Australia: site of ancient islam?

[SteveGrenard]

guess who said this:

Quote:

However, Australia already had the most ancient race of men on the face of the earth - the Aborigine people... They continue to live their primitive lives to this very day.

"But when you become acquainted with their traditions among their tribes, you find that they have customs such as circumcision, marriage ceremonies, respect for tribal elders, and burial of the dead - all customs that show that they were connected to ancient Islamic culture before the Europeans set foot in Australia.

"That is, Islam had roots deep in the Australian soil and read the Qur'an and called to prayer before the bells of the churches rang in Australia. The best evidence of this is the hundreds of mosques in the center of Australia built by the Afghans. Some of them were destroyed, and others were turned into Australian archeological museums, and still others remained unharmed, and they bear a history that proves that Islam has roots and ancient connections to Australia.

"But because they did not have the proper conditions to continue to exist, such as schools, propagation of the religion, and connection to the Islamic world, the first generation of our Afghan ancestors dissolved...

"I visited the town of Alice Springs in central Australia, and found there a map [of Alice Springs] under the name Mecca. Alice Springs is surrounded by high black mountains, similar to the mountains of Mecca. Summer there lasts 10 months, and winter only two months. The temperature is above 50 degrees Celsius....

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=12226

[Zep]

Highly amusing!

Just as amusing as your attempt to dredge up ANYTHING that will fan the flames of your own little jihad, here on JREF.

Didn't we tell you he was an ignorant, intolerant man? (I would add "conniving" to that list as well, now.) Do you know what the headline was on last Friday's Telegraph here in Sydney? "THICK SHEIK" And on Saturday? "YOU IGNORANT LITTLE MAN". Everyone here already knows all this. His Islamic council knows it. His community knows it. Australian Muslims know it. The Australian community at large knows it. And more recently, you and the world got to know of it too. It's not like it was hidden or anything, or even a surprise - he's been bleating crap like this for years.

So you are REALLY looking foolish with posts like the above, Steve. REALLY foolish. And vindictive. And possibly in need of some therapy for obsession, in my very amateur opinion.

But more to the point: If you keep up this pointless trolling, Steve, you will look like more of a fool than you already do. I have now been informed by Claus as to his views on your behaviour here, thanks to your own warning - I thought he was just being his usual obstinate Danish self with you.

I won't comment on what Claus has to say, but I WILL repeat my own assertion that I am of the opinion that you have another agenda in play on this forum than just this game of Pointlessly-Bashing-Every-Muslim. I don't know what it is exactly, but I don't like your attitude in the slightest, and I trust you and your motives not at all.

As it stands at face value, however, this is very dangerous path you are treading. To me, you are sounding remarkably like the rabid antisemites of the 1920's - you have picked a victim by class of person alone, and you are making excuse after excuse, wilful misrepresentations galore, to tar them all with the same brush, and bray for the persecution of each and every one of them.

I am just waiting now, with trepidation, to hear your ultimate "solution" to this "problem" of yours. I have a feeling millions of dead people will have heard it before...

I do so hope I am exceedingly wrong in this.

[AWPrime]

MMmmmmm Godwin.

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by AWPrime

MMmmmmm Godwin.

yup:

http://beautifulatrocities.com/archi..._future_e.html

[Soapy Sam]

Steve , I didn't follow the link, because whoever wrote the text is an idiot and life is too short to read idiots.

But I do wonder what your reason is for posting it.
Perhaps you just felt it was wonderfully silly. If so, I concur.
But if you had a more serious motive, would you mind explaining it for me?

[Zep]

Originally Posted by AWPrime

MMmmmmm Godwin.

Wondered who would be the first to notice! Mind you, that's if Steve is being taken at face value. Which I suspect some people do...I don't.

But seriously...

Steve, what IS your solution to this problem of Shari'a law taking over the world? How do YOU propose to deal with the millions of little Muslims the world over who are being taught to kill their neighbours?

Answer, please, Steve? Not anyone else, just you.

Do you HAVE an answer? Or are you just into shreiking about it and pointing at people.

Or is it, as I suspect, something else entirely you are up to...

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Steve , I didn't follow the link, because whoever wrote the text is an idiot and life is too short to read idiots.

