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Tmy · 12th June 2003, 09:25 AM

Isnt that the common practice when dealing with tribal civil war (which is what is happening in the mideast).

What would be the pros and cons?

Graham · 13th June 2003, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Isnt that the common practice when dealing with tribal civil war (which is what is happening in the mideast).

What would be the pros and cons?

*bump*

This is something I've often wondered myself.

Is there a historical reason why the UN could not take possession of the areas "occupied" by the Israelis?

Graham

a_unique_person · 13th June 2003, 06:52 AM

because Israel expansionists didn't want the UN getting in the way of their plans.

crackmonkey · 13th June 2003, 07:03 AM

Or rather that they didn't trust the UN folks to not stand idly by as Palestinians attacked. Judging from events in the Balkans, I'd say that the Israelis were pretty shrewd judges of character.

a_unique_person · 13th June 2003, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by crackmonkey
Or rather that they didn't trust the UN folks to not stand idly by as Palestinians attacked. Judging from events in the Balkans, I'd say that the Israelis were pretty shrewd judges of character.

that's the excuse they give. however, you can also have them in just as observers. After the Jenin operation, there was much speculation as to whether a massacre had indeed occurred. Needless to say, the UN was not allowed in to see for itself. When the report was published saying that they had found no evidence for a massacre, based on the fact they couldn't get in and look, Israel then paraded this as proof that there was no massacre.

The masters of having their cake and eating it too.

Segnosaur · 13th June 2003, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person

that's the excuse they give. however, you can also have them in just as observers. After the Jenin operation, there was much speculation as to whether a massacre had indeed occurred. Needless to say, the UN was not allowed in to see for itself. When the report was published saying that they had found no evidence for a massacre, based on the fact they couldn't get in and look, Israel then paraded this as proof that there was no massacre.

Sorry, but the Palestinians themselves ended up agreeing (more or less) with the initial Israeli counts for the number of casulties (in the 50-60 range). But thanks for playing anyways.

Unless of course you think the Palestinians are UNDERESTIMATING the number of casulties.

Also, isn't Jenin supposed to be a UN-run refugee camp, and isn't the UN supposed to ensure that their camps are NOT used as the base of operations for terrorism? The fact that terrorists WERE found there indicates that the UN isn't as interested in enforcing 'no terrorist' rules as they should be.

Frostbite · 13th June 2003, 09:05 AM

Why don't they just build a big wall between the two states?

aerocontrols · 13th June 2003, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Frostbite
Why don't they just build a big wall between the two states?

There are over 1 million Arab-Israelis (Palestinians) that are full citizens of Israel.

Which side of the wall do you propose they be put on? Will you let them cross the wall to visit their families on the other side?

MattJ

ZeeGerman · 13th June 2003, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Frostbite
Why don't they just build a big wall between the two states?

Great idea. Can you draw on a map where to build it?

Zee

Crossbow · 13th June 2003, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Isnt that the common practice when dealing with tribal civil war (which is what is happening in the mideast).

What would be the pros and cons?

Personally, I would like to see such a thing myself, however the problem is that such a plan would have to be approved by the UN Security Council, and the council would not approve it.

Countries like Syria would probably like the idea.
However, the USA and UK would probably oppose it.

Number Six · 13th June 2003, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Frostbite
Why don't they just build a big wall between the two states?

I've got a better idea. Why don't they just build a big wall around both those states.

Tony · 13th June 2003, 09:20 AM

The UN exacerbates and prolongs the problem. The solution is to let them fight it out see who emerges the winner.

ZeeGerman · 13th June 2003, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony
The UN exacerbates and prolongs the problem. The solution is to let them fight it out see who emerges the winner.

You are aware that you are actually calling for the extinction of all Palestinians and - on that way - the death of many many Israelis, don't you?

Zee

Tony · 13th June 2003, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ZeeGerman

You are aware that you are actually calling for the extinction of all Palestinians and - on that way - the death of many many Israelis, don't you?

Zee

Yes, sadly that is what it has come to. The palestinians have shown they are unwilling or unable to compromise.

In the long run, more good than bad would come from it.

ZeeGerman · 13th June 2003, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony

In the long run, more good than bad would come from it.

When did you become psychic?

In the long run the sun will turn into a red giant. Then will be peace.

