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Luke T. · 11th October 2006, 03:20 PM

I did not know deaf people were allowed to have a driver's license, much less drive delivery vans.

Quote:

The U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled in a class action case that United Parcel Service Inc.’s safety policy violated the Americans with Disabilities Act by prohibiting deaf employees from driving delivery vans.

UPS said it is evaluating a potential appeal of Tuesday’s ruling and that its safety policy is aimed at protecting the public and its employees. The appeals court, however, also affirmed a trial court’s injunction against UPS’ practice and denied the company’s motion to decertify the class filing the lawsuit.

I first heard about this on NPR this morning and thought I was hearing things. No pun intended.

ETA: Oops. Forgot to add the link.

Luke T. · 11th October 2006, 03:21 PM

What next, blind interior decorators?

Darth Rotor · 11th October 2006, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Luke T.

I did not know deaf people were allowed to have a driver's license, much less drive delivery vans.

I first heard about this on NPR this morning and thought I was hearing things. No pun intended.

So, do I now need to re-equip my car with a horn augmentation that flashes up a large "beep" sign to ensure my horn is "heard?" It's for the children!

*removes saftety officer hat*

DR

Lisa Simpson · 11th October 2006, 03:23 PM

Why wouldn't deaf people be allowed driver's licenses? I had a deaf teacher in college who had a driver's license. Not being able to hear is not an impediment to driving.

Luke T. · 11th October 2006, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

Why wouldn't deaf people be allowed driver's licenses? I had a deaf teacher in college who had a driver's license. Not being able to hear is not an impediment to driving.

As cell phone users prove time and time again...

Luke T. · 11th October 2006, 03:27 PM

If not being able to hear is not an impediment to driving, what is the purpose of a car horn, or police siren, or railroad crossing alarm bells?

Giz · 11th October 2006, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

Why wouldn't deaf people be allowed driver's licenses? I had a deaf teacher in college who had a driver's license. Not being able to hear is not an impediment to driving.

You can't hear other drivers horns? Can't hear police/ambulance sirens? Can't hear the screams as you reverse over someones foot?

Obviously hearing is not as essential as sight, but I would have thought it was fairly important when driving...

Luke T. · 11th October 2006, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Accident risk of deaf drivers, bioptic lens wearers, and physically handicapped drivers. R&D has conducted statistical studies of the above populations. Two studies of deaf drivers, published in 1963 and 1964 (Research Report Nos. 15 and 16), provided evidence that, under certain conditions, totally deaf drivers represented higher-than-average accident risks. These studies, which constitute the only known empirical evidence on the role of deafness in driving, have been used several times by the Federal Bureau of Motor Carrier Safety to successfully rebut legal challenges to its policy of not allowing deaf persons to drive commercial vehicles in interstate commerce.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/about/profile/rd/rde2.htm

tkingdoll · 11th October 2006, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Luke T.

As cell phone users prove time and time again...

The danger from cellphones is holding them in your hand, not listening. Otherwise car radios, CD players and passengers would also be illegal.

ETA: anyway, if a deaf delivery driver doesn't hear a horn and reverses into another car, the lawsuit will soon fix this turnaround.

Darth Rotor · 11th October 2006, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Luke T.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/about/profile/rd/rde2.htm

Drivers with their 900 watt stereos going full blast are functionally deaf, for traffic safety purposes . . . so why not let a guy get a paycheck?

DR

Lisa Simpson · 11th October 2006, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by Luke T.

If not being able to hear is not an impediment to driving, what is the purpose of a car horn, or police siren, or railroad crossing alarm bells?

Police cars and railroad crossing have lights, too.

Lisa Simpson · 11th October 2006, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Luke T.

As cell phone users prove time and time again...

The problem with talking on the cell phone is not the listening, it's the paying attention to the conversation, not the road. Did you ever see the Mythbusters where they tested this? The drivers were just as bad talking on a hands-free set as they were talking with the handset.

