Rationality wins!

FramerDave · 17th August 2006, 09:33 AM

When I look at the vast wasteland of garbage put out there by the CT crowd, and the utterly ridiculous long discussions, I often despair. It seems sometimes that common sense, logic and intelligence are hopelessy lost in our world today. But sometimes there are small victories, and winning a few little battles here and there are enough to keep me going.

A few nights ago my brother in law and his wife were over for dinner. He's a firefighter, she's an elementary school teacher, both intelligent and reasonable people. I respect them both. So I was a bit alarmed when she told me she had watched Loose Change and though it was interesting. Knowing that I had an opportunity, I told her to let me send her some links and information before she made up her mind.

Now I'm not Gravy, but I have followed a lot of the discussions enough to know at least the basics of the whole conspiracy theory, and the real facts behind them. Here's the email I sent her:

I'll be honest. I've never watched the full Loose Change video. [I've since watched it] I have not had the patience to do so, and honestly what I have seen of it has made my brain want to explode. But I have read about it a lot and I'm familiar with most of the claims that it makes. Just a few off the top of my head:

The WTC buildings were brought down in a controlled demolition. It takes months of preparation to set the explosives used in bringing down a building. Why did none of the thousands of workers there ever see anyone suspicious or ever notice anyone setting charges, or "squibs" as LC refers to them? Some conspiracy theorists say that they were planted in the buildings 30 or so years ago as they were being built. Again, don't you think that one of the thousands of construction workers would have noticed it, and said something now?

Loose Change also relies on a quote from the owner of WTC 7 telling the firefighters to "pull it." This is supposed to be the smoking gun, proof that the owner told them to destroy the building. Supposedly "pull it" is a phrase meaning "take it down." However, experts in the controlled demolition industry have said that they have never used or heard of that phrase in that context. The truth is, he was telling the firefighters to pull their men out of the building once it was obvious that there was no way to save the building. Doesn't "pull it" sound an awful lot like "pull out?"

Squibs. Squibs are tiny explosives, about like firecrackers, used in special effects. In the world of CT though they are explosives. Loose Change points out these supposed squibs going off, triggering the collapse of the buildings. One big flaw. They appear AFTER the buildings start to collapse. If the explosives collapsed the building, would they not need to go off before? Simple cause and effect. What is shown in the video is air being forced explosively out of the building as the floors above pancaked, shattering windows and throwing out debris.

It was a missile that hit the Pentagon, not Flight 77. Well, I'm sure the numerous witnesses who saw the plane hit would disagree. And have you seen the video from the camera at the Pentagon showing the impact? They also claim that there is no plane wreckage. Do a Google image search and you'll turn up dozens of pictures of wreckage. Oh, but then they say that there are no big pieces that would indicate an aircraft. A plane is made of fairly thin aluminum. It was traveling at about 530 mph when it hit a quite solid masonry structure. What do you expect? Again, a quick search will show that even in a routine crash, the structure of a plane is usually pretty well obliterated.

If a missile hit the Pentagon rather than Flight 77, where are all the passengers?

Hopefully just these few examples will demonstrate that Loose Change really doesn't have a leg to stand on. And honestly, hardcore conspiracy believers are a frightening bunch. They claim to be looking for the truth, yet outright refuse to consider any viewpoint or evidence that does not bolster their claims. Here, take a look at the James Randi Educational Foundation forum: http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=64 and the Loose Change forum: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...ex.php?act=idx There are people from the JREF forum on Loose Change and Loose Change people on JREF. Note how their styles differ. When a CT'er makes a claim on JREF he is asked to provide proof or references or to back up his claim. He usually responds with misdirection, ad hominen attacks or just ignoring the question. When a skeptic asks reasonable questions on Loose Change, they are attacked, ridiculed and eventually banned. Does this sound like the behavior of people looking for a free exchange of ideas to arrive at the truth?

If you're interested in a good counterpoint to Loose Change, have a look at the Loose Change viewer's guide here: http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html It's quite a read and goes into far more detail than I could.