Zee

Tony · 13th June 2003, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ZeeGerman

When did you become psychic?

If you believe other-wise, why?

Segnosaur · 13th June 2003, 10:02 AM

As the song goes...

Lets Pave Palestine, and put in a parking lot.

ZeeGerman · 13th June 2003, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony

If you believe other-wise, why?

When it comes to the Israel-Palestine conflict I don't believe anything anymore. But I'd say that the notion "Kill a couple of million people and in the long run more good than bad would come from it" is more of the bizarre kind. Perhaps you can name an incident in the world's history that supports your view?

Zee

Tmy · 13th June 2003, 11:09 AM

Yeah but if you just kill all the Palis the other arabs will be pissed and then Israel will be fighting with them too.

So theres one solution. NUKE ISRAEL AND PALISTINE. They both cant fight if theyre both dead. Bonus: The other arabs wont bother fighting over the now barren holy land cause it'll be a sea of radiation!

Tony · 13th June 2003, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Yeah but if you just kill all the Palis the other arabs will be pissed and then Israel will be fighting with them too.

Israel would still win.

So theres one solution. NUKE ISRAEL AND PALISTINE. They both cant fight if theyre both dead. Bonus: The other arabs wont bother fighting over the now barren holy land cause it'll be a sea of radiation!

So you advocating nuking a free country? Id rather nuke mecca.

Tony · 13th June 2003, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ZeeGerman

Perhaps you can name an incident in the world's history that supports your view?

Most wars have resulted in peace.

Jon_in_london · 13th June 2003, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Yeah but if you just kill all the Palis the other arabs will be pissed and then Israel will be fighting with them too.

The other Arabs have tried several times to "drive the jews into the sea" each time they ended up only being saved from total defeat by superpower/UN intervention and in 1948, 1967 and 1973 they LOST land to the Isrealis (In spite of the fact that they outnumbered them 50:1).

The Arabs had all the aces. They pissed them away because they have been boastfull, wastefull, arrogant and ludicrously incompetent.

The Arabs have learned the hard way not to try their hand at a game of war with the Israelis.

Segnosaur · 13th June 2003, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Isnt that the common practice when dealing with tribal civil war (which is what is happening in the mideast).

What would be the pros and cons?

Since nobody else has really talked about the pros and cons, I thought I'd take a crack at it:

Pro:
- may serve as 'impartial observers' to give a accurate accounting of what has happened there

Con:
- May require a large expense (who would provide the troops) for little or no benefit (Look at the failures in the Congo for example)
- Peace keepers may become 'targets' themselves (especially if Americans are involved)
- Peace keepers may end up becoming unwitting 'human sheilds'. (The Palestinian terrorists have had no reservations running their operations in civilian areas; peacekeepers would provide one more thing to hid behind, perhaps something even more valuable than fellow palestinians)
- they may give a 'skewed' view to what is happening there

The main problem is the way the conflict is played out. Terrorist acts happen anywhere in Israel. Such acts would probably not be preventable by peacekeepers, and would not be 'observed' by them. (And it is unlikely the peacekeepers would try to arrest the terrorists in the occupied territories before they carried out their plans.) On the other hand, Israeli attempts to 'crack down' on terrorists WOULD occur in areas under the jurisdiction of the peace keepers. So, the Israeli reprisals would be seen, but not the initial acts that started them.

ZeeGerman · 13th June 2003, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony

Most wars have resulted in peace.

Did you perform the count to reach this conclusion within 65 minutes? Impressive...

Since we have reached the state of pulling unsubstantiated statements out of our arses, how about this one:

Most wars have resulted in just another war.

Zee

Richard G · 13th June 2003, 06:33 PM

I vote for dropping a MOAB in the middle of the Hammas.

a_unique_person · 13th June 2003, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Frostbite
Why don't they just build a big wall between the two states?

That is being built right now, except that instead of just dividing the two sides, it will completely encircle the palestinians.

a_unique_person · 13th June 2003, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Segnosaur

Sorry, but the Palestinians themselves ended up agreeing (more or less) with the initial Israeli counts for the number of casulties (in the 50-60 range). But thanks for playing anyways.

Unless of course you think the Palestinians are UNDERESTIMATING the number of casulties.