Luke T. · 11th October 2006, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Eight studies have examined the accident rate of hearing-impaired drivers in comparison with a control group. Studies evaluating the traffic accident patterns of a group of hearing impaired drivers and a control group of drivers with normal hearing (Table 2-5 on p. 44) have observed increased (Coppin 1964, Cook 1974), decreased (Wagner 1962, Finesilver 1962b,Ysander 1966, Roydhouse 1967, Schein 1968). and similar (Wolf, unpublished observations) occurrences of collisions among drivers with hearing loss. Almost all of the reports, though, are hampered by poor-study designs. The majority failed to adjust their results by the influence of age, sex, mileage driven, and area of residence. The most comprehensive and best-designed study in the literature was that conducted by Coppin and Peck (1964). In their report, deaf and non-deaf drivers were matched on age, sex, occupation, mileage driven, and area of residence. The accident ram for deaf men was 80% higher than that for non-deaf men. No difference was
seen between the women in the two groups.

www.fmcsa.dot.gov/documents/hearing2.pdf

Luke T. · 11th October 2006, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

Police cars and railroad crossing have lights, too.

So there is no need for sirens and bells and horns?

Luke T. · 11th October 2006, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Statistics show that deaf drivers have better accident records than the general public.

That's it. That's all this Answer Bag character says.

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/77471

Lisa Simpson · 11th October 2006, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Luke T.

So there is no need for sirens and bells and horns?

No, but not being able to hear them shouldn't be a reason to deny someone a license since those things are also equipped with lights. If hearing the sirens is sooooooooo important, let's outlaw radios, cellphone, conversation and screaming kids from cars as well.

Luke T. · 11th October 2006, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

No, but not being able to hear them shouldn't be a reason to deny someone a license since those things are also equipped with lights. If hearing the sirens is sooooooooo important, let's outlaw radios, cellphone, conversation and screaming kids from cars as well.

I think all of those things impair your driving.

And cellphones are outlawed while driving where I live.

I don't know if I'm for or against deaf drivers. If the best study they have on hand is from 1964 (!!!), I'd say it is time for a new study. Driving conditions are far, far different now than they were in 1964.

Lisa Simpson · 11th October 2006, 03:49 PM

Cellphones are outlawed? Or only handset cellphone use?

chulbert · 11th October 2006, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

The problem with talking on the cell phone is not the listening, it's the paying attention to the conversation, not the road. Did you ever see the Mythbusters where they tested this? The drivers were just as bad talking on a hands-free set as they were talking with the handset.

Exactly. I believe I read somewhere, though I don't have a citation, that it's the act of conversing is with someone who isn't there that requires the most concentration. Though having a serious conversation with a passenger can be quite distracting as well.

Kthulhu · 11th October 2006, 03:54 PM

If I remember correctly when I got my license in NH the only additional thing a deaf person required was that their car must have sideview mirrors on both sides of the car. Not that I'm deaf just that I remember reading it while studying for the test.

This Guy · 11th October 2006, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Luke T.

So there is no need for sirens and bells and horns?

Of course there is silly!

They are needed for when the blind sue for the right to drive for UPS.

Lisa Simpson · 11th October 2006, 04:00 PM

I don't believe this is ADA gone awry. However, for ADA gone awry, the CA DMV was forced to give a legally blind man a driver's license after he had already hit a pedestrian. He had some eye disease which caused him to lose peripheral vision. A pedestrian stepped off the curb and he couldn't see. His license was taken away, but he sued, and under the ADA, he had to be given back his driver's license.

AmateurScientist · 11th October 2006, 04:20 PM

I seem to recall a prominent deaf composer in Germany about 200 years ago.

AS

TragicMonkey · 11th October 2006, 04:23 PM

If the deaf shouldn't drive, neither should the colorblind. How can they tell what the traffic signal says?

AmateurScientist · 11th October 2006, 04:28 PM

Yeah, and what about left-handed persons? They can't even reach the gear shift without playing Twister. Freaks.

