Mutiny on Flight 613

Cylinder · 20th August 2006, 02:22 AM

Passengers refuse to fly until Asians are removed

Quote:

British holidaymakers staged an unprecedented mutiny - refusing to allow their flight to take off until two men they feared were terrorists were forcibly removed.

The extraordinary scenes happened after some of the 150 passengers on a Malaga-Manchester flight overheard two men of Asian appearance apparently talking Arabic.

Passengers told cabin crew they feared for their safety and demanded police action. Some stormed off the Monarch Airlines Airbus A320 minutes before it was due to leave the Costa del Sol at 3am. Others waiting for Flight ZB 613 in the departure lounge refused to board it.

The incident fuels the row over airport security following the arrest of more than 20 people allegedly planning the suicide-bombing of transatlantic jets from the UK to America. It comes amid growing demands for passenger-profiling and selective security checks.

It also raised fears that more travellers will take the law into their own hands - effectively conducting their own 'passenger profiles'.

I suspect this was an irrational reaction to a very rational fear. I guess we should take this time to come to terms with the root causes of the radicalization of western air travelers.

timhau · 20th August 2006, 03:42 AM

Note to terrorists: prior to boarding, get a haircut, trim your beard, dress stylishly.

Darat · 20th August 2006, 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by Cylinder

Passengers refuse to fly until Asians are removed

I suspect this was an irrational reaction to a very rational fear.

It was an irrational reaction to a very irrational fear.

Or perhaps better put it was an irrational reaction to a irrational understanding of the level of risk. I bet not one of these people once they got to their home airport checked the taxi they were getting into for possible common mechanical faults - which are much, much more likely to result in their death then any risk from these two people.

Originally Posted by Cylinder

I guess we should take this time to come to terms with the root causes of the radicalization of western air travelers.

Yep - which is the fact that human beings find it very difficult to understand risk and our fear reaction is normally an irrational response. It is this irrationality that makes terrorism possible.

Pyrrho · 20th August 2006, 05:15 AM

Obviously, the passengers had no confidence in the ability of the authorities to conduct effective security screening.

Next phase: mob violence. People will take only so much ********. Then they start doing things such as this. There was a case a couple of years ago in which a disruptive air passenger was forcibly subdued--and killed--by other passengers. Perhaps causing this kind of chaos is part of the terrorist strategy. It certainly serves their objectives.

Comparatively, this incident is less serious than a fan riot at a soccer match.

webfusion · 20th August 2006, 06:06 AM

Uh, did any of these disgruntled passengers actually talk directly to the "suspects" ?
Probably not.

Mephisto · 20th August 2006, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

Uh, did any of these disgruntled passengers actually talk directly to the "suspects" ?
Probably not.

No need to, they "felt it in their gut."

note from Satan: The best way to fight irrational mob violence against innocent people is with irrational mob violence against innocent people.

Ralph · 20th August 2006, 06:53 AM

[quote=Mephisto;1859902]No need to, they "felt it in their gut."

note from Satan: The best way to fight irrational mob violence against innocent

They told the crew they were afraid....and some of them walked off the plane. What violence?

schplurg · 20th August 2006, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

Uh, did any of these disgruntled passengers actually talk directly to the "suspects" ?
Probably not.

Irrational indeed.

However, if I truly believed a group of men on a plane to be terrorists, I sure as hell wouldn't go up and ask them if it were true. Well, I might after a few drinks. I think talking to the crew was the correct course of action for anyone who was concerned.

Terrorism at work.

demon · 20th August 2006, 07:29 PM

One hopes the two guys involved will sue the arse right out of the airline. God, you can only imagine the laws a good lawyer might argue they've broke?

Racial discrimination, harassment, breaking contracts, emotional distress, slander etc etc.

HeavyAaron · 20th August 2006, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by demon

One hopes the two guys involved will sue the arse right out of the airline. God, you can only imagine the laws a good lawyer might argue they've broke?

Racial discrimination, harassment, breaking contracts, emotional distress, slander etc etc.

Which leads to a good question. What should the airline have done? (In fact, what did they do?)

If you're going to hold them culpable, to what do you believe they are culpable of?

Other than the obvious of letting disgruntled passengers off of the plane, what course of action do you believe the airline should take? This isn't a rhetorical question. I'm honestly unsure what I would have done as the company.

For that matter, what should the pilot have done? The pilot has the authority to make a decision here that even the airline cannot overrule.

Aaron

Mephisto · 20th August 2006, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ralph

They told the crew they were afraid....and some of them walked off the plane. What violence?

Oh, well they're certainly within their rights not to fly on that particular plane, nevermind.

P.S. What's the problem then?

demon · 20th August 2006, 08:00 PM

Absolutely sickening. I wasn't afraid to fly before but now I am in case I have to share oxygen with fools like those.
Well, this was reported with glee in the Mail on Sunday, with some charming testimony from a family who look like the foundation stone upon which Thatcherite-Blairite-Murdochite Britain has been built.
Daily Mail, Daily Express newspapers , "X Factor", "Holidays from Hell", and "Tonight With Trevor McDonald" programmes all rolled into one horrible suburban semi-detached family.
And the couple proudly pose to be photographed in a national newspaper after having behaved like pampered children.