Also, isn't Jenin supposed to be a UN-run refugee camp, and isn't the UN supposed to ensure that their camps are NOT used as the base of operations for terrorism? The fact that terrorists WERE found there indicates that the UN isn't as interested in enforcing 'no terrorist' rules as they should be.

Can you argue the point please. The point was, the UN was not allowed in there to verify anything. The UN can act purely as observers, and have performed such missions in the past. Israel is not interested in this. Independent verification is as much a part of truth as anything else, please refer to the scientific method.

13th June 2003, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person

That is being built right now, except that instead of just dividing the two sides, it will completely encircle the palestinians.

Uhm how can they completly encircle the Palestinians with a wall when the Palestinian territories border Jordan, Egypt, and the Mediterranean?

armageddonman · 16th June 2003, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Richard G
I vote for dropping a MOAB in the middle of the Hammas.

Hamas has no "middle". Trying to hit Hamas with a MOAB would mean using a weapon of mass destrution in a populated area. You are actually demanding for a war crime to be commited.

Segnosaur · 16th June 2003, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person

Can you argue the point please. The point was, the UN was not allowed in there to verify anything. The UN can act purely as observers, and have performed such missions in the past. Israel is not interested in this. Independent verification is as much a part of truth as anything else, please refer to the scientific method.

The question is, could the UN really be "independent observers".

Going back to the list of pro and con points, any UN observers would only be witnessing the Israeli actions; they would not likely be able to witness the terrorist acts which caused the Israeli retaliation. This would give a very skewed view of the conflict there.

Secondly, those UN observers may end up being used by the terrorists as human shields. Why would Israel want to give the terrorists more things to hide behind?

Lastely, the UN has shown in the past to be more critical of the Israelis than the Palestinians. When Jenin happened, they jumped on the side of the Palestinians with their claim of thousands dead, when a much more reasonable decision would be to say "We don't know the situation, but we will condem those responsible when everything has been settled." Given that hostility, why would Israel allow "observers" to get involved who would (at least for a short time) give an incorrect assesment, when Israel tends to give a relatively honest assesment itself?

My posts about casulty counts and the suposed UN responsibility of running Jenin relates very closely to the last point.

Edited to ad: Oh, and my point was on topic... UN observation would not have mattered in Jenin because eventually the Palistinians agreed with Israeli counts.

Baker · 18th June 2003, 02:22 PM

How about the UN try to encouraging Arab nations to stop supporting Hamas and other terrorist groups.

Quote:

Saudi Arabia has acknowledged that it sends funds to Hamas.

The top Saudi spokesman in the United States told a Washington press conference the kingdom has relayed funds that finance what he termed Hamas's political wing. He said the money arrives via governments and non-governmental organizations.

Western intelligence sources say that Saudi Arabia provides Hamas with about $30 million a year, raised through foundations and donations from members of the royal family.
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtri...reaking_8.html

Mike B. · 18th June 2003, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Frostbite
Why don't they just build a big wall between the two states?

In a recent question time for the PM, a Labor MP asked Tony Blair about the wall being built and how it was no better than the Berlin Wall.

Wouldn't though a wall between Israel and a Palestinian State be infinitly better than what is going on now, even if it is not ideal?

a_unique_person · 18th June 2003, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike B.

In a recent question time for the PM, a Labor MP asked Tony Blair about the wall being built and how it was no better than the Berlin Wall.

Wouldn't though a wall between Israel and a Palestinian State be infinitly better than what is going on now, even if it is not ideal?

Except that the wall that is planned will completely encircle Palestine, even the common border between the west bank and Jordan.

Baker · 18th June 2003, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person

Except that the wall that is planned will completely encircle Palestine, even the common border between the west bank and Jordan.

You still haven’t answered ssibal question on this matter.

Quote:

Originally posted by ssibal

Uhm how can they completly encircle the Palestinians with a wall when the Palestinian territories border Jordan, Egypt, and the Mediterranean?

a_unique_person · 18th June 2003, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baker

You still haven’t answered ssibal question on this matter.

I said, the West Bank, the wall will be put down the common border between the West Bank and Jordan.

18th June 2003, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person

I said, the West Bank, the wall will be put down the common border between the West Bank and Jordan.

Where did you hear this? And what about the Dead Sea?

a_unique_person · 18th June 2003, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ssibal

Where did you hear this? And what about the Dead Sea?

http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/show...threadid=15896

Apart from that, the wall is being used to take land. As it winds around, people are being separated from their traditional farming land, it is quite wide, taking more land, and houses are being demolished to make way for it.

