please debunk 'the second debris field for 93' please

alexg · 21st October 2006, 08:03 PM

I've searched the forum but there is so much to go through. Was an engine found 2000 ft away, if so why? I get the light debris was carried by the wind but any thought on this will be appreciated too. Thanks.

Bell · 21st October 2006, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by alexg

I've searched the forum but there is so much to go through. Was an engine found 2000 ft away, if so why? I get the light debris was carried by the wind but any thought on this will be appreciated too. Thanks.

You mean the engine that was found in/near a lake?

I've never studied that, but I guess the stresses on the airplane, flying upside down at times, could have ripped off one of the engines, which then continued on his own way.

But that's just my guesstimate...

Gravy · 21st October 2006, 08:16 PM

The bottom line is that the "8-mile debris field" is completely bogus. There were a few small pieces of paper and scraps of nylon that made it that far from the crash site, borne by the wind, and some slightly heavier debris in the more immediate area. A large part of one engine bounced about 300 yards downhill, in the direction of impact. According to the plane's flight data recorder, the engines and other systems were operating within normal parameters when the plane struck the ground at a 40-degree angle, upside-down, at 580 mph.

alexg · 21st October 2006, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by Gravy

The bottom line is that the "8-mile debris field" is completely bogus. There were a few small pieces of paper and scraps of nylon that made it that far from the crash site, borne by the wind, and some slightly heavier debris in the more immediate area. A large part of one engine bounced about 300 yards downhill, in the direction of impact. According to the plane's flight data recorder, the engines and other systems were operating within normal parameters when the plane struck the ground at a 40-degree angle, upside-down, at 580 mph.

Thanks all. That the FDR showed all engines operational would seem to defeat any idea of the engine having been shot off with a sidewinder, eh?
Where might I get a link to the FDR data for 93 if this is not too much tio ask? Thanks again.

Bell · 21st October 2006, 08:26 PM

Ehm... how would I come up with the notion of an engine found in/near a lake?

I want somebody to debunk me, real bad...

T.A.M. · 21st October 2006, 08:28 PM

ever skim a flat rock off the water?

TAM

Bell · 21st October 2006, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by T.A.M.

ever skim a flat rock off the water?

TAM

That's not what I meant. I remember reading somewhere (prolly on a CT site

) that an engine of the plane was found X distance away from the crash site. IIRC it was said to be in/near a lake?

alexg · 21st October 2006, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by Bell

That's not what I meant. I remember reading somewhere (prolly on a CT site

) that an engine of the plane was found X distance away from the crash site. IIRC it was said to be in/near a lake?

I heard the tiny amount of lightweight debris was in a lake 3 miles away and the engine was only 2000 feet away, no mention of lake.

alexg · 21st October 2006, 08:48 PM

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/e...witnesses.html

Here a number of eyewitnesses report loud sounds before impact and of course CTs are yelling 'missile' - any ideas?

Gravy · 21st October 2006, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Bell

Ehm... how would I come up with the notion of an engine found in/near a lake?

I want somebody to debunk me, real bad...

It was a little pond, towards the lake.

Bell · 21st October 2006, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by alexg

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/e...witnesses.html

Here a number of eyewitnesses report loud sounds before impact and of course CTs are yelling 'missile' - any ideas?

I live in the path of one of the approach routes for Schiphol airport (the Netherlands). Sometimes the planes sound like they are coming straight at my appartment building, sometimes they sound likes trucks, sometimes the fly over high, sometimes very low. The engines of the planes can make all kind of sounds. Is the throttle open or closed? Or is it opened or closed right at the moment you hear the plane?

gumboot · 21st October 2006, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by Gravy

It was a little pond, towards the lake.

It is interesting how "piece of engine 300m away in pond" turns into "second debris field including engine found miles away in lake".

Chinese Whispers is a CTers friend.

-Gumboot

Gravy · 21st October 2006, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by alexg

Thanks all. That the FDR showed all engines operational would seem to defeat any idea of the engine having been shot off with a sidewinder, eh?
Where might I get a link to the FDR data for 93 if this is not too much tio ask? Thanks again.