Apologies for the rant, I know it`s not their fault. Their as much victims in a way as the two passengers who got lifted.

brooklyn44 · 20th August 2006, 08:04 PM

The police escorted the two Asian passemgers "suspected" of speaking Arabic off the plane. The plane was emptied, searched and the remaining passemgers reboarded and flew away.
The two who were removed were put up in a hotel and were rebooked the next day without incident.
If there were any justice, the complainants should have been denied flight on that airline and the two British citizens who were Asian should have been allowed to continue on their way,

demon · 20th August 2006, 08:23 PM

brooklyn44:
"If there were any justice, the complainants should have been denied flight on that airline and the two British citizens who were Asian should have been allowed to continue on their way"

Damn straight.

shemp · 20th August 2006, 08:29 PM

This wouldn't have happened if everyone in the world was required to speak English only!

demon · 20th August 2006, 08:44 PM

What a bunch of complete tossers.
As Brooklyn says, it would have been funny if the plane had taken off without them and left the two Asian passengers on board speaking their sinister "Arabic"!.
To be honest I think it's a bit of an exageration to claim the UK population has joined in this hysteria, as I`ve heard a few people say when I was out and about today.
Rather a small group of morons on this flight did, but generally a lot of people are very skeptical about this so called "terror plot/plots". It's just the British press who have creamed their pants about it all, particularly the so called "quality" rags.

Mephisto · 20th August 2006, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by brooklyn44

If there were any justice, the complainants should have been denied flight on that airline and the two British citizens who were Asian should have been allowed to continue on their way,

Oh, that's the problem . . . well I think I can easily align myself with your idea of justice. Personally, I would feel uncomfortable flying with Inuit tribesmen who speak Swahili, but that's just me.

demon · 20th August 2006, 09:05 PM

Mephisto:
"Oh, that's the problem . . . well I think I can easily align myself with your idea of justice. Personally, I would feel uncomfortable flying with Inuit tribesmen who speak Swahili, but that's just me."

Hey, how about gay service men form the early 70`s?
Sorry, couldn`t resist (I`ll run for cover now lol)
I`m definitely going to bed!!!

Azure · 20th August 2006, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by demon

One hopes the two guys involved will sue the arse right out of the airline. God, you can only imagine the laws a good lawyer might argue they've broke?

Racial discrimination, harassment, breaking contracts, emotional distress, slander etc etc.

Right....sue the airline, when in fact the airline wasn't at fault.

demon · 20th August 2006, 10:38 PM

Azure:
"Right....sue the airline, when in fact the airline wasn't at fault."

No, not if the airline was the Luftwaffe!
Do you sell 1940-1945 hmm, let`s call it "Military" Memorabilia on ebay by any chance (can`t say the "N" word with the "Z" in it you understand)
No offence meant of course...genuine question...got anything from "Boys from Brazil"?

TragicMonkey · 21st August 2006, 03:09 AM

Originally Posted by Azure

Right....sue the airline, when in fact the airline wasn't at fault.

Well, the airline did deny two passengers their flight, which they had already paid for. The men weren't suspicious--they already passed the airline and airport security, and were allowed to board. The other passengers, who are NOT granted the power to determine who flies and who doesn't, for some reason were given their way by the airline. What's with that? Next time I fly, can I get up a movement among the passengers to vote off the crying babies, and have the airline bow to our wishes? I thought disrupting a flight was grounds for being denied service, not an acceptable method to deny service to other passengers. The airline's fault is that it crumbled to pressure from a gang of disruptive passengers who themselves should have removed from the flight.

Darat · 21st August 2006, 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by Azure

Right....sue the airline, when in fact the airline wasn't at fault.

The airline prevented two legitimate passengers from flying. The proper course of action would have been for the airline to remove the passengers causing the disruption and not allow them to fly (and obviously they would get no compensation).

I would like to think if I was on the flight I would have kicked up a fuss about the other passengers and once back in the UK I'd have made myself available to all media to put forward a different side i.e. that the flight was full of racist, bigoted fools!

I do wonder how many of the passengers then got a taxi at the airport that was driven by an "Asian/Arabic/not one of us" looking driver?

gumboot · 21st August 2006, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

The airline prevented two legitimate passengers from flying. The proper course of action would have been for the airline to remove the passengers causing the disruption and not allow them to fly (and obviously they would get no compensation).

I read it that the police removed the two suspect passengers. Surely in this case the passengers should be sueing the police, right?

-Andrew

Darat · 21st August 2006, 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by gumboot

I read it that the police removed the two suspect passengers. Surely in this case the passengers should be sueing the police, right?

-Andrew

Don't know enough about Spanish law but if this had happened in the UK then I'd say they'd also have a case against the police.

ETA:

According to the Daily Mail report:

A spokesman for the Civil Guard in Malaga said: "These men had aroused suspicion because of their appearance and the fact that they were speaking in a foreign language thought to be an Arabic language, and the pilot was refusing to take off until they were escorted off the plane."

So nope it's back to the airline - sounds as if the police were doing what they could do to keep the peace.

Mephisto · 21st August 2006, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

According to the Daily Mail report:

A spokesman for the Civil Guard in Malaga said: "These men had aroused suspicion because of their appearance and the fact that they were speaking in a foreign language thought to be an Arabic language, and the pilot was refusing to take off until they were escorted off the plane."

So nope it's back to the airline - sounds as if the police were doing what they could do to keep the peace.

I agree, the knee-jerk attitude is to blame the police when it was actually the passengers who initiated the wrongful action by the pilot who represents the airline.

What is so damn ominous about people in Europe speaking a foreign language? You Europeans are sounding about as ethno-centric as the Americans these days.

alock · 21st August 2006, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I would like to think if I was on the flight I would have kicked up a fuss about the other passengers and once back in the UK I'd have made myself available to all media to put forward a different side i.e. that the flight was full of racist, bigoted fools!

On the other hand, I would have put myself forward to the media to provide an accurate account of what I saw. You appear to have already made up your mind as to what you think of these people (purely from a Daily Mail report) so you are there ideal witness.

Ralph · 21st August 2006, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by Mephisto

Oh, well they're certainly within their rights not to fly on that particular plane, nevermind.

P.S. What's the problem then?

Your post mentions something about "irrational mob violence". I don't see how talking to the crew & walking off the plane constitutes "irrational mob violence" .All the accounts I read indicate that it was all done in a very orderly fashion.

I still remember my first plane flight back the 60's. I was partly excited and partly apprehensive.......but the fear only involved the plane crashing. At that point in time it hadn't become fashionable yet for muslims to blow up planes so they could get laid in paradise. If I'd expressed concern back then about someone blowing the plane up I can understand how I could have been seen as being paranoid but given recent events---I don't see how the passengers were all that unreasonable.

None of us were there. We don't know what was going on but supposedly one the passengers heard something she didn't like. It hasn't been explained yet what that meant but she could very well have heard something that indicated a possible threat.

You were a trained sniper. You never had a hunch or gut feeling about a dangerous situation and erred on the side of caution because of it?

It's amazing how people seems to think how ridiculous it is to assume someone that looks a little sinister ( & wearing long leather coats on a hot day does just not look right) couldn't possibly be a terrorist because they are too smart for that. Any well planned terrorist attack on an airplane will more likely involve blue-eyed blonde females....not some guy with a beard holding a scimitar in his teeth so being suspicious of someone that looks suspicious is just being paranoid.

Do you think that it's possible that it might just be some lone nut out to kill as many people as he can because that's what allah wishes for him. Somebody that believes in an invisible sky-being who will reward him with a boatload of pussy if he kills a bunch of non-believers might just be a little crazy to begin with. Sometimes lunatics & psychotics really do look & act like lunatics & psychotics and I can't find all that much fault with the passengers for there actions.

Darat · 21st August 2006, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by alock

On the other hand, I would have put myself forward to the media to provide an accurate account of what I saw. You appear to have already made up your mind as to what you think of these people (purely from a Daily Mail report) so you are there ideal witness.

Er not quite it comes from reading many accounts of the incident, including interviews with some of the passengers, quotes from the pilot, quotes from the airline, quotes from the Spanish civil police and so on. Obviously my conclusions about the racism and bigotry shown by some of the above may be wrong however so far the evidence shows that some of the passengers acted in racist and bigoted manner and the airline allowed those racist bigots to determine who could fly with "them".

Obviously if you have evidence to the contrary I am happy to change my conclusion.

Darat · 21st August 2006, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by Ralph

...snip...

None of us were there. We don't know what was going on but supposedly one the passengers heard something she didn't like. It hasn't been explained yet what that meant but she could very well have heard something that indicated a possible threat.

...snip..

None of the reports I've read mention this - all of them mention that "someone" thought they (the two British people) were talking in something they thought was Arabic.

Originally Posted by Ralph

...snip...

It's amazing how people seems to think how ridiculous it is to assume someone that looks a little sinister ( & wearing long leather coats on a hot day does just not look right)

...snip...

Where did you read about "long leather coats"?

Originally Posted by Ralph

....snip...

not some guy with a beard holding a scimitar in his teeth so being suspicious of someone that looks suspicious is just being paranoid.

...snip..

Not read about anyone having a scimitar on them - that really would have been a breakdown in airport security so I would have expected at least someone to have mentioned this detail... ?

Originally Posted by Ralph

Do you think that it's possible that it might just be some lone nut out to kill as many people as he can because that's what allah wishes for him. Somebody that believes in an invisible sky-being who will reward him with a boatload of pussy if he kills a bunch of non-believers might just be a little crazy to begin with. Sometimes lunatics & psychotics really do look & act like lunatics & psychotics and I can't find all that much fault with the passengers for there actions.

Who was looking like a lunatic or psychotic - again none of the reports mention this aspect.

So far the grounds of suspicion seems to have been "they were speaking in we think not-English and weren't wearing a "kiss me quick" hat and carrying a straw donkey as all non-terrorists do"... (I may have embellished that paraphrasing ever so slightly...)

Cylinder · 23rd August 2006, 02:18 AM

Passenger defends actions

Quote:

A man on board a flight to Manchester from Malaga has defended passengers' actions after their suspicions led to two men being removed from the plane.
David Wearden, 42, from Chester, said it was reports that the pair had been overheard claiming they had 30 minutes left to live which led to concerns.

Darat · 23rd August 2006, 02:24 AM

First time this has been mentioned as far as I know. None of the other passengers interviewed have claimed they said this - their claims have been that the two British passengers were "acting suspicious", "wearing the wrong clothes" and "speaking in 'Arabic'" so I would add this report to the rest and say it is at best nothing more then the result of Chinese whispers. (Note - Wearden does not state he or his family heard the men make such a comment.)

Cylinder · 23rd August 2006, 02:37 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

First time this has been mentioned as far as I know. None of the other passengers interviewed have claimed they said this - their claims have been that the two British passengers were "acting suspicious", "wearing the wrong clothes" and "speaking in 'Arabic'" so I would add this report to the rest and say it is at best nothing more then the result of Chinese whispers. (Note - Wearden does not state he or his family heard the men make such a comment.)

Certainly we don't have any way to judge that hypothesis. I agree that it is plausible that it could have happened that way. No-one is claiming that the men were shouting these comments across the terminal, so it would be likely in that instance that only a few people would hear them.

Do you agree that if true, these comments sort of changes the whole dynamic, right? What seems just as likely to my mind is a passenger with a mild fear of flying making an unfortunate joke or some jerk making a stupid comment about the foiled bomb plot.

gumboot · 23rd August 2006, 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

First time this has been mentioned as far as I know. None of the other passengers interviewed have claimed they said this - their claims have been that the two British passengers were "acting suspicious", "wearing the wrong clothes" and "speaking in 'Arabic'" so I would add this report to the rest and say it is at best nothing more then the result of Chinese whispers. (Note - Wearden does not state he or his family heard the men make such a comment.)

Do you think that David Wearden's actions are reasonable and rational, given HIS reasons as provided?

-Andrew

Cylinder · 23rd August 2006, 02:47 AM

According to the article, it was not "Chinese whispers," but his own wife who claimed to have spoken to the womon who had allegedly overheard the comment:

Quote:

We were then asked to get off the plane and go back to the airport where they did a full security check."

It was then, he said, that his wife Susanne began talking to another passenger who said she had sat next to the two men.

"She said she had heard them saying it was the last 30 minutes of their lives," said Mr Wearden.

"It may well be that the two simply thought they were being funny, but it perhaps better explains the passenger reaction."

gumboot · 23rd August 2006, 02:48 AM

Originally Posted by Cylinder

Do you agree that if true, these comments sort of changes the whole dynamic, right? What seems just as likely to my mind is a passenger with a mild fear of flying making an unfortunate joke or some jerk making a stupid comment about the foiled bomb plot.

It's also just as possible that, as the word spread, a few bigots and racists amongst the passengers (let's face it, we ALL have our prejudices, and in any random selection of the population you will get people like that) leapt onto the whole "arabic", "evil muslim terrorist" thing?

Given it was a false alarm, and the ensuing madness, if someone did overhear something about "30 mins to live" and they were a decent person, might they now feel rather guilty and not be too keen to go "actually I forced these poor people off the plane because of something I overheard, or something someone said they overheard..."

And if any decent rational people aren't speaking out due to guilt, might that leave only the bigots and racists (who, in my experience, are usually only to keen to announce their opinions to the world).

Seems unfair to label all the passengers as bigots and racists, and when an alternative rational motivation is offered, simply dismiss it out of hand as a "chinese whisper". That reeks of speaking from a firmly established position.

-Andrew

Darat · 23rd August 2006, 02:52 AM

Originally Posted by Cylinder

...snip...

Do you agree that if true, these comments sort of changes the whole dynamic, right? What seems just as likely to my mind is a passenger with a mild fear of flying making an unfortunate joke or some jerk making a stupid comment about the foiled bomb plot.

Yes if true it would cast a different light on the situation. I know there have been several instances when I've been flying when I've had to bite my tongue to stop me coming out with a sarcastic comment like "yeah that's right my belt is made from Semtex" - if I had said something like that I couldn't complain if I attracted a little bit more attention from the authorities...

So if the two passengers had said something like this then of course I would have expected the authorities to act.

However when such remarks have resulted in action in the past (e.g. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/s...re/3457967.stm and http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/4606849.stm) none of the authorities have been reluctant to mention why they acted. In this instance none of the statements issued by the authorities (the airline, the airport operators or the police) have mentioned anything at all about such comments.

Darat · 23rd August 2006, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by gumboot

Do you think that David Wearden's actions are reasonable and rational, given HIS reasons as provided?

-Andrew

Which actions?

Darat · 23rd August 2006, 02:56 AM

Originally Posted by Cylinder

According to the article, it was not "Chinese whispers," but his own wife who claimed to have spoken to the womon who had allegedly overheard the comment:

Substitute "hearsay" then - pretty much the same thing in this instance.

Skeptic · 23rd August 2006, 03:00 AM

I don't think it's so much a matter of bigotry as such, but of crowd hysteria. By the time the story about this "incident" reached the back rows of the plane, it probably transformed itself from "two guys said something I don't understand" (by the way, is there any international flight where this doesn't happen?) to "two terrorists said in Arabic they'll blow the plane up right now".

Cylinder · 23rd August 2006, 03:10 AM

Originally Posted by gumboot

It's also just as possible that, as the word spread, a few bigots and racists amongst the passengers (let's face it, we ALL have our prejudices, and in any random selection of the population you will get people like that) leapt onto the whole "arabic", "evil muslim terrorist" thing?

I suppose. The only real way for me to evaluate is to look at what I would do in a similar situation.

If I overheard anyone - regardless of ethnicity - make that comment I would report it discreetly and immediately. If someone spoke to me about overhearing the same comment who did not report it, I would report it in the same manner.