12th June 2003, 09:25 AM	#1
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	How about UN Peacekeepers in Israel? Isnt that the common practice when dealing with tribal civil war (which is what is happening in the mideast). What would be the pros and cons?

13th June 2003, 06:46 AM	#2
Graham Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,465	Re: How about UN Peacekeepers in Israel? Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Isnt that the common practice when dealing with tribal civil war (which is what is happening in the mideast). What would be the pros and cons? bump This is something I've often wondered myself. Is there a historical reason why the UN could not take possession of the areas "occupied" by the Israelis? Graham
Graham Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,465

13th June 2003, 06:52 AM	#3
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,463	because Israel expansionists didn't want the UN getting in the way of their plans.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

13th June 2003, 07:10 AM	#5
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,463	Quote: Originally posted by crackmonkey Or rather that they didn't trust the UN folks to not stand idly by as Palestinians attacked. Judging from events in the Balkans, I'd say that the Israelis were pretty shrewd judges of character. that's the excuse they give. however, you can also have them in just as observers. After the Jenin operation, there was much speculation as to whether a massacre had indeed occurred. Needless to say, the UN was not allowed in to see for itself. When the report was published saying that they had found no evidence for a massacre, based on the fact they couldn't get in and look, Israel then paraded this as proof that there was no massacre. The masters of having their cake and eating it too.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

13th June 2003, 07:25 AM	#6
Segnosaur Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 6,115	Quote: Originally posted by a_unique_person that's the excuse they give. however, you can also have them in just as observers. After the Jenin operation, there was much speculation as to whether a massacre had indeed occurred. Needless to say, the UN was not allowed in to see for itself. When the report was published saying that they had found no evidence for a massacre, based on the fact they couldn't get in and look, Israel then paraded this as proof that there was no massacre. Sorry, but the Palestinians themselves ended up agreeing (more or less) with the initial Israeli counts for the number of casulties (in the 50-60 range). But thanks for playing anyways. Unless of course you think the Palestinians are UNDERESTIMATING the number of casulties. Also, isn't Jenin supposed to be a UN-run refugee camp, and isn't the UN supposed to ensure that their camps are NOT used as the base of operations for terrorism? The fact that terrorists WERE found there indicates that the UN isn't as interested in enforcing 'no terrorist' rules as they should be.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I cheered when then the WTC came down. - UndercoverElephant (a.k.a. JustGeoff) I cheer Bin Laden... - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Bin Laden delivered justice - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Men shop for lingerie the way kids shop for breakfast cereal... they will buy something they know nothing about, just to get the prize inside. - Jeff Foxworthy

13th June 2003, 07:03 AM	#4
crackmonkey Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,057	Or rather that they didn't trust the UN folks to not stand idly by as Palestinians attacked. Judging from events in the Balkans, I'd say that the Israelis were pretty shrewd judges of character.

13th June 2003, 09:05 AM	#7
Frostbite Muse Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Montreal, Qc Posts: 986	Why don't they just build a big wall between the two states?
	__________________ Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction. They may be summed up by the phrases: 1- It's completely impossible. 2- It's possible, but it's not worth doing. 3- I said it was a good idea all along. -Arthur C. Clarke

13th June 2003, 09:08 AM	#8
aerocontrols Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 3,445	Quote: Originally posted by Frostbite Why don't they just build a big wall between the two states? There are over 1 million Arab-Israelis (Palestinians) that are full citizens of Israel. Which side of the wall do you propose they be put on? Will you let them cross the wall to visit their families on the other side? MattJ
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13th June 2003, 09:11 AM	#9
ZeeGerman Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Just far enough from Detroit that it's OK Posts: 784	Quote: Originally posted by Frostbite Why don't they just build a big wall between the two states? Great idea. Can you draw on a map where to build it? Zee
	__________________ Wenn die Katze ein Pferd wäre, könnte man die Bäume raufreiten. Afta ol, ve arr frrom ze lend of tschoklet (The Simpsons "Das Kraftwerk")

13th June 2003, 09:12 AM	#10
Crossbow Seeking Honesty and Sanity Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 6,349	Re: How about UN Peacekeepers in Israel? Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Isnt that the common practice when dealing with tribal civil war (which is what is happening in the mideast). What would be the pros and cons? Personally, I would like to see such a thing myself, however the problem is that such a plan would have to be approved by the UN Security Council, and the council would not approve it. Countries like Syria would probably like the idea. However, the USA and UK would probably oppose it.
	__________________ A man's best friend is his dogma.