Here's a link in this gumboot post: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...9&postcount=76

Bell · 21st October 2006, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Gravy

It was a little pond, towards the lake.

And not that far away from the crash site I guess? At least not many thousands of feet (meters?)?

alexg · 21st October 2006, 08:57 PM

May be a stupid question but any chance it would break sound barrier in a full on dive?

ETA I suppose not, FDR didn't indicate that much speed did it?

Bell · 21st October 2006, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by gumboot

It is interesting how "piece of engine 300m away in pond" turns into "second debris field including engine found miles away in lake".

Chinese Whispers is a CTers friend.

-Gumboot

Ah! That's all there's to it? You make debunking too easy

Gravy · 21st October 2006, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by alexg

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/e...witnesses.html

Here a number of eyewitnesses report loud sounds before impact and of course CTs are yelling 'missile' - any ideas?

My idea is that none of those people had ever heard an airliner screaming overhead at low altitude at 500 knots. Remember that many of the CT sites haven't been updated since the CVR, FDR and radar info was released...nor will they ever be, most likely.

gumboot · 21st October 2006, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by alexg

May be a stupid question but any chance it would break sound barrier in a full on dive?

I imagine it's possible... though I suspect at low altitude the wings would tear off first. However I don't believe UA93 went supersonic at any point.

In my experience with eye witnesses, they are very unreliable. Basically, if everyone gives a variation on a particular detail, you can be pretty confident that detail is accurate. If one or two people mention a particular thing, that testimony alone is not sufficient to substantiate the accuracy.

In other words, if every witness of UA93's crash reported hearing explosions before impact, I'd say there was something to their claims. If 1% of witnesses report explosions, I'd say it's likely they're just mistaken.

-Gumboot

Gravy · 21st October 2006, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by Bell

I live in the path of one of the approach routes for Schiphol airport (the Netherlands). Sometimes the planes sound like they are coming straight at my appartment building, sometimes they sound likes trucks, sometimes the fly over high, sometimes very low. The engines of the planes can make all kind of sounds. Is the throttle open or closed? Or is it opened or closed right at the moment you hear the plane?

If they're bothering you, you can make them change their flight path by pointing a laser at the cockpit.

Disclaimer to FAA, Interpol, etc.:

Kryptos · 21st October 2006, 09:09 PM

Here's the pond, I think, on the left:

This (attempt at making a panoramic) looks to the east (left) from the Flight 93 memorial towards the pond and to the south towards where the plane crashed down by the trees (right).

Here's the full size image. (2.2 mb)

Bell · 21st October 2006, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Gravy

If they're bothering you, you can make them change their flight path by pointing a laser at the cockpit.

Disclaimer to FAA, Interpol, etc.:

As for now, I'll just try to talk them into taking another flight path as soon as I pick them up with my fillings.

Bell · 21st October 2006, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Debunk911Myths

Here's the pond, I think, on the left:

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics...pano-small.jpg

This (attempt at making a panoramic) looks to the east (left) from the Flight 93 memorial towards the pond and to the south towards where the plane crashed down by the trees (right).

Here's the full size image.

Thanks for posting that, Kate (the link doesn't work btw).

Could somebody tell what part of the engine was found in that pound?

MarkyX · 21st October 2006, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by alexg

Thanks all. That the FDR showed all engines operational would seem to defeat any idea of the engine having been shot off with a sidewinder, eh?
Where might I get a link to the FDR data for 93 if this is not too much tio ask? Thanks again.

http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEB...B196/doc04.pdf

Kryptos · 21st October 2006, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Bell

Thanks for posting that, Kate (the link doesn't work btw).

Could somebody tell what part of the engine was found in that pound?

Fixed the link (it's a big file, 2.2 mb)

What part of the engine?

Can't find much on that, but this quote from a newspaper article:

Quote:

A section of the engine, weighing almost a tonne, was found on the bed of a pond 200 metres downhill. [1]

And, this figure from Popular Mechanics, which tells me that I pointed out the wrong pond. There's another smaller pond, downwind (and down flightpath) where the engine part was found.