AS

TragicMonkey · 11th October 2006, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by AmateurScientist

Yeah, and what about left-handed persons? They can't even reach the gear shift without playing Twister. Freaks.

AS

What's freakish is that you referred to the left-handed as "persons". Clearly they are monsters.

AmateurScientist · 11th October 2006, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

What's freakish is that you referred to the left-handed as "persons". Clearly they are monsters.

Yes, and I guess that makes me a freak too. I'm so ashamed. Well, at least I'm not left-handed.

AS

tkingdoll · 11th October 2006, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by AmateurScientist

I seem to recall a prominent deaf composer in Germany about 200 years ago.

AS

But was he allowed to drive?

Gotta ask the tough questions.

Luke T. · 11th October 2006, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by AmateurScientist

I seem to recall a prominent deaf composer in Germany about 200 years ago.

AS

But did he compose while driving?

I hear he is de-composing now.

Luke T. · 11th October 2006, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

If the deaf shouldn't drive, neither should the colorblind. How can they tell what the traffic signal says?

And how can a deaf person hear talking traffic signals?

Luke T. · 11th October 2006, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

I don't believe this is ADA gone awry. However, for ADA gone awry, the CA DMV was forced to give a legally blind man a driver's license after he had already hit a pedestrian. He had some eye disease which caused him to lose peripheral vision. A pedestrian stepped off the curb and he couldn't see. His license was taken away, but he sued, and under the ADA, he had to be given back his driver's license.

So THAT's the guy they put Braille on drive-thru ATMs for!

Luke T. · 11th October 2006, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

Cellphones are outlawed? Or only handset cellphone use?

I believe only handset cellphone use. I have not looked into it.

Brown · 11th October 2006, 05:19 PM

There are a lot of deaf folks in my family (my grandparents and many of their siblings were deaf). Some of them didn't drive at all. Those that did drive were good drivers.

One of my great-uncles was a deaf draftsman. He was a very good one. He got his position and training through a series of unpleasant events, namely, World War II. Because of the war, able-bodied men were called overseas, and my great uncle received the opportunity to develop a valuable skill for a manufacturer. He was so good at what he did, he continued in this position after the war and until his retirement. Yeah, he was deaf, but he was a good employee.

My father spent much of his life helping deaf people find jobs, including jobs in which driving was part of the occupation. In pre-ADA days, he had to deal with a lot of prejudice. To some people, it didn't matter whether the candidate was smart, skilled or a good worker. If he was deaf, he was "unqualified." This wasn't fair, and one function of the ADA was to urge employers to base decisions upon ability, not upon prejudice.

Originally Posted by Luke T.

I don't know if I'm for or against deaf drivers. If the best study they have on hand is from 1964 (!!!), I'd say it is time for a new study. Driving conditions are far, far different now than they were in 1964.

Luke T. is right to say that driving conditions are far, far different now from what they were in 1964. They are, in general, far better for deaf people. Visual cues associated with hazards have been greatly improved. In addition, cars are easier to handle, with automatic transmissions and power controls now being widely available.

As for the effect of the ADA on the particular matter in question, I have not read the court's decision and have no firm opinion. Based upon the news report, however, it seems to be that the UPS policy was to hold all deaf drivers as automatically "unqualified," even if they could prove that they were good drivers. The article suggests that the issue may have revolved around who has the burden of proof.

a_unique_person · 12th October 2006, 02:32 AM

Originally Posted by AmateurScientist

Yeah, and what about left-handed persons? They can't even reach the gear shift without playing Twister. Freaks.

AS

I always change gears with my left hand, and I'm right handed.

a_unique_person · 12th October 2006, 02:39 AM

Originally Posted by Brown

There are a lot of deaf folks in my family (my grandparents and many of their siblings were deaf). Some of them didn't drive at all. Those that did drive were good drivers.