[My boyfriend] and I were talking about this a few nights a go, and he asked me why it mattered. These people are nutjobs and nobody should bother. So why bother? Because these people are spitting on the memories of the people who died that day and since trying to fight the bastards that did this. They are smearing the honor and sacrifice made by hundreds of firefighters, police and others on that day. And sadly, these conspiracy theorists are getting more attention than they deserve. It takes less time and thought to watch a movie uncritically than to look deeper for the truth.

So take a little time to look at the facts and make up your mind. I'm sure you'll find that reality, reason and truth will outweigh the innuendo and speculation that Loose Change is built on.

Dave

And it seems to have worked. Here's her response:

I am glad you sent me this. A coworker sent us the video and my sister and I were watching it and just overwhelmed by everything. You know you watch this stuff and you start to believe it, but once you really analyze it then you realize how over the top it is. For me the main thing was what you stated, out of all the people that would have had to be involved in this ordeal I think one would slip and talk about it. On another note thanks again for the lasagna and pie last night, they were delicious.

So, score one for rationality. I'm going to suggest that she send my response and links on to her coworker who originally sent her the video. Thank you Gravy and thank you JREF.

Arkan_Wolfshade · 17th August 2006, 09:34 AM

Yay for rational thinking and good inner parties!

Bronze Dog · 17th August 2006, 09:46 AM

I'd propose a kegger as a way to celebrate, but I'm a teetotaler.

jhunter1163 · 17th August 2006, 09:48 AM

This is exactly why I read these forums, so that in the event something like this comes up in conversation I can rebut these ridiculous claims with FACTS.

Bravo Dave and thanks to Gravy, Marky, and all who fight the nonsense.

chipmunk stew · 17th August 2006, 10:04 AM

Sweet!

Nicely done, Dave.

Patricio Elicer · 17th August 2006, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by FramerDave

And it seems to have worked. Here's her response:

I am glad you sent me this. A coworker sent us the video and my sister and I were watching it and just overwhelmed by everything. You know you watch this stuff and you start to believe it, but once you really analyze it then you realize how over the top it is. For me the main thing was what you stated, out of all the people that would have had to be involved in this ordeal I think one would slip and talk about it. On another note thanks again for the lasagna and pie last night, they were delicious.

So, score one for rationality. I'm going to suggest that she send my response and links on to her coworker who originally sent her the video. Thank you Gravy and thank you JREF.

Well, congrats for that one!.

It's hard, very hard to argue with conspiracy theorists. Those people take the irrationality to the extreme, they will always find a way out to support their theory.

Me: "There are pictures of flight 77 wreckage near the Pentagon".

CTst: "No, that wreckage is not from flight 77, it was put in there on purpose just for the pictures".

LashL · 17th August 2006, 01:30 PM

Congratulations, FramerDave.

It is always a pleasure to be able to make someone see the idiocy of the loose change video. I understand on some level why some people allow themselves to just view such a piece of crap uncritically, but it still startles me any time I see an otherwise rational person actually give it any credence whatsoever.

Nicely done.

Overman · 17th August 2006, 01:33 PM

Make lasanga and pie for us now.

Gravy · 17th August 2006, 10:43 PM

A wave for Dave!