Pond #1 is in my picture, and pond #2 is where the engine part was found.

Kryptos · 21st October 2006, 10:18 PM

...the hill also slopes down from the crash impact site to the pond

so the engine part was found ~200 meters:

* down wind
* down flight path
* down hill

from the point of impact.

Bell · 21st October 2006, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by Debunk911Myths

Fixed the link (it's a big file, 2.2 mb)

What part of the engine?

Can't find much on that, but this quote from a newspaper article:

And, this figure from Popular Mechanics, which tells me that I pointed out the wrong pond. There's another smaller pond, downwind (and down flightpath) where the engine part was found.

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics...light93map.jpg

Pond #1 is in my picture, and pond #2 is where the engine part was found.

That seems totaly possible to me.

Very good picture, btw.

LashL · 21st October 2006, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Bell

I live in the path of one of the approach routes for Schiphol airport (the Netherlands). Sometimes the planes sound like they are coming straight at my appartment building, sometimes they sound likes trucks, sometimes the fly over high, sometimes very low. The engines of the planes can make all kind of sounds. Is the throttle open or closed? Or is it opened or closed right at the moment you hear the plane?

Hey, I've been on flights into Schiphol a few times ~ sorry to have disturbed you

But on one of those trips, several years ago, I celebrated my 25th birthday in Amsterdam, so.... sorry, but it was worth it

/derail

Bell · 21st October 2006, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by LashL

Hey, I've been on flights into Schiphol a few times ~ sorry to have disturbed you

A tat late, don't you think? I'll never sleep again.

ETA: I'm not gonna ask HOW you celebrated that birthday in Amsterdam...

LashL · 21st October 2006, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by Bell

A tat late, don't you think? I'll never sleep again.

ETA: I'm not gonna ask HOW you celebrated that birthday in Amsterdam...

I admit it ~ we didn't have the appropriate hush kits on the plane I was on, for landing after hours... but damn, what a birthday. (NOT what you're thinking!)

Edit to add: We did stroll through the red light district but didn't partake in those particular wares. The real fun was in (after finding and enjoying the restaurant that had been recommended as serving the best prime rib and steak dinners known to mankind, complete with the menu being written on chalk boards on the doors to the restrooms), the all night long trek across bridges and such to the numerous staggered-hours bars, before finally making it back to the hotel at nearly dawn... and then meeting and talking to Desmond Tutu in the lobby. Talk about a bizarre day and night!

qarnos · 22nd October 2006, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by LashL

I admit it ~ we didn't have the appropriate hush kits on the plane I was on, for landing after hours... but damn, what a birthday. (NOT what you're thinking!)

Edit to add: We did stroll through the red light district but didn't partake in those particular wares. The real fun was in (after finding and enjoying the restaurant that had been recommended as serving the best prime rib and steak dinners known to mankind, complete with the menu being written on chalk boards on the doors to the restrooms), the all night long trek across bridges and such to the numerous staggered-hours bars, before finally making it back to the hotel at nearly dawn... and then meeting and talking to Desmond Tutu in the lobby. Talk about a bizarre day and night!

I was born in Holland but moved over to Australia when I was 3. I'm a citizen of Great Britain but have never set foot in the country. Work that one out!

The_Fire · 22nd October 2006, 03:33 AM

Now that we are dealing with the flight 93 flightpath, could someone point me to the coordinates? I got something I wanna check out in connection with the "Second aircraft" claim............

alexg · 22nd October 2006, 09:48 AM

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/flight_93.html

The above is the Bollyn article which, if you take it at face value, indicates all sorts of planes were flying around Shanksville, including a Warthog. I don't mean to spam the board with this stuff but I'm debating this guy and I'm a little new at debunking. Anyone already debunk this article? Thanks.

