AA For Dummies

[Luke T.]

There doesn't seem to be a guide on the internet for people who are thinking about going to AA. Maybe you have butterflies in your stomach and the only thing stopping you from going is not knowing what to expect.

Or you just may be an interested observer who wants to know what goes on in AA meetings.

Either way, here you go. AA for Dummies.

If you have come to this topic as the result of doing a search on the internet, welcome to JREF! Take a look around the site and come on in, the water's fine. Lots of good stuff and even better people here.

What you will see:

Most AA meetings are held in church basements and such. It is an AA tradition that they don't own any property, so they have to depend on others to provide them space, and that usually ends up being a church. Sometimes there are AA clubs where they have their own space, but those are rare. Some meetings are held in libraries, fraternal lodges, private homes, storage rooms, hospitals, and even inside jails and prisons.

When you arrive, you will see clusters of people gathered outside chatting before the meeting. A few people will be inside making the coffee and preparing the meeting room.

Some meetings are smoking meetings, but there are less and less of those. Most are non-smoking now.

So you just go inside the meeting room and pick a seat and sit down.

At the appropriate time, people will begin settling in and then the chairperson will commence the meeting. Usually by starting it out with the Serentity Prayer: God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference.

Everyone will say this prayer aloud.

Then the chairperson will read a few standard things that are read out loud at the beginnning of every AA meeting.

The chairperson will have asked a couple people ahead of time to read "How It Works" and The 12 Traditions, and will then call on them to read them aloud to everyone.

If the chairperson sees you wandering about before the meeting, he or she may ask you to read How It Works or the 12 traditions. Don't be afraid to decline. Just explain it is your first meeting.

After all this, the chairperson may then ask if there are any AA related announcements, or this portion may be reserved for the middle of the meeting.

Then they will ask if there is anyone at their first, second, or third AA meeting ever. At which point, you can introduce yourself if you so desire. If you do introduce yourself, everyone will then welcome you heartily. "Welcome Joe!"

At some meetings, the chairperson will offer a "One Day At A Time" chip for the newcomer. If you decide to accept, the chairperson will wave you up and everyone will applaud as you walk up and receive your chip.

Then the chairperson will ask if anyone is in their first 30 days of sobriety. At this point, other people will introduce themselves. Some may be newcomers like yourself but who have been to more than three meetings but still have less than a month sobriety. Others may be people who had longer periods of sobriety but then had a slip and are now less than 30 days sober again.

Then milestone chips are handed out. These are usually for 30, 60, and 90 days. Then six months and nine months. Then yearly anniversary chips. Sometimes people who are celebrating a year or more may be called upon to make a small speech.

The part where they give out chips may also be deferred to the middle of the meeting, or maybe even the end of the meeting.

The actual meeting starts with the chairperson discussing a particular topic. He or she may read something from the AA text (The Big Book) or from some other AA approved literature for inspiration.

At this point, the meeting is open for discussion from anyone in attendance. Sometimes the chairperson may call on specific individuals first, and the open the floor up to anyone.

Usually about midway through the meeting, a basket is passed around. This is to help to pay for the coffee and other overhead.

You can drink all the coffee you want or other beverages they have there. Help yourself. No charge.

Only once have I seen an AA meeting where they charged you for the coffee and that was in NYC, and I thought that was in extremely bad taste. But I believe it was to discourage scammers on the street from dropping in for a free cup of coffee.

Anyway, you don't have to put anything in the basket. When people do, they usually just drop in a dollar. For the last 50 years or so, a dollar.

There is a movement to get people to put in two dollars due to inflation.

There is also the AA text, commonly referred to as the Big Book. They will suggest you get one. They are available at every AA meeting and generally go for five bucks. Some AA meetings believe that if you can't afford the five bucks, then just take a Big Book and pay them back when you can by dropping the five bucks in the basket someday in the future.

You can ask about the policies after the meeting. Ask anyone.

You DO NOT have to put anything in the basket.

This period may be used to make any AA related announcements and give out chips.

At the end of the hour, everybody gets up and stands in a big circle holding hands. Usually, the Lord's Prayer is said. Then they all chant, "Keep coming back! It works if you work it!" while pumping their hands up and down in rhythm to the chant.

At that point, some people dash out and go home. Some hang around and chat with each other. Some make plans to go get something to eat. You may find yourself approached by people wishing to welcome you. You may be even invited to go out to dinner or for coffee with them. It's up to you whether or not to accept.