17th August 2006, 09:33 AM	#1
FramerDave Muse Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 726	Rationality wins! When I look at the vast wasteland of garbage put out there by the CT crowd, and the utterly ridiculous long discussions, I often despair. It seems sometimes that common sense, logic and intelligence are hopelessy lost in our world today. But sometimes there are small victories, and winning a few little battles here and there are enough to keep me going. A few nights ago my brother in law and his wife were over for dinner. He's a firefighter, she's an elementary school teacher, both intelligent and reasonable people. I respect them both. So I was a bit alarmed when she told me she had watched Loose Change and though it was interesting. Knowing that I had an opportunity, I told her to let me send her some links and information before she made up her mind. Now I'm not Gravy, but I have followed a lot of the discussions enough to know at least the basics of the whole conspiracy theory, and the real facts behind them. Here's the email I sent her: I'll be honest. I've never watched the full Loose Change video. [I've since watched it] I have not had the patience to do so, and honestly what I have seen of it has made my brain want to explode. But I have read about it a lot and I'm familiar with most of the claims that it makes. Just a few off the top of my head: The WTC buildings were brought down in a controlled demolition. It takes months of preparation to set the explosives used in bringing down a building. Why did none of the thousands of workers there ever see anyone suspicious or ever notice anyone setting charges, or "squibs" as LC refers to them? Some conspiracy theorists say that they were planted in the buildings 30 or so years ago as they were being built. Again, don't you think that one of the thousands of construction workers would have noticed it, and said something now? Loose Change also relies on a quote from the owner of WTC 7 telling the firefighters to "pull it." This is supposed to be the smoking gun, proof that the owner told them to destroy the building. Supposedly "pull it" is a phrase meaning "take it down." However, experts in the controlled demolition industry have said that they have never used or heard of that phrase in that context. The truth is, he was telling the firefighters to pull their men out of the building once it was obvious that there was no way to save the building. Doesn't "pull it" sound an awful lot like "pull out?" Squibs. Squibs are tiny explosives, about like firecrackers, used in special effects. In the world of CT though they are explosives. Loose Change points out these supposed squibs going off, triggering the collapse of the buildings. One big flaw. They appear AFTER the buildings start to collapse. If the explosives collapsed the building, would they not need to go off before? Simple cause and effect. What is shown in the video is air being forced explosively out of the building as the floors above pancaked, shattering windows and throwing out debris. It was a missile that hit the Pentagon, not Flight 77. Well, I'm sure the numerous witnesses who saw the plane hit would disagree. And have you seen the video from the camera at the Pentagon showing the impact? They also claim that there is no plane wreckage. Do a Google image search and you'll turn up dozens of pictures of wreckage. Oh, but then they say that there are no big pieces that would indicate an aircraft. A plane is made of fairly thin aluminum. It was traveling at about 530 mph when it hit a quite solid masonry structure. What do you expect? Again, a quick search will show that even in a routine crash, the structure of a plane is usually pretty well obliterated. If a missile hit the Pentagon rather than Flight 77, where are all the passengers? Hopefully just these few examples will demonstrate that Loose Change really doesn't have a leg to stand on. And honestly, hardcore conspiracy believers are a frightening bunch. They claim to be looking for the truth, yet outright refuse to consider any viewpoint or evidence that does not bolster their claims. Here, take a look at the James Randi Educational Foundation forum: http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=64 and the Loose Change forum: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...ex.php?act=idx There are people from the JREF forum on Loose Change and Loose Change people on JREF. Note how their styles differ. When a CT'er makes a claim on JREF he is asked to provide proof or references or to back up his claim. He usually responds with misdirection, ad hominen attacks or just ignoring the question. When a skeptic asks reasonable questions on Loose Change, they are attacked, ridiculed and eventually banned. Does this sound like the behavior of people looking for a free exchange of ideas to arrive at the truth? If you're interested in a good counterpoint to Loose Change, have a look at the Loose Change viewer's guide here: http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html It's quite a read and goes into far more detail than I could. [My boyfriend] and I were talking about this a few nights a go, and he asked me why it mattered. These people are nutjobs and nobody should bother. So why bother? Because these people are spitting on the memories of the people who died that day and since trying to fight the bastards that did this. They are smearing the honor and sacrifice made by hundreds of firefighters, police and others on that day. And sadly, these conspiracy theorists are getting more attention than they deserve. It takes less time and thought to watch a movie uncritically than to look deeper for the truth. So take a little time to look at the facts and make up your mind. I'm sure you'll find that reality, reason and truth will outweigh the innuendo and speculation that Loose Change is built on. Dave And it seems to have worked. Here's her response: I am glad you sent me this. A coworker sent us the video and my sister and I were watching it and just overwhelmed by everything. You know you watch this stuff and you start to believe it, but once you really analyze it then you realize how over the top it is. For me the main thing was what you stated, out of all the people that would have had to be involved in this ordeal I think one would slip and talk about it. On another note thanks again for the lasagna and pie last night, they were delicious. So, score one for rationality. I'm going to suggest that she send my response and links on to her coworker who originally sent her the video. Thank you Gravy and thank you JREF.
FramerDave Muse Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 726