The_Fire · 22nd October 2006, 10:14 AM

the trail I'm looking at is a small, local airport. I'm trying to figure out how close the two places are since an airport could explain various sightings of aircraft. I'm not 100 on how these things run, but I would believe that with the closing of the airspace that day, all small airborn planes within the US airspace would attempt to land at the nearest airstrip capable of their size.

Gravy · 22nd October 2006, 11:50 AM

Here's some info on the two planes that were in the area:

The Dassault Falcon 20
http://www.post-gazette.com/headline...rjetnat5p5.asp
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=341

The C-130 crew's report
http://tinyurl.com/mg4xh

Kryptos · 22nd October 2006, 12:20 PM

FBI Explains Other Planes At Flight 93 Crash - WTAE-TV (September 15, 2001)

"WTAE-TV reported that the mystery pilot in the white plane may have been an area farmer.

James K. Will, a Berlin, Pa., farmer who pilots a white Cessna with red stripes and who has an airstrip near his farm, told Team 4 reporter Paul Van Osdol that he circled the scene about 45 minutes after the crash.

Will said he had just returned from Altoona and, when he'd heard about the crash, flew to the site to take photos of the wreckage. Pennsylvania State Police said that his plane may have been the one that many saw.

Will's flight was intercepted by a state police helicopter and was escorted to the Johnstown-area airport. His plane was searched and he was released."

Gravy · 22nd October 2006, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Debunk911Myths

FBI Explains Other Planes At Flight 93 Crash - WTAE-TV (September 15, 2001)

"WTAE-TV reported that the mystery pilot in the white plane may have been an area farmer.

James K. Will, a Berlin, Pa., farmer who pilots a white Cessna with red stripes and who has an airstrip near his farm, told Team 4 reporter Paul Van Osdol that he circled the scene about 45 minutes after the crash.

Will said he had just returned from Altoona and, when he'd heard about the crash, flew to the site to take photos of the wreckage. Pennsylvania State Police said that his plane may have been the one that many saw.

Will's flight was intercepted by a state police helicopter and was escorted to the Johnstown-area airport. His plane was searched and he was released."

Wow, somebody didn't get the no-fly order! I bet he longs for the barnstorming days.

CurtC · 23rd October 2006, 06:41 AM

But of course Farmer Will's small plane would not have been the same small white plane reported by many witnesses very shortly after the crash. We know that was the Falcon which Gravy linked to.

I'm sure that Farmer Will thought he might have been the plane, but he prolly didn't know about the Falcon there long before him.

21st October 2006, 08:03 PM	#1
alexg Muse Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 534	please debunk 'the second debris field for 93' please I've searched the forum but there is so much to go through. Was an engine found 2000 ft away, if so why? I get the light debris was carried by the wind but any thought on this will be appreciated too. Thanks.
alexg Muse Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 534

21st October 2006, 08:16 PM	#3
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,136	The bottom line is that the "8-mile debris field" is completely bogus. There were a few small pieces of paper and scraps of nylon that made it that far from the crash site, borne by the wind, and some slightly heavier debris in the more immediate area. A large part of one engine bounced about 300 yards downhill, in the direction of impact. According to the plane's flight data recorder, the engines and other systems were operating within normal parameters when the plane struck the ground at a 40-degree angle, upside-down, at 580 mph.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

21st October 2006, 08:25 PM	#4
alexg Muse Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 534	Originally Posted by Gravy The bottom line is that the "8-mile debris field" is completely bogus. There were a few small pieces of paper and scraps of nylon that made it that far from the crash site, borne by the wind, and some slightly heavier debris in the more immediate area. A large part of one engine bounced about 300 yards downhill, in the direction of impact. According to the plane's flight data recorder, the engines and other systems were operating within normal parameters when the plane struck the ground at a 40-degree angle, upside-down, at 580 mph. Thanks all. That the FDR showed all engines operational would seem to defeat any idea of the engine having been shot off with a sidewinder, eh? Where might I get a link to the FDR data for 93 if this is not too much tio ask? Thanks again.
alexg Muse Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 534

21st October 2006, 08:26 PM	#5
Bell beautiful freak Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 20,486	Ehm... how would I come up with the notion of an engine found in/near a lake? I want somebody to debunk me, real bad...
	__________________ Every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me, that's on the worst day of my life. I♥NY You gotta love cops.