13th June 2003, 09:18 AM	#11
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017	Quote: Originally posted by Frostbite Why don't they just build a big wall between the two states? I've got a better idea. Why don't they just build a big wall around both those states.
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017

13th June 2003, 09:20 AM	#12
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,806	The UN exacerbates and prolongs the problem. The solution is to let them fight it out see who emerges the winner.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

13th June 2003, 09:34 AM	#13
ZeeGerman Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Just far enough from Detroit that it's OK Posts: 784	Quote: Originally posted by Tony The UN exacerbates and prolongs the problem. The solution is to let them fight it out see who emerges the winner. You are aware that you are actually calling for the extinction of all Palestinians and - on that way - the death of many many Israelis, don't you? Zee
	__________________ Wenn die Katze ein Pferd wäre, könnte man die Bäume raufreiten. Afta ol, ve arr frrom ze lend of tschoklet (The Simpsons "Das Kraftwerk")

13th June 2003, 09:47 AM	#14
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,806	Quote: Originally posted by ZeeGerman You are aware that you are actually calling for the extinction of all Palestinians and - on that way - the death of many many Israelis, don't you? Zee Yes, sadly that is what it has come to. The palestinians have shown they are unwilling or unable to compromise. In the long run, more good than bad would come from it.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

13th June 2003, 09:52 AM	#15
ZeeGerman Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Just far enough from Detroit that it's OK Posts: 784	Quote: Originally posted by Tony In the long run, more good than bad would come from it. When did you become psychic? In the long run the sun will turn into a red giant. Then will be peace. Zee
	__________________ Wenn die Katze ein Pferd wäre, könnte man die Bäume raufreiten. Afta ol, ve arr frrom ze lend of tschoklet (The Simpsons "Das Kraftwerk")

13th June 2003, 09:57 AM	#16
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,806	Quote: Originally posted by ZeeGerman When did you become psychic? If you believe other-wise, why?
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

13th June 2003, 10:02 AM	#17
Segnosaur Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 6,115	As the song goes... Lets Pave Palestine, and put in a parking lot.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I cheered when then the WTC came down. - UndercoverElephant (a.k.a. JustGeoff) I cheer Bin Laden... - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Bin Laden delivered justice - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Men shop for lingerie the way kids shop for breakfast cereal... they will buy something they know nothing about, just to get the prize inside. - Jeff Foxworthy

13th June 2003, 10:12 AM	#18
ZeeGerman Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Just far enough from Detroit that it's OK Posts: 784	Quote: Originally posted by Tony If you believe other-wise, why? When it comes to the Israel-Palestine conflict I don't believe anything anymore. But I'd say that the notion "Kill a couple of million people and in the long run more good than bad would come from it" is more of the bizarre kind. Perhaps you can name an incident in the world's history that supports your view? Zee
	__________________ Wenn die Katze ein Pferd wäre, könnte man die Bäume raufreiten. Afta ol, ve arr frrom ze lend of tschoklet (The Simpsons "Das Kraftwerk")

13th June 2003, 11:09 AM	#19
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Yeah but if you just kill all the Palis the other arabs will be pissed and then Israel will be fighting with them too. So theres one solution. NUKE ISRAEL AND PALISTINE. They both cant fight if theyre both dead. Bonus: The other arabs wont bother fighting over the now barren holy land cause it'll be a sea of radiation!