If at the beginning of the meeting you introduce yourself as someone in their first, second, or third meeting, this may prompt someone to pass a piece of paper or somesuch around for all the members of your gender to write down their names and phone numbers. They will then give this list to you so you can call any of them any time you feel the urge to drink or if you just want to talk.

How to find an AA meeting:

Look in the phone book. There will be a phone number for AA in there. This phone number is manned 24 hours a day. The way it works is that members volunteer to have the number call forwarded to their home phone in the evening. These volunteers have a list of every meeting in your area, and a list of other volunteers who are willing to come to your house if you are suffering and need to talk to someone. They will also come to your house and drive you to a meeting if you wish.

Don't worry if it is three a.m. If you feel the need to talk to someone, call. They really won't mind.

Types of meetings:

If you have a list of AA meetings for your area, you may notice some of them have codes which explain what type of meeting each one is.

The most prevalant codes are "open" and "closed" meetings.

Open meetings are open to one and all. Alcoholic or not. I have seen psychology students, and professionals who work with alcoholics attending these meetings, trying to surrepticiously scribble notes.

Closed meetings are strictly for people who have a desire to stop drinking.

I haven't really noticed any significant difference between open and closed meetings. Pretty much the same stuff goes on. So, sorry. No secret handshakes or rituals.

By far the most common AA meetings, whether open or closed, are basically discussion meetings. Someone brings up a topic, and people raise their hands if they want to say something on that topic. But it is a rare meeting where everyone stays on topic.

There are step study meetings as well. At these meetings, they read from what is called the 12 & 12 (or 12 by 12). This is a book about the 12 steps and 12 traditions of AA. At the beginning of the meeting, after all the usual prelimaries are finished, a chapter is read about one of the 12 steps and then people share their stories how they took that step.

There are other kinds of meetings which cater to people's tastes as well. There are men-only meetings, women-only meetings, gay meetings, and so on.

And then there are "speaker meetings." These are meetings where someone with a few years of sobriety speaks for the whole hour and tells everyone "what it was like, what happened, and what it is like now". Some are better than others. I used to like speaker meetings a lot in the beginning of my sobriety.

Some meetings are really down and dirty and gritty. Some are what I call "Ah Ah" meetings. A play on "A.A." where everyone is kind of snooty and dresses up and tries to impress everyone else with their material success.

Some of the general type meetings end up becoming very popular and may have up to a hundred or more people in attendance at them. These meetings tend to draw a lot of newcomers. Then there are meetings where maybe a dozen people regularly attend. I've been to meetings were several hundred people were in attendance. I've been to meetings where it was just me and one other person. And in one memorable period, there was just me. Talking to myself...



Make the rounds and see what fits.

Just how anonymous are these meetings?:

If you confess to being the shooter on the grassy knoll during an AA meeting, there is no guarantee your secret will be safe.

People make friends with each other. They get to know each other's full names, addresses, and occupations just like everybody else.

And people gossip like any other group of people.

However, I think you will be amazed at the level of confidentiality that is kept. At some point in journey through the steps, you are going to expose your darkest, dirtiest secrets to someone, and that is going to be very important to your recovery. And because it is important to your recovery, that makes it a matter of life and death, and the membership takes it just that seriously.

Also, no one is going to dash out of a meeting and tell your boss they saw you at AA. I suppose that could happen in an open meeting, which is why some people prefer to attend only closed meetings.

But you will meet fellow members of AA out and about in the community and no one will be the wiser.

I like to do like the Mob. If I am with another AA member somewhere and I am introducing him to a friend, if that friend is also in AA, I say, "I'd like you to meet a friend of ours." If my friend is not in AA, I say, "I would like you to meet a friend of mine."



So there you go. If I think of something else, which I probalby will, I will add more later.

[Q-Source]

Your description is interesting. I don´t have a problem with alcohol but from your description, I would feel discouraged to join an AA if I knew that it is linked to any form of Christian religious practice. What happens if an atheist wants to join?, what if a muslim has a drink problem?.

[El Greco]

I could overlook the religious references, but that chanting and hand-pumping... I'd probably couldn't keep a straight face for more than 2 seconds

[qayak]

Originally Posted by El Greco

I could overlook the religious references, but that chanting and hand-pumping... I'd probably couldn't keep a straight face for more than 2 seconds

Even Home Depot employees have to chant in the morning.