I have deaf siblings and in-laws. Those that can drive have to pass a special test. Many of them aren't allowed to drive because they also have vision problems. (Usher's Syndrome is a bastard). My deaf brother in law actually ran over killed an old lady. He watched in horror as he drove at the speed limit, down a suburban street, and an old lady walked straight out in front of him.

Darat · 12th October 2006, 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

I always change gears with my left hand, and I'm right handed.

As do all normal people....

Can't see

any reason a deaf person shouldn't be allowed to drive. Do wonder in the UK how a profoundly deaf person could take a driving test -anyone know?

Ah the power of the internet - here I go answering my own question: http://www.rnid.org.uk/information_r...ing_people.htm

Quote:

...snip...
You will take the same driving test as everyone else, but you should let the DSA know that you are deaf when you book the test. This allows the DSA to give you extra time so you can explain to the examiner about your communication needs and agree signals – for example for turning left or right or the three-point turn – that you will be able to understand during the driving test.

You are allowed to take an interpreter with you for the practical test. They must not be a driving instructor and they must be at least 16 years old.

...snip...

In this instance I would say UPS is unfairly discriminating if they have a blanket "no deaf people".

AmateurScientist · 12th October 2006, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

As do all normal people....

But you have to drive on the wrong side of the road and have backwards, mirrored cars to do it! Freaks!

And Aussies like AUP do it upside down too! Through the looking glass indeed.

AS

ponderingturtle · 12th October 2006, 05:52 AM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

No, but not being able to hear them shouldn't be a reason to deny someone a license since those things are also equipped with lights. If hearing the sirens is sooooooooo important, let's outlaw radios, cellphone, conversation and screaming kids from cars as well.

In NY, having the lights on in an emergency vehical is not enough to violate traffic laws, you have to have the siren on when say going through red lights.

Lisa Simpson · 12th October 2006, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

My deaf brother in law actually ran over killed an old lady. He watched in horror as he drove at the speed limit, down a suburban street, and an old lady walked straight out in front of him.

But do you think that had anything to do with him being deaf? Or could the same thing have happened to a hearing driver?

zakur · 12th October 2006, 06:08 AM

This is not the first time the UPS has been sued by deaf workers:

http://www.raggededgemagazine.com/drn/07_03.shtml#580

Other ADA-related class action lawsuits against UPS:

http://www.inclusiondaily.com/archiv...91004paups.htm
http://www.raggededgemagazine.com/drn/08_04.html#760

11th October 2006, 03:20 PM	#1
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	UPS Must Hire Deaf Drivers. ADA Gone Awry? I did not know deaf people were allowed to have a driver's license, much less drive delivery vans. Quote: The U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled in a class action case that United Parcel Service Inc.’s safety policy violated the Americans with Disabilities Act by prohibiting deaf employees from driving delivery vans. UPS said it is evaluating a potential appeal of Tuesday’s ruling and that its safety policy is aimed at protecting the public and its employees. The appeals court, however, also affirmed a trial court’s injunction against UPS’ practice and denied the company’s motion to decertify the class filing the lawsuit. I first heard about this on NPR this morning and thought I was hearing things. No pun intended. ETA: Oops. Forgot to add the link.
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	Last edited by Luke T.; 11th October 2006 at 03:23 PM.

11th October 2006, 03:21 PM	#2
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	What next, blind interior decorators?
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759

11th October 2006, 03:22 PM	#3
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,371	Originally Posted by Luke T. I did not know deaf people were allowed to have a driver's license, much less drive delivery vans. I first heard about this on NPR this morning and thought I was hearing things. No pun intended. So, do I now need to re-equip my car with a horn augmentation that flashes up a large "beep" sign to ensure my horn is "heard?" It's for the children! removes saftety officer hat DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

11th October 2006, 03:23 PM	#4
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,109	Why wouldn't deaf people be allowed driver's licenses? I had a deaf teacher in college who had a driver's license. Not being able to hear is not an impediment to driving.
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