13th June 2003, 11:16 AM	#20
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,806	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Yeah but if you just kill all the Palis the other arabs will be pissed and then Israel will be fighting with them too. Israel would still win. So theres one solution. NUKE ISRAEL AND PALISTINE. They both cant fight if theyre both dead. Bonus: The other arabs wont bother fighting over the now barren holy land cause it'll be a sea of radiation! So you advocating nuking a free country? Id rather nuke mecca.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

13th June 2003, 11:17 AM	#21
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,806	Quote: Originally posted by ZeeGerman Perhaps you can name an incident in the world's history that supports your view? Most wars have resulted in peace.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

13th June 2003, 12:00 PM	#22
Jon_in_london Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,994	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Yeah but if you just kill all the Palis the other arabs will be pissed and then Israel will be fighting with them too. The other Arabs have tried several times to "drive the jews into the sea" each time they ended up only being saved from total defeat by superpower/UN intervention and in 1948, 1967 and 1973 they LOST land to the Isrealis (In spite of the fact that they outnumbered them 50:1). The Arabs had all the aces. They pissed them away because they have been boastfull, wastefull, arrogant and ludicrously incompetent. The Arabs have learned the hard way not to try their hand at a game of war with the Israelis.
	__________________ Radicals and Racists Don't point your finger at me I'm a small town white boy Just tryin' to make ends meet Don't need your religion Don't watch that much T.V. Just makin' my livin', baby Well that's enough for me

13th June 2003, 12:44 PM	#23
Segnosaur Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 6,115	Re: How about UN Peacekeepers in Israel? Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Isnt that the common practice when dealing with tribal civil war (which is what is happening in the mideast). What would be the pros and cons? Since nobody else has really talked about the pros and cons, I thought I'd take a crack at it: Pro: - may serve as 'impartial observers' to give a accurate accounting of what has happened there Con: - May require a large expense (who would provide the troops) for little or no benefit (Look at the failures in the Congo for example) - Peace keepers may become 'targets' themselves (especially if Americans are involved) - Peace keepers may end up becoming unwitting 'human sheilds'. (The Palestinian terrorists have had no reservations running their operations in civilian areas; peacekeepers would provide one more thing to hid behind, perhaps something even more valuable than fellow palestinians) - they may give a 'skewed' view to what is happening there The main problem is the way the conflict is played out. Terrorist acts happen anywhere in Israel. Such acts would probably not be preventable by peacekeepers, and would not be 'observed' by them. (And it is unlikely the peacekeepers would try to arrest the terrorists in the occupied territories before they carried out their plans.) On the other hand, Israeli attempts to 'crack down' on terrorists WOULD occur in areas under the jurisdiction of the peace keepers. So, the Israeli reprisals would be seen, but not the initial acts that started them.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I cheered when then the WTC came down. - UndercoverElephant (a.k.a. JustGeoff) I cheer Bin Laden... - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Bin Laden delivered justice - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Men shop for lingerie the way kids shop for breakfast cereal... they will buy something they know nothing about, just to get the prize inside. - Jeff Foxworthy

13th June 2003, 12:47 PM	#24
ZeeGerman Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Just far enough from Detroit that it's OK Posts: 784	Quote: Originally posted by Tony Most wars have resulted in peace. Did you perform the count to reach this conclusion within 65 minutes? Impressive... Since we have reached the state of pulling unsubstantiated statements out of our arses, how about this one: Most wars have resulted in just another war. Zee
	__________________ Wenn die Katze ein Pferd wäre, könnte man die Bäume raufreiten. Afta ol, ve arr frrom ze lend of tschoklet (The Simpsons "Das Kraftwerk")

13th June 2003, 06:33 PM	#25
Richard G Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 940	I vote for dropping a MOAB in the middle of the Hammas.
Richard G Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 940

13th June 2003, 08:14 PM	#26
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,463	Quote: Originally posted by Frostbite Why don't they just build a big wall between the two states? That is being built right now, except that instead of just dividing the two sides, it will completely encircle the palestinians.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

13th June 2003, 08:16 PM	#27
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,463	Quote: Originally posted by Segnosaur Sorry, but the Palestinians themselves ended up agreeing (more or less) with the initial Israeli counts for the number of casulties (in the 50-60 range). But thanks for playing anyways. Unless of course you think the Palestinians are UNDERESTIMATING the number of casulties. Also, isn't Jenin supposed to be a UN-run refugee camp, and isn't the UN supposed to ensure that their camps are NOT used as the base of operations for terrorism? The fact that terrorists WERE found there indicates that the UN isn't as interested in enforcing 'no terrorist' rules as they should be. Can you argue the point please. The point was, the UN was not allowed in there to verify anything. The UN can act purely as observers, and have performed such missions in the past. Israel is not interested in this. Independent verification is as much a part of truth as anything else, please refer to the scientific method.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

13th June 2003, 08:31 PM	#28
ssibal Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by a_unique_person That is being built right now, except that instead of just dividing the two sides, it will completely encircle the palestinians. Uhm how can they completly encircle the Palestinians with a wall when the Palestinian territories border Jordan, Egypt, and the Mediterranean?
ssibal Guest Posts: n/a

16th June 2003, 01:06 AM	#29
armageddonman Muse Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 502	Quote: Originally posted by Richard G I vote for dropping a MOAB in the middle of the Hammas. Hamas has no "middle". Trying to hit Hamas with a MOAB would mean using a weapon of mass destrution in a populated area. You are actually demanding for a war crime to be commited.
armageddonman Muse Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 502	__________________ Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!

