If we just ignore North Korea will they go away?

bozothedeathmachine · 5th October 2006, 12:52 PM

The semi-annual North Korean tantrum has started again. Now their version of "pay attention to me" is a nuke test. The more they go off the reservation the more it pisses off the whole world in general. Moreso it cheeses off their neighbors, especially China, who is getting more and more frustrated with them. All of the bluster after the missle test a few months ago seems to have died out rather quickly which is why they're onto this nuke business.

So, what happens if we totally ignore them. Will they just fade away? Will China finally tell them to stop acting like petulant children? Or will they go completely wheels-off and start a conflagration just to get some attention?

Hutch · 5th October 2006, 01:31 PM

Quote:

So, what happens if we totally ignore them. Will they just fade away?

No

Quote:

Will China finally tell them to stop acting like petulant children?

Maybe

Quote:

Or will they go completely wheels-off and start a conflagration just to get some attention?

Unknown. Perhaps Unknowable.

Upchurch · 5th October 2006, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by bozothedeathmachine

So, what happens if we totally ignore them. Will they just fade away?

Sure, if they make a very big mistake.

Darth Rotor · 5th October 2006, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by bozothedeathmachine

Will they just fade away?

Old generals, not Commie regimes, just fade away. (MacArthur ref, nicely nested due to his Korea tie in)

NK is now being led by a rock n roll Communist, son of Kim Jong Il, so it is more likely "to burn out, than to fade away." (Neil Young ref)

DR

Rob Lister · 5th October 2006, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by bozothedeathmachine

The semi-annual North Korean tantrum has started again. Now their version of "pay attention to me" is a nuke test. The more they go off the reservation the more it pisses off the whole world in general. Moreso it cheeses off their neighbors, especially China, who is getting more and more frustrated with them. All of the bluster after the missle test a few months ago seems to have died out rather quickly which is why they're onto this nuke business.

So, what happens if we totally ignore them. Will they just fade away? Will China finally tell them to stop acting like petulant children? Or will they go completely wheels-off and start a conflagration just to get some attention?

I'm pretty convinced that if everyone ignored them to the extent of cutting them off completely from all trade until such time as they complied, in full, with all requirements, then they would starve to death in a matter of months. Problem is, the really nasty ones (at the top) will be the last to starve.

First to starve are the non-military population (which is pretty much what's happening know).

Dark Jaguar · 5th October 2006, 09:42 PM

Here's a thought experiment. What if the military just ignored their own leader and went off to persue their own interests, like an arts and crafts fair or something?

That sure would be sweet...

CaptainManacles · 6th October 2006, 01:37 AM

We better hope, because I don't think there's really anything we can do about it. And I think trying to organize the diplomacy ourselves is just putting a bad stink on ideas that the rest of the world would jump on anyway. Hopefully China will realize having a madman with a nuke that can't reach anywhere but China is a bad idea.

I think we'll be safe, but I worry for Japan.

merentha · 6th October 2006, 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by CaptainManacles

I think we'll be safe, but I worry for Japan.

Nah, Japan has Gojira.

Zep · 6th October 2006, 05:39 AM

Interesting idea - why does everyone try to talk to Kim Jong Il as though he is the ONLY representative of NK? Perhaps if someone tried to talk to others in the NK Communist Party instead, perhaps they will get the idea (if it is not already obvious to them) that Kim is little more than an utterly unworthy pampered prat...and that they are the ones doing the pampering.

In short, undermine Kim by talking to OTHER North Koreans instead. Perhaps they could be persuaded to be more sensible about things...

bozothedeathmachine · 6th October 2006, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by Zep

In short, undermine Kim by talking to OTHER North Koreans instead. Perhaps they could be persuaded to be more sensible about things...

The pervasive idea seems to be that Dear Leader is NK. I imagine the US would not be able to find anyone with a serious amount of clout with the NK army that doesn't defer to Kim. That's the beauty of being able to surround yourself with sychophants.

Besides, something tells me if the US approached anyone else they would only be able to do it once before that person mysteriously disappears.

FreeChile · 6th October 2006, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by bozothedeathmachine

The semi-annual North Korean tantrum has started again. Now their version of "pay attention to me" is a nuke test. The more they go off the reservation the more it pisses off the whole world in general. Moreso it cheeses off their neighbors, especially China, who is getting more and more frustrated with them. All of the bluster after the missle test a few months ago seems to have died out rather quickly which is why they're onto this nuke business.

So, what happens if we totally ignore them. Will they just fade away? Will China finally tell them to stop acting like petulant children? Or will they go completely wheels-off and start a conflagration just to get some attention?

How do you propose we ignore them? In other words, what do you mean by ignoring them? Would taking our bases out of the area be considered part of ignoring them? Likewise, would discontinuing military drills in that area be part of ignoring them?

Ziggurat · 6th October 2006, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by bozothedeathmachine

Besides, something tells me if the US approached anyone else they would only be able to do it once before that person mysteriously disappears.

Then we should be trying to approach everyone around Kim, just to get him on edge.

Rob Lister · 6th October 2006, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Then we should be trying to approach everyone around Kim, just to get him on edge.

Now THAT's a good idea.

Execution of it is the hard part.

Bikewer · 6th October 2006, 10:36 AM

Seems to me that the gentler diplomacy advocated by the South Koreans may be as effective as anything. With increasing prosperity on the part of South Korea, they may be thinking at some point the North will say, "Uh, listen...Could you guys maybe build a Hyundai plant up here?"

DaChew · 6th October 2006, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by bozothedeathmachine

Will they just fade away?

As Saddam Hussein said, "Yeah, well, where was I going to go Detroit?"

ARubberChickenWithAPulley · 6th October 2006, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Seems to me that the gentler diplomacy advocated by the South Koreans may be as effective as anything. With increasing prosperity on the part of South Korea, they may be thinking at some point the North will say, "Uh, listen...Could you guys maybe build a Hyundai plant up here?"

The Sunshine Policy has not been particularly effective. The North has engaged in some joint ventures with South Korean companies, including at the Kaesong Industrial Complex, and at tourist sites at Kaesong, Mt. Paektu and Mr. Kumgang. These are ventures done up with legal contracts just like any normal business deal would be. North Korea, however, has no problem altering the terms on the fly when something bothers them. For example, last year Hyundai fired a top executive for embezzling over $1 million. North Korea happened to like dealing with that particular person. So, they unilaterally halved the number of tourists allowed on the trips and demanded that Hyundai reinstate the executive. They then decided to quit dealing with Hyundai altogether. They have also done things like detain and berate South Korean tourists -- last week they detained and harrassed a South Korean parliament member for offering a guard an ice cream cone. This past May, North Korea abruptly (as in the day before) cancelled the test run of the North-South railroad because of "political instability" in South Korea. Even at the Kaesong Industrial Complex, which has been fairly stable, the workers do not get their salary directly. The South Korean companies pay the $58/month salary directly to the North Korean government, and it is completely unknown how much of that is even paid to the workers there.

So yeah, North Korea wants South Korea's investment and money. But they want it completely on their terms, and they have no qualms about breaking agreements when they feel like it. IMHO, the Sunshine Policy has resulted in very few if any changes in the attitude or condition of North Korea.

5th October 2006, 12:52 PM	#1
bozothedeathmachine Muse Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Zürich Posts: 626	If we just ignore North Korea will they go away? The semi-annual North Korean tantrum has started again. Now their version of "pay attention to me" is a nuke test. The more they go off the reservation the more it pisses off the whole world in general. Moreso it cheeses off their neighbors, especially China, who is getting more and more frustrated with them. All of the bluster after the missle test a few months ago seems to have died out rather quickly which is why they're onto this nuke business. So, what happens if we totally ignore them. Will they just fade away? Will China finally tell them to stop acting like petulant children? Or will they go completely wheels-off and start a conflagration just to get some attention?

5th October 2006, 01:31 PM	#2
Hutch A broken man on a Halifax pier, the last of Barrett's Privateers Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: About 7 Miles from the Saturn 5B Posts: 6,536	Quote: So, what happens if we totally ignore them. Will they just fade away? No Quote: Will China finally tell them to stop acting like petulant children? Maybe Quote: Or will they go completely wheels-off and start a conflagration just to get some attention? Unknown. Perhaps Unknowable.
	__________________ If sheer righteous fury could accomplish anything worthwhile, Wolverines would have inherited the Galaxy long ago." -Web DuHavel, David Weber's "Honorverse" Series

5th October 2006, 01:55 PM	#4
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,257	Originally Posted by bozothedeathmachine Will they just fade away? Old generals, not Commie regimes, just fade away. (MacArthur ref, nicely nested due to his Korea tie in) NK is now being led by a rock n roll Communist, son of Kim Jong Il, so it is more likely "to burn out, than to fade away." (Neil Young ref) DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

6th October 2006, 01:37 AM	#7
CaptainManacles Muse Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 818	We better hope, because I don't think there's really anything we can do about it. And I think trying to organize the diplomacy ourselves is just putting a bad stink on ideas that the rest of the world would jump on anyway. Hopefully China will realize having a madman with a nuke that can't reach anywhere but China is a bad idea. I think we'll be safe, but I worry for Japan.
CaptainManacles Muse Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 818

6th October 2006, 02:14 AM	#8
merentha Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 437	Originally Posted by CaptainManacles I think we'll be safe, but I worry for Japan. Nah, Japan has Gojira.
merentha Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 437

5th October 2006, 01:34 PM	#3
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,424	Originally Posted by bozothedeathmachine So, what happens if we totally ignore them. Will they just fade away? Sure, if they make a very big mistake.

5th October 2006, 04:29 PM	#5
Rob Lister Suspended Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 8,523	Originally Posted by bozothedeathmachine The semi-annual North Korean tantrum has started again. Now their version of "pay attention to me" is a nuke test. The more they go off the reservation the more it pisses off the whole world in general. Moreso it cheeses off their neighbors, especially China, who is getting more and more frustrated with them. All of the bluster after the missle test a few months ago seems to have died out rather quickly which is why they're onto this nuke business. So, what happens if we totally ignore them. Will they just fade away? Will China finally tell them to stop acting like petulant children? Or will they go completely wheels-off and start a conflagration just to get some attention? I'm pretty convinced that if everyone ignored them to the extent of cutting them off completely from all trade until such time as they complied, in full, with all requirements, then they would starve to death in a matter of months. Problem is, the really nasty ones (at the top) will be the last to starve. First to starve are the non-military population (which is pretty much what's happening know).

5th October 2006, 09:42 PM	#6
Dark Jaguar Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,666	Here's a thought experiment. What if the military just ignored their own leader and went off to persue their own interests, like an arts and crafts fair or something? That sure would be sweet...

6th October 2006, 05:39 AM	#9
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985	Interesting idea - why does everyone try to talk to Kim Jong Il as though he is the ONLY representative of NK? Perhaps if someone tried to talk to others in the NK Communist Party instead, perhaps they will get the idea (if it is not already obvious to them) that Kim is little more than an utterly unworthy pampered prat...and that they are the ones doing the pampering. In short, undermine Kim by talking to OTHER North Koreans instead. Perhaps they could be persuaded to be more sensible about things...
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985

6th October 2006, 06:17 AM	#10
bozothedeathmachine Muse Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Zürich Posts: 626	Originally Posted by Zep In short, undermine Kim by talking to OTHER North Koreans instead. Perhaps they could be persuaded to be more sensible about things... The pervasive idea seems to be that Dear Leader is NK. I imagine the US would not be able to find anyone with a serious amount of clout with the NK army that doesn't defer to Kim. That's the beauty of being able to surround yourself with sychophants. Besides, something tells me if the US approached anyone else they would only be able to do it once before that person mysteriously disappears.

6th October 2006, 06:59 AM	#11
FreeChile Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,039	Originally Posted by bozothedeathmachine The semi-annual North Korean tantrum has started again. Now their version of "pay attention to me" is a nuke test. The more they go off the reservation the more it pisses off the whole world in general. Moreso it cheeses off their neighbors, especially China, who is getting more and more frustrated with them. All of the bluster after the missle test a few months ago seems to have died out rather quickly which is why they're onto this nuke business. So, what happens if we totally ignore them. Will they just fade away? Will China finally tell them to stop acting like petulant children? Or will they go completely wheels-off and start a conflagration just to get some attention? How do you propose we ignore them? In other words, what do you mean by ignoring them? Would taking our bases out of the area be considered part of ignoring them? Likewise, would discontinuing military drills in that area be part of ignoring them?
	Last edited by FreeChile; 6th October 2006 at 07:00 AM. Reason: Added last question

6th October 2006, 08:54 AM	#12
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,189	Originally Posted by bozothedeathmachine Besides, something tells me if the US approached anyone else they would only be able to do it once before that person mysteriously disappears. Then we should be trying to approach everyone around Kim, just to get him on edge.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

6th October 2006, 09:04 AM	#13
Rob Lister Suspended Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 8,523	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Then we should be trying to approach everyone around Kim, just to get him on edge. Now THAT's a good idea. Execution of it is the hard part.

6th October 2006, 10:36 AM	#14
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,525	Seems to me that the gentler diplomacy advocated by the South Koreans may be as effective as anything. With increasing prosperity on the part of South Korea, they may be thinking at some point the North will say, "Uh, listen...Could you guys maybe build a Hyundai plant up here?"

6th October 2006, 10:57 AM	#15
DaChew Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,043	Originally Posted by bozothedeathmachine Will they just fade away? As Saddam Hussein said, "Yeah, well, where was I going to go Detroit?"
DaChew Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,043	__________________ I'm not as smart as I think I am. Most people aren't. Except me. Because I know I'm not.

6th October 2006, 11:11 AM	#16
ARubberChickenWithAPulley Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kentucky Posts: 2,152	Quote: Seems to me that the gentler diplomacy advocated by the South Koreans may be as effective as anything. With increasing prosperity on the part of South Korea, they may be thinking at some point the North will say, "Uh, listen...Could you guys maybe build a Hyundai plant up here?" The Sunshine Policy has not been particularly effective. The North has engaged in some joint ventures with South Korean companies, including at the Kaesong Industrial Complex, and at tourist sites at Kaesong, Mt. Paektu and Mr. Kumgang. These are ventures done up with legal contracts just like any normal business deal would be. North Korea, however, has no problem altering the terms on the fly when something bothers them. For example, last year Hyundai fired a top executive for embezzling over $1 million. North Korea happened to like dealing with that particular person. So, they unilaterally halved the number of tourists allowed on the trips and demanded that Hyundai reinstate the executive. They then decided to quit dealing with Hyundai altogether. They have also done things like detain and berate South Korean tourists -- last week they detained and harrassed a South Korean parliament member for offering a guard an ice cream cone. This past May, North Korea abruptly (as in the day before) cancelled the test run of the North-South railroad because of "political instability" in South Korea. Even at the Kaesong Industrial Complex, which has been fairly stable, the workers do not get their salary directly. The South Korean companies pay the $58/month salary directly to the North Korean government, and it is completely unknown how much of that is even paid to the workers there. So yeah, North Korea wants South Korea's investment and money. But they want it completely on their terms, and they have no qualms about breaking agreements when they feel like it. IMHO, the Sunshine Policy has resulted in very few if any changes in the attitude or condition of North Korea.