I think it safe to assume that ethnicity did play an unfair part in this incident. I just have a hard time chalking the whole incident up to racism out-of-hand, since there is a significant back-drop to it that must be considered.

Surely the answer to this problem isn't a large sign at an airport:

AVOID POSSIBLE OFFENSE: PLEASE KEEP YOUR SECURITY CONCERNS PRIVATE.

20th August 2006, 02:22 AM	#1
Cylinder Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,835	Mutiny on Flight 613 Passengers refuse to fly until Asians are removed Quote: British holidaymakers staged an unprecedented mutiny - refusing to allow their flight to take off until two men they feared were terrorists were forcibly removed. The extraordinary scenes happened after some of the 150 passengers on a Malaga-Manchester flight overheard two men of Asian appearance apparently talking Arabic. Passengers told cabin crew they feared for their safety and demanded police action. Some stormed off the Monarch Airlines Airbus A320 minutes before it was due to leave the Costa del Sol at 3am. Others waiting for Flight ZB 613 in the departure lounge refused to board it. The incident fuels the row over airport security following the arrest of more than 20 people allegedly planning the suicide-bombing of transatlantic jets from the UK to America. It comes amid growing demands for passenger-profiling and selective security checks. It also raised fears that more travellers will take the law into their own hands - effectively conducting their own 'passenger profiles'. I suspect this was an irrational reaction to a very rational fear. I guess we should take this time to come to terms with the root causes of the radicalization of western air travelers.
	__________________ If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed ; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves. - Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm

20th August 2006, 04:58 AM	#3
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,741	Originally Posted by Cylinder Passengers refuse to fly until Asians are removed I suspect this was an irrational reaction to a very rational fear. It was an irrational reaction to a very irrational fear. Or perhaps better put it was an irrational reaction to a irrational understanding of the level of risk. I bet not one of these people once they got to their home airport checked the taxi they were getting into for possible common mechanical faults - which are much, much more likely to result in their death then any risk from these two people. Originally Posted by Cylinder I guess we should take this time to come to terms with the root causes of the radicalization of western air travelers. Yep - which is the fact that human beings find it very difficult to understand risk and our fear reaction is normally an irrational response. It is this irrationality that makes terrorism possible.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008 Last edited by Darat; 20th August 2006 at 05:02 AM. Reason: Reformated quote

20th August 2006, 05:15 AM	#4
Pyrrho Man in Black Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,678	Obviously, the passengers had no confidence in the ability of the authorities to conduct effective security screening. Next phase: mob violence. People will take only so much ********. Then they start doing things such as this. There was a case a couple of years ago in which a disruptive air passenger was forcibly subdued--and killed--by other passengers. Perhaps causing this kind of chaos is part of the terrorist strategy. It certainly serves their objectives. Comparatively, this incident is less serious than a fan riot at a soccer match.
Pyrrho Man in Black Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,678	__________________ The Skeptics Society \| The Skeptics Society Forum \| Skepticality Promoting SCIENCE and CRITICAL THINKING

20th August 2006, 06:16 AM	#6
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by webfusion Uh, did any of these disgruntled passengers actually talk directly to the "suspects" ? Probably not. No need to, they "felt it in their gut." note from Satan: The best way to fight irrational mob violence against innocent people is with irrational mob violence against innocent people.
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

20th August 2006, 02:28 PM	#8
schplurg Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 923	Originally Posted by webfusion Uh, did any of these disgruntled passengers actually talk directly to the "suspects" ? Probably not. Irrational indeed. However, if I truly believed a group of men on a plane to be terrorists, I sure as hell wouldn't go up and ask them if it were true. Well, I might after a few drinks. I think talking to the crew was the correct course of action for anyone who was concerned. Terrorism at work.
schplurg Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 923

20th August 2006, 03:42 AM	#2
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: East of Sweeden Posts: 9,647	Note to terrorists: prior to boarding, get a haircut, trim your beard, dress stylishly.

20th August 2006, 06:06 AM	#5
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	Uh, did any of these disgruntled passengers actually talk directly to the "suspects" ? Probably not.

20th August 2006, 06:53 AM	#7
Ralph Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: S.E. Mass....... Posts: 997	[quote=Mephisto;1859902]No need to, they "felt it in their gut." note from Satan: The best way to fight irrational mob violence against innocent They told the crew they were afraid....and some of them walked off the plane. What violence?

20th August 2006, 07:29 PM	#9
demon Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,744	One hopes the two guys involved will sue the arse right out of the airline. God, you can only imagine the laws a good lawyer might argue they've broke? Racial discrimination, harassment, breaking contracts, emotional distress, slander etc etc.
demon Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,744	__________________ "... You don`t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."

20th August 2006, 07:36 PM	#10
HeavyAaron Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sonoran Desert Posts: 1,208	Originally Posted by demon One hopes the two guys involved will sue the arse right out of the airline. God, you can only imagine the laws a good lawyer might argue they've broke? Racial discrimination, harassment, breaking contracts, emotional distress, slander etc etc. Which leads to a good question. What should the airline have done? (In fact, what did they do?) If you're going to hold them culpable, to what do you believe they are culpable of? Other than the obvious of letting disgruntled passengers off of the plane, what course of action do you believe the airline should take? This isn't a rhetorical question. I'm honestly unsure what I would have done as the company. For that matter, what should the pilot have done? The pilot has the authority to make a decision here that even the airline cannot overrule. Aaron

20th August 2006, 07:44 PM	#11
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by Ralph They told the crew they were afraid....and some of them walked off the plane. What violence? Oh, well they're certainly within their rights not to fly on that particular plane, nevermind. P.S. What's the problem then?
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi Last edited by Mephisto; 20th August 2006 at 08:45 PM.

20th August 2006, 08:00 PM	#12
demon Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,744	Absolutely sickening. I wasn't afraid to fly before but now I am in case I have to share oxygen with fools like those. Well, this was reported with glee in the Mail on Sunday, with some charming testimony from a family who look like the foundation stone upon which Thatcherite-Blairite-Murdochite Britain has been built. Daily Mail, Daily Express newspapers , "X Factor", "Holidays from Hell", and "Tonight With Trevor McDonald" programmes all rolled into one horrible suburban semi-detached family. And the couple proudly pose to be photographed in a national newspaper after having behaved like pampered children. Apologies for the rant, I know it`s not their fault. Their as much victims in a way as the two passengers who got lifted.
demon Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,744	__________________ "... You don`t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."

20th August 2006, 08:04 PM	#13
brooklyn44 Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Location: Lawn Guyland, Nu Yawk Posts: 240	The police escorted the two Asian passemgers "suspected" of speaking Arabic off the plane. The plane was emptied, searched and the remaining passemgers reboarded and flew away. The two who were removed were put up in a hotel and were rebooked the next day without incident. If there were any justice, the complainants should have been denied flight on that airline and the two British citizens who were Asian should have been allowed to continue on their way,

20th August 2006, 08:23 PM	#14
demon Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,744	brooklyn44: "If there were any justice, the complainants should have been denied flight on that airline and the two British citizens who were Asian should have been allowed to continue on their way" Damn straight.
demon Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,744	__________________ "... You don`t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."

20th August 2006, 08:29 PM	#15
shemp Timothy, Timothy, where on earth did you go? Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: trapped in a cave-in with Joe Posts: 12,884	This wouldn't have happened if everyone in the world was required to speak English only!
	__________________ Church on Sunday, sleep and nod Tryin' to duck the wrath of God Preacher's fillin' us with fright Tryin' to tell us what he thinks is right He really got to be some kind of nut (I can't use it!) Tryin' to make it real - compared to what?

20th August 2006, 08:44 PM	#16
demon Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,744	What a bunch of complete tossers. As Brooklyn says, it would have been funny if the plane had taken off without them and left the two Asian passengers on board speaking their sinister "Arabic"!. To be honest I think it's a bit of an exageration to claim the UK population has joined in this hysteria, as I`ve heard a few people say when I was out and about today. Rather a small group of morons on this flight did, but generally a lot of people are very skeptical about this so called "terror plot/plots". It's just the British press who have creamed their pants about it all, particularly the so called "quality" rags.
demon Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,744	__________________ "... You don`t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."

20th August 2006, 08:51 PM	#17
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by brooklyn44 If there were any justice, the complainants should have been denied flight on that airline and the two British citizens who were Asian should have been allowed to continue on their way, Oh, that's the problem . . . well I think I can easily align myself with your idea of justice. Personally, I would feel uncomfortable flying with Inuit tribesmen who speak Swahili, but that's just me.
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

20th August 2006, 09:05 PM	#18
demon Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,744	Mephisto: "Oh, that's the problem . . . well I think I can easily align myself with your idea of justice. Personally, I would feel uncomfortable flying with Inuit tribesmen who speak Swahili, but that's just me." Hey, how about gay service men form the early 70`s? Sorry, couldn`t resist (I`ll run for cover now lol) I`m definitely going to bed!!!
demon Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,744	__________________ "... You don`t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."

20th August 2006, 09:55 PM	#19
Azure Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Alberta Posts: 2,538	Originally Posted by demon One hopes the two guys involved will sue the arse right out of the airline. God, you can only imagine the laws a good lawyer might argue they've broke? Racial discrimination, harassment, breaking contracts, emotional distress, slander etc etc. Right....sue the airline, when in fact the airline wasn't at fault.

20th August 2006, 10:38 PM	#20
demon Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,744	Azure: "Right....sue the airline, when in fact the airline wasn't at fault." No, not if the airline was the Luftwaffe! Do you sell 1940-1945 hmm, let`s call it "Military" Memorabilia on ebay by any chance (can`t say the "N" word with the "Z" in it you understand) No offence meant of course...genuine question...got anything from "Boys from Brazil"?
demon Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,744	__________________ "... You don`t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."

21st August 2006, 03:09 AM	#21
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,059	Originally Posted by Azure Right....sue the airline, when in fact the airline wasn't at fault. Well, the airline did deny two passengers their flight, which they had already paid for. The men weren't suspicious--they already passed the airline and airport security, and were allowed to board. The other passengers, who are NOT granted the power to determine who flies and who doesn't, for some reason were given their way by the airline. What's with that? Next time I fly, can I get up a movement among the passengers to vote off the crying babies, and have the airline bow to our wishes? I thought disrupting a flight was grounds for being denied service, not an acceptable method to deny service to other passengers. The airline's fault is that it crumbled to pressure from a gang of disruptive passengers who themselves should have removed from the flight.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

21st August 2006, 03:15 AM	#22
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,741	Originally Posted by Azure Right....sue the airline, when in fact the airline wasn't at fault. The airline prevented two legitimate passengers from flying. The proper course of action would have been for the airline to remove the passengers causing the disruption and not allow them to fly (and obviously they would get no compensation). I would like to think if I was on the flight I would have kicked up a fuss about the other passengers and once back in the UK I'd have made myself available to all media to put forward a different side i.e. that the flight was full of racist, bigoted fools! I do wonder how many of the passengers then got a taxi at the airport that was driven by an "Asian/Arabic/not one of us" looking driver?
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

21st August 2006, 03:39 AM	#23
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,103	Originally Posted by Darat The airline prevented two legitimate passengers from flying. The proper course of action would have been for the airline to remove the passengers causing the disruption and not allow them to fly (and obviously they would get no compensation). I read it that the police removed the two suspect passengers. Surely in this case the passengers should be sueing the police, right? -Andrew
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

21st August 2006, 04:05 AM	#24
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,741	Originally Posted by gumboot I read it that the police removed the two suspect passengers. Surely in this case the passengers should be sueing the police, right? -Andrew Don't know enough about Spanish law but if this had happened in the UK then I'd say they'd also have a case against the police. ETA: According to the Daily Mail report: A spokesman for the Civil Guard in Malaga said: "These men had aroused suspicion because of their appearance and the fact that they were speaking in a foreign language thought to be an Arabic language, and the pilot was refusing to take off until they were escorted off the plane." So nope it's back to the airline - sounds as if the police were doing what they could do to keep the peace.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

21st August 2006, 04:36 AM	#25
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by Darat According to the Daily Mail report: A spokesman for the Civil Guard in Malaga said: "These men had aroused suspicion because of their appearance and the fact that they were speaking in a foreign language thought to be an Arabic language, and the pilot was refusing to take off until they were escorted off the plane." So nope it's back to the airline - sounds as if the police were doing what they could do to keep the peace. I agree, the knee-jerk attitude is to blame the police when it was actually the passengers who initiated the wrongful action by the pilot who represents the airline. What is so damn ominous about people in Europe speaking a foreign language? You Europeans are sounding about as ethno-centric as the Americans these days.
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

21st August 2006, 05:13 AM	#26
alock Student Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 33	Originally Posted by Darat I would like to think if I was on the flight I would have kicked up a fuss about the other passengers and once back in the UK I'd have made myself available to all media to put forward a different side i.e. that the flight was full of racist, bigoted fools! On the other hand, I would have put myself forward to the media to provide an accurate account of what I saw. You appear to have already made up your mind as to what you think of these people (purely from a Daily Mail report) so you are there ideal witness.
alock Student Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 33

21st August 2006, 05:24 AM	#27
Ralph Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: S.E. Mass....... Posts: 997	Originally Posted by Mephisto Oh, well they're certainly within their rights not to fly on that particular plane, nevermind. P.S. What's the problem then? Your post mentions something about "irrational mob violence". I don't see how talking to the crew & walking off the plane constitutes "irrational mob violence" .All the accounts I read indicate that it was all done in a very orderly fashion. I still remember my first plane flight back the 60's. I was partly excited and partly apprehensive.......but the fear only involved the plane crashing. At that point in time it hadn't become fashionable yet for muslims to blow up planes so they could get laid in paradise. If I'd expressed concern back then about someone blowing the plane up I can understand how I could have been seen as being paranoid but given recent events---I don't see how the passengers were all that unreasonable. None of us were there. We don't know what was going on but supposedly one the passengers heard something she didn't like. It hasn't been explained yet what that meant but she could very well have heard something that indicated a possible threat. You were a trained sniper. You never had a hunch or gut feeling about a dangerous situation and erred on the side of caution because of it? It's amazing how people seems to think how ridiculous it is to assume someone that looks a little sinister ( & wearing long leather coats on a hot day does just not look right) couldn't possibly be a terrorist because they are too smart for that. Any well planned terrorist attack on an airplane will more likely involve blue-eyed blonde females....not some guy with a beard holding a scimitar in his teeth so being suspicious of someone that looks suspicious is just being paranoid. Do you think that it's possible that it might just be some lone nut out to kill as many people as he can because that's what allah wishes for him. Somebody that believes in an invisible sky-being who will reward him with a boatload of pussy if he kills a bunch of non-believers might just be a little crazy to begin with. Sometimes lunatics & psychotics really do look & act like lunatics & psychotics and I can't find all that much fault with the passengers for there actions.

21st August 2006, 05:37 AM	#28
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,741	Originally Posted by alock On the other hand, I would have put myself forward to the media to provide an accurate account of what I saw. You appear to have already made up your mind as to what you think of these people (purely from a Daily Mail report) so you are there ideal witness. Er not quite it comes from reading many accounts of the incident, including interviews with some of the passengers, quotes from the pilot, quotes from the airline, quotes from the Spanish civil police and so on. Obviously my conclusions about the racism and bigotry shown by some of the above may be wrong however so far the evidence shows that some of the passengers acted in racist and bigoted manner and the airline allowed those racist bigots to determine who could fly with "them". Obviously if you have evidence to the contrary I am happy to change my conclusion.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

21st August 2006, 05:45 AM	#29
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,741	Originally Posted by Ralph ...snip... None of us were there. We don't know what was going on but supposedly one the passengers heard something she didn't like. It hasn't been explained yet what that meant but she could very well have heard something that indicated a possible threat. ...snip.. None of the reports I've read mention this - all of them mention that "someone" thought they (the two British people) were talking in something they thought was Arabic. Originally Posted by Ralph ...snip... It's amazing how people seems to think how ridiculous it is to assume someone that looks a little sinister ( & wearing long leather coats on a hot day does just not look right) ...snip... Where did you read about "long leather coats"? Originally Posted by Ralph ....snip... not some guy with a beard holding a scimitar in his teeth so being suspicious of someone that looks suspicious is just being paranoid. ...snip.. Not read about anyone having a scimitar on them - that really would have been a breakdown in airport security so I would have expected at least someone to have mentioned this detail... ? Originally Posted by Ralph Do you think that it's possible that it might just be some lone nut out to kill as many people as he can because that's what allah wishes for him. Somebody that believes in an invisible sky-being who will reward him with a boatload of pussy if he kills a bunch of non-believers might just be a little crazy to begin with. Sometimes lunatics & psychotics really do look & act like lunatics & psychotics and I can't find all that much fault with the passengers for there actions. Who was looking like a lunatic or psychotic - again none of the reports mention this aspect. So far the grounds of suspicion seems to have been "they were speaking in we think not-English and weren't wearing a "kiss me quick" hat and carrying a straw donkey as all non-terrorists do"... (I may have embellished that paraphrasing ever so slightly...)
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

23rd August 2006, 02:18 AM	#30
Cylinder Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,835	Passenger defends actions Quote: A man on board a flight to Manchester from Malaga has defended passengers' actions after their suspicions led to two men being removed from the plane. David Wearden, 42, from Chester, said it was reports that the pair had been overheard claiming they had 30 minutes left to live which led to concerns.
	__________________ If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed ; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves. - Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm

23rd August 2006, 02:24 AM	#31
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,741	First time this has been mentioned as far as I know. None of the other passengers interviewed have claimed they said this - their claims have been that the two British passengers were "acting suspicious", "wearing the wrong clothes" and "speaking in 'Arabic'" so I would add this report to the rest and say it is at best nothing more then the result of Chinese whispers. (Note - Wearden does not state he or his family heard the men make such a comment.)
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008 Last edited by Darat; 23rd August 2006 at 02:27 AM. Reason: Lots of words.

23rd August 2006, 02:37 AM	#32
Cylinder Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,835	Originally Posted by Darat First time this has been mentioned as far as I know. None of the other passengers interviewed have claimed they said this - their claims have been that the two British passengers were "acting suspicious", "wearing the wrong clothes" and "speaking in 'Arabic'" so I would add this report to the rest and say it is at best nothing more then the result of Chinese whispers. (Note - Wearden does not state he or his family heard the men make such a comment.) Certainly we don't have any way to judge that hypothesis. I agree that it is plausible that it could have happened that way. No-one is claiming that the men were shouting these comments across the terminal, so it would be likely in that instance that only a few people would hear them. Do you agree that if true, these comments sort of changes the whole dynamic, right? What seems just as likely to my mind is a passenger with a mild fear of flying making an unfortunate joke or some jerk making a stupid comment about the foiled bomb plot.
	__________________ If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed ; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves. - Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm

23rd August 2006, 02:42 AM	#33
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,103	Originally Posted by Darat First time this has been mentioned as far as I know. None of the other passengers interviewed have claimed they said this - their claims have been that the two British passengers were "acting suspicious", "wearing the wrong clothes" and "speaking in 'Arabic'" so I would add this report to the rest and say it is at best nothing more then the result of Chinese whispers. (Note - Wearden does not state he or his family heard the men make such a comment.) Do you think that David Wearden's actions are reasonable and rational, given HIS reasons as provided? -Andrew
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

23rd August 2006, 02:47 AM	#34
Cylinder Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,835	According to the article, it was not "Chinese whispers," but his own wife who claimed to have spoken to the womon who had allegedly overheard the comment: Quote: We were then asked to get off the plane and go back to the airport where they did a full security check." It was then, he said, that his wife Susanne began talking to another passenger who said she had sat next to the two men. "She said she had heard them saying it was the last 30 minutes of their lives," said Mr Wearden. "It may well be that the two simply thought they were being funny, but it perhaps better explains the passenger reaction."
	__________________ If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed ; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves. - Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm

23rd August 2006, 02:48 AM	#35
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,103	Originally Posted by Cylinder Do you agree that if true, these comments sort of changes the whole dynamic, right? What seems just as likely to my mind is a passenger with a mild fear of flying making an unfortunate joke or some jerk making a stupid comment about the foiled bomb plot. It's also just as possible that, as the word spread, a few bigots and racists amongst the passengers (let's face it, we ALL have our prejudices, and in any random selection of the population you will get people like that) leapt onto the whole "arabic", "evil muslim terrorist" thing? Given it was a false alarm, and the ensuing madness, if someone did overhear something about "30 mins to live" and they were a decent person, might they now feel rather guilty and not be too keen to go "actually I forced these poor people off the plane because of something I overheard, or something someone said they overheard..." And if any decent rational people aren't speaking out due to guilt, might that leave only the bigots and racists (who, in my experience, are usually only to keen to announce their opinions to the world). Seems unfair to label all the passengers as bigots and racists, and when an alternative rational motivation is offered, simply dismiss it out of hand as a "chinese whisper". That reeks of speaking from a firmly established position. -Andrew
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.