16th June 2003, 08:15 AM	#30
Segnosaur Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 6,115	Quote: Originally posted by a_unique_person Can you argue the point please. The point was, the UN was not allowed in there to verify anything. The UN can act purely as observers, and have performed such missions in the past. Israel is not interested in this. Independent verification is as much a part of truth as anything else, please refer to the scientific method. The question is, could the UN really be "independent observers". Going back to the list of pro and con points, any UN observers would only be witnessing the Israeli actions; they would not likely be able to witness the terrorist acts which caused the Israeli retaliation. This would give a very skewed view of the conflict there. Secondly, those UN observers may end up being used by the terrorists as human shields. Why would Israel want to give the terrorists more things to hide behind? Lastely, the UN has shown in the past to be more critical of the Israelis than the Palestinians. When Jenin happened, they jumped on the side of the Palestinians with their claim of thousands dead, when a much more reasonable decision would be to say "We don't know the situation, but we will condem those responsible when everything has been settled." Given that hostility, why would Israel allow "observers" to get involved who would (at least for a short time) give an incorrect assesment, when Israel tends to give a relatively honest assesment itself? My posts about casulty counts and the suposed UN responsibility of running Jenin relates very closely to the last point. Edited to ad: Oh, and my point was on topic... UN observation would not have mattered in Jenin because eventually the Palistinians agreed with Israeli counts.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I cheered when then the WTC came down. - UndercoverElephant (a.k.a. JustGeoff) I cheer Bin Laden... - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Bin Laden delivered justice - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Men shop for lingerie the way kids shop for breakfast cereal... they will buy something they know nothing about, just to get the prize inside. - Jeff Foxworthy

18th June 2003, 02:22 PM	#31
Baker Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,121	How about the UN try to encouraging Arab nations to stop supporting Hamas and other terrorist groups. Quote: Saudi Arabia has acknowledged that it sends funds to Hamas. The top Saudi spokesman in the United States told a Washington press conference the kingdom has relayed funds that finance what he termed Hamas's political wing. He said the money arrives via governments and non-governmental organizations. Western intelligence sources say that Saudi Arabia provides Hamas with about $30 million a year, raised through foundations and donations from members of the royal family. http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtri...reaking_8.html
Baker Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,121

18th June 2003, 02:44 PM	#32
Mike B. Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,186	Quote: Originally posted by Frostbite Why don't they just build a big wall between the two states? In a recent question time for the PM, a Labor MP asked Tony Blair about the wall being built and how it was no better than the Berlin Wall. Wouldn't though a wall between Israel and a Palestinian State be infinitly better than what is going on now, even if it is not ideal?
Mike B. Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,186

18th June 2003, 04:33 PM	#33
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,463	Quote: Originally posted by Mike B. In a recent question time for the PM, a Labor MP asked Tony Blair about the wall being built and how it was no better than the Berlin Wall. Wouldn't though a wall between Israel and a Palestinian State be infinitly better than what is going on now, even if it is not ideal? Except that the wall that is planned will completely encircle Palestine, even the common border between the west bank and Jordan.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

18th June 2003, 04:53 PM	#34
Baker Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,121	Quote: Originally posted by a_unique_person Except that the wall that is planned will completely encircle Palestine, even the common border between the west bank and Jordan. You still haven’t answered ssibal question on this matter. Quote: Originally posted by ssibal Uhm how can they completly encircle the Palestinians with a wall when the Palestinian territories border Jordan, Egypt, and the Mediterranean?
Baker Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,121

18th June 2003, 05:00 PM	#35
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,463	Quote: Originally posted by Baker You still haven’t answered ssibal question on this matter. I said, the West Bank, the wall will be put down the common border between the West Bank and Jordan.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes