Breaking News: Police Arrest Suspect in JonBenet Ramsey Case - Page 3

Ipecac · 18th August 2006, 06:49 AM

Yeah, this is definitely starting to smell. The guy seems like a nut. Right now, it doesn't seem to add up. We can only wait and see.

I really, really hope this is the guy who did it.

Segnosaur · 18th August 2006, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Quote:

Why do you think the note would have to be written after the murder?

What may have happened was that the killer may have entered the house when the Ramseys were out and written the note then, waiting in the basement until everyone had gone to bed before acting. (This was suggested in the 'Cases that haunt us' book mentioned earlier.)

If he wrote the note before the murder that means he was planning on kidnapping the girl. Why would he interrupt the kidnapping to have sex with the girl in the house? If sexual assault was part of the motivation for the kidnapping, then why not take the girl from the house, have sex with her at a remote location, and then try to collect the ransom?

Again from the 'Cases that Haunt Us' book... the person who committed the crime was possibly someone that had a personal grudge against the Ramseys, and kidnapping/torturing the daughter was a way to get back at them. They may not have ever expected to collect any ransom, but only demanded one as a way to 'get back' at the family.

Quote:

So he figured using his own paper would give clues to his identity but handwriting a three-page ransom note would not?

Well, I did suggest avoiding forensics being able to track him had he brought a note from home as only one of his possible motivations. (As I pointed out, he may have simply wanted to reword things once he got into the house, perhaps after finding more information about the Ramseys when inside. )

As for the length of the note, the killer may have been more interested in hurting the Ramseys and/or making himself look more menacing by making it longer (and putting in stronger phrases).

From what I've seen from the note, there were a lot of movie references (phrases that were taken from Speed, Dirty Harry, and other 'action' movies, many of which were common at the time.)

Segnosaur · 18th August 2006, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

Agree with this. There was, allegedly, no forced entry to the house. How did he get in? Did he have a key? Did someone let him in? Was the door routinely unlocked? If the last, how did he know this?

There were a couple of ways the killer could have gained entrance...

There was a broken window in the basement that hadn't been fixed for a while. (The police originally leaked the information that there were no footprints in the snow around the house, but the truth is, there was very little snow on the ground anyways.)

Secondly, the Ramseys had recently had some renovation work done on their house, and there WERE several copies of keys floating around that weren't in the family's posession (being left with various workers, etc.)

This doesn't prove that the guy recently arrested in Thailand was guilty, but it does suggest whoever the killer was, they did have ways to get into the house. (Although I doubt whether Karr would have known the Ramseys well enough to know about the broken window or to have a key.)

The Central Scrutinizer · 18th August 2006, 09:01 AM

It gets curiouser and curiouser.

From CNN:

Quote:

A U.S. law enforcement official tells CNN that the man held in the slaying of JonBenet Ramsey offered details about the condition of her body that have never been made public.

Just thinking · 18th August 2006, 09:22 AM

I just heard on some news channel that the DA keeps emphasizing that it's Innocent until Proven Guilty ... I think this investigation is headed south.

timhau · 18th August 2006, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by CNN

A U.S. law enforcement official tells CNN that the man held in the slaying of JonBenet Ramsey offered details about the condition of her body that have never been made public.

I thought one of the main problems with the investigation was that right from the start, the Boulder police/DA couldn't keep much of anything secret.

MrMonty · 18th August 2006, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by timhau

I thought one of the main problems with the investigation was that right from the start, the Boulder police/DA couldn't keep much of anything secret.

This is what really gets me. It's a "secret" that only the coroner knows... well the coroner and some police investigators... I mean, only the coroner, some inept police investigators, their spouses, maybe some clergymen, probably their children, and maybe a few thousand people that read one of those people's remarks in a chatroom or on a forum. Not to mention he may have had just enough knowledge to make a good educated guess. Or, maybe he did a bit of his own cold reading while discussing this with an investigator.

I'll take things like where he was, how he knew the victims, and his contradictory statements over the "He couldn't have known these details any other way!" How many times have we heard that coming from a "psychic" customer/victim?

Monty

timhau · 18th August 2006, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by MrMonty

I'll take things like where he was, how he knew the victims, and his contradictory statements over the "He couldn't have known these details any other way!"

Yeah, big holes in there... although I think all that drugging and "he took her home from school" stuff came from his questioning by the Thai police, and there either the interrogator or Karr himself was using a foreign language. And I suppose he *could* be completely in his own little la-la land where he and a 6-year-old can be lovers and you can accidentally kill people with a garrotte. But the big one is the ex-wife's claim that he was in Alabama when the murder took place. And remember, this is not likely to be an ex-wife who's still pining for him -- she had a restraining order against him at one point.

MrMonty · 18th August 2006, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by timhau

And remember, this is not likely to be an ex-wife who's still pining for him -- she had a restraining order against him at one point.