11th October 2006, 03:27 PM	#6
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	If not being able to hear is not an impediment to driving, what is the purpose of a car horn, or police siren, or railroad crossing alarm bells?
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759

11th October 2006, 03:25 PM	#5
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson Why wouldn't deaf people be allowed driver's licenses? I had a deaf teacher in college who had a driver's license. Not being able to hear is not an impediment to driving. As cell phone users prove time and time again...
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759

11th October 2006, 03:28 PM	#7
Giz Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: UK/US Posts: 3,518	Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson Why wouldn't deaf people be allowed driver's licenses? I had a deaf teacher in college who had a driver's license. Not being able to hear is not an impediment to driving. You can't hear other drivers horns? Can't hear police/ambulance sirens? Can't hear the screams as you reverse over someones foot? Obviously hearing is not as essential as sight, but I would have thought it was fairly important when driving...

11th October 2006, 03:29 PM	#8
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	Quote: Accident risk of deaf drivers, bioptic lens wearers, and physically handicapped drivers. R&D has conducted statistical studies of the above populations. Two studies of deaf drivers, published in 1963 and 1964 (Research Report Nos. 15 and 16), provided evidence that, under certain conditions, totally deaf drivers represented higher-than-average accident risks. These studies, which constitute the only known empirical evidence on the role of deafness in driving, have been used several times by the Federal Bureau of Motor Carrier Safety to successfully rebut legal challenges to its policy of not allowing deaf persons to drive commercial vehicles in interstate commerce. http://www.dmv.ca.gov/about/profile/rd/rde2.htm
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759

11th October 2006, 03:30 PM	#9
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,471	Originally Posted by Luke T. As cell phone users prove time and time again... The danger from cellphones is holding them in your hand, not listening. Otherwise car radios, CD players and passengers would also be illegal. ETA: anyway, if a deaf delivery driver doesn't hear a horn and reverses into another car, the lawsuit will soon fix this turnaround.
	__________________ www.stormmovie.net Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie

11th October 2006, 03:31 PM	#10
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,371	Originally Posted by Luke T. http://www.dmv.ca.gov/about/profile/rd/rde2.htm Drivers with their 900 watt stereos going full blast are functionally deaf, for traffic safety purposes . . . so why not let a guy get a paycheck? DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

11th October 2006, 03:32 PM	#11
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,109	Originally Posted by Luke T. If not being able to hear is not an impediment to driving, what is the purpose of a car horn, or police siren, or railroad crossing alarm bells? Police cars and railroad crossing have lights, too.
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

11th October 2006, 03:33 PM	#12
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,109	Originally Posted by Luke T. As cell phone users prove time and time again... The problem with talking on the cell phone is not the listening, it's the paying attention to the conversation, not the road. Did you ever see the Mythbusters where they tested this? The drivers were just as bad talking on a hands-free set as they were talking with the handset.
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

11th October 2006, 03:38 PM	#13
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	Quote: Eight studies have examined the accident rate of hearing-impaired drivers in comparison with a control group. Studies evaluating the traffic accident patterns of a group of hearing impaired drivers and a control group of drivers with normal hearing (Table 2-5 on p. 44) have observed increased (Coppin 1964, Cook 1974), decreased (Wagner 1962, Finesilver 1962b,Ysander 1966, Roydhouse 1967, Schein 1968). and similar (Wolf, unpublished observations) occurrences of collisions among drivers with hearing loss. Almost all of the reports, though, are hampered by poor-study designs. The majority failed to adjust their results by the influence of age, sex, mileage driven, and area of residence. The most comprehensive and best-designed study in the literature was that conducted by Coppin and Peck (1964). In their report, deaf and non-deaf drivers were matched on age, sex, occupation, mileage driven, and area of residence. The accident ram for deaf men was 80% higher than that for non-deaf men. No difference was seen between the women in the two groups. www.fmcsa.dot.gov/documents/hearing2.pdf
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759

