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Skeptic Ginger · 23rd September 2006, 12:46 AM

Event locations

I assume you've been hearing about this. Thought I'd mention it and encourage participation if you are willing and able.

Pardalis · 23rd September 2006, 12:49 AM

How exactly are you going to "drive out" the Bush administration?

andyandy · 23rd September 2006, 01:06 AM

Isn't a protest which core aim is to over-throw the current government somewhat anti-democratic? Maybe they should take some tips from the Thais....

Marquis de Carabas · 23rd September 2006, 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

How exactly are you going to "drive out" the Bush administration?

People don't go to protests to attempt the stated goal of the protest, but to get laid.

HeyLeroy · 23rd September 2006, 01:36 AM

Anarchy just ain't my bag.

andyandy · 23rd September 2006, 02:34 AM

sample FAQ (a follow up after they've "established" that Bush is a fascist)

Quote:

Q: But it's not fascism until I'm affected and besides we still have free speech, no one is putting people in concentration camps. People in this country won't move unless they are directly affected by something like the draft.

A: Denial, Denial, Denial, then freak-out & capitulate because it's too late. How many people in history have done this - passively hoped to wait it out, only to get swallowed up by a horror they never imagined nor wished on anyone?A lot of people remember the famous statement of Martin Niemoller, the German clergyman who resisted Hitler, but too late to make a real difference. After the war, Niemoller said, "First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing; then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I said nothing. . ." and so on down the line, ending with: "then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to stand up."Niemoller didn't make his statement and sum up experience so that people could REPEAT it. He was trying to tell us that people like me sat around in denial and had the attitude that as long as it wasn't happening to me, it wasn't happening. People like me could have made a difference, and there were thousands of us, but we kept trying to accommodate to what was going on, because "if it wasn't happening to me it wasn't that bad." Niemoller said that the people who knew should have made huge sacrifices because it would have made a difference. He was saying, "If I could turn back the clock to '33, I would have stood with the ones under attack, I would have sounded the alarm, I would have stood up and resisted."

Today we are sitting in a position analogous to that of Martin Niemoller in 1933. Are we going to do what he did, or what he said he should have done? Put yourself back in time. In 1933 Hitler was not the Hitler of 1943 -- he had not put the Jews in concentration camps yet and he disguised his anti-Semitic agenda. What if when Hitler first came to power, people came to you and said, "He's Hitler," and you said "You're too shrill. You're too extreme. You're going to turn people off." Which Niemoller do we want to be? The one who went along, or the one who said this is what I should have done?

Check out more lunacy http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?o...=2160&Itemid=2

Cheesejoff · 23rd September 2006, 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by andyandy

Isn't a protest which core aim is to over-throw the current government somewhat anti-democratic? Maybe they should take some tips from the Thais....

Not entirely. Democracy is the rule of the people, and if the people do not want the Bush regime, they can protest against it.

Of course, such an overthrowal would be illegal, or going against the rules of democracy, but not against the spirit of democracy.

Admittedly there is the problem that the majority of people must be against the Bush regime and Bush must actually be a fascist, both of which are shaky conditions at best.

egslim · 23rd September 2006, 03:33 AM

On the other hand, any movement that encourages wider popular participation with the government is a good thing in my book. Indifference towards the government is always dangerous.

WildCat · 23rd September 2006, 05:51 AM

Ah yes, this looks like a good time! At least the one last year in San Francisco was. Join forces and rub elbows w/ communists, paranoid 9/11 conspiracy theorists, and anarchists! Fire bomb a newspaper office! Looks like a swell time.

This takes place on a weekday though, no problem for the unemployed societal leeches that make up the bulk of rally participants but may affect your schedule. Bonus points if you wear your Che Guevara shirt.

Mephisto · 23rd September 2006, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

This takes place on a weekday though, no problem for the unemployed societal leeches that make up the bulk of rally participants but may affect your schedule. Bonus points if you wear your Che Guevara shirt.

Does this mean we won't meet any Halliburton execs at the rally?

WildCat · 23rd September 2006, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by Mephisto

Does this mean we won't meet any Halliburton execs at the rally?

Of course not. They send their lackeys there to identify the people who will be sent to their FEMA death camps.

shemp · 23rd September 2006, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

How exactly are you going to "drive out" the Bush administration?

Maybe they'll dump a bag of skunks in the White House?

Mephisto · 23rd September 2006, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Of course not. They send their lackeys there to identify the people who will be sent to their FEMA death camps.

FEMA Death Camps, huh?

Where you'll be herded into "showers" where you'll die of either old age or a natural disaster.

The Central Scrutinizer · 23rd September 2006, 06:54 AM

I can't make October 5th. I've set that day aside to rotate my lightbulbs and organize my sock drawer.

Damn the bad luck.

Dragonrock · 23rd September 2006, 07:00 AM

I wonder how widespread this is? How many people really know about it? Are there going to be enough people to make anyone notice? Or is it going to be like the dozens of "pump-strikes" or "boycott AOL" movements that no one paid attention to?