21st October 2006, 08:37 PM	#7
Bell beautiful freak Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 20,486	Originally Posted by T.A.M. ever skim a flat rock off the water? TAM That's not what I meant. I remember reading somewhere (prolly on a CT site ) that an engine of the plane was found X distance away from the crash site. IIRC it was said to be in/near a lake?
	__________________ Every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me, that's on the worst day of my life. I♥NY You gotta love cops.

21st October 2006, 08:15 PM	#2
Bell beautiful freak Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 20,486	Originally Posted by alexg I've searched the forum but there is so much to go through. Was an engine found 2000 ft away, if so why? I get the light debris was carried by the wind but any thought on this will be appreciated too. Thanks. You mean the engine that was found in/near a lake? I've never studied that, but I guess the stresses on the airplane, flying upside down at times, could have ripped off one of the engines, which then continued on his own way. But that's just my guesstimate...
	__________________ Every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me, that's on the worst day of my life. I♥NY You gotta love cops.

21st October 2006, 08:28 PM	#6
T.A.M. Keeper of the Kool-Vax Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Far East...of Canada Posts: 20,816	ever skim a flat rock off the water? TAM

21st October 2006, 08:41 PM	#8
alexg Muse Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 534	Originally Posted by Bell That's not what I meant. I remember reading somewhere (prolly on a CT site ) that an engine of the plane was found X distance away from the crash site. IIRC it was said to be in/near a lake? I heard the tiny amount of lightweight debris was in a lake 3 miles away and the engine was only 2000 feet away, no mention of lake.
alexg Muse Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 534

21st October 2006, 08:48 PM	#9
alexg Muse Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 534	http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/e...witnesses.html Here a number of eyewitnesses report loud sounds before impact and of course CTs are yelling 'missile' - any ideas?
alexg Muse Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 534

21st October 2006, 08:50 PM	#10
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,136	Originally Posted by Bell Ehm... how would I come up with the notion of an engine found in/near a lake? I want somebody to debunk me, real bad... It was a little pond, towards the lake.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

21st October 2006, 08:54 PM	#11
Bell beautiful freak Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 20,486	Originally Posted by alexg http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/e...witnesses.html Here a number of eyewitnesses report loud sounds before impact and of course CTs are yelling 'missile' - any ideas? I live in the path of one of the approach routes for Schiphol airport (the Netherlands). Sometimes the planes sound like they are coming straight at my appartment building, sometimes they sound likes trucks, sometimes the fly over high, sometimes very low. The engines of the planes can make all kind of sounds. Is the throttle open or closed? Or is it opened or closed right at the moment you hear the plane?
	__________________ Every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me, that's on the worst day of my life. I♥NY You gotta love cops.

21st October 2006, 08:54 PM	#12
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,126	Originally Posted by Gravy It was a little pond, towards the lake. It is interesting how "piece of engine 300m away in pond" turns into "second debris field including engine found miles away in lake". Chinese Whispers is a CTers friend. -Gumboot
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

21st October 2006, 08:56 PM	#13
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,136	Originally Posted by alexg Thanks all. That the FDR showed all engines operational would seem to defeat any idea of the engine having been shot off with a sidewinder, eh? Where might I get a link to the FDR data for 93 if this is not too much tio ask? Thanks again. Here's a link in this gumboot post: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...9&postcount=76
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

21st October 2006, 08:57 PM	#14
Bell beautiful freak Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 20,486	Originally Posted by Gravy It was a little pond, towards the lake. And not that far away from the crash site I guess? At least not many thousands of feet (meters?)?
	__________________ Every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me, that's on the worst day of my life. I♥NY You gotta love cops.

21st October 2006, 08:58 PM	#16
Bell beautiful freak Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 20,486	Originally Posted by gumboot It is interesting how "piece of engine 300m away in pond" turns into "second debris field including engine found miles away in lake". Chinese Whispers is a CTers friend. -Gumboot Ah! That's all there's to it? You make debunking too easy
	__________________ Every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me, that's on the worst day of my life. I♥NY You gotta love cops.