11th October 2006, 03:39 PM	#14
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson Police cars and railroad crossing have lights, too. So there is no need for sirens and bells and horns?
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759

11th October 2006, 03:42 PM	#15
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	Quote: Statistics show that deaf drivers have better accident records than the general public. That's it. That's all this Answer Bag character says. http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/77471
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759

11th October 2006, 03:44 PM	#16
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,109	Originally Posted by Luke T. So there is no need for sirens and bells and horns? No, but not being able to hear them shouldn't be a reason to deny someone a license since those things are also equipped with lights. If hearing the sirens is sooooooooo important, let's outlaw radios, cellphone, conversation and screaming kids from cars as well.
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

11th October 2006, 03:48 PM	#17
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson No, but not being able to hear them shouldn't be a reason to deny someone a license since those things are also equipped with lights. If hearing the sirens is sooooooooo important, let's outlaw radios, cellphone, conversation and screaming kids from cars as well. I think all of those things impair your driving. And cellphones are outlawed while driving where I live. I don't know if I'm for or against deaf drivers. If the best study they have on hand is from 1964 (!!!), I'd say it is time for a new study. Driving conditions are far, far different now than they were in 1964.
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759

11th October 2006, 03:49 PM	#18
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,109	Cellphones are outlawed? Or only handset cellphone use?
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

11th October 2006, 03:52 PM	#19
chulbert Muse Join Date: May 2002 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 725	Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson The problem with talking on the cell phone is not the listening, it's the paying attention to the conversation, not the road. Did you ever see the Mythbusters where they tested this? The drivers were just as bad talking on a hands-free set as they were talking with the handset. Exactly. I believe I read somewhere, though I don't have a citation, that it's the act of conversing is with someone who isn't there that requires the most concentration. Though having a serious conversation with a passenger can be quite distracting as well.

11th October 2006, 03:54 PM	#20
Kthulhu Scholar Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 56	If I remember correctly when I got my license in NH the only additional thing a deaf person required was that their car must have sideview mirrors on both sides of the car. Not that I'm deaf just that I remember reading it while studying for the test.
Kthulhu Scholar Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 56

11th October 2006, 03:56 PM	#21
This Guy Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: On the corner of WALK and DON'T WALK Posts: 2,000	Originally Posted by Luke T. So there is no need for sirens and bells and horns? Of course there is silly! They are needed for when the blind sue for the right to drive for UPS.
	__________________ I'm lost. I've gone to find me. If I should return before I get back, please ask me to wait!

11th October 2006, 04:00 PM	#22
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,109	I don't believe this is ADA gone awry. However, for ADA gone awry, the CA DMV was forced to give a legally blind man a driver's license after he had already hit a pedestrian. He had some eye disease which caused him to lose peripheral vision. A pedestrian stepped off the curb and he couldn't see. His license was taken away, but he sued, and under the ADA, he had to be given back his driver's license.
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

11th October 2006, 04:20 PM	#23
AmateurScientist JREF Kid Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,325	I seem to recall a prominent deaf composer in Germany about 200 years ago. AS

11th October 2006, 04:23 PM	#24
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,281	If the deaf shouldn't drive, neither should the colorblind. How can they tell what the traffic signal says?
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

11th October 2006, 04:28 PM	#25
AmateurScientist JREF Kid Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,325	Yeah, and what about left-handed persons? They can't even reach the gear shift without playing Twister. Freaks. AS

11th October 2006, 04:30 PM	#26
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,281	Originally Posted by AmateurScientist Yeah, and what about left-handed persons? They can't even reach the gear shift without playing Twister. Freaks. AS What's freakish is that you referred to the left-handed as "persons". Clearly they are monsters.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

11th October 2006, 04:33 PM	#27
AmateurScientist JREF Kid Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,325	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey What's freakish is that you referred to the left-handed as "persons". Clearly they are monsters. Yes, and I guess that makes me a freak too. I'm so ashamed. Well, at least I'm not left-handed. AS

11th October 2006, 04:55 PM	#28
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,471	Originally Posted by AmateurScientist I seem to recall a prominent deaf composer in Germany about 200 years ago. AS But was he allowed to drive? Gotta ask the tough questions.
	__________________ www.stormmovie.net Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie

11th October 2006, 05:05 PM	#29
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	Originally Posted by AmateurScientist I seem to recall a prominent deaf composer in Germany about 200 years ago. AS But did he compose while driving? I hear he is de-composing now.
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759

11th October 2006, 05:06 PM	#30
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey If the deaf shouldn't drive, neither should the colorblind. How can they tell what the traffic signal says? And how can a deaf person hear talking traffic signals?
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759

11th October 2006, 05:07 PM	#31
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson I don't believe this is ADA gone awry. However, for ADA gone awry, the CA DMV was forced to give a legally blind man a driver's license after he had already hit a pedestrian. He had some eye disease which caused him to lose peripheral vision. A pedestrian stepped off the curb and he couldn't see. His license was taken away, but he sued, and under the ADA, he had to be given back his driver's license. So THAT's the guy they put Braille on drive-thru ATMs for!
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759

11th October 2006, 05:09 PM	#32
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson Cellphones are outlawed? Or only handset cellphone use? I believe only handset cellphone use. I have not looked into it.
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759

11th October 2006, 05:19 PM	#33
Brown Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Twin Cities, Canada Posts: 12,293	There are a lot of deaf folks in my family (my grandparents and many of their siblings were deaf). Some of them didn't drive at all. Those that did drive were good drivers. One of my great-uncles was a deaf draftsman. He was a very good one. He got his position and training through a series of unpleasant events, namely, World War II. Because of the war, able-bodied men were called overseas, and my great uncle received the opportunity to develop a valuable skill for a manufacturer. He was so good at what he did, he continued in this position after the war and until his retirement. Yeah, he was deaf, but he was a good employee. My father spent much of his life helping deaf people find jobs, including jobs in which driving was part of the occupation. In pre-ADA days, he had to deal with a lot of prejudice. To some people, it didn't matter whether the candidate was smart, skilled or a good worker. If he was deaf, he was "unqualified." This wasn't fair, and one function of the ADA was to urge employers to base decisions upon ability, not upon prejudice. Originally Posted by Luke T. I don't know if I'm for or against deaf drivers. If the best study they have on hand is from 1964 (!!!), I'd say it is time for a new study. Driving conditions are far, far different now than they were in 1964. Luke T. is right to say that driving conditions are far, far different now from what they were in 1964. They are, in general, far better for deaf people. Visual cues associated with hazards have been greatly improved. In addition, cars are easier to handle, with automatic transmissions and power controls now being widely available. As for the effect of the ADA on the particular matter in question, I have not read the court's decision and have no firm opinion. Based upon the news report, however, it seems to be that the UPS policy was to hold all deaf drivers as automatically "unqualified," even if they could prove that they were good drivers. The article suggests that the issue may have revolved around who has the burden of proof.
	__________________ Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice

12th October 2006, 02:32 AM	#34
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,463	Originally Posted by AmateurScientist Yeah, and what about left-handed persons? They can't even reach the gear shift without playing Twister. Freaks. AS I always change gears with my left hand, and I'm right handed.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

12th October 2006, 02:39 AM	#35
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,463	Originally Posted by Brown There are a lot of deaf folks in my family (my grandparents and many of their siblings were deaf). Some of them didn't drive at all. Those that did drive were good drivers. I have deaf siblings and in-laws. Those that can drive have to pass a special test. Many of them aren't allowed to drive because they also have vision problems. (Usher's Syndrome is a bastard). My deaf brother in law actually ran over killed an old lady. He watched in horror as he drove at the speed limit, down a suburban street, and an old lady walked straight out in front of him.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes