Embryonic development

FireGarden · 6th February 2003, 10:07 AM

A short clear description of embryonic development, written by someone who knows the details but in language that is not too technical would help me in a discussion I'm involved in.

For a bonus point,
How many veils of darkness hide the process? (It would be helpful if you could provide support for as many different numerical guesses as you can)

I've seen terms like gastrula, which apparently includes three layers: the ectoderm, the endoderm and the mesoderm, which develops between the other two layers in most animals.

Thanks

Goshawk · 6th February 2003, 11:13 AM

1. You're talking about human embryonic development, or some other critter?
2. How much detail do you need?
3. Sorry, no idea what you mean by "how many veils of darkness hide the process". The process of embryo development in mammals, which includes humans, is AFAIK quite well understood.

http://www.visembryo.com/baby/
http://www.med.unc.edu/embryo_images..._htms/akgs.htm
http://www.med.upenn.edu/meded/public/berp/
http://fig.cox.miami.edu/~cmallery/1...evelopment.htm

Liamo · 6th February 2003, 11:22 AM

GP,

I strongly encourage you to read Qur'an and Science: Embryology if you are involved in such a discussion.
(cached version here)

Sample:

Quote:

If it is indeed true that certain verses accurately foretell modern scientific ideas which could not be tested in the seventh century, then it implies that the Qur'an must have had a divine author. It is the intention of this paper to examine what exactly was known about the human embryo at the time of Muhammed in order to see whether any of the theories expressed in the Qur'an were true or indeed well known before this time.

...

Thus according to Muhammed, the drop of sperm remains in the womb for 40 days, then becomes a clot for a further 40 days, then a lump of flesh for 40 days [16]. It has been shown that human sperm can only survive inside a woman's reproductive tract for a maximum of 7 days; at 80 days the embryo has very definitely acquired the shape of a human being and looks nothing like either a clot or a mouthful of flesh.

...

However, the most convincing explanation, and the most worrying for those who maintain that the Qur'an is God's eternal Word, untampered with and free from any human interference, is that the Qur'an is merely repeating the teaching of the enormously influential Greek physician Galen. If this is the case, not only is the Qur'an wrong, but it also plagiarises ancient Greek literature!

Liam

Goshawk · 6th February 2003, 11:27 AM

Well, does he want Science, or Religion?

FireGarden · 6th February 2003, 02:30 PM

Thanks, Liam, I'll check out that link.
And yes, it is about the science in the Quran.

Goshawk,
I wanted science to use in an argument on religion!

On "veils of darkness" I wanted to see if you could find layers of anything (eg: the gastrula. Although abdomin, uterus, fluid are the 3 normally offered up in argument) If the Quran could have gotten away with saying 4 layers or 5 layers then 3 becomes less of a coincidence. Of course, I'll be using 6 layers as a possibility in my counter-argument.

Maybe I should have put it in the puzzles section...
...But it started out in Banter!!!

Thanks for the technical links.
I hope that they're not too technical!

xouper · 11th February 2004, 10:51 AM

bump

6th February 2003, 10:07 AM	#1
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Embryonic development A short clear description of embryonic development, written by someone who knows the details but in language that is not too technical would help me in a discussion I'm involved in. For a bonus point, How many veils of darkness hide the process? (It would be helpful if you could provide support for as many different numerical guesses as you can) I've seen terms like gastrula, which apparently includes three layers: the ectoderm, the endoderm and the mesoderm, which develops between the other two layers in most animals. Thanks
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

6th February 2003, 11:22 AM	#3
Liamo Occasional Poster Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 74	GP, I strongly encourage you to read Qur'an and Science: Embryology if you are involved in such a discussion. (cached version here) Sample: Quote: If it is indeed true that certain verses accurately foretell modern scientific ideas which could not be tested in the seventh century, then it implies that the Qur'an must have had a divine author. It is the intention of this paper to examine what exactly was known about the human embryo at the time of Muhammed in order to see whether any of the theories expressed in the Qur'an were true or indeed well known before this time. ... Thus according to Muhammed, the drop of sperm remains in the womb for 40 days, then becomes a clot for a further 40 days, then a lump of flesh for 40 days [16]. It has been shown that human sperm can only survive inside a woman's reproductive tract for a maximum of 7 days; at 80 days the embryo has very definitely acquired the shape of a human being and looks nothing like either a clot or a mouthful of flesh. ... However, the most convincing explanation, and the most worrying for those who maintain that the Qur'an is God's eternal Word, untampered with and free from any human interference, is that the Qur'an is merely repeating the teaching of the enormously influential Greek physician Galen. If this is the case, not only is the Qur'an wrong, but it also plagiarises ancient Greek literature! Liam
Liamo Occasional Poster Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 74

6th February 2003, 02:30 PM	#5
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Thanks, Liam, I'll check out that link. And yes, it is about the science in the Quran. Goshawk, I wanted science to use in an argument on religion! On "veils of darkness" I wanted to see if you could find layers of anything (eg: the gastrula. Although abdomin, uterus, fluid are the 3 normally offered up in argument) If the Quran could have gotten away with saying 4 layers or 5 layers then 3 becomes less of a coincidence. Of course, I'll be using 6 layers as a possibility in my counter-argument. Maybe I should have put it in the puzzles section... ...But it started out in Banter!!! Thanks for the technical links. I hope that they're not too technical!
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

11th February 2004, 10:51 AM	#6
xouper Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,189	bump
xouper Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,189

6th February 2003, 11:13 AM	#2
Goshawk Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Decatur, Illinois, USA Posts: 1,453	1. You're talking about human embryonic development, or some other critter? 2. How much detail do you need? 3. Sorry, no idea what you mean by "how many veils of darkness hide the process". The process of embryo development in mammals, which includes humans, is AFAIK quite well understood. http://www.visembryo.com/baby/ http://www.med.unc.edu/embryo_images..._htms/akgs.htm http://www.med.upenn.edu/meded/public/berp/ http://fig.cox.miami.edu/~cmallery/1...evelopment.htm

6th February 2003, 11:27 AM	#4
Goshawk Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Decatur, Illinois, USA Posts: 1,453	Well, does he want Science, or Religion?