ARubberChickenWithAPulley · 23rd September 2006, 07:48 AM

Quote:

I wonder how widespread this is? How many people really know about it? Are there going to be enough people to make anyone notice? Or is it going to be like the dozens of "pump-strikes" or "boycott AOL" movements that no one paid attention to?

Probably not like those. I think it will be more like the dozens of anti-war protests that nobody paid attention to.

Beerina · 23rd September 2006, 08:05 AM

So let's take stock of where we are now:

- US having a tough time in Iraq

- North Korea building missiles and looking for nukes

- Iran building missles, shipping them to terrorists, and looking for nukes

- Iranian leader functionally identical to Hitler in motivation and rhetoric

Yes, let's bitch at Bush, calling him "The Devil" because he stirred up a hornet's nest of murdering savages who would be happy to just have us leave them alone so they could lord over each other their way, denying women many rights and maybe even edumication. I mean, it might be a disincentive if they knew they might be called to justice some day and, oh, I don't know, go on trial for murdering 186,000 Kurds? Horrible, horrible U. S.

Has the US handled Iraq properly (if it's even possible), and things been largely over at the end of the "major combat operations", nobody would be driving idiocy like this protest. The protest is protesting the wrong thing, a chimera that doesn't even really exist.

AmateurScientist · 23rd September 2006, 08:26 AM

I can't wait for the World Can't Wait protests. I want to have one NOW!

I'm having my own private one right here, in my home office. I'm drinking a Coke and eating a Big Mac and wearing my Nikes as an ironic protest against BushCo/Halliburton/The Beast/666.

If I were to attend a real WCW rally, and Gosh, I'll have to check my calendar to see if I can, I think that Truth or Consequences, NM might be the venue with the greatest significance. I can't wait to find out the consequences of the truth of being a idiot idealist who thinks leaving work for 15 minutes and milling about with a bunch of like minded idealistic, smelly, unemployed idiots screaming about Bush is going to change anything.

Have fun, Skeptigirl. Go!

AS

Cheesejoff · 23rd September 2006, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

So let's take stock of where we are now:

- US having a tough time in Iraq

- North Korea building missiles and looking for nukes

- Iran building missles, shipping them to terrorists, and looking for nukes

- Iranian leader functionally identical to Hitler in motivation and rhetoric

Yes, let's bitch at Bush, calling him "The Devil" because he stirred up a hornet's nest of murdering savages who would be happy to just have us leave them alone so they could lord over each other their way, denying women many rights and maybe even edumication.

Yes indeed, as there are many dictatorships around the world but only the one's with large amounts of oil ever get invaded.

Badger · 23rd September 2006, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Cheesejoff

Yes indeed, as there are many dictatorships around the world but only the one's with large amounts of oil ever get invaded.

Can you explain to me why they're not invading my province? I mean, we have more oil than the whole middle east, put together. All they gotta do is separate it from sand. There's not many of us around, either.

Could it be the mosquitos protecting us? The muskeg? The chilly winters? Please, educate me.

In my opinion, your statement is crap.

RandFan · 23rd September 2006, 10:45 AM

Cartman: Hippies.They're everywhere. They wanna save the earth, but all they do is smoke pot and smell bad.

Officer Barbrady: You can't just lock 63 people in your basement.
Cartman: They're not people, they're hippies!

Cartman: I hate hippies! I mean, the way they always talk about "protectin' the earth" and then drive around in cars that get poor gas mileage and wear those stupid bracelets - I hate 'em! I wanna kick 'em in the nuts!

senorpogo · 23rd September 2006, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Q: But it's not fascism until I'm affected and besides we still have free speech, no one is putting people in concentration camps. People in this country won't move unless they are directly affected by something like the draft.

I love that the question isn't a question.

Ziggurat · 23rd September 2006, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Cheesejoff

Not entirely. Democracy is the rule of the people, and if the people do not want the Bush regime, they can protest against it.

Of course, such an overthrowal would be illegal, or going against the rules of democracy, but not against the spirit of democracy.

I know democracy often gets used as a shorthand for republican government (not Republican as in the party, mind you), I do it myself quite frequently. But there's a difference, and the difference actually matters quite a bit. Pure, unadulterated democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner. So in that sense, yes, a popular overthrow of government would be in the "spirit" of democracy. But it's NOT in the spirit of our actual political traditions: constitutional republicanism.

But of course, such an overthrow isn't the point. Hell, the point isn't even to change anything. The real point of this protest is so that the protesters can feel good about themselves and confirm to each other that they hold the proper views.

corplinx · 23rd September 2006, 11:08 AM

Looks like I'm getting the super soaker out of the closet for some hippie hunting on Oct 5.

Cheesejoff · 23rd September 2006, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Badger

Can you explain to me why they're not invading my province? I mean, we have more oil than the whole middle east, put together. All they gotta do is separate it from sand. There's not many of us around, either.

Could it be the mosquitos protecting us? The muskeg? The chilly winters? Please, educate me.

In my opinion, your statement is crap.