17th August 2006, 09:34 AM	#2
Arkan_Wolfshade Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Making Mytheon come to life Posts: 7,158	Yay for rational thinking and good inner parties!
	__________________ Amy: You should try homeopathic medicine, Bender. Try some zinc. Bender: I am forty percent zinc. Amy: Then take some echinacea, or St. John's Wort. Professor: Or a big fat placebo. It's all the same crap.

17th August 2006, 09:46 AM	#3
Bronze Dog Copper Alloy Canid Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Homebrew D&D Campaign Setting Posts: 5,007	I'd propose a kegger as a way to celebrate, but I'm a teetotaler.
	__________________ Stop Sylvia Browne Warning: Beware of contaminated water supplies! Suspected source of contamination: Sarah-I A non-Rockstar Rambler and dissector of Doggerel

17th August 2006, 10:04 AM	#5
chipmunk stew The Spikey Mace of Love and Mercy Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: SE PA Posts: 7,465	Sweet! Nicely done, Dave.
	__________________

17th August 2006, 10:09 AM	#6
Patricio Elicer Obsessed with Reality Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 4,350	Originally Posted by FramerDave And it seems to have worked. Here's her response: I am glad you sent me this. A coworker sent us the video and my sister and I were watching it and just overwhelmed by everything. You know you watch this stuff and you start to believe it, but once you really analyze it then you realize how over the top it is. For me the main thing was what you stated, out of all the people that would have had to be involved in this ordeal I think one would slip and talk about it. On another note thanks again for the lasagna and pie last night, they were delicious. So, score one for rationality. I'm going to suggest that she send my response and links on to her coworker who originally sent her the video. Thank you Gravy and thank you JREF. Well, congrats for that one!. It's hard, very hard to argue with conspiracy theorists. Those people take the irrationality to the extreme, they will always find a way out to support their theory. Me: "There are pictures of flight 77 wreckage near the Pentagon". CTst: "No, that wreckage is not from flight 77, it was put in there on purpose just for the pictures".
	__________________ "Well, I've never discussed it before on the forum, but, Patricio, you're the real reason I didn't show up at TAM I. Once I found out you were going, I cancelled all my plans, knowing that you would likely hunt me down and ask me questions about English language usage. I finally decided that I wouldn't be able to handle the pressure of your questions ..." - Mr. Skinny on 5th April 2007.

17th August 2006, 09:48 AM	#4
jhunter1163 Beer-Swilling Semiliterate Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Room 118, Bohemian Grove Marriott Posts: 15,568	This is exactly why I read these forums, so that in the event something like this comes up in conversation I can rebut these ridiculous claims with FACTS. Bravo Dave and thanks to Gravy, Marky, and all who fight the nonsense.

17th August 2006, 01:30 PM	#7
LashL Goddess of Legaltainment™ Administrator Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 26,194	Congratulations, FramerDave. It is always a pleasure to be able to make someone see the idiocy of the loose change video. I understand on some level why some people allow themselves to just view such a piece of crap uncritically, but it still startles me any time I see an otherwise rational person actually give it any credence whatsoever. Nicely done.

17th August 2006, 01:33 PM	#8
Overman Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 2,630	Make lasanga and pie for us now.
	__________________ Our new album 'The Future is Gonna be Great' on iTunes!!! Our old 'The Evolution EP' still on iTunes

17th August 2006, 10:43 PM	#9
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,136	A wave for Dave!
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links