India Has Evidence Pakistan Bombed Its Trains

[SteveGrenard]

India Blames Pakistan for July Train Bombings
By VOA News
30 September 2006

Quote:

Indian police say they have evidence that Pakistan's military intelligence agency masterminded the July 11 train bombings in Mumbai that killed nearly 200 people and wounded more than 800 others.

[CFLarsen]

No.

They say they have evidence. That's not the same as having evidence.

[HeavyAaron]

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

No.

They say they have evidence. That's not the same as having evidence.

Wouldn't that be one of the dumber bluffs? Bluffing when you know you will be called is irrational. Now, of course, the quality of the evidence may be quite poor; who knows? But I think them claiming to have evidence is a pretty good indicator that they do in fact have evidence.

Now, having said all that, you are, of course, technically correct.

Aaron

[davefoc]

The link
http://voanews.com/english/2006-09-30-voa15.cfm

And CFL is correct. India accusing Pakistan of involvement with terrorist actions inside India is not new. What would be new is if they actually had evidence clearly linking an incident to a Pakistani government organization.

Even there it might be difficult to sort out whether the incident was actually caused by official Pakistani policy or was just the action of a rogue agent.

But despite the title of this thread, nothing really is new. India accuses Pakistan of being bad and Pakistan denies it.

[burrahobbit]

What is acceptable evidence?

India has confessions by the alleged bombers that they were trained in Pakistan.

But India has loads of such evidence going back 20 years. They have evidence that the mastermind of the previous Bombay blasts Dawoood Ibrahim is in Pakistan. Then we got carefully graded denials from Pak.

First "he is not in Karachi" (could be in a suburb?)

Then a few days later "we don't know where he is"

Then, a couple of weeks later, finally, "he is not in Pakistan"

Frankly, we don't give a damn what Pakistan denies or does not deny.

GW Bush and his poodles will continue to talk of Musharaf as "being in the frontline in the war on terror".

India will continue to say (sotto voce) "Yeah,on the side of the terrorists"

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by HeavyAaron

Wouldn't that be one of the dumber bluffs? Bluffing when you know you will be called is irrational. Now, of course, the quality of the evidence may be quite poor; who knows? But I think them claiming to have evidence is a pretty good indicator that they do in fact have evidence.

Now, having said all that, you are, of course, technically correct.

Aaron

Of course I am.

It would be incredibly dumb, unless - and only unless:

• They had clear evidence.
• They are willing to make it public.

Any sight of the evidence yet?

[Zep]

He looks like a Pakistani.


And he weighs the same as a duck...

[davefoc]

I am not sure what people are saying.

I do not think there is much question that sometimes Pakistanis commit terrorist attacks against India. It happens. One would pretty much expect that as the kind of vestigial violence that would follow one of the most violent events in human history, the separation of India and Pakistan into separate countries 50 or so years ago, even without Kashmir and the war over Bangladesh to fire up the faithful.

The title of the thread states that Pakistan bombed the trains. This implies that bombing trains in India was an act of the Pakistani government. I doubt that the attacks were sanctioned or supplied by the Pakistani government. It is possible, of course, and if there is evidence to that effect then the title of the thread would be correct. Right now, I don't know that the Indian government has presented any such evidence.

It is also possible that the attacks were done by rogue elements of the Pakistani government. State secrets about atomic bombs were disemminated like that I believe. But does the Indian government have evidence of something like that?

[SteveGrenard]

Quote:

India said Sunday it would share with Pakistan evidence gathered by its intelligence agencies that Pakistan’s Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) agency and terror groups based on its territory were involved in the Mumbai serial blasts on July 11.

http://www.ecanadanow.com/world/2006...with-pakistan/

Quote:

Mumbai police Commissioner A.N. Roy, right, speaks during a press conference in Mumbai, India, Saturday, Sept. 30, 2006. Pakistan's spy agency masterminded the July 11 train bombings that killed more than 200 people in the Indian city of Mumbai, Roy said. Pakistan immediately denied the accusations. (AP Photo)

Article at:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...d/4227728.html

[CFLarsen]

"Share with Pakistan"....but not with us...

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

"Share with Pakistan"....but not with us...

Who is "us" and why is that important?

I think India is very correct to first go the the Pakistani government with the details of this reported information. This "evidence" should be handled with such care as India's government sees see fit. After consultation with Pakistani officials, Indian will determine whether or not remedy will be had, or if they need to expose a link (or a case of negligence) in Pakistan. It would be exposes to the world as a piece of political leverage.

Thus, the details of the pronouncements are general and vague until India decides to go further at the political level.

This is politics, not physics. Vague is how it is played.

Wow, I just had a thought: maybe that is why Pres Bush is not so keen on scientists. They are not vague enough for him, but are always in search of the ever elusive evidence.

Claus, I don't think dinner invitations to the White House will be in your mailbox any time soon!

DR

[simonmaal]

Hitler had 'evidence' that Polish soldiers attacked Germans. Just before he invaded Poland. Enough said.

[Charlie Monoxide]

There's nothing like a couple of nuclear powers getting pissed off at each to brighten up one's day ....

Charlie (although they've been at it for years) Monoxide

[CFLarsen]

Any sight of the evidence yet?

[Jon_in_london]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

India has confessions by the alleged bombers that they were trained in Pakistan.

And the 9/11 terrorist were trained in the US.

[Zep]

Btw, India also has convincing evidence that Sai Baba produces tonnes of "magic ash" daily for his devoted followers out of thin air. And gold watches too. And they can produce the ash and gold watches as "proof".

[Polaris]

Originally Posted by Charlie Monoxide

There's nothing like a couple of nuclear powers getting pissed off at each to brighten up one's day ....

Charlie (although they've been at it for years) Monoxide

Hope the Indians launch first. Too many Pakistanis in Pakistan.

[SteveGrenard]

This report came out yesterday ....

Quote:

It was here Junaid sealed the 7/11 plot

Amrapalli Building flat on Mira Road was used as SIMI office, tenant Sajid Ansari has been arrested for harbouring Pak terrorists

Sagnik Chowdhury

Mumbai, October 14: Flat 304, B/11 Amrapalli Building. This Mira Road address is where Junaid, Mumbai police's biggest catch in the 7/11 investigations, anchored preparatory meetings and finalised the plot to conduct serial blasts on Mumbai's local trains that killed 187 people.

The police are now also sure that Asif Khan Bashir Khan, alias Junaid, was one of the highest ranked SIMI activist in the country which explains why and how the same flat came to be used as a guest-house-cum office of the outfit.


When Newsline tracked down the flat it was locked. Building secretary A R Ahmer disclosed it was owned by one Atiq-ur-Rehman, who used estate agents to rent it out to Mohammed Sajid Margub Ansari. Ansari has been arrested by the ATS for sheltering Pakistani militants involved in the blasts.

''About three months back, two ATS officers came looking. One of them was Sanjay Surve. They asked me about Sajid, and told me that he (Sajid) and several others had held meetings at the flat before the 7/11 blasts,'' said Ahmer.

According to A to Z Agents, the estate agency who rented out the flat, Sajid took the flat a year and a half ago and lived there with his mother. He surrendered the flat on July 21, citing a leaking kitchen roof as the problem.
The ATS believes Junaid was present in Mumbai on 7/11, the day of the blasts, and was staying at Flat 101/A at Poonam Park housing society (also on Mira Road). The police have since recovered several Urdu texts and newspaper clippings about the Gujarat riots from there.

''I was there when they brought him. They took out a large plastic bag and showed us a substance which they claimed was an explosive, probably ammonium nitrate,'' said Rehman Abbas, a college lecturer and resident of Poonam Park.

''They also showed us several detonators they found hidden in his room. Since I knew Urdu, I was asked to help inspect the Urdu texts which included Jehadi literature. There were also several newspaper clippings about the Gujarat riots and the activities of the Bajrang Dal,'' he added.

Junaid's past record has bolstered police's belief that he is the prime mover in the 7/11 blasts. Additional Commissioner of Police, ATS Jai Jeet Singh said, ''He has been on the run since 2001 and has been booked for various offences which explains what an important catch he is. He is a key SIMI activist.''

Initially holding the post of SIMI's district president in Jalgaon, Junaid rose to become one of the highest ranked SIMI activists in the country. In February 2006, at a secret SIMI meeting in Karnataka, Junaid was offered the post of all-India president but he declined.

The police say he also recruited youths and sent them to Pakistan for training in terrorist activities.

''Junaid sent 6 youths for terrorist training to Pakistan, via Kashmir in 2000. Three of these men were gunned down in an encounter by security agencies in Kashmir,'' said an ATS officer.

Finally, Junaid was arrested from Belgaum (in Karnataka) on October 3. ''Junaid's name was disclosed by Ehtesham Siddiqui and Mohammed Sajid Ansari, both claiming that Junaid played the main role and the final plans for the bombings were hatched at Amrapalli Building,'' confirmed the officer.

http://cities.expressindia.com/fulls...?newsid=205299

[SteveGrenard]

Here is a backgrounder that came out a few days ago on Pakistani ISI activities from the Council on Foreign Relations. It includes a section on India's charges (scroll down):

http://www.cfr.org/publication/11644/isi_terrorism.html

[CFLarsen]

Charges are not evidence.

Where is the evidence that it was Pakistan's military intelligence agency that was behind this?

[RyanRoberts]

This makes interesting, related reading. A coup plot against Musharraf involving 40 Islamists, mainly officers.

Originally Posted by Retired ISI Official

These governments, whether it is Indian or Pakistani, compel their forces to work for their strategic requirements, and when a particular operation is over, they talk about peace and wash their hands of everything they have done in the past. For instance, the Kargil operation [the Pakistani incursion into Indian-administered Kashmir in 1999]. Pakistan initially called it an action by the 'mujahideen'. Six months later, they started awarding medals to their army officers for their performance in Kargil. What does it prove? It proves that governments are personally involved in everything, whether it is the Kargil operation or the Kashmiri resistance, and then they blame the mujahideen or whatever

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by RyanRoberts

This makes interesting, related reading. A coup plot against Musharraf involving 40 Islamists, mainly officers.

I think the device is often called "fig leaf" these days.

DR