Assuming you live in Canada, when did you become a dictatorship?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I know democracy often gets used as a shorthand for republican government (not Republican as in the party, mind you), I do it myself quite frequently. But there's a difference, and the difference actually matters quite a bit. Pure, unadulterated democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner. So in that sense, yes, a popular overthrow of government would be in the "spirit" of democracy. But it's NOT in the spirit of our actual political traditions: constitutional republicanism.

True, hence it's a conflict with no real right answer.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

But of course, such an overthrow isn't the point. Hell, the point isn't even to change anything. The real point of this protest is so that the protesters can feel good about themselves and confirm to each other that they hold the proper views.

That is also true, protests generally only benefit protestors.

Originally Posted by WildCat

Join forces and rub elbows w/ communists, paranoid 9/11 conspiracy theorists, and anarchists! Fire bomb a newspaper office! Looks like a swell time.

Originally Posted by corplinx

Looks like I'm getting the super soaker out of the closet for some hippie hunting on Oct 5.

Commies, conspiracy theorists, anarchists and hippies? You must be running out of stereotypes pretty fast!

Badger · 23rd September 2006, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Cheesejoff

Assuming you live in Canada, when did you become a dictatorship?

That could be debated.

Anyway, my point is "You think Bush would go and fight an expensive war a half world away for oil when he doesn't have to. Explain to me why he would do that."

AmateurScientist · 23rd September 2006, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Badger

That could be debated.

Anyway, my point is "You think Bush would go and fight an expensive war a half world away for oil when he doesn't have to. Explain to me why he would do that."

Don't be so complacent, my Canuck friend. I'm digging out my old army BDUs, my boot knife, and an M-16, and me and my redneck buddies are coming for ya. Lock up the goats!

AS

andyandy · 23rd September 2006, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Cheesejoff

Commies, conspiracy theorists, anarchists and hippies? You must be running out of stereotypes pretty fast!

Quote:

Q: But aren't there communists in World Can't Wait?

A: Yeah, there are. Supporters of the Revolutionary Communist Party helped initiate it. They're in it because they think it's absolutely urgent to get rid of this regime, that it would both lift a huge burden from the world and would also give people a sense of their own potential power, and they think all that would open up avenues to get to the kind of society they want. Same as a whole lot of other people in World Can't Wait which, by the way, includes Greens, Christians, Republicans, anarchists, Muslims, Jews, feminists, Democrats, pacifists, and people who claim no affiliation also think it's urgent to drive out the Bush Regime and also think it can help lead to bigger changes that they want in society, coming from their own viewpoints.

Commies, anarchists and tree huggers sounds about right

senorpogo · 23rd September 2006, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Cheesejoff

Commies, conspiracy theorists, anarchists and hippies? You must be running out of stereotypes pretty fast!

Have you checked out the pics in the link supplied by WildCat? Are you suggesting that there weren't communists, conspiracy theorists, and anarchists at the event?

Badger · 23rd September 2006, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by AmateurScientist

Don't be so complacent, my Canuck friend. I'm digging out my old army BDUs, my boot knife, and an M-16, and me and my redneck buddies are coming for ya. Lock up the goats!

AS

Them's fightin words! Thanks for the warning because it gives me enough time to stock up on booze and kubasa, and you and your redneck buddies won't stand a chance. Canadians are like the Borg. One taste of our booze and BBQ Kubie and you'll be begging to be assimilated.

Good thought on bringing the knife. It'll help you guys cut up the kubasa.

You'll have to take your chances with the goats, though.

RandFan · 23rd September 2006, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by AmateurScientist

Lock up the goats!

That's hot!

andyandy · 23rd September 2006, 11:37 AM

This website is pure gold

Quote:

Q: Well, you have some good points, but I think you go too far. This reference to Hitler in your Call - things aren't that bad yet, and you're going to lose people. It's too strident.

A: After enumerating the many crimes and criminal policies of the Bush Regime, our Call notes that "people look at all this and think of Hitler -- and they are right to do so. The Bush regime is setting out to radically remake society very quickly, in a fascist way, for generations to come."

The question is, is that true or not? Are people thinking of Hitler? Yes, they are. Who hasn't heard that analogy come up in conversation? Are they wrong to do so? Is it wrong to sound the alarm - to point to the ways in which Bush has actually begun to remake society in, yes, a fascist direction, to point to the speed of this, and to point to the logical conclusion of the whole thing - unless stopped? Would it be more truthful to say that "people think of Hitler, but they are wrong to do so" - that the "normalization" of torture and indefinite detention, the empowerment of religious fanatics, the pervasive "above the law" surveillance and suppression of dissent and critical thinking, the military invasion of three countries (going on four) and the blithe reassurance that the deaths and suffering resulting from this are merely "the birth pangs of a new Middle East"? Would it be more truthful to say that all these are mere passing phenomena, of no larger significance or threat, expressing no directional change in society whatsoever?That has to be the point of departure. Not "is it strident", but is it TRUE? And let's face it -- this is a very "inconvenient" truth. It is hard for people to face up to the fact that not only CAN it happen here; it's going on right before our eyes. And it is hard for people to face up to the level of responsibility, to be honest, that this presents us with.

Bush is Hitler! try to overthrow him or you will have the blood of 6 million jews on your hands! jew killer!

RandFan · 23rd September 2006, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by andyandy

Bush is Hitler! try to overthrow him or you will have the blood of 6 million jews on your hands! jew killer!

I'm beginning to think that skeptigirs's skepticism is rather narrowly focused.

Cheesejoff · 23rd September 2006, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Badger

That could be debated.

Anyway, my point is "You think Bush would go and fight an expensive war a half world away for oil when he doesn't have to. Explain to me why he would do that."

Simply because I can think of no other reason for the war to take place. Iraq had no links to terrorists - in fact, Saddam actually fought against Iran at one point - and they didn't have any WMD's. Many other countries have dictatorships and poor human rights records, such as China which the US actually trades with.

So although I'm not certain about the actual motive, oil seems the most likely to me.

Originally Posted by andyandy

Commies, anarchists and tree huggers sounds about right

Originally Posted by senorpogo

Have you checked out the pics in the link supplied by WildCat? Are you suggesting that there weren't communists, conspiracy theorists, and anarchists at the event?

These groups were indeed present at the event, but why single them out when Democrats and Republicans are also present?

senorpogo · 23rd September 2006, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by andyandy

This website is pure gold

They have a myspace account.
www.myspace.com/wcwnational

Way to fight the machine.

RandFan · 23rd September 2006, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Cheesejoff

Simply because I can think of no other reason for the war to take place.

Right or wrong many believed that deposing Saddam and installing a democracy could bring stability and a seachange to the Mideast. Now you can argue that the idea was wrong headed and was doomed to failure as George H. W. Bush argued following Gulf War I but it is stall A reason.

You need to think a little harder.

senorpogo · 23rd September 2006, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Cheesejoff

These groups were indeed present at the event, but why single them out when Democrats and Republicans are also present?

To stress that the protest contains elements of an extreme political nature? That's my guess.

What's wrong with that?

Badger · 23rd September 2006, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Cheesejoff

Simply because I can think of no other reason for the war to take place. Iraq had no links to terrorists - in fact, Saddam actually fought against Iran at one point - and they didn't have any WMD's. Many other countries have dictatorships and poor human rights records, such as China which the US actually trades with.

So although I'm not certain about the actual motive, oil seems the most likely to me.

That seems to me like it's pretty shaky support for your proposition, but thanks for clearing that up.

andyandy · 23rd September 2006, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Cheesejoff

These groups were indeed present at the event, but why single them out when Democrats and Republicans are also present?

You reckon a lot of democrats and republicans were there? They must not have read the small print of the website's aims if they did turn up - seeing as the World Can't Wait is both anti-republican and anti-democratic.

Quote:

Our Call tells it like it is: "There is not going to be some savior from the Democratic Party. This whole idea of putting our hopes and energies into 'leaders' who tell us to seek common ground with fascists and religious fanatics is proving every day to be a disaster, and actually serves to demobilize people."

Quote:

Q: But stepping outside the normal political process seems scary.

A: Right now the "normal political process" and where it's heading is itself the scariest thing on the planet. The "normal political process" has for some years now been nothing but a "rolling coup," one with disastrous consequences for the whole world. The "normal political process" has given us electoral charades and suffocating terms of debate ("how best do we fight the 'war on terror'?") and a society locked in denial, despair, and political paralysis.

The choice before us is mass political opposition and yes, political upheaval to halt all this, or the continuation of the current disastrous direction under this regime. To go along with the latter (the continuation of the current regime and the current course) in an attempt to avoid the former (the necessary political upheaval) is in fact to become complicit with the great crimes already carried out, and still greater crimes being prepared, by this regime.

the movement wants political change outside the current political system - so i don't see much room for either democrats or republicans to participate. As such I don't think it's especially unfair to assume that those who want change within the politcal process are not prominent in such a movement.

Ziggurat · 23rd September 2006, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Cheesejoff

Simply because I can think of no other reason for the war to take place.

One problem with this proposition (in addition to those given above) is that invading "for oil" does not actually specify the reason. Here are a few different alternative reasons to invade a country with oil, all of which fall under "for oil":

1) to gain control of the oil for ourselves
2) to remove control of the oil from Saddam
3) to prevent a third party from gaining control of the oil
4) to gain access to the oil for ourselves
5) to prevent access to the oil for a third party

Now, why might dictatorships with oil keep getting invaded, as you contended? Well, (1) isn't sufficient, because why not just invade Canada? (3) and (5) aren't generalizable or applicable to Iraq, and (4) has never really been a problem if we didn't WANT to prevent access (sanctions). So that leaves (2) as a pretty good contender. And it makes sense: oil resources make a dictator a lot more dangerous, and they also make such dictators essentially immune to economic (ie, non-military) forms of pressure.

So even assuming that this really IS all about oil, well, that alone tells us much less than is often assumed.

23rd September 2006, 12:46 AM	#1
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	The World Can't Wait mass protest reminder Event locations I assume you've been hearing about this. Thought I'd mention it and encourage participation if you are willing and able.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

23rd September 2006, 01:06 AM	#3
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,213	Isn't a protest which core aim is to over-throw the current government somewhat anti-democratic? Maybe they should take some tips from the Thais....
	__________________ "Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks."

23rd September 2006, 01:15 AM	#4
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,110	Originally Posted by Pardalis How exactly are you going to "drive out" the Bush administration? People don't go to protests to attempt the stated goal of the protest, but to get laid.
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

23rd September 2006, 01:36 AM	#5
HeyLeroy Vegan Cannibal Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Going off the rails on the Crazy Train. Posts: 5,565	Anarchy just ain't my bag.
	__________________ Cows are in large numbers, and do not serve any other purpose, other than to eat grass, and moo -- makaya325 I ♥ my kids. I ♠ my dog. I ♣ my baby Harp Seal.

23rd September 2006, 02:34 AM	#6
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,213	sample FAQ (a follow up after they've "established" that Bush is a fascist) Quote: Q: But it's not fascism until I'm affected and besides we still have free speech, no one is putting people in concentration camps. People in this country won't move unless they are directly affected by something like the draft. A: Denial, Denial, Denial, then freak-out & capitulate because it's too late. How many people in history have done this - passively hoped to wait it out, only to get swallowed up by a horror they never imagined nor wished on anyone?A lot of people remember the famous statement of Martin Niemoller, the German clergyman who resisted Hitler, but too late to make a real difference. After the war, Niemoller said, "First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing; then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I said nothing. . ." and so on down the line, ending with: "then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to stand up."Niemoller didn't make his statement and sum up experience so that people could REPEAT it. He was trying to tell us that people like me sat around in denial and had the attitude that as long as it wasn't happening to me, it wasn't happening. People like me could have made a difference, and there were thousands of us, but we kept trying to accommodate to what was going on, because "if it wasn't happening to me it wasn't that bad." Niemoller said that the people who knew should have made huge sacrifices because it would have made a difference. He was saying, "If I could turn back the clock to '33, I would have stood with the ones under attack, I would have sounded the alarm, I would have stood up and resisted." Today we are sitting in a position analogous to that of Martin Niemoller in 1933. Are we going to do what he did, or what he said he should have done? Put yourself back in time. In 1933 Hitler was not the Hitler of 1943 -- he had not put the Jews in concentration camps yet and he disguised his anti-Semitic agenda. What if when Hitler first came to power, people came to you and said, "He's Hitler," and you said "You're too shrill. You're too extreme. You're going to turn people off." Which Niemoller do we want to be? The one who went along, or the one who said this is what I should have done? Check out more lunacy http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?o...=2160&Itemid=2
	__________________ "Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks." Last edited by andyandy; 23rd September 2006 at 02:36 AM.

23rd September 2006, 12:49 AM	#2
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	How exactly are you going to "drive out" the Bush administration?

23rd September 2006, 03:15 AM	#7
Cheesejoff Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 216	Originally Posted by andyandy Isn't a protest which core aim is to over-throw the current government somewhat anti-democratic? Maybe they should take some tips from the Thais.... Not entirely. Democracy is the rule of the people, and if the people do not want the Bush regime, they can protest against it. Of course, such an overthrowal would be illegal, or going against the rules of democracy, but not against the spirit of democracy. Admittedly there is the problem that the majority of people must be against the Bush regime and Bush must actually be a fascist, both of which are shaky conditions at best.
Cheesejoff Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 216

23rd September 2006, 03:33 AM	#8
egslim Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,856	On the other hand, any movement that encourages wider popular participation with the government is a good thing in my book. Indifference towards the government is always dangerous.
egslim Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,856

23rd September 2006, 05:51 AM	#9
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,457	Ah yes, this looks like a good time! At least the one last year in San Francisco was. Join forces and rub elbows w/ communists, paranoid 9/11 conspiracy theorists, and anarchists! Fire bomb a newspaper office! Looks like a swell time. This takes place on a weekday though, no problem for the unemployed societal leeches that make up the bulk of rally participants but may affect your schedule. Bonus points if you wear your Che Guevara shirt.

23rd September 2006, 06:04 AM	#10
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by WildCat This takes place on a weekday though, no problem for the unemployed societal leeches that make up the bulk of rally participants but may affect your schedule. Bonus points if you wear your Che Guevara shirt. Does this mean we won't meet any Halliburton execs at the rally?
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

23rd September 2006, 06:07 AM	#11
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,457	Originally Posted by Mephisto Does this mean we won't meet any Halliburton execs at the rally? Of course not. They send their lackeys there to identify the people who will be sent to their FEMA death camps.
	Last edited by WildCat; 23rd September 2006 at 06:09 AM.

23rd September 2006, 06:39 AM	#12
shemp Timothy, Timothy, where on earth did you go? Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: trapped in a cave-in with Joe Posts: 12,967	Originally Posted by Pardalis How exactly are you going to "drive out" the Bush administration? Maybe they'll dump a bag of skunks in the White House?
	__________________ Church on Sunday, sleep and nod Tryin' to duck the wrath of God Preacher's fillin' us with fright Tryin' to tell us what he thinks is right He really got to be some kind of nut (I can't use it!) Tryin' to make it real - compared to what?

23rd September 2006, 06:54 AM	#13
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by WildCat Of course not. They send their lackeys there to identify the people who will be sent to their FEMA death camps. FEMA Death Camps, huh? Where you'll be herded into "showers" where you'll die of either old age or a natural disaster.
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

23rd September 2006, 06:54 AM	#14
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,573	I can't make October 5th. I've set that day aside to rotate my lightbulbs and organize my sock drawer. Damn the bad luck.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

23rd September 2006, 07:00 AM	#15
Dragonrock Militant Elvisian Tacoist Join Date: May 2002 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 9,859	I wonder how widespread this is? How many people really know about it? Are there going to be enough people to make anyone notice? Or is it going to be like the dozens of "pump-strikes" or "boycott AOL" movements that no one paid attention to?
	__________________ ...it rings a bell in my head that just don't chime...--pillory There is no God but the Great Taco In The Sky and Elvis is his prophet.

23rd September 2006, 07:48 AM	#16
ARubberChickenWithAPulley Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kentucky Posts: 2,152	Quote: I wonder how widespread this is? How many people really know about it? Are there going to be enough people to make anyone notice? Or is it going to be like the dozens of "pump-strikes" or "boycott AOL" movements that no one paid attention to? Probably not like those. I think it will be more like the dozens of anti-war protests that nobody paid attention to.

23rd September 2006, 08:05 AM	#17
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	So let's take stock of where we are now: - US having a tough time in Iraq - North Korea building missiles and looking for nukes - Iran building missles, shipping them to terrorists, and looking for nukes - Iranian leader functionally identical to Hitler in motivation and rhetoric Yes, let's bitch at Bush, calling him "The Devil" *because he stirred up a hornet's nest of murdering savages* who would be happy to just have us leave them alone so they could lord over each other their way, denying women many rights and maybe even edumication. I mean, it might be a disincentive if they knew they might be called to justice some day and, oh, I don't know, go on trial for murdering 186,000 Kurds? Horrible, horrible U. S. Has the US handled Iraq properly (if it's even possible), and things been largely over at the end of the "major combat operations", nobody would be driving idiocy like this protest. The protest is protesting the wrong thing, a chimera that doesn't even really exist.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? Last edited by Beerina; 23rd September 2006 at 08:08 AM.

23rd September 2006, 08:26 AM	#18
AmateurScientist JREF Kid Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,325	I can't wait for the World Can't Wait protests. I want to have one NOW! I'm having my own private one right here, in my home office. I'm drinking a Coke and eating a Big Mac and wearing my Nikes as an ironic protest against BushCo/Halliburton/The Beast/666. If I were to attend a real WCW rally, and Gosh, I'll have to check my calendar to see if I can, I think that Truth or Consequences, NM might be the venue with the greatest significance. I can't wait to find out the consequences of the truth of being a idiot idealist who thinks leaving work for 15 minutes and milling about with a bunch of like minded idealistic, smelly, unemployed idiots screaming about Bush is going to change anything. Have fun, Skeptigirl. Go! AS
	Last edited by AmateurScientist; 23rd September 2006 at 08:34 AM.

23rd September 2006, 09:55 AM	#19
Cheesejoff Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 216	Originally Posted by Beerina So let's take stock of where we are now: - US having a tough time in Iraq - North Korea building missiles and looking for nukes - Iran building missles, shipping them to terrorists, and looking for nukes - Iranian leader functionally identical to Hitler in motivation and rhetoric Yes, let's bitch at Bush, calling him "The Devil" *because he stirred up a hornet's nest of murdering savages* who would be happy to just have us leave them alone so they could lord over each other their way, denying women many rights and maybe even edumication. Yes indeed, as there are many dictatorships around the world but only the one's with large amounts of oil ever get invaded.
Cheesejoff Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 216

23rd September 2006, 10:08 AM	#20
Badger Member of the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: In the country Posts: 3,441	Originally Posted by Cheesejoff Yes indeed, as there are many dictatorships around the world but only the one's with large amounts of oil ever get invaded. Can you explain to me why they're not invading my province? I mean, we have more oil than the whole middle east, put together. All they gotta do is separate it from sand. There's not many of us around, either. Could it be the mosquitos protecting us? The muskeg? The chilly winters? Please, educate me. In my opinion, your statement is crap.
	__________________ www.skepticalcommunity.com "You're a soundbite waiting to happen." (Steve Antle) "You are O.D'ing on drama flakes. Please stop." (kookbreaker) "You had me at bamboo worms." - (GeekGoddess) "I power-barfed for so long that I'm pretty sure I lost a few inches in height and maybe even went back in time a little. " (negativ)

23rd September 2006, 10:45 AM	#21
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,955	Cartman: Hippies.They're everywhere. They wanna save the earth, but all they do is smoke pot and smell bad. Officer Barbrady: You can't just lock 63 people in your basement. Cartman: They're not people, they're hippies! Cartman: I hate hippies! I mean, the way they always talk about "protectin' the earth" and then drive around in cars that get poor gas mileage and wear those stupid bracelets - I hate 'em! I wanna kick 'em in the nuts!

23rd September 2006, 10:57 AM	#22
senorpogo Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,094	Quote: Q: But it's not fascism until I'm affected and besides we still have free speech, no one is putting people in concentration camps. People in this country won't move unless they are directly affected by something like the draft. I love that the question isn't a question.
	__________________ The distinct advantage of a goat is that it can be taught to butt anyone who tries to steal it.

23rd September 2006, 10:58 AM	#23
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,285	Originally Posted by Cheesejoff Not entirely. Democracy is the rule of the people, and if the people do not want the Bush regime, they can protest against it. Of course, such an overthrowal would be illegal, or going against the rules of democracy, but not against the spirit of democracy. I know democracy often gets used as a shorthand for republican government (not Republican as in the party, mind you), I do it myself quite frequently. But there's a difference, and the difference actually matters quite a bit. Pure, unadulterated democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner. So in that sense, yes, a popular overthrow of government would be in the "spirit" of democracy. But it's NOT in the spirit of our actual political traditions: constitutional republicanism. But of course, such an overthrow isn't the point. Hell, the point isn't even to change anything. The real point of this protest is so that the protesters can feel good about themselves and confirm to each other that they hold the proper views.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

23rd September 2006, 11:08 AM	#24
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Looks like I'm getting the super soaker out of the closet for some hippie hunting on Oct 5.
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944

23rd September 2006, 11:17 AM	#25
Cheesejoff Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 216	Originally Posted by Badger Can you explain to me why they're not invading my province? I mean, we have more oil than the whole middle east, put together. All they gotta do is separate it from sand. There's not many of us around, either. Could it be the mosquitos protecting us? The muskeg? The chilly winters? Please, educate me. In my opinion, your statement is crap. Assuming you live in Canada, when did you become a dictatorship? Originally Posted by Ziggurat I know democracy often gets used as a shorthand for republican government (not Republican as in the party, mind you), I do it myself quite frequently. But there's a difference, and the difference actually matters quite a bit. Pure, unadulterated democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner. So in that sense, yes, a popular overthrow of government would be in the "spirit" of democracy. But it's NOT in the spirit of our actual political traditions: constitutional republicanism. True, hence it's a conflict with no real right answer. Originally Posted by Ziggurat But of course, such an overthrow isn't the point. Hell, the point isn't even to change anything. The real point of this protest is so that the protesters can feel good about themselves and confirm to each other that they hold the proper views. That is also true, protests generally only benefit protestors. Originally Posted by WildCat Join forces and rub elbows w/ communists, paranoid 9/11 conspiracy theorists, and anarchists! Fire bomb a newspaper office! Looks like a swell time. Originally Posted by corplinx Looks like I'm getting the super soaker out of the closet for some hippie hunting on Oct 5. Commies, conspiracy theorists, anarchists and hippies? You must be running out of stereotypes pretty fast!
Cheesejoff Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 216	Last edited by Cheesejoff; 23rd September 2006 at 11:24 AM.

23rd September 2006, 11:25 AM	#26
Badger Member of the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: In the country Posts: 3,441	Originally Posted by Cheesejoff Assuming you live in Canada, when did you become a dictatorship? That could be debated. Anyway, my point is "You think Bush would go and fight an expensive war a half world away for oil when he doesn't have to. Explain to me why he would do that."
	__________________ www.skepticalcommunity.com "You're a soundbite waiting to happen." (Steve Antle) "You are O.D'ing on drama flakes. Please stop." (kookbreaker) "You had me at bamboo worms." - (GeekGoddess) "I power-barfed for so long that I'm pretty sure I lost a few inches in height and maybe even went back in time a little. " (negativ)

23rd September 2006, 11:28 AM	#27
AmateurScientist JREF Kid Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,325	Originally Posted by Badger That could be debated. Anyway, my point is "You think Bush would go and fight an expensive war a half world away for oil when he doesn't have to. Explain to me why he would do that." Don't be so complacent, my Canuck friend. I'm digging out my old army BDUs, my boot knife, and an M-16, and me and my redneck buddies are coming for ya. Lock up the goats! AS

23rd September 2006, 11:31 AM	#28
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,213	Originally Posted by Cheesejoff Commies, conspiracy theorists, anarchists and hippies? You must be running out of stereotypes pretty fast! Quote: Q: But aren't there communists in World Can't Wait? A: Yeah, there are. Supporters of the Revolutionary Communist Party helped initiate it. They're in it because they think it's absolutely urgent to get rid of this regime, that it would both lift a huge burden from the world and would also give people a sense of their own potential power, and they think all that would open up avenues to get to the kind of society they want. Same as a whole lot of other people in World Can't Wait which, by the way, includes Greens, Christians, Republicans, anarchists, Muslims, Jews, feminists, Democrats, pacifists, and people who claim no affiliation also think it's urgent to drive out the Bush Regime and also think it can help lead to bigger changes that they want in society, coming from their own viewpoints. Commies, anarchists and tree huggers sounds about right
	__________________ "Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks."

23rd September 2006, 11:32 AM	#29
senorpogo Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,094	Originally Posted by Cheesejoff Commies, conspiracy theorists, anarchists and hippies? You must be running out of stereotypes pretty fast! Have you checked out the pics in the link supplied by WildCat? Are you suggesting that there weren't communists, conspiracy theorists, and anarchists at the event?
	__________________ The distinct advantage of a goat is that it can be taught to butt anyone who tries to steal it.

23rd September 2006, 11:34 AM	#30
Badger Member of the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: In the country Posts: 3,441	Originally Posted by AmateurScientist Don't be so complacent, my Canuck friend. I'm digging out my old army BDUs, my boot knife, and an M-16, and me and my redneck buddies are coming for ya. Lock up the goats! AS Them's fightin words! Thanks for the warning because it gives me enough time to stock up on booze and kubasa, and you and your redneck buddies won't stand a chance. Canadians are like the Borg. One taste of our booze and BBQ Kubie and you'll be begging to be assimilated. Good thought on bringing the knife. It'll help you guys cut up the kubasa. You'll have to take your chances with the goats, though.
	__________________ www.skepticalcommunity.com "You're a soundbite waiting to happen." (Steve Antle) "You are O.D'ing on drama flakes. Please stop." (kookbreaker) "You had me at bamboo worms." - (GeekGoddess) "I power-barfed for so long that I'm pretty sure I lost a few inches in height and maybe even went back in time a little. " (negativ)

23rd September 2006, 11:36 AM	#31
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,955	Originally Posted by AmateurScientist Lock up the goats! That's hot!

23rd September 2006, 11:37 AM	#32
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,213	This website is pure gold Quote: Q: Well, you have some good points, but I think you go too far. This reference to Hitler in your Call - things aren't that bad yet, and you're going to lose people. It's too strident. A: After enumerating the many crimes and criminal policies of the Bush Regime, our Call notes that "people look at all this and think of Hitler -- and they are right to do so. The Bush regime is setting out to radically remake society very quickly, in a fascist way, for generations to come." The question is, is that true or not? Are people thinking of Hitler? Yes, they are. Who hasn't heard that analogy come up in conversation? Are they wrong to do so? Is it wrong to sound the alarm - to point to the ways in which Bush has actually begun to remake society in, yes, a fascist direction, to point to the speed of this, and to point to the logical conclusion of the whole thing - unless stopped? Would it be more truthful to say that "people think of Hitler, but they are wrong to do so" - that the "normalization" of torture and indefinite detention, the empowerment of religious fanatics, the pervasive "above the law" surveillance and suppression of dissent and critical thinking, the military invasion of three countries (going on four) and the blithe reassurance that the deaths and suffering resulting from this are merely "the birth pangs of a new Middle East"? Would it be more truthful to say that all these are mere passing phenomena, of no larger significance or threat, expressing no directional change in society whatsoever?That has to be the point of departure. Not "is it strident", but is it TRUE? And let's face it -- this is a very "inconvenient" truth. It is hard for people to face up to the fact that not only CAN it happen here; it's going on right before our eyes. And it is hard for people to face up to the level of responsibility, to be honest, that this presents us with. Bush is Hitler! try to overthrow him or you will have the blood of 6 million jews on your hands! jew killer!
	__________________ "Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks."

23rd September 2006, 11:40 AM	#33
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,955	Originally Posted by andyandy Bush is Hitler! try to overthrow him or you will have the blood of 6 million jews on your hands! jew killer! I'm beginning to think that skeptigirs's skepticism is rather narrowly focused.

23rd September 2006, 11:48 AM	#34
Cheesejoff Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 216	Originally Posted by Badger That could be debated. Anyway, my point is "You think Bush would go and fight an expensive war a half world away for oil when he doesn't have to. Explain to me why he would do that." Simply because I can think of no other reason for the war to take place. Iraq had no links to terrorists - in fact, Saddam actually fought against Iran at one point - and they didn't have any WMD's. Many other countries have dictatorships and poor human rights records, such as China which the US actually trades with. So although I'm not certain about the actual motive, oil seems the most likely to me. Originally Posted by andyandy Commies, anarchists and tree huggers sounds about right Originally Posted by senorpogo Have you checked out the pics in the link supplied by WildCat? Are you suggesting that there weren't communists, conspiracy theorists, and anarchists at the event? These groups were indeed present at the event, but why single them out when Democrats and Republicans are also present?
Cheesejoff Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 216

23rd September 2006, 11:49 AM	#35
senorpogo Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,094	Originally Posted by andyandy This website is pure gold They have a myspace account. www.myspace.com/wcwnational Way to fight the machine.
	__________________ The distinct advantage of a goat is that it can be taught to butt anyone who tries to steal it.