners report which did not detect the presence of any drugs. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet1.html I have a horrible feeling that Axenos may be correct - this guy could simply be a publicity seeker.

17th August 2006, 09:21 AM	#56
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,525	Originally Posted by Jaggy Bunnet I have a horrible feeling that Axenos may be correct - this guy could simply be a publicity seeker. I suppose that's possible, but his confession came after the cops arrested him. If he was really a publicity hound, he would have voluntarily turned himself in rather than wait for arrest.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

17th August 2006, 09:24 AM	#57
Axenos Hedgehog Mahout Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Held Prisoner By Sheepling Central Command Posts: 3,314	Hence my CT theory that what he did was done for a necessary (to him) reason... it's all about timing after all.
	__________________ "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark Twain. Go Hedgehog!

17th August 2006, 09:27 AM	#58
Cyphermage Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 359	Originally Posted by Molinaro True, but not in a good way! Today's stories quote him as saying to police: "I drugged her, sexualy assaulted her, then she died accidentaly" Well the DA just held a press conference. They say it's early in the investigation, and they arrested the suspect prior to the investigation being complete. Fox News is discussing the possibility that the guy is a crank obsessed with child murders. No charges have been filed. Everything is under seal. It's not impossible that this guy is a pedo they arrested because he'd just gotten a job at a school, and was under investigation, and they have bupkis. Which would of course make them all look like fools. Oh, and the most interesting line of the press conference. "John Ramsey and John Karr are both presumed innocent." Weird.

17th August 2006, 11:46 AM	#59
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,275	Originally Posted by Navin I had the same reaction after seeing him talk and learning about his investigative obsession. Two facts give me concern that this ain't the killer: his wife says they were together for Christmas in '96 and we have yet to hear a hint of explanation of his connection to the Ramseys and Boulder, CO. That's a glaring hole to me. Not necesarily. Do you remember who you were with on August 17th, 1996?
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

17th August 2006, 11:54 AM	#60
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,008	Originally Posted by Cleon I suppose that's possible, but his confession came after the cops arrested him. If he was really a publicity hound, he would have voluntarily turned himself in rather than wait for arrest. He was communicating with an author who was writing about the case. He said some disturbing things to that author that caused him to go to the police, which led eventually to this arrest (from what I heard). Those facts fit plausibly with the idea that he's a nut trying to associate himself with the famous case, either for publicity reasons or other reasons. It should be pretty easy to establish if he was in Alabama at the time.
	__________________ Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him and wail him with monster truck force. - Cake, The Distance Was there a second singer on the grassy Knowles? - Stephen Colbert

17th August 2006, 12:06 PM	#61
Axenos Hedgehog Mahout Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Held Prisoner By Sheepling Central Command Posts: 3,314	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer Not necesarily. Do you remember who you were with on August 17th, 1996? Man, it's hard enough to remember August 17th, 2006... I have no idea where... Oh wait... that's today.
	__________________ "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark Twain. Go Hedgehog!

17th August 2006, 12:12 PM	#62
JamesDillon Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Berkeley, CA Posts: 2,631	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer Not necesarily. Do you remember who you were with on August 17th, 1996? No, but I could tell you where I was, and who I was with, on December 25, 1996.
	__________________ "To read the bible without horror, we must undo every thing that is tender, sympathising, and benevolent in the heart of man." --Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

17th August 2006, 12:17 PM	#63
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,275	Originally Posted by JamesDillon No, but I could tell you where I was, and who I was with, on December 25, 1996. I couldn't.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

17th August 2006, 12:56 PM	#64
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,804	I'm skeptical of his confession. Why would someone who broke into a house to molest a child write a lengthy ransom note after accidentally killing the child? As for the parents' possible involvement, I remember reading that the police determined that the ransom note was written on paper from the home. They announced that never before in the history of U.S. law enforcement has a kidnapper written a ransom note at the scene of a kidnapping. Was the claim that the note was written on paper from the Ramsey's house later disproven? Also what about the strange amount for the ransom: $118,000?

17th August 2006, 01:00 PM	#65
Katana Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 4,894	I think a lot will come down to the DNA evidence. If this guy's doesn't match the stuff found at the scene, he'll have a defense no matter what he said at that press conference. That press conference was really weird, by the way.
Katana Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 4,894	__________________ "I think Katana is as big of a perv as the rest of us." - Dragonrock "The rationality was there, and clear and concise. The condescention was hinted at and was like french onion dip on the perfect potato chip. Tasted like woo smackdown." - Fowlsound (aka Ducky, darnit) "Katana is one quick shut-yo-mouth!" - JonnyFive StopSylviaBrowne

17th August 2006, 01:11 PM	#66
HarryKeogh Catholic School Survivor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 11,342	Originally Posted by JamesDillon No, but I could tell you where I was, and who I was with, on December 25, 1996. I could but only because of unusual family circumstances. 1997? Nope.

17th August 2006, 01:15 PM	#67
Navin Student Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 33	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer Not necesarily. Do you remember who you were with on August 17th, 1996? As has been pointed out, the time in question was Christmas Day night. When confronted with your ex-husband's murder confession, I would think you could spend a few moments recalling the Christmases during your marriage. The ex-wife doesn't need to remember if she was with Karr on that date, but rather if her husband was ever absent from her and their kids at any Christmases - a fact that I presume is ordinarily pretty memorable for an American family. This is the most complete version of her alibi statement that I could find: "Laura Karr also tells us she's devastated and embarrassed by these murder charges, but she does not believe that her husband did it. She says that during Christmas season of 1996 when JonBenet Ramsey was strangled and beaten to death in Colorado, they were living in Alabama at the time and she was with him the entire Christmas season." From abc7news (dot) (com). There are still no hints/leaks from any sources on Karr's connection to the Ramseys or the Boulder area; also no forensic evidence has been shared. There's a good skeptical article at Court TV that discusses the same troubles with Karr's story. I can't post URLs, so try this address... crimelibrary.com/news/original/0806/1703_ramsey_arrest_john_karr.html and prepend the Ws.
Navin Student Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 33

17th August 2006, 01:17 PM	#68
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,525	Originally Posted by Katana I think a lot will come down to the DNA evidence. If this guy's doesn't match the stuff found at the scene, he'll have a defense no matter what he said at that press conference. I agree. It's a "wait and see" situation. Personally, I find it puzzling that out of all the unsolved child murders out there, this one still warrants front-page news--even a decade later.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

17th August 2006, 01:41 PM	#69
HarryKeogh Catholic School Survivor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 11,342	Originally Posted by Cleon I agree. It's a "wait and see" situation. Personally, I find it puzzling that out of all the unsolved child murders out there, this one still warrants front-page news--even a decade later. Cute, white and from a well to family helps maintain interest. This one didn't get much attention... Ugly girl killed.

17th August 2006, 02:35 PM	#70
Segnosaur Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 6,067	Originally Posted by Cleon I suppose that's possible, but his confession came after the cops arrested him. If he was really a publicity hound, he would have voluntarily turned himself in rather than wait for arrest. Not necessarily. He may have wanted publicity, but wanted freedom more. There is a chance he was going to go to jail based on charges based on what happened in Tailand. If that was true, he would loose his freedom anyways, so he'd have nothing to loose by confessing to the Ramsey murder, yet get some publicity. Ever hear of Disalvo? (Better known as the "Boston Strangler".) He was arrested for various sexual assaults, and confessed to the Strangler murders; however, his personality didn't fit the killer's profile, and there is forensic evidence that might clear him.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I cheered when then the WTC came down. - UndercoverElephant (a.k.a. JustGeoff) I cheer Bin Laden... - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Bin Laden delivered justice - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Men shop for lingerie the way kids shop for breakfast cereal... they will buy something they know nothing about, just to get the prize inside. - Jeff Foxworthy

17th August 2006, 02:46 PM	#71
Segnosaur Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 6,067	Originally Posted by Ladewig I'm skeptical of his confession. Why would someone who broke into a house to molest a child write a lengthy ransom note after accidentally killing the child? Why do you think the note would have to be written after the murder? What may have happened was that the killer may have entered the house when the Ramseys were out and written the note then, waiting in the basement until everyone had gone to bed before acting. (This was suggested in the 'Cases that haunt us' book mentioned earlier.) Quote: As for the parents' possible involvement, I remember reading that the police determined that the ransom note was written on paper from the home. They announced that never before in the history of U.S. law enforcement has a kidnapper written a ransom note at the scene of a kidnapping. Was the claim that the note was written on paper from the Ramsey's house later disproven? Don't think it was disproven, but there are reasons why the note was written on paper taken from the house: The killer could have decided not to bring a note from outside because of the risk that it may give clues to his identity. (How many crime shows have we seen where they trace the killer because someone identified the paper a note was written on?) Or, he may have brought a note, but decided to re-write it while waiting. Quote: Also what about the strange amount for the ransom: $118,000? There were a couple of possibilities... One reasonable amount for the ransom is that the father had recently received a bonus from his company in approximately that amount; a killer may have seen a pay stub and based the amount on what they had seen.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I cheered when then the WTC came down. - UndercoverElephant (a.k.a. JustGeoff) I cheer Bin Laden... - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Bin Laden delivered justice - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Men shop for lingerie the way kids shop for breakfast cereal... they will buy something they know nothing about, just to get the prize inside. - Jeff Foxworthy

17th August 2006, 02:52 PM	#72
Segnosaur Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 6,067	Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi That, and the body being found in their own house, with no list of alternative suspects. Of course, one of the problems is that it wasn't widely known that there was a broken window in the basement that would have allowed entry to pretty much anyone. The police did state that 'no footprints were found in the snow', but they failed to state that there wasn't actually much snow around to actually leave the footprints in.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I cheered when then the WTC came down. - UndercoverElephant (a.k.a. JustGeoff) I cheer Bin Laden... - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Bin Laden delivered justice - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Men shop for lingerie the way kids shop for breakfast cereal... they will buy something they know nothing about, just to get the prize inside. - Jeff Foxworthy

17th August 2006, 03:01 PM	#73
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,936	Originally Posted by Jocko Heard some curious details on the radio this morning - can't cite a source, so take it as you will: * The suspect's wife (ex-wife?) swears they were both in Alabama at the time. * The suspect has been in contact with investigators and a Colorado University professor on the Ramsey case, as background for a book he was writing on the subject. * The suspect somehow tried to involve himself with the Polly Klass case, though nothing apparently came of it. * The guy's generally obsessed with child porn and abduction/murder, but in a fanboy sort of way, not as an actual criminal. Frankly, even if the above is true and he's just a sick psychopath, I'd be glad to see him locked in a hole forever. But it's certainly not the picture of a person I'd charge and call a slam-dunk case. Curious aside: In 1997 I was working with a producer for A&E Investigative Reports - with Bill Kurtis (a voice like honey over pancakes). The story I heard from him - which he heard from Kurtis - who supposedly heard it from the FBI - is that Jonbenet was asphyxiated during the act of fellatio. The coroner's report doesn't jibe with this, so frankly I think anything is possible. The part where ex-wife says they were living in (and more importantly IN) Alabama at the time of the murder is definite (the statement being made, not verification though). On, at least, the MSNBC web site.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,936

17th August 2006, 03:29 PM	#74
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,804	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Why do you think the note would have to be written after the murder? What may have happened was that the killer may have entered the house when the Ramseys were out and written the note then, waiting in the basement until everyone had gone to bed before acting. (This was suggested in the 'Cases that haunt us' book mentioned earlier.) If he wrote the note before the murder that means he was planning on kidnapping the girl. Why would he interrupt the kidnapping to have sex with the girl in the house? If sexual assault was part of the motivation for the kidnapping, then why not take the girl from the house, have sex with her at a remote location, and then try to collect the ransom? Quote: Don't think it was disproven, but there are reasons why the note was written on paper taken from the house: The killer could have decided not to bring a note from outside because of the risk that it may give clues to his identity. (How many crime shows have we seen where they trace the killer because someone identified the paper a note was written on?) Or, he may have brought a note, but decided to re-write it while waiting. So he figured using his own paper would give clues to his identity but handwriting a three-page ransom note would not?

17th August 2006, 04:20 PM	#75
brooklyn44 Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Location: Lawn Guyland, Nu Yawk Posts: 240	Originally Posted by Axenos Personal opinion after watching the clip: I have a feeling that he may be a nut... but a smart one. Nobody would like to be an American in a foreign jail right now so: If he was about to get busted in Thailand for an unrelated sex crime, then it would make sense to confess to a worldwide publicized murder in the US... to get extradition back here. He get's back here and they find out it's not him... he maybe has to go through some treatment, and I would wager that the US would not extradite him back to Thailand unless Thailand's case was solid. There are numerous cases of people confessing to crimes they did not commit... and in this case it may well serve the confessors needs. What an inventive mind....this is a terrif plot for a made-for-TV movie..Are you a screenwirter?