[Tricky]

A few other things and people you will see at an AA meeting. (The male gender is used for convenience. It implies nothing about the person's actual gender)

• Smoke. Lots of smoke. Substance abusers tend to replace one substance with another, and the drug of choice at AA is nicotine. Do not go to a regular AA meeting if you have any sort of lung problems. Some places do have smokeless meetings, but they are the most poorly attended of all meetings. Sit near a window or a vent if you can't handle the smoke.

• Coffee too. Most alcoholics drink coffee at any waking hour, of which there are a lot, because they drink so much coffee. The book that they often reference, "Twenty Four Hours a Day" is not much of an exaggeration. Also there will be a can or a box for attendees to contribute (I think Luke noted this)

• At least one person who has been ordered by the court to be there. You will usually see these people at the back of the room, sometimes in the presence of a police or parole officer, looking bored, angry and sullen and never saying a word. Rarely, very rarely, one of these people will be "saved" and will join the rest of the group, but as all AA people know, the first thing you need to stop drinking is the wish to stop drinking.

• At least one person who has been in AA for twenty years or more. They will usually be up front, occasionally commenting, sometimes just nodding in approval or frowning when a mistake is made, much like a college professor listening to his students giving a talk.

• At least one person who knows every every aphorism, every old saw, every cliché and every joke about drinking... which he will freely share with the group.

• At least one deeply religious person who will explain that their higher power is God or Jesus and that he would be dead now if it wasn't for Him. Often, this is the person whose church the meetings are held in the basement of. He will gladly elaborate if you show interest, or even make eye contact.

• At least one person who has recently had a relapse and is suffering with remorse, and sometimes a hangover. Sometimes this person will be crying softly. If they are asked to or choose to speak, they may start crying loudly.

• At least one clueless newbie with a "desire" chip. Often this person is bubbling with enthusiasm for the "great work" that AA does and is gung-ho to set a record for completing all twelve steps. Frequently, this person becomes "Suffering with Remorse" in subsequent weeks.

• At least one person who has a tragic past as the result of alcohol. It may have been that they caused a fatal accident. It may be that they spent time in prison. You probably won't recognize this person because they usually don't want to talk about it. On the rare occasion where they do tell their story, prepare to cry.

• At least one drifter or out-of-towner. They may or not be talkative, depending on where they are in the program. They usually get a lot of attention, because the regulars have heard all the other stories many times, and need some new entertainment.

• A social organizer. It will appear to all that this person is the leader of the group, but they may have little involvement other than to plan outings and get-togethers. There may be more than one. They are usually laughing and hobnobbing. "Tragic Past" usually avoids them.

• At least one sage. Usually, but not always, this is an older person. He is one of the most important people at the meeting. He may not say much, but he is the repository of real wisdom (not to be confused with "Cliché Guy"). He has sponsored many or most of the people there. You really can call him anytime, and he really is glad you did. He is patient with "Newbie" and has disdain for "Court-Ordered". Don't confuse him with "College Professor", who is more concerned with making sure people say the right things than with imparting wisdom.

[Dancing David]

There are many kinds of twelve step meetings as well, based upon the AA meeting, and even in AA there is some variation of format and compsotion.

On the religous aspect, it varies from meeting to meeting and group to group, some groups are bible thumper then there are the DFD groups, they are more cynical about the twelve steps, although they follow them, but when people get too lost in thier 'program' and start to focus outside the core issue then some wit will pull out the DFD , don't freaking drink.

It is best not to speak until you have listened for quite a while, newbies tend to get a lot of 'crosstalk' where everybody in the group will offer lots of good bad and mediocre advice, some groups don't allow crosstalk.

You will also see and smell drunk people, although different groups have different levels of tolerance.

The main point is that you will hear the 'normalization' of the experience of chronic alcohol use, many people feel they are alone in thier issues and find solace and wisdom in listening to others.

Best advice, shop around, find your 'home' meeting and stick with it.

[davefoc]

Thanks to everybody that contributed to this thread. This was something that I knew nothing about, but was interested in. A couple of comments:

We have somebody in the family who is being destroyed by alcohol and we have somebody in the family that was substantially harmed by alcohol who may be controlling her problem to some degree. I thought that the person who was being destroyed by alcohol was just going to end up completely destroying herself. I talked to her spouse about it and he said that she was absolutely refusing all intervention, treatment and was not going to change and he didn't think there was anything he could do about it. But a few weeks later, it seems like she has taken some steps to control it, so maybe something will work out there. Does anybody have any thoughts on whether AA would be of benefit to her? I don't know if it is significant to the answer but her beliefs tend toward the woo woo side.

Frankly, I think I would not be very sympathetic to alcoholics if I didn't have my own problems with overeating. I am about thirty pounds overweight and have tried for years to lose that weight, but my desire to overeat seems stronger than my desire to be thinner. I think there is something hypocritical about needing my own related problem before I can be sympathetic to somebody else's problem. But that's the way it is. I mention this only because I find something soothing about owning up to my own hypocrisy occasionally.

[Steven Howard]

I don't have any personal experience with them, but there is a group called SOS -- Secular Organizations for Sobriety, which has a similar "support group" model to AA and other 12-step programs, without all the god-bothering.

[CplFerro]

Don't forget the authoritive investigation by that crack team, Penn & Teller.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...eller+********

[cbish]

To Luke T.
Thank you for the OP. You've been very honest for years about how you've dealt with this and I've always been curious. I must admit, I'm very borderline with alcohol and have considered AA but have been standoff-ish not because of the cause but of the method. Tricky's post has also been a huge concern. With all due respect, Luke, your post has solidified my worst fears of AA. If I want to stop drinking, I want to stop drinking! I don't want fan-fare, chants, or group hugs. It's a personal problem that I'd like to handle personally (with help) but I don't need a cheer section. I'll check out the SOS site.

cb

edit to add: I'm veryfamiliar with AA and rehap through friends and other family members.

[Tricky]

Originally Posted by cbish

To Luke T.
Thank you for the OP. You've been very honest for years about how you've dealt with this and I've always been curious. I must admit, I'm very borderline with alcohol and have considered AA but have been standoff-ish not because of the cause but of the method. Tricky's post has also been a huge concern. With all due respect, Luke, your post has solidified my worst fears of AA. If I want to stop drinking, I want to stop drinking! I don't want fan-fare, chants, or group hugs. It's a personal problem that I'd like to handle personally (with help) but I don't need a cheer section. I'll check out the SOS site.

cb

I'm in the same boat, CB. I haven't really been AA much myself, but my dad was very active in it for many years. I went to tons of "open meetings" when I was a child and all of those characters are real to me and many of them have been friends of the family for years.

But I would say, give it a shot. In spite of the occasional religious overtones, it is actually a very good program which has saved many a person. Some it hasn't helped at all. Some, like me, it opened my eyes, but didn't make me stop drinking.

I went for a while myself. I am also an alcoholic, although more functional than some. (AA taught me not to try to fool myself.) I wasn't able to complete the program, and I am not staying sober, but I gained an insight into what alcohol can do to people.

I have no illusions about my own failings. As a result of AA, I am a better skeptic. Even if I am a recalcitrant, rather than a recovering alcoholic, I am not in denial. If someone tells me I drink too much, I say "I know". I greatly respect people like Luke who have been able to work the program. He's a stronger man than I.

So I'd advise you to go to a few meetings. It won't hurt you. It might help you. It will be an experience you will remember, maybe not fondly, but with greater understanding.

[0oTITANo0]

There is an AA guy at work. We hung out a bit untill he started really pressing me with religion and "witnessing". Ugh. That was the end of that.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by cbish

To Luke T.
Thank you for the OP. You've been very honest for years about how you've dealt with this and I've always been curious. I must admit, I'm very borderline with alcohol and have considered AA but have been standoff-ish not because of the cause but of the method. Tricky's post has also been a huge concern. With all due respect, Luke, your post has solidified my worst fears of AA. If I want to stop drinking, I want to stop drinking! I don't want fan-fare, chants, or group hugs. It's a personal problem that I'd like to handle personally (with help) but I don't need a cheer section. I'll check out the SOS site.

cb

edit to add: I'm veryfamiliar with AA and rehap through friends and other family members.

I recommend the book Rational Recovery by Jack Trimpey, he is as over the top as AA, but the book is very useful. Also a quick web search will lead you to Jeanne Kirkpatrick, another good source of insight.

The group process is useful but I used to counsel people who are not dyed in the wool biological alcoholics to avoid AA until they were firm in thier sobriety.


Also reading a good source on CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy is helpful to changing the patterns.

For people who are abusers but not dependant there is always relapse prevention.

1. Take care of yourself, see doctor's eat right, exercise, socialise in setting that are free of your substance.
2. Identify thoughts and triggers that are going to leasd to relapse and avoid those situations.

3. When you find yourself in a situation where you are facing relapse, get out and get help.

[andyandy]

i've posted a thread on this on SMMT, but it's been spectacularly unpopular, so i guess i'll ask on this one

basically, is there any scientific basis to rehab? It seems that rehab courses for drink, drugs, gambling etc. are based on the 12 point plan and yet, the 12 point plan seems to revolve around god. Why is god in rehab?!

[AmateurScientist]

Luke and Tricky,

Thanks for your terrific descriptions and even more for your candor and moral courage. Luke, I know you have been very forthright about your alcoholism for years on this board, and I'm certain you have been an inspiration to many here, and in "real life" (not this this board doesn't affect people in real life -- we all know it does). Tricky, I had no idea, and I commend you for coming out about your alcoholism, if you are indeed just now coming out on this board about it. Good luck.

cbish, more of the same to you. Good luck, and I would be as wary of the God parts of AA as you apparently are.

El Greco,

I'm with you man. The chanting alone would probably keep me away.

back to Luke and Tricky,

I have a question for you. I understand the confidences that dedicated AA supporters try to keep and why. I feel bad in a sense about something I recently encountered, but it came about innocently, and also because it was my duty to follow up on it. I was recently taking the sworn deposition of a witness in a civil case I have, and the witness mentioned a particular man he knew and described something he did. I asked him on the record how he knew the man (that's something I would always ask, as a thorough lawyer often goes off on tangents, exploring in a pre-trial discovery deposition like this one). He gave an evasive answer like "I've known him for a while." I told him that's not what I asked. I asked how he knew him. Again he dodged the question. I asked a third time and he got defensive and visibly upset, but answered truthfully that he was trying to avoid having to tell me that he knew him from AA. I then told him I wasn't trying to get him to reveal any confidences, but it was important for me to know how he knew the guy (and I actually suspected that was the reason after he dodged my question the second time). He responded that he felt like I did make him reveal a confidence. We moved on after that.

I've run into the guy by chance since then, and we were very friendly with each other, so I don't think it left a lasting bad taste in his mouth.

My question is this: Is there a better way you can think of for me to pick up on "code" which may have allowed me to ask a better question and perhaps get a coded response that wouldn't have made him so uncomfortable? I would have accepted, "I know him socially, through mutual friends," for example. I wasn't trying to embarrass the guy or pry. I was exploring.

AS

[cbish]

Thank's guys. I'd like to keep this thread going but I'm going to be away for a day or two. So this is a bump. Tricky and I seem to have alot in common on this issue.

[Luke T.]

Originally Posted by Q-Source

Your description is interesting. I don´t have a problem with alcohol but from your description, I would feel discouraged to join an AA if I knew that it is linked to any form of Christian religious practice. What happens if an atheist wants to join?, what if a muslim has a drink problem?.

There are plenty of atheists in AA. And AA is all over the world. Islam, Hindu, Jewish, whatever.

The third tradition covers it. "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking."

[Luke T.]

I don't know how long it has been since you have been to a meeting, Tricky, but most are non-smoking meetings now.

[Tricky]

Originally Posted by Luke T.

I don't know how long it has been since you have been to a meeting, Tricky, but most are non-smoking meetings now.

About five years. But I would guess that the prevelance of non-smoking meetings depends on lots of things like region (I'm betting there is not much "non-smoking" anything in the tobacco belt) and more likely, facilites. Churches don't want their meeting rooms smelling like smoke. The last one I went to was at a Legion Hall in Alabama, and the smoke was as thick as pea soup. But I'm glad that they are starting to clear the air.

[Luke T.]

I responded to you AS, but have decided what I wrote could be mis-used. So I will PM you.

[Luke T.]

Originally Posted by Tricky

About five years. But I would guess that the prevelance of non-smoking meetings depends on lots of things like region (I'm betting there is not much "non-smoking" anything in the tobacco belt) and more likely, facilites. Churches don't want their meeting rooms smelling like smoke. The last one I went to was at a Legion Hall in Alabama, and the smoke was as thick as pea soup. But I'm glad that they are starting to clear the air.

Yeah. When I first got sober in 1993, I was in Mississippi, and you couldn't see across the room for all the smoke.

[Luke T.]

Originally Posted by El Greco

I could overlook the religious references, but that chanting and hand-pumping... I'd probably couldn't keep a straight face for more than 2 seconds

There is a hell of a lot of laughter in AA meetings.

But most of us are at the point that a little chanting and hand-pumping doesn't even come close to running us off. We are desperate.

I wrote the OP in the full understanding that most of the people here who would be reading it are atheists, and in some cases hostile toward religosity of any kind.

I also realize there are other methods of getting sober that work for some people, and that AA doesn't work for everyone.

But I know, too, that there are people out there who have tried everything else first like I did. Shrinks out the wazoo. Hospitalizations. Controlled drinking. Talk therapy. You name it.

AA works for me. Nothing else did. It is that simple.

Sure, I could get pissed off at some of the religosity and stay away. I could judge the people around me (and have) as a bunch of idiots, blowhards, hypocrites, and low-lifes. I could be too smart for my own good once again, and then I would surely drink again.

Point of fact, I would be dead without AA. And that is such a common truth in the rooms of AA, that is has become a cliche. Some people say it just to say it. Some people say it, like me, because it is true.

So for those who have tried everything else, or are just ready to try anything to get away from the hell they are living in, I wrote this topic.

Eyes wide open. That's all I'm trying to do. Help people walk in with both eyes wide open.

[El Greco]

Originally Posted by Luke T.

Sure, I could get pissed off at some of the religosity and stay away. I could judge the people around me (and have) as a bunch of idiots, blowhards, hypocrites, and low-lifes. I could be too smart for my own good once again, and then I would surely drink again.

But what I said has nothing to do with the above. It's not a criticism, I even said that I could overlook religiosity. It's just that chanting would remind me of an Amway meeting or something. I don't know, maybe it's a cultural thing. I don't doubt that the way AA works is beneficial to many people. Personally I suspect that I'd certainly need all the companionship and encouragement but anything remotely resembling a "rite" would drive me away.

[Luke T.]

Some of the AA lexicon you may hear in a meeting, in no particular order:

Amateur Night: New Year's Eve. Should be self-explanatory from an alcoholic's perspective.

Alcathon: A party held on New Year's Eve for members of AA.

Birthday: The date of your last drink, a.k.a. "sobriety date". Some assign more importance to their AA birthday than to their "Earth birthday". In some locations, people actually give presents to someone celebrating their AA birthday. Which is a little silly to me, but hey...whatever. I once got pulled over for speeding and told the cop I was going somewhere to celebrate my birthday. He looked at my driver's license, then looked back at me. Then I got it. He saw my earth birthday on the license and thought that he had me nailed as a liar. So I had to explain I was on my way to pick up a chip for my AA birthday.

Earthlings: Non-alcoholics. Alcoholics feel like aliens among the normal population. It is hard to convey this lifelong feeling of alienation. I like to compare it to that one quarter that the vending machine won't accept even though it looks and feels just like every other quarter.

One Day At A Time: As simple as it sounds, I had a heck of a time grasping this concept. Every fiber of my being resisted it. It seemed stupid not to plan ahead or think ahead. But in the context of "how am I going to make it through this weekend without drinking?", and it is only Tuesday, then the concept works. Don't worry about this weekend. Just think about not drinking today, Tuesday. Worry about not drinking on Friday when Friday gets here. This concept can be applied to more situations than you realize at first.

Big Book: The main AA text. The actual title of the book is "Alcohlics Anonymous." There are several pieces of literature in AA, but this is the main one. Other texts include "As Bill Sees It", "The 12 Steps and 12 Traditions" (a.k.a. "The 12 & 12" or "12 by 12" depending on where you live), and many books written by AA members, such as "A New Pair of Glasses".

Speaker Tape: There are many popular speakers in AA, and many of these have been recorded. These recordings are still mostly on cassette tape even in this modern age. These tapes are passed around from member to member. The sound quality is terrible, but the content is sometimes good, sometimes not so good.

Don't Give Up 5 Minutes Before The Miracle Happens: Fairly self-explanatory, I think. I hate this expression for reasons I have explained elsewhere.

The lexicon is quite large now that I think about it. Guess I'll stop here.

[Luke T.]

Originally Posted by El Greco

But what I said has nothing to do with the above. It's not a criticism, I even said that I could overlook religiosity. It's just that chanting would remind me of an Amway meeting or something. I don't know, maybe it's a cultural thing. I don't doubt that the way AA works is beneficial to many people. Personally I suspect that I'd certainly need all the companionship and encouragement but anything remotely resembling a "rite" would drive me away.

Then that is a criticism.

I don't know if it is a "rite" as much as a custom. Any organization that has been around a while is going to manifest some customs. It is just the way people who share something in common are. I suppose if we looked at our workplaces or friendships or marriages, we would discover many "rites" in those relationships.

ETA: In other countries, they do meetings differently. And if you travel around the USA, you find differences between geographical areas. There is no meeting guidebook.

There is a story in AA about how a man was complaining to Bill Wilson ("Bill W.), a co-founder of AA. The man had gone to Saint Louis and told Bill W. that the people there weren't doing meetings "right".

Bill asked, "Are they sober?"

It may be apocryphal. But you get the idea.

[Tricky]

Originally Posted by Luke T.

There is a hell of a lot of laughter in AA meetings.

Yes there is. People even laugh at Cliché Guy's jokes. Lovers of black humor will feel right at home.

Originally Posted by Luke T.

But most of us are at the point that a little chanting and hand-pumping doesn't even come close to running us off. We are desperate.

I never noticed it that much. You could compare it to watching a ball game with an alumni group. There are some really gung-ho fans who cheer at every play, but that's okay. It doesn't distract from your enjoyment of the game.

Originally Posted by Luke T.

I wrote the OP in the full understanding that most of the people here who would be reading it are atheists, and in some cases hostile toward religiosity of any kind.

Yes, they would be. And I won't lie and say it isn't there. But as religions go, it is one of the better ones. It actually does what it promises, for an astonishingly high percentage of its adherents.

Originally Posted by Luke T.

I also realize there are other methods of getting sober that work for some people, and that AA doesn't work for everyone.

One thing is constant for all of them though, and that is desire. You really have to want to stop drinking. Apparently, I didn't, or I didn't want it enough. But if you really want it, then there are a number of ways to achieve your goal. AA is one of the best.

Originally Posted by Luke T.

But I know, too, that there are people out there who have tried everything else first like I did. Shrinks out the wazoo. Hospitalizations. Controlled drinking. Talk therapy. You name it.

AA works for me. Nothing else did. It is that simple.

Well, that's not everything, but I know that stories like yours are common in AA. If it were easy, then AA wouldn't be so big. However it is also true that you always find something in the last place you look.

Originally Posted by Luke T.

Sure, I could get pissed off at some of the religiosity and stay away. I could judge the people around me (and have) as a bunch of idiots, blowhards, hypocrites, and low-life's. I could be too smart for my own good once again, and then I would surely drink again.

Yep. It is a regular cross-section of humanity. That is why I gave the character list in the earlier post. Sure you will have to rub elbows with God-Is-My-Higher-Power, but I promise you that it is worth it if you get to know Sage.

Originally Posted by Luke T.

Point of fact, I would be dead without AA. And that is such a common truth in the rooms of AA, that is has become a cliché. Some people say it just to say it. Some people say it, like me, because it is true.

It is a cliché. Sometimes it is true. Sometimes it isn't. How can you be sure you would be dead? Medical? I know people who have been told by doctors that "you will die if you continue to drink", and yet they still drink and don't die. Probably shortens their life a good bit though.

Originally Posted by Luke T.

So for those who have tried everything else, or are just ready to try anything to get away from the hell they are living in, I wrote this topic.

Eyes wide open. That's all I'm trying to do. Help people walk in with both eyes wide open.

And I highly approve. As one who the program didn't (yet) work for (or I didn't work for it), I still strongly advocate for it, with eyes wide open. The lessons learned, especially about being honest with yourself, are worth the time spent.

My name is Tricky and I am an alcoholic. And not a sober one.

Or perhaps I should repeat one of Cliché Guys favorite jokes.

Q: What's the difference between an alcoholic and a drunk?
A: Us drunks don't have to go to those damned meetings.

[Luke T.]

Originally Posted by davefoc

We have somebody in the family who is being destroyed by alcohol and we have somebody in the family that was substantially harmed by alcohol who may be controlling her problem to some degree. I thought that the person who was being destroyed by alcohol was just going to end up completely destroying herself. I talked to her spouse about it and he said that she was absolutely refusing all intervention, treatment and was not going to change and he didn't think there was anything he could do about it.

There isn't anything anyone can do about an alcoholic who refuses treatment. Very frustrating for the friends and family who care about that person.

Quote:

But a few weeks later, it seems like she has taken some steps to control it, so maybe something will work out there. Does anybody have any thoughts on whether AA would be of benefit to her? I don't know if it is significant to the answer but her beliefs tend toward the woo woo side.

AA may be of benefit. They could check it out, see how it fits.

[Luke T.]

Originally Posted by Tricky

It is a cliché. Sometimes it is true. Sometimes it isn't. How can you be sure you would be dead? Medical? I know people who have been told by doctors that "you will die if you continue to drink", and yet they still drink and don't die. Probably shortens their life a good bit though.

I did not get to the point where alcohol was a physical threat to my life. It was causing me a lot of health problems, though I didn't realize it until I sobered up and a lot of them went away.

No, for me it was the suicide thing. If it wasn't for the active roles a couple of key figures in AA played in my life, I would have killed myself. And that was when I was just over a year sober.

I toyed with suicide all my life. But it got very real in 1996.

And in their own way, some head shrinks and some anti-depressants also served roles to save my life in the same period.

I was such a wreck that I basicallly had to burn to the ground first and start over. And then the combination of AA and professionals together helped me to rebuild myself from the ground up.

That one thought was one of many that kept me alive. "You don't have to die to start over." My own little lexicon in my head that I made myself. Sort of a joke on the reincarnation thing.

[Luke T.]

Originally Posted by 0oTITANo0

There is an AA guy at work. We hung out a bit untill he started really pressing me with religion and "witnessing". Ugh. That was the end of that.

There was a guy like that in my home group in Virginia. Always witnessing about Jesus. Very annoying.

One day, a newcomer asked for clarification about what his "higher power" was supposed to be. So this guy starts in about Jesus.

I have to admit I was feeling kind of ornery that day, and so I followed up by sharing it could be a goat if you wanted it to be.

One time in a jail meeting, one of the inmates started reading from the bible. I got one of the biggest laughs in my life when an oldtimer who went to the jail meetings with me stopped him and said, "That's not AA approved literature!" and made him stop reading it.

[AmateurScientist]

Originally Posted by Luke T.

I responded to you AS, but have decided what I wrote could be mis-used. So I will PM you.

Yes, you did (I wanted to confirm to everyone that Luke did, and as most of you know, he's a man of his word). Thank you, I appreciate your taking the time and effort to do so, and I appreciate your answer.

I understand your doing it by PM, and I'm totally cool with that.

AS

[AmateurScientist]

Originally Posted by El Greco

But what I said has nothing to do with the above. It's not a criticism, I even said that I could overlook religiosity. It's just that chanting would remind me of an Amway meeting or something. I don't know, maybe it's a cultural thing. I don't doubt that the way AA works is beneficial to many people. Personally I suspect that I'd certainly need all the companionship and encouragement but anything remotely resembling a "rite" would drive me away.

Ha ha. No, I think it crosses cultures quite well, El Greco. I had exactly the same reaction as you when I read Luke's mention of the chanting. I thought of Amway and cults and mindless cheerleading. I'm amazed that we're separated by 5,000 miles, but we both get the Amway thing readily.

AS

[El Greco]

Originally Posted by AmateurScientist

I'm amazed that we're separated by 5,000 miles, but we both get the Amway thing readily.

Well, then I guess that we have to thank Amway for breaking cultural barriers by creating such universal images of behaviour

[Abdul Alhazred]

Link back:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=64025

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Tricky

One thing is constant for all of them though, and that is desire. You really have to want to stop drinking. Apparently, I didn't, or I didn't want it enough. But if you really want it, then there are a number of ways to achieve your goal. AA is one of the best.

The desire to stop drinking and the inability to do so is the hallmark of addiction, or as W.C. Fields put it "Quiting is easy , i have done it hundreds or times."

But the thing I like a bout Rational recovery (although Mr. T is way over the top) is that it comes down to what he called the "Big Choice'. If you decide to quit drinking then you have to stop drinking, no matter what. You don't have to go to meetings, you don't have to believe in god, you have to avoid using.

So a person can have desire but not be ready to make that choice, it is a personal decision.

[zizzybaluba]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

The desire to stop drinking and the inability to do so is the hallmark of addiction, or as W.C. Fields put it "Quiting is easy , i have done it hundreds or times."

As much as I really hate to nitpick, that quote was by Mark Twain.

(Sorry, I'm a Twain fan)

[Luke T.]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

But the thing I like a bout Rational recovery (although Mr. T is way over the top) is that it comes down to what he called the "Big Choice'. If you decide to quit drinking then you have to stop drinking, no matter what. You don't have to go to meetings, you don't have to believe in god, you have to avoid using.

Easier said than done for an alcoholic.

Quote:

So a person can have desire but not be ready to make that choice, it is a personal decision.

I made the choice to quit drinking years before I actually succeeded in quitting drinking. And I was not able to do it alone.