Illuminate me.

[Brainache]

Lately I've heard many people speak about the Illuminati. I understand that they are some supposed secret society of powerful people who have been running the world in secret for a long time.

Is there anyone here who can tell me where the idea of the Illuminati originated?
Is it part of the Elders of Zion rubbish?

Are they some senior branch of Freemasons?

I know a lot of our more gullible CT friends believe they are pulling the strings of the world economy, but is there now or has there ever been such a group?

Personally I find the whole idea ludicrous.
As if there is only one little clique controlling every government and powerful corporation in the world.
As if any group of such powerful men could ever agree on anything.
Not to mention that if they are running the show, they are doing a pretty hopeless job at it.

[SwissSkeptic]

Here's a good start.

Originally Posted by skepdic

The Illuminati was a secret society in Bavaria in the late 18th century. They had a political agenda that included republicanism and abolition of monarchies, which they tried to institute by means of subterfuge, secrecy, and conspiracy, including the infiltration of other organizations. They fancied themselves to be "enlightened" but they had little success and were destroyed within fifteen years of their origin (Pipes 1997).

[Alareth]

Actually, the Freemasons are an extesion of the Illuminati as far as I understand. They are the highest publicly known level of the Illuminati organization.

[SwissSkeptic]

Also from Skeptic Dictionary

Originally Posted by skepdic

Freemasonry is not a secret society, cult, religion or anti-Christian sect, nor is it behind the Illuminati, although it is often accused of being such.

This is the first time I've heard that the Illuminati are behind the Freemasons, though. Who claims that?

[Alareth]

Originally Posted by SwissSkeptic

Also from Skeptic Dictionary



This is the first time I've heard that the Illuminati are behind the Freemasons, though. Who claims that?

I honestly don't recall where I heard the link. I think it was something to do with instances of joint iconograpy and symbolism, such as the All Seeing Eye on on the US dollar bill.

[brodski]

Originally Posted by Alareth

Actually, the Freemasons are an extesion of the Illuminati as far as I understand. They are the highest publicly known level of the Illuminati organization.

Seeing as the formation of the Freemasons predated the formation of the Illumnati by almost a century, this seems unlikely.

[Brainache]

I thought the Freemasons claimed to be a continuous line from ancient Egypt. Or is that just part of their own hype?

I remember after my dad died finding a little box with the apron and all that masonic stuff in it. I wanted to keep it to wear to fancey dress parties, but mum wouldn't let me.

[brodski]

Originally Posted by Brainache

I thought the Freemasons claimed to be a continuous line from ancient Egypt. Or is that just part of their own hype?

I remember after my dad died finding a little box with the apron and all that masonic stuff in it. I wanted to keep it to wear to fancey dress parties, but mum wouldn't let me.

Well, the first Grand Lodge was opened in England in 1717 (IIRC), A Scottish Lodge opened shortly afterwards, it then spread to the British colonies, there are no reliable records I know of which support a much earlier organisation, but who ever wanted to join a [new secret society (or even a society with secrets).

[SwissSkeptic]

Originally Posted by Alareth

I honestly don't recall where I heard the link. I think it was something to do with instances of joint iconograpy and symbolism, such as the All Seeing Eye on on the US dollar bill.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by that, CTists rarely let facts get in the way of a paranoid story. However, as brodski pointed out, the claim doesn't make much sense.

Originally Posted by Brainache

I thought the Freemasons claimed to be a continuous line from ancient Egypt. Or is that just part of their own hype?

According to the second link I posted in this thread "the origins of the Freemasons are disputed, but the first organized lodges date from 1717 in England."

[Beady]

Originally Posted by Brainache

I thought the Freemasons claimed to be a continuous line from ancient Egypt. Or is that just part of their own hype?

Supposedly, the Freemasons built Solomon's Temple.

For a really neat package that gets a lot of Sherlock Holmes wrong, but ties him, the British Government, Freemasonry, Solomon's Temple and Jack the Ripper all into a bundle, watch the movie, Murder by Decree.