21st October 2006, 08:59 PM	#17
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,136	Originally Posted by alexg http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/e...witnesses.html Here a number of eyewitnesses report loud sounds before impact and of course CTs are yelling 'missile' - any ideas? My idea is that none of those people had ever heard an airliner screaming overhead at low altitude at 500 knots. Remember that many of the CT sites haven't been updated since the CVR, FDR and radar info was released...nor will they ever be, most likely.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

21st October 2006, 09:01 PM	#18
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,126	Originally Posted by alexg May be a stupid question but any chance it would break sound barrier in a full on dive? I imagine it's possible... though I suspect at low altitude the wings would tear off first. However I don't believe UA93 went supersonic at any point. In my experience with eye witnesses, they are very unreliable. Basically, if everyone gives a variation on a particular detail, you can be pretty confident that detail is accurate. If one or two people mention a particular thing, that testimony alone is not sufficient to substantiate the accuracy. In other words, if every witness of UA93's crash reported hearing explosions before impact, I'd say there was something to their claims. If 1% of witnesses report explosions, I'd say it's likely they're just mistaken. -Gumboot
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

21st October 2006, 09:07 PM	#19
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,136	Originally Posted by Bell I live in the path of one of the approach routes for Schiphol airport (the Netherlands). Sometimes the planes sound like they are coming straight at my appartment building, sometimes they sound likes trucks, sometimes the fly over high, sometimes very low. The engines of the planes can make all kind of sounds. Is the throttle open or closed? Or is it opened or closed right at the moment you hear the plane? If they're bothering you, you can make them change their flight path by pointing a laser at the cockpit. Disclaimer to FAA, Interpol, etc.:
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

21st October 2006, 09:09 PM	#20
Kryptos Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Langley, VA Posts: 409	Here's the pond, I think, on the left: This (attempt at making a panoramic) looks to the east (left) from the Flight 93 memorial towards the pond and to the south towards where the plane crashed down by the trees (right). Here's the full size image. (2.2 mb)
	Last edited by Kryptos; 21st October 2006 at 09:37 PM. Reason: fix link

21st October 2006, 09:18 PM	#21
Bell beautiful freak Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 20,486	Originally Posted by Gravy If they're bothering you, you can make them change their flight path by pointing a laser at the cockpit. Disclaimer to FAA, Interpol, etc.: As for now, I'll just try to talk them into taking another flight path as soon as I pick them up with my fillings.
	__________________ Every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me, that's on the worst day of my life. I♥NY You gotta love cops.

21st October 2006, 09:24 PM	#22
Bell beautiful freak Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 20,486	Originally Posted by Debunk911Myths Here's the pond, I think, on the left: http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics...pano-small.jpg This (attempt at making a panoramic) looks to the east (left) from the Flight 93 memorial towards the pond and to the south towards where the plane crashed down by the trees (right). Here's the full size image. Thanks for posting that, Kate (the link doesn't work btw). Could somebody tell what part of the engine was found in that pound?
	__________________ Every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me, that's on the worst day of my life. I♥NY You gotta love cops.

21st October 2006, 09:34 PM	#23
MarkyX Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 2,158	Originally Posted by alexg Thanks all. That the FDR showed all engines operational would seem to defeat any idea of the engine having been shot off with a sidewinder, eh? Where might I get a link to the FDR data for 93 if this is not too much tio ask? Thanks again. http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEB...B196/doc04.pdf
MarkyX Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 2,158	__________________ MarkyX's Haunted Bloghouse - Read my boredom

21st October 2006, 10:12 PM	#24
Kryptos Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Langley, VA Posts: 409	Originally Posted by Bell Thanks for posting that, Kate (the link doesn't work btw). Could somebody tell what part of the engine was found in that pound? Fixed the link (it's a big file, 2.2 mb) What part of the engine? Can't find much on that, but this quote from a newspaper article: Quote: A section of the engine, weighing almost a tonne, was found on the bed of a pond 200 metres downhill. [1] And, this figure from Popular Mechanics, which tells me that I pointed out the wrong pond. There's another smaller pond, downwind (and down flightpath) where the engine part was found. Pond #1 is in my picture, and pond #2 is where the engine part was found.

21st October 2006, 10:18 PM	#25
Kryptos Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Langley, VA Posts: 409	...the hill also slopes down from the crash impact site to the pond so the engine part was found ~200 meters: * down wind * down flight path * down hill from the point of impact.

21st October 2006, 10:20 PM	#26
Bell beautiful freak Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 20,486	Originally Posted by Debunk911Myths Fixed the link (it's a big file, 2.2 mb) What part of the engine? Can't find much on that, but this quote from a newspaper article: And, this figure from Popular Mechanics, which tells me that I pointed out the wrong pond. There's another smaller pond, downwind (and down flightpath) where the engine part was found. http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics...light93map.jpg Pond #1 is in my picture, and pond #2 is where the engine part was found. That seems totaly possible to me. Very good picture, btw.
	__________________ Every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me, that's on the worst day of my life. I♥NY You gotta love cops.

21st October 2006, 10:26 PM	#27
LashL Goddess of Legaltainment™ Administrator Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 26,239	Originally Posted by Bell I live in the path of one of the approach routes for Schiphol airport (the Netherlands). Sometimes the planes sound like they are coming straight at my appartment building, sometimes they sound likes trucks, sometimes the fly over high, sometimes very low. The engines of the planes can make all kind of sounds. Is the throttle open or closed? Or is it opened or closed right at the moment you hear the plane? Hey, I've been on flights into Schiphol a few times ~ sorry to have disturbed you But on one of those trips, several years ago, I celebrated my 25th birthday in Amsterdam, so.... sorry, but it was worth it /derail
	Last edited by LashL; 21st October 2006 at 10:30 PM.

21st October 2006, 10:29 PM	#28
Bell beautiful freak Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 20,486	Originally Posted by LashL Hey, I've been on flights into Schiphol a few times ~ sorry to have disturbed you A tat late, don't you think? I'll never sleep again. ETA: I'm not gonna ask HOW you celebrated that birthday in Amsterdam...
	__________________ Every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me, that's on the worst day of my life. I♥NY You gotta love cops.

21st October 2006, 10:34 PM	#29
LashL Goddess of Legaltainment™ Administrator Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 26,239	Originally Posted by Bell A tat late, don't you think? I'll never sleep again. ETA: I'm not gonna ask HOW you celebrated that birthday in Amsterdam... I admit it ~ we didn't have the appropriate hush kits on the plane I was on, for landing after hours... but damn, what a birthday. (NOT what you're thinking!) Edit to add: We did stroll through the red light district but didn't partake in those particular wares. The real fun was in (after finding and enjoying the restaurant that had been recommended as serving the best prime rib and steak dinners known to mankind, complete with the menu being written on chalk boards on the doors to the restrooms), the all night long trek across bridges and such to the numerous staggered-hours bars, before finally making it back to the hotel at nearly dawn... and then meeting and talking to Desmond Tutu in the lobby. Talk about a bizarre day and night!
	Last edited by LashL; 21st October 2006 at 10:47 PM.

22nd October 2006, 03:32 AM	#30
qarnos Cold-hearted skeptic Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Melbourne, Austrylia Posts: 1,985	Originally Posted by LashL I admit it ~ we didn't have the appropriate hush kits on the plane I was on, for landing after hours... but damn, what a birthday. (NOT what you're thinking!) Edit to add: We did stroll through the red light district but didn't partake in those particular wares. The real fun was in (after finding and enjoying the restaurant that had been recommended as serving the best prime rib and steak dinners known to mankind, complete with the menu being written on chalk boards on the doors to the restrooms), the all night long trek across bridges and such to the numerous staggered-hours bars, before finally making it back to the hotel at nearly dawn... and then meeting and talking to Desmond Tutu in the lobby. Talk about a bizarre day and night! I was born in Holland but moved over to Australia when I was 3. I'm a citizen of Great Britain but have never set foot in the country. Work that one out!
	__________________ "In the twenty years since the Chernobyl tragedy, the world's worst nuclear accident, there have been nearly [FILL IN ALARMIST AND ARMAGEDDONIST FACTOID HERE]" - Greenpeace press release.

22nd October 2006, 03:33 AM	#31
The_Fire Unimpressed Female Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: 8th level of Hell - Maleborgia Posts: 3,037	Now that we are dealing with the flight 93 flightpath, could someone point me to the coordinates? I got something I wanna check out in connection with the "Second aircraft" claim............
	__________________ If anyone told you that I'm a nice person, they were either from a different level of existance, lying through their teeth or mentally instable. "We? That better be you and that invisible aardwarck in your pocket you are talking about, because I KNOW you are not stupid enough to open a giant can of whoop ass by claiming you know what I think." Stop Sylvia Browne

22nd October 2006, 09:48 AM	#32
alexg Muse Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 534	http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/flight_93.html The above is the Bollyn article which, if you take it at face value, indicates all sorts of planes were flying around Shanksville, including a Warthog. I don't mean to spam the board with this stuff but I'm debating this guy and I'm a little new at debunking. Anyone already debunk this article? Thanks.
alexg Muse Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 534

22nd October 2006, 10:14 AM	#33
The_Fire Unimpressed Female Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: 8th level of Hell - Maleborgia Posts: 3,037	the trail I'm looking at is a small, local airport. I'm trying to figure out how close the two places are since an airport could explain various sightings of aircraft. I'm not 100 on how these things run, but I would believe that with the closing of the airspace that day, all small airborn planes within the US airspace would attempt to land at the nearest airstrip capable of their size.
	__________________ If anyone told you that I'm a nice person, they were either from a different level of existance, lying through their teeth or mentally instable. "We? That better be you and that invisible aardwarck in your pocket you are talking about, because I KNOW you are not stupid enough to open a giant can of whoop ass by claiming you know what I think." Stop Sylvia Browne

22nd October 2006, 11:50 AM	#34
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,136	Here's some info on the two planes that were in the area: The Dassault Falcon 20 http://www.post-gazette.com/headline...rjetnat5p5.asp http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=341 The C-130 crew's report http://tinyurl.com/mg4xh
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

22nd October 2006, 12:20 PM	#35
Kryptos Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Langley, VA Posts: 409	FBI Explains Other Planes At Flight 93 Crash - WTAE-TV (September 15, 2001) "WTAE-TV reported that the mystery pilot in the white plane may have been an area farmer. James K. Will, a Berlin, Pa., farmer who pilots a white Cessna with red stripes and who has an airstrip near his farm, told Team 4 reporter Paul Van Osdol that he circled the scene about 45 minutes after the crash. Will said he had just returned from Altoona and, when he'd heard about the crash, flew to the site to take photos of the wreckage. Pennsylvania State Police said that his plane may have been the one that many saw. Will's flight was intercepted by a state police helicopter and was escorted to the Johnstown-area airport. His plane was searched and he was released."

22nd October 2006, 12:25 PM	#36
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,136	Originally Posted by Debunk911Myths FBI Explains Other Planes At Flight 93 Crash - WTAE-TV (September 15, 2001) "WTAE-TV reported that the mystery pilot in the white plane may have been an area farmer. James K. Will, a Berlin, Pa., farmer who pilots a white Cessna with red stripes and who has an airstrip near his farm, told Team 4 reporter Paul Van Osdol that he circled the scene about 45 minutes after the crash. Will said he had just returned from Altoona and, when he'd heard about the crash, flew to the site to take photos of the wreckage. Pennsylvania State Police said that his plane may have been the one that many saw. Will's flight was intercepted by a state police helicopter and was escorted to the Johnstown-area airport. His plane was searched and he was released." Wow, somebody didn't get the no-fly order! I bet he longs for the barnstorming days.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links