Exactly. Not to mention I just read some stuff about him "marrying" a 13 year old when he was 19. Having twins with some other teenager later, which he delivered at home, and which died at birth. Along with some other bizarre stuff that former coworkers, bosses, and friends have mentioned.

Plus, what kind of kidnapper or killer researches and becomes obsessed about their own crime? Also, has he said he actually did it. All I've heard are "I was present when she died." and "It was an accident." Too bad, this case will probably go cold for good after this.

Monty

Axenos · 18th August 2006, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by MrMonty

Plus, what kind of kidnapper or killer researches and becomes obsessed about their own crime?

It's been written that serial killers are often obsessed by their crime... to the point of collecting newspaper clippings and actual souveniers of the victims, from jewelry to body parts.

However, I still stand by my theory that this isn't the culprit...

MrMonty · 18th August 2006, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Axenos

It's been written that serial killers are often obsessed by their crime... to the point of collecting newspaper clippings and actual souveniers of the victims, from jewelry to body parts.

This just sounds different. What I've read made him out to be more inquisitive and doing research as opposed to collecting momentos and reveling in all the publicity the case got. Right now, I'm around 80% convinced he's not the guy.

Although... It's blatantly obvious people. He drove around in a flashy red DeLorean!!! I'm betting his trips to Thailand involved some black market Plutonium. It's all so clear to me now, why haven't the investigators picked up on this connection? I predict Christopher Lloyd will soon be brought in for questioning and arrested as an accomplice.

Monty

The Central Scrutinizer · 18th August 2006, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Navin

As has been pointed out, the time in question was Christmas Day night. When confronted with your ex-husband's murder confession, I would think you could spend a few moments recalling the Christmases during your marriage. The ex-wife doesn't need to remember if she was with Karr on that date, but rather if her husband was ever absent from her and their kids at any Christmases - a fact that I presume is ordinarily pretty memorable for an American family.

From here: http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/18/ka...ons/index.html

Quote:

One of those questions was raised by Karr's former wife, Lara Karr, who says he was with her in Alabama or Georgia during the 1996 Christmas holidays.

So she can specifically recall that they were together for Xmas, but can't remember what state they were in?

timhau · 18th August 2006, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

So she can specifically recall that they were together for Xmas, but can't remember what state they were in?

I don't think it's really that far-fetched. I don't remember whether my wife and I spent the Christmas of 1996 at my parents or at home, but I do know we were together.

Thanz · 18th August 2006, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

So she can specifically recall that they were together for Xmas, but can't remember what state they were in?

Not so odd, actually. For example, let's say that they either spend Christmas at her parents in Georgia or his in Alabama, she knows that there was not a Christmas that he wasn't around, but can't recall if that specific Christmas was at her parents or his.

Segnosaur · 18th August 2006, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

So she can specifically recall that they were together for Xmas, but can't remember what state they were in?

Well, that's not that suprising...

If they moved around a lot, it may be possible to get confused as to exact location, but if they were ALWAYS together for christmas, you can be pretty assured that Karr wasn't in Colorodo regardless of what state they were living in.

Ipecac · 18th August 2006, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

If they moved around a lot, it may be possible to get confused as to exact location, but if they were ALWAYS together for christmas, you can be pretty assured that Karr wasn't in Colorodo regardless of what state they were living in.

Ah ha! But you've overlooked one important possibility. What if they were living in . . . Colorado!?! Dun dun duhhhhh. (Sorry, a bit punchy here.)

Navin · 18th August 2006, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

From here: cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/18/karr.questions/index.html

So she can specifically recall that they were together for Xmas, but can't remember what state they were in?

And from the next paragraph in your linked article we read:

But Lara Karr's attorney, Michael Rains, said his client "sincerely believes there was no Christmas ... anytime between 1989 and 2000 when they were married ... when her husband was not with her and her family at Christmastime."

I think it's very plausible that Karr's absence/presence is more memorable than whether they were at home (AL) or at the in-laws (GA). Especially so if they changed the location of their Xmas from year to year. I concede that her memory of the events is not, by itself, exculpatory here. For me it's just a very significant data point along with the absence of any leaked evidence that connects him with the Ramseys or Boulder. It's an argument from absence of evidence true, but the lack of hypothesized connections in 1996 between Karr and that particular family in that particular town is a glaring omission. I fully expected that some explanation of the connection would be leaked. I now believe they don't have an explanation.

I predict now that Karr will be cleared (against his best efforts apparently).

The Central Scrutinizer · 18th August 2006, 12:19 PM

I guess I just don't trust memory that much. If you had asked me where I spend Xmas every year, I would say with my parents. But I wouldn't guarantee it.

timhau · 18th August 2006, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Navin

the lack of hypothesized connections in 1996 between Karr and that particular family in that particular town is a glaring omission. I fully expected that some explanation of the connection would be leaked. I now believe they don't have an explanation.

I predict now that Karr will be cleared (against his best efforts apparently).

It's also possible that the Boulder DA is being very tight-lipped now, because the last time around they weren't, and it all turned into one big circus.

It's true, though, that Karr himself seems hell-bent on getting punished. So far, I'm very much not impressed by the confession, but I'm easy to convince. Give me a DNA match and we're in business.

Jorghnassen · 18th August 2006, 01:22 PM

I only have one question: what kind of a name is JonBenet?

timhau · 18th August 2006, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Jorghnassen

I only have one question: what kind of a name is JonBenet?

A strange one. It comes from his father's first and middle name, which are John Bennett. The kid's middle name was from her mother. Creepy, but not any more creepy than beauty pageants for pre-schoolers. The phrase "6-year-old beauty queen" has all the naturalness of "3-year-old Pro-Bowl defensive tackle".

Jorghnassen · 18th August 2006, 02:16 PM

So it's a girl with 2 guy names, just spelled funny.

wolfgirl · 18th August 2006, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by timhau

A strange one. It comes from his father's first and middle name, which are John Bennett. The kid's middle name was from her mother. Creepy, but not any more creepy than beauty pageants for pre-schoolers. The phrase "6-year-old beauty queen" has all the naturalness of "3-year-old Pro-Bowl defensive tackle".

I can't help thinking that, if this IS the guy (and I'm far from convinced that it is), her parents' havit of dressing a little 6-year-old girl up in pretty outfits and putting makeup on her to make her look much older and sexier can't have helped. Him saying how beautiful she was, like a beauty queen, and that they were lovers, is a fantasy that seems not so far-fetched (to a psychotic mind) when she looked like a miniature prostitute. (Nothing against the poor little girl. It wasn't her fault. But her mother used to put mascara on her to send her to kindergarten and would get her out of school to go get her hair highlighted, for christ's sake!)

The Central Scrutinizer · 18th August 2006, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by wolfgirl

I can't help thinking that, if this IS the guy (and I'm far from convinced that it is), her parents' havit of dressing a little 6-year-old girl up in pretty outfits and putting makeup on her to make her look much older and sexier can't have helped. Him saying how beautiful she was, like a beauty queen, and that they were lovers, is a fantasy that seems not so far-fetched (to a psychotic mind) when she looked like a miniature prostitute. (Nothing against the poor little girl. It wasn't her fault. But her mother used to put mascara on her to send her to kindergarten and would get her out of school to go get her hair highlighted, for christ's sake!)

I have argued since day one that their behavior constituted child abuse.

BPSCG · 18th August 2006, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by timhau

The kid's middle name was from her mother. Creepy, but not any more creepy than beauty pageants for pre-schoolers. The phrase "6-year-old beauty queen" has all the naturalness of "3-year-old Pro-Bowl defensive tackle".

By sheer coincidence, Mrs. BPSCG and I saw Little Miss Sunshine at the movies last weekend, a comedy about an 8-year old girl who enters a beauty pageant.

!!!SPOILER ALERT!!!

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She's in 'way over her head - she's cute enough, as an eight-year old, but even dressed up for the pageant, she's something of an ugly duckling. I felt a little unclean watching these other girls primping and giving sexy smiles to the audience. When our heroine comes on stage to do her routine, you figure she's going to be badly embarrased.

She does a strip-tease.

Naturally, everyone (in the movie) is shocked and terribly scandalized. But I wondered, why is it just wonderful to have eight-year-old girls dress up in rhinestone-studded bikinis and give sexy come-hither smiles to people old enough to be her parents, while going one step farther and doing a strip-tease is way out of bounds?

We walked out of there talking about JonBenet Ramsey, and we weren't the only ones. I took a three-hour bath in Clorox when we got home.

Actually a pretty decent movie.

Segnosaur · 18th August 2006, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by timhau

It's also possible that the Boulder DA is being very tight-lipped now, because the last time around they weren't, and it all turned into one big circus.

Right. Plus, there's another reason...

The DA may want to avoid talking about details because, if the person is lying, they may need to keep stuff hidden for the NEXT person who confesses. If they reveal what details Karr got right and got wrong, it makes it easier if someone else ever wants to try a false confession.

hgc · 18th August 2006, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

By sheer coincidence, Mrs. BPSCG and I saw Little Miss Sunshine at the movies last weekend, a comedy about an 8-year old girl who enters a beauty pageant.

!!!SPOILER ALERT!!!

...

I saw this too, and yes a really fine and funny movie it is. You left out the one detail of the beauty pagent which really gave me the creeps: The motorcycle dude who was sitting in the audience, scoping out the little girls. That was a little too JonBenet-close for comfort.

JamesDillon · 18th August 2006, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

By sheer coincidence, Mrs. BPSCG and I saw Little Miss Sunshine at the movies last weekend, a comedy about an 8-year old girl who enters a beauty pageant.

!!!SPOILER ALERT!!!

I was just thinking of posting about that movie. The ending scene was one of the creepiest I've seen in a film, because of how all the other girls looked. And, as an aside, I thought it was an excellent movie. Highly recommended.

BPSCG · 19th August 2006, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by hgc

I saw this too, and yes a really fine and funny movie it is. You left out the one detail of the beauty pagent which really gave me the creeps: The motorcycle dude who was sitting in the audience, scoping out the little girls. That was a little too JonBenet-close for comfort.

Yeah, though this guy Karr sure doesn't look like a biker. On another child-molestor thread some time back, I checked our local online sex-offender registry. Lots of photos. Some of them looked like guys who would happily break a beer bottle across your face. Some of them looked like the guy in the next cubicle. You don't come away thinking, "Okay, now I know what a pervert looks like."

The Central Scrutinizer · 20th August 2006, 06:36 PM

So, is he back home yet? I heard he was drinking beer on the plane.

The Central Scrutinizer · 28th August 2006, 01:42 PM

Breaking news: Charges dropped against JonBenet suspect.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/28/ra...est/index.html

No surprise, I suppose.

slingblade · 28th August 2006, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

Breaking news: Charges dropped against JonBenet suspect.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/28/ra...est/index.html

No surprise, I suppose.

Not really.

Wouldn't there be charges of some kind regarding his apparently false confession? I mean, the money and hours wasted.... Surely one doesn't just get away with that, does one?

And here's hoping he never, ever teaches again.

The Central Scrutinizer · 28th August 2006, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by slingblade

Not really.

Wouldn't there be charges of some kind regarding his apparently false confession? I mean, the money and hours wasted.... Surely one doesn't just get away with that, does one?

And here's hoping he never, ever teaches again.

Interfering with an investigation perhaps? I don't know.

The Mutha · 28th August 2006, 02:09 PM

He got a free ride back to the States, courtesy of you and me. Hopefully he'll get some kind of a bill for it.

WildCat · 28th August 2006, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

Breaking news: Charges dropped against JonBenet suspect.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/28/ra...est/index.html

No surprise, I suppose.

[gomer_pyle]
Surprise, surprise, surprise!
[/gomer]

Katana · 28th August 2006, 02:26 PM

Friggin' waste of time and money.

Does this mean that he goes back to Thailand to face his charges there? Who wants to pay for that trip?

hgc · 28th August 2006, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by slingblade

Not really.

Wouldn't there be charges of some kind regarding his apparently false confession? I mean, the money and hours wasted.... Surely one doesn't just get away with that, does one?

And here's hoping he never, ever teaches again.

The money and hours wasted is not a valid claim on his legal liability, in my opinion. I don't know about people being prosecuted for false confessions, but the expense taken to bring him to Boulder is definitely the problem of the local authorities and not the suspect.

Reminds me of the case of the runaway bride. She was wrongly prosecuted, and inexplicably struck a deal, for an alleged crime (falsely stating to the police over the phone she had been kidnapped) that was being blamed for the expense and trouble of looking for her -- even though all the looking had been done with before she ever made the claim.

I know this guy is a different case, but again, he's not responsible for the expense of bringing him to justice. If he had been arrested in Thailand and kept his mouth shut the entire time, he would still have been brought back to Boulder, no?

slingblade · 28th August 2006, 02:39 PM

I guess. I'll defer to those who know more about it than I do. It just seems wrong to me. Oh, well.

davefoc · 28th August 2006, 02:39 PM

It was the Ramsey attorney that really kicked this thing off with a bunch of information about how this was really the guy.

And now we have the Karr attrorney telling us details about the case that suggest that Karr isn't the guy.

Why do these guys have standing to comment at all? They are just second hand sources that wouldn't be sources at all if the DA didn't allow them to have the information.

It looks to me like once again we have the situation where the rattling of defense attorney vocal cords is closer to background noise than anything resembling a source of real information.

slingblade · 28th August 2006, 02:55 PM

One news report I'm watching said "They've let him go...."

My mind-movie features him running out of the courthouse with his arms waving wildly over his head, mooing and clucking and squealing....

[cue Attenborough-type narrator]
"The wild pedophile is released back into his habitat, obviously happy to return to his home environment, able to run free...."

18th August 2006, 06:49 AM	#81
Ipecac Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,852	Yeah, this is definitely starting to smell. The guy seems like a nut. Right now, it doesn't seem to add up. We can only wait and see. I really, really hope this is the guy who did it.
Ipecac Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,852

18th August 2006, 08:33 AM	#82
Segnosaur Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 6,072	Originally Posted by Ladewig Quote: Why do you think the note would have to be written after the murder? What may have happened was that the killer may have entered the house when the Ramseys were out and written the note then, waiting in the basement until everyone had gone to bed before acting. (This was suggested in the 'Cases that haunt us' book mentioned earlier.) If he wrote the note before the murder that means he was planning on kidnapping the girl. Why would he interrupt the kidnapping to have sex with the girl in the house? If sexual assault was part of the motivation for the kidnapping, then why not take the girl from the house, have sex with her at a remote location, and then try to collect the ransom? Again from the 'Cases that Haunt Us' book... the person who committed the crime was possibly someone that had a personal grudge against the Ramseys, and kidnapping/torturing the daughter was a way to get back at them. They may not have ever expected to collect any ransom, but only demanded one as a way to 'get back' at the family. Quote: So he figured using his own paper would give clues to his identity but handwriting a three-page ransom note would not? Well, I did suggest avoiding forensics being able to track him had he brought a note from home as only one of his possible motivations. (As I pointed out, he may have simply wanted to reword things once he got into the house, perhaps after finding more information about the Ramseys when inside. ) As for the length of the note, the killer may have been more interested in hurting the Ramseys and/or making himself look more menacing by making it longer (and putting in stronger phrases). From what I've seen from the note, there were a lot of movie references (phrases that were taken from Speed, Dirty Harry, and other 'action' movies, many of which were common at the time.)
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I cheered when then the WTC came down. - UndercoverElephant (a.k.a. JustGeoff) I cheer Bin Laden... - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Bin Laden delivered justice - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Men shop for lingerie the way kids shop for breakfast cereal... they will buy something they know nothing about, just to get the prize inside. - Jeff Foxworthy

18th August 2006, 08:48 AM	#83
Segnosaur Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 6,072	Originally Posted by BPSCG Agree with this. There was, allegedly, no forced entry to the house. How did he get in? Did he have a key? Did someone let him in? Was the door routinely unlocked? If the last, how did he know this? There were a couple of ways the killer could have gained entrance... There was a broken window in the basement that hadn't been fixed for a while. (The police originally leaked the information that there were no footprints in the snow around the house, but the truth is, there was very little snow on the ground anyways.) Secondly, the Ramseys had recently had some renovation work done on their house, and there WERE several copies of keys floating around that weren't in the family's posession (being left with various workers, etc.) This doesn't prove that the guy recently arrested in Thailand was guilty, but it does suggest whoever the killer was, they did have ways to get into the house. (Although I doubt whether Karr would have known the Ramseys well enough to know about the broken window or to have a key.)
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I cheered when then the WTC came down. - UndercoverElephant (a.k.a. JustGeoff) I cheer Bin Laden... - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Bin Laden delivered justice - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Men shop for lingerie the way kids shop for breakfast cereal... they will buy something they know nothing about, just to get the prize inside. - Jeff Foxworthy

18th August 2006, 09:01 AM	#84
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,278	It gets curiouser and curiouser. From CNN: Quote: A U.S. law enforcement official tells CNN that the man held in the slaying of JonBenet Ramsey offered details about the condition of her body that have never been made public.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

18th August 2006, 09:22 AM	#85
Just thinking Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,169	I just heard on some news channel that the DA keeps emphasizing that it's Innocent until Proven Guilty ... I think this investigation is headed south.
	__________________ Our greatest challenge is not just to ask the important questions, but to recognize the meaningless ones.

18th August 2006, 10:13 AM	#86
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: East of Sweeden Posts: 9,694	Originally Posted by CNN A U.S. law enforcement official tells CNN that the man held in the slaying of JonBenet Ramsey offered details about the condition of her body that have never been made public. I thought one of the main problems with the investigation was that right from the start, the Boulder police/DA couldn't keep much of anything secret.

18th August 2006, 10:31 AM	#87
MrMonty Thinker Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 188	Originally Posted by timhau I thought one of the main problems with the investigation was that right from the start, the Boulder police/DA couldn't keep much of anything secret. This is what really gets me. It's a "secret" that only the coroner knows... well the coroner and some police investigators... I mean, only the coroner, some inept police investigators, their spouses, maybe some clergymen, probably their children, and maybe a few thousand people that read one of those people's remarks in a chatroom or on a forum. Not to mention he may have had just enough knowledge to make a good educated guess. Or, maybe he did a bit of his own cold reading while discussing this with an investigator. I'll take things like where he was, how he knew the victims, and his contradictory statements over the "He couldn't have known these details any other way!" How many times have we heard that coming from a "psychic" customer/victim? Monty
MrMonty Thinker Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 188

18th August 2006, 10:48 AM	#88
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: East of Sweeden Posts: 9,694	Originally Posted by MrMonty I'll take things like where he was, how he knew the victims, and his contradictory statements over the "He couldn't have known these details any other way!" Yeah, big holes in there... although I think all that drugging and "he took her home from school" stuff came from his questioning by the Thai police, and there either the interrogator or Karr himself was using a foreign language. And I suppose he could be completely in his own little la-la land where he and a 6-year-old can be lovers and you can accidentally kill people with a garrotte. But the big one is the ex-wife's claim that he was in Alabama when the murder took place. And remember, this is not likely to be an ex-wife who's still pining for him -- she had a restraining order against him at one point.

18th August 2006, 10:58 AM	#89
MrMonty Thinker Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 188	Originally Posted by timhau And remember, this is not likely to be an ex-wife who's still pining for him -- she had a restraining order against him at one point. Exactly. Not to mention I just read some stuff about him "marrying" a 13 year old when he was 19. Having twins with some other teenager later, which he delivered at home, and which died at birth. Along with some other bizarre stuff that former coworkers, bosses, and friends have mentioned. Plus, what kind of kidnapper or killer researches and becomes obsessed about their own crime? Also, has he said he actually did it. All I've heard are "I was present when she died." and "It was an accident." Too bad, this case will probably go cold for good after this. Monty
MrMonty Thinker Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 188

18th August 2006, 11:14 AM	#90
Axenos Hedgehog Mahout Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Held Prisoner By Sheepling Central Command Posts: 3,314	Originally Posted by MrMonty Plus, what kind of kidnapper or killer researches and becomes obsessed about their own crime? It's been written that serial killers are often obsessed by their crime... to the point of collecting newspaper clippings and actual souveniers of the victims, from jewelry to body parts. However, I still stand by my theory that this isn't the culprit...
	__________________ "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark Twain. Go Hedgehog!

18th August 2006, 11:31 AM	#91
MrMonty Thinker Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 188	Originally Posted by Axenos It's been written that serial killers are often obsessed by their crime... to the point of collecting newspaper clippings and actual souveniers of the victims, from jewelry to body parts. This just sounds different. What I've read made him out to be more inquisitive and doing research as opposed to collecting momentos and reveling in all the publicity the case got. Right now, I'm around 80% convinced he's not the guy. Although... It's blatantly obvious people. He drove around in a flashy red DeLorean!!! I'm betting his trips to Thailand involved some black market Plutonium. It's all so clear to me now, why haven't the investigators picked up on this connection? I predict Christopher Lloyd will soon be brought in for questioning and arrested as an accomplice. Monty
MrMonty Thinker Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 188

18th August 2006, 11:36 AM	#92
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,278	Originally Posted by Navin As has been pointed out, the time in question was Christmas Day night. When confronted with your ex-husband's murder confession, I would think you could spend a few moments recalling the Christmases during your marriage. The ex-wife doesn't need to remember if she was with Karr on that date, but rather if her husband was ever absent from her and their kids at any Christmases - a fact that I presume is ordinarily pretty memorable for an American family. From here: http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/18/ka...ons/index.html Quote: One of those questions was raised by Karr's former wife, Lara Karr, who says he was with her in Alabama or Georgia during the 1996 Christmas holidays. So she can specifically recall that they were together for Xmas, but can't remember what state they were in?
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

18th August 2006, 11:45 AM	#93
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: East of Sweeden Posts: 9,694	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer So she can specifically recall that they were together for Xmas, but can't remember what state they were in? I don't think it's really that far-fetched. I don't remember whether my wife and I spent the Christmas of 1996 at my parents or at home, but I do know we were together.
	Last edited by timhau; 18th August 2006 at 11:48 AM.

18th August 2006, 11:47 AM	#94
Thanz Fuzzy Thinker Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centre of the Universe Posts: 3,850	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer So she can specifically recall that they were together for Xmas, but can't remember what state they were in? Not so odd, actually. For example, let's say that they either spend Christmas at her parents in Georgia or his in Alabama, she knows that there was not a Christmas that he wasn't around, but can't recall if that specific Christmas was at her parents or his.
	__________________ "I am totally with Thanz on this one." -- Yahzi

18th August 2006, 11:50 AM	#95
Segnosaur Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 6,072	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer So she can specifically recall that they were together for Xmas, but can't remember what state they were in? Well, that's not that suprising... If they moved around a lot, it may be possible to get confused as to exact location, but if they were ALWAYS together for christmas, you can be pretty assured that Karr wasn't in Colorodo regardless of what state they were living in.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I cheered when then the WTC came down. - UndercoverElephant (a.k.a. JustGeoff) I cheer Bin Laden... - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Bin Laden delivered justice - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Men shop for lingerie the way kids shop for breakfast cereal... they will buy something they know nothing about, just to get the prize inside. - Jeff Foxworthy

18th August 2006, 12:00 PM	#96
Ipecac Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,852	Originally Posted by Segnosaur If they moved around a lot, it may be possible to get confused as to exact location, but if they were ALWAYS together for christmas, you can be pretty assured that Karr wasn't in Colorodo regardless of what state they were living in. Ah ha! But you've overlooked one important possibility. What if they were living in . . . Colorado!?! Dun dun duhhhhh. (Sorry, a bit punchy here.)
Ipecac Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,852

18th August 2006, 12:16 PM	#97
Navin Student Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 33	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer From here: cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/18/karr.questions/index.html So she can specifically recall that they were together for Xmas, but can't remember what state they were in? And from the next paragraph in your linked article we read: But Lara Karr's attorney, Michael Rains, said his client "sincerely believes there was no Christmas ... anytime between 1989 and 2000 when they were married ... when her husband was not with her and her family at Christmastime." I think it's very plausible that Karr's absence/presence is more memorable than whether they were at home (AL) or at the in-laws (GA). Especially so if they changed the location of their Xmas from year to year. I concede that her memory of the events is not, by itself, exculpatory here. For me it's just a very significant data point along with the absence of any leaked evidence that connects him with the Ramseys or Boulder. It's an argument from absence of evidence true, but the lack of hypothesized connections in 1996 between Karr and that particular family in that particular town is a glaring omission. I fully expected that some explanation of the connection would be leaked. I now believe they don't have an explanation. I predict now that Karr will be cleared (against his best efforts apparently).
Navin Student Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 33

18th August 2006, 12:19 PM	#98
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,278	I guess I just don't trust memory that much. If you had asked me where I spend Xmas every year, I would say with my parents. But I wouldn't guarantee it.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

18th August 2006, 12:24 PM	#99
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: East of Sweeden Posts: 9,694	Originally Posted by Navin the lack of hypothesized connections in 1996 between Karr and that particular family in that particular town is a glaring omission. I fully expected that some explanation of the connection would be leaked. I now believe they don't have an explanation. I predict now that Karr will be cleared (against his best efforts apparently). It's also possible that the Boulder DA is being very tight-lipped now, because the last time around they weren't, and it all turned into one big circus. It's true, though, that Karr himself seems hell-bent on getting punished. So far, I'm very much not impressed by the confession, but I'm easy to convince. Give me a DNA match and we're in business.

18th August 2006, 01:22 PM	#100
Jorghnassen Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The realm of ideas Posts: 3,882	I only have one question: what kind of a name is JonBenet?
	__________________ "Help control the local pet population: teach your dog abstinence." -Stephen Colbert "My dad believed laughter is the best medicine. Which is why several of us died of tuberculosis."- Unknown source, heard from Grey Delisle on Rob Paulsen's podcast

18th August 2006, 01:29 PM	#101
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: East of Sweeden Posts: 9,694	Originally Posted by Jorghnassen I only have one question: what kind of a name is JonBenet? A strange one. It comes from his father's first and middle name, which are John Bennett. The kid's middle name was from her mother. Creepy, but not any more creepy than beauty pageants for pre-schoolers. The phrase "6-year-old beauty queen" has all the naturalness of "3-year-old Pro-Bowl defensive tackle".

18th August 2006, 02:16 PM	#102
Jorghnassen Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The realm of ideas Posts: 3,882	So it's a girl with 2 guy names, just spelled funny.
	__________________ "Help control the local pet population: teach your dog abstinence." -Stephen Colbert "My dad believed laughter is the best medicine. Which is why several of us died of tuberculosis."- Unknown source, heard from Grey Delisle on Rob Paulsen's podcast

18th August 2006, 02:33 PM	#103
wolfgirl Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Kearney, MO Posts: 1,363	Originally Posted by timhau A strange one. It comes from his father's first and middle name, which are John Bennett. The kid's middle name was from her mother. Creepy, but not any more creepy than beauty pageants for pre-schoolers. The phrase "6-year-old beauty queen" has all the naturalness of "3-year-old Pro-Bowl defensive tackle". I can't help thinking that, if this IS the guy (and I'm far from convinced that it is), her parents' havit of dressing a little 6-year-old girl up in pretty outfits and putting makeup on her to make her look much older and sexier can't have helped. Him saying how beautiful she was, like a beauty queen, and that they were lovers, is a fantasy that seems not so far-fetched (to a psychotic mind) when she looked like a miniature prostitute. (Nothing against the poor little girl. It wasn't her fault. But her mother used to put mascara on her to send her to kindergarten and would get her out of school to go get her hair highlighted, for christ's sake!)
	__________________ My moral compass was within myself, not in the pages of a sacred book. - Ayaan Hirsi Ali

18th August 2006, 02:58 PM	#104
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,278	Originally Posted by wolfgirl I can't help thinking that, if this IS the guy (and I'm far from convinced that it is), her parents' havit of dressing a little 6-year-old girl up in pretty outfits and putting makeup on her to make her look much older and sexier can't have helped. Him saying how beautiful she was, like a beauty queen, and that they were lovers, is a fantasy that seems not so far-fetched (to a psychotic mind) when she looked like a miniature prostitute. (Nothing against the poor little girl. It wasn't her fault. But her mother used to put mascara on her to send her to kindergarten and would get her out of school to go get her hair highlighted, for christ's sake!) I have argued since day one that their behavior constituted child abuse.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

18th August 2006, 03:21 PM	#105
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by timhau The kid's middle name was from her mother. Creepy, but not any more creepy than beauty pageants for pre-schoolers. The phrase "6-year-old beauty queen" has all the naturalness of "3-year-old Pro-Bowl defensive tackle". By sheer coincidence, Mrs. BPSCG and I saw Little Miss Sunshine at the movies last weekend, a comedy about an 8-year old girl who enters a beauty pageant. !!!SPOILER ALERT!!! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . She's in 'way over her head - she's cute enough, as an eight-year old, but even dressed up for the pageant, she's something of an ugly duckling. I felt a little unclean watching these other girls primping and giving sexy smiles to the audience. When our heroine comes on stage to do her routine, you figure she's going to be badly embarrased. She does a strip-tease. Naturally, everyone (in the movie) is shocked and terribly scandalized. But I wondered, why is it just wonderful to have eight-year-old girls dress up in rhinestone-studded bikinis and give sexy come-hither smiles to people old enough to be her parents, while going one step farther and doing a strip-tease is way out of bounds? We walked out of there talking about JonBenet Ramsey, and we weren't the only ones. I took a three-hour bath in Clorox when we got home. Actually a pretty decent movie.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

18th August 2006, 03:29 PM	#106
Segnosaur Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 6,072	Originally Posted by timhau It's also possible that the Boulder DA is being very tight-lipped now, because the last time around they weren't, and it all turned into one big circus. Right. Plus, there's another reason... The DA may want to avoid talking about details because, if the person is lying, they may need to keep stuff hidden for the NEXT person who confesses. If they reveal what details Karr got right and got wrong, it makes it easier if someone else ever wants to try a false confession.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I cheered when then the WTC came down. - UndercoverElephant (a.k.a. JustGeoff) I cheer Bin Laden... - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Bin Laden delivered justice - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Men shop for lingerie the way kids shop for breakfast cereal... they will buy something they know nothing about, just to get the prize inside. - Jeff Foxworthy

18th August 2006, 03:43 PM	#107
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,028	Originally Posted by BPSCG By sheer coincidence, Mrs. BPSCG and I saw Little Miss Sunshine at the movies last weekend, a comedy about an 8-year old girl who enters a beauty pageant. !!!SPOILER ALERT!!! ... I saw this too, and yes a really fine and funny movie it is. You left out the one detail of the beauty pagent which really gave me the creeps: The motorcycle dude who was sitting in the audience, scoping out the little girls. That was a little too JonBenet-close for comfort.
	__________________ Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him and wail him with monster truck force. - Cake, The Distance Was there a second singer on the grassy Knowles? - Stephen Colbert

18th August 2006, 03:45 PM	#108
JamesDillon Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Berkeley, CA Posts: 2,631	Originally Posted by BPSCG By sheer coincidence, Mrs. BPSCG and I saw Little Miss Sunshine at the movies last weekend, a comedy about an 8-year old girl who enters a beauty pageant. !!!SPOILER ALERT!!! I was just thinking of posting about that movie. The ending scene was one of the creepiest I've seen in a film, because of how all the other girls looked. And, as an aside, I thought it was an excellent movie. Highly recommended.
	__________________ "To read the bible without horror, we must undo every thing that is tender, sympathising, and benevolent in the heart of man." --Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

19th August 2006, 07:36 AM	#109
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by hgc I saw this too, and yes a really fine and funny movie it is. You left out the one detail of the beauty pagent which really gave me the creeps: The motorcycle dude who was sitting in the audience, scoping out the little girls. That was a little too JonBenet-close for comfort. Yeah, though this guy Karr sure doesn't look like a biker. On another child-molestor thread some time back, I checked our local online sex-offender registry. Lots of photos. Some of them looked like guys who would happily break a beer bottle across your face. Some of them looked like the guy in the next cubicle. You don't come away thinking, "Okay, now I know what a pervert looks like."
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

20th August 2006, 06:36 PM	#110
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,278	So, is he back home yet? I heard he was drinking beer on the plane.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

28th August 2006, 01:42 PM	#111
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,278	Breaking news: Charges dropped against JonBenet suspect. http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/28/ra...est/index.html No surprise, I suppose.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him. Last edited by The Central Scrutinizer; 28th August 2006 at 01:53 PM.

28th August 2006, 02:00 PM	#112
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer Breaking news: Charges dropped against JonBenet suspect. http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/28/ra...est/index.html No surprise, I suppose. Not really. Wouldn't there be charges of some kind regarding his apparently false confession? I mean, the money and hours wasted.... Surely one doesn't just get away with that, does one? And here's hoping he never, ever teaches again.
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642

28th August 2006, 02:08 PM	#113
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,278	Originally Posted by slingblade Not really. Wouldn't there be charges of some kind regarding his apparently false confession? I mean, the money and hours wasted.... Surely one doesn't just get away with that, does one? And here's hoping he never, ever teaches again. Interfering with an investigation perhaps? I don't know.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

28th August 2006, 02:09 PM	#114
The Mutha thoroughly confused, but valiantly trying... Join Date: May 2006 Location: Houston Posts: 1,504	He got a free ride back to the States, courtesy of you and me. Hopefully he'll get some kind of a bill for it.

28th August 2006, 02:21 PM	#115
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,146	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer Breaking news: Charges dropped against JonBenet suspect. http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/28/ra...est/index.html No surprise, I suppose. [gomer_pyle] Surprise, surprise, surprise! [/gomer]