[0oTITANo0]

Stuff like this always makes me laugh. Its so obvious that the CTs have no understanding of power dynamics at the highest levels of power in human society. How exactly are these people supposed to subtly control so many people? At high levels of power people compete fiercely against each other for position. From what specific platform of economic, political or military power do the Illuminati operate? How do they exert this apparently massive influence on the world? What reserve of power do they have that would force all the major players in the world to capitulate to their designs? This particular CT rests on the idea that out of sight behind closed doors all of the world leaders placidly line up in neat rows and do as they are told. Have you been to a PTA meeting lately? My friends can't even agree on where to have lunch and they are a pretty laid back group. Can you honestly believe that all of the aggressively ambitious leaders of the world operate on the will of the Illuminati? Thee is a lot more at stake than Roast Beef vs. Turkey...

[Dave1001]

Originally Posted by 0oTITANo0

Thee is a lot more at stake than Roast Beef vs. Turkey...

How about Turkey vs. Chile?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

http://www.amazon.com/Illuminatus-Tr...e=UTF8&s=books

[Beady]

Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade

http://www.amazon.com/Illuminatus-Tr...e=UTF8&s=books

It's the kind of book you'll like, if you like that kind of book. Never did figure out what all the graphic sex had to do with anything; it seemed to get in the way of an otherwise fascinating plot.

[G-K-4]

Originally Posted by Brainache

Lately I've heard many people speak about the Illuminati. ... Is there anyone here who can tell me where the idea of the Illuminati originated?

From what we can tell now, it seems that a group calling itself "the Illuminati" actually did exist very briefly in late 18th-Century Bavaria. They were a society that believed in rationalist ideas of the Enlightenment, ideas which were circulating at the time but still avant garde. They only lasted a few years before being broken up by internal discord and external authoritarian pressure.

Years after they were broken up, the Illuminati became a bogeyman for those people who were frightened by the French Revolution and what it meant. They claimed that the Illuminati were behind the revolution and were an unholy threat to proper ecclesiastic and aristocratic authority. These accusations have never stopped, partly because there are still people who oppose the Enlightenment.

Here are a few sources about the history of this legend:
http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/masons.html (short summary)

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/illuminati.html (long article)
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-mason...gy_secret.html (long article)

Originally Posted by Brainache

Is it part of the Elders of Zion rubbish? Are they some senior branch of Freemasons?

No. But a "connection" was instantly invented when the Protocols hoax was published in 1905. A Russian "mystic" published an edition of his autobiography that year and made a connection between the Freemasons and the "Elders". (This is an example of the ever-expanding universe of conspiracism. Every new legend is incorporated into the greater mythology.)

To read more about this mystic and the true story behind the Protocols hoax, see: http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/protocols.html
And see Will Eisner's final book, The Plot, which tells the real story and literally shows how the Protocols was fabricated from Maurice Joly's Dialogue aux Enfers entre Machiavel et Montesquieu.

The Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon has a FAQ on their website. It has further debunking of Illuminati and Freemason conspiracy legends, as well as CFR, the Trilateral Commision, the Bilderbergers, and some more obscure "controversies" that I've never even heard of before.

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-mason...sonry_faq.html

But of course, the other side would expect the Freemasons to deny everything. (Never mind that this particular site is by some Canadians, who are thus mostly harmless.)

Originally Posted by Brainache

I understand that they [the Illuminati] are some supposed secret society of powerful people who have been running the world in secret for a long time.

But they haven't been around as long as the twelve-foot shapeshifting lizards from the constellation Draco! Let me introduce you to Mr. Icke.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_i...lian_humanoids

And before anyone asks, no I am not a freemason, or a regular mason, or even a brickworker. But I did grow up playing with Legos.

[G-K-4]

Originally Posted by Beady

Never did figure out what all the graphic sex had to do with anything....

1.) Wilson and Shea were associate editors at a magazine called Playboy. (And it was paranoid letters from readers which gave them their ideas.)

2.) It was the late Sixties. 'Nuff said.

SOURCE:
http://www.rawilsonfans.com/articles/Prometheus.htm
via
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illumin...ishing_history

Which reminds me, I've been wondering what the Discordians think of the new name for 2003 UB313. Anyone know?

[Dave1001]

To be fair enough, I doubt anyone knows what's at the very top of the human hierarchy. Anyway, are self-made decabillionaires substantively different than reptillian overlords? Sumner Redstone, Rupert Murdoch, Warren Buffet, etc. are all certainly super elites (in every sense of the word) that aspire to contol our minds and the world's markets. At most the only substantive gaps between their actual current power and the powers ascibed to superelites by CT's are fragmentation, mortality, and the limits of current technology.

[Beady]

Originally Posted by Dave1001

To be fair enough, I doubt anyone knows what's at the very top of the human hierarchy. Anyway, are self-made decabillionaires substantively different than reptillian overlords? Sumner Redstone, Rupert Murdoch, Warren Buffet, etc. are all certainly super elites (in every sense of the word) that aspire to contol our minds and the world's markets. At most the only substantive gaps between their actual current power and the powers ascibed to superelites by CT's are fragmentation, mortality, and the limits of current technology.

Do you get away from the computer, much?

[Dave1001]

Originally Posted by Beady

Do you get away from the computer, much?

Quite a bit, actually

But when I'm at home or in class, the computer's usually on and I'm back and forth pecking on it.

[Victor Meldrew]

Just been busy "illuminating" myself, by doing a search on yahoo for Illuminati mind control (don't ask...it's a long story). Seems there is a guy called Fritz Springmeier and his sidekick Cisco Wheeler (who was a Monarch slave in their cult) spouting out loads of info, that on the surface (names, dates, places etc) seems believable. (Apart from facts like 1000's of babies were kept in wire cages in a airplane hangar....any parent would know that even just a few minutes of being with 1000's of screaming babies would drive you RIGHT OUT OF THERE.....)

But it can't be. Unless all of you are really Illuminati programmers and are rubbishing it all because you don't want the TRUTH to come out.....???!!

apparently Elvis was a slave, as was Marilyn Monroe, and people like Madonna.

Oh, and watching The Wizard of Oz and certain Disney films is dangerous. (They were made ON PURPOSE to programme people, you know.....)

Hmmmm, very interesting, and would love to find out more....but i have to go and make a cup of coffee for my master....must make coffee....must make coffee......must make coffee.....(whoops, I must have watched a disney film again!)

Victor
("I don't believe it!")

[Donal]

There have actrually been several groups calling themselves "Illuminati", most of which weren't at all related to each other. It is usually some group that had some information that they believed was special. The were a light or beacon for a world in darkness.

[dirtywick]

Did anyone here read any of Dan Brown's books (Angels and Demons, The Da Vinci Code)? He gets into his own wacky interpretation of the Illuminati and Masons. He says that the Illuminati was wiped out by the Catholic Church but sprouted the Masons, and their entire purpose was to find the Holy Grail and expose some great lie of the Church. He claims that a lot of prominent figures in history from Galileo to Isaac Newton were grandmasters.

I believe there's even a forward saying these organizations are real even though the book is fiction. The books, mostly Da Vinci Code, created quite a splash and sold tens of millions of copies, even prompted debunking books/pamphlets from the church. That might be partially why you hear so much about it.

[G-K-4]

Brainache (and everyone),

Here is another article that mentions the Illuminati, but puts that and other conspiracy theories into a long historical context:

http://www.publiceye.org/apocalyptic...vils_1-01.html

This is only one section of a larger work called "Dances with Devils". Click the table of contenst link marked "TOC" to see it all.

By the way, while looking for that I found that Texe Marrs believes in the Illuminati. Isn't he one of those 9/11 CTers, too?
http://www.publiceye.org/media/hardrit.html

Also, if you are interested in a responsible, sociological approach to how power and elites work in human society, you mgiht be interested in G. William Domhoff's work. I have only read a little of his work so far, but he seems to have his feet on the ground. he cetainly rules out conspiracies as hidden engines of world history.
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/index.html

[Oliver]

You may ask our own forum Freemason, too:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=64460