But I do wonder what your reason is for posting it.
Perhaps you just felt it was wonderfully silly. If so, I concur.
But if you had a more serious motive, would you mind explaining it for me?

yup, I think it is deliriously silly ....and appropriate for the religious forum. The words
were uttered by the Mufti of Australia and New Zealand.

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by Zep

Wondered who would be the first to notice! Mind you, that's if Steve is being taken at face value. Which I suspect some people do...I don't.

But seriously...

Steve, what IS your solution to this problem of Shari'a law taking over the world? How do YOU propose to deal with the millions of little Muslims the world over who are being taught to kill their neighbours?

Answer, please, Steve? Not anyone else, just you.

Do you HAVE an answer? Or are you just into shreiking about it and pointing at people.

Or is it, as I suspect, something else entirely you are up to...

I do not pretend to have the answers. But before solutions can be formulated the problems must be identified. Right now you are the one doing the shrieking.

Having said this, I think one possible solution to is to try and convince islamicists not to allow humans to personally and physically carry out the punishments on those who violate god's law themselves. The fact that they outsource what is clearly god's responsibility is wrong. They should let god handle it. Is allah so busy he can't find the time to mete out punishment to adulterers, apostates and blasphemers himself? That would be for the capital crimes of adultery in all its forms, blasphemy and apostasy. If the transgression is murder, theft or perjury they should raise the goalposts for proving this and allow secular authority to furnish the appropriate punishment for violators. What do you think? Could this be a realistic solution or would islam find a way to reject this approach?

[CFLarsen]

Note that this is about Australia, where Zep lives. Lately, Zep has challenged Steve Grenard on his rabid views of Muslims, so Steve now strikes back with this.

Steve has earlier tried to paint a bleak picture of Denmark - where I come from.

So, be "warned" (yes, I know you all dread this happening) that, if you challenge Steve Grenard, he will attack you by posting something nasty (or make up something) about your country.

[SteveGrenard]

What is ironic about the complaints voiced by Larson and Zep is that they say I am calling muslims bad things when, in fact, it is disenfranchised muslims, particularly women, who suffer most under their misogynist system of religiously inspired laws and who would most benefit were they to dissapear this afternoon. These two have a difficult time separating the practice of certain inhumane acts inflicted by the leaders and scholars of a religion and those who suffer under them. Why they defend these practices while muslims are sentenced to death for apostasy, blasphemy and adultery is truly mystifying. Do you think is really appropriate in this day and age to try, convict and sentence to death someone who "insults" the prophet? As these proceedings are secret how many more cases there are and in what countries can never be known. If the family and others have not spoken out on the following case HRW would not have known about it either.

Quote:

Letter to King Abdullah bin ‘Abd al-‘Aziz al-Sa’ud

October 10, 2006

King Abdullah bin ‘Abd al-‘Aziz al-Sa’ud
Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques
Royal Court
Riyadh
Saudi Arabia 11111

Your Royal Highness:

We write to you regarding Hadi bin Sa’id bin Hamad Al Mutif, a Saudi citizen, who was sentenced to death in 1996 after he was convicted of allegedly insulting the Prophet Muhammad in December 1993.

We are particularly concerned because it is apparent that the judges in the case held a deep bias against Al Mutif because he follows the Sulaimani Isma’ili creed. As a result, Hadi Al Mutif did not receive a fair trial. The judges of the Najran General Court, the Appeals Court in Mekka, and the Supreme Judicial Council displayed bias and prejudice against Isma’ilis and the Isma’ili creed in all the proceedings against Al Mutif.

Throughout the trial basic rules of due process and fairness were not observed, rendering the conviction gravely unsound and unreliable. For this reason we call on you to pardon Hadi Al Mutif without delay and to ensure he is free to leave Najran Public Prison.

Al Mutif’s alleged crime was to have insulted the Prophet during communal prayers at a military training site in Najran city, where he was a recruit, in late December 1993. Arriving late to the prayers on this occasion, he asked fellow recruits to make space for him and allegedly uttered an insulting phrase when they did not allow him to join their ranks.

According to Al Mutif, who described his ordeal to Human Rights Watch in a July 18 telephone conversation from his prison cell, his superiors used disparaging comments about his Isma’ili creed while first questioning him about his alleged remarks, before handing him over to the local mabahith, the secret police. He said that mabahith officers deprived him of sleep, beat him, and sexually threatened him during his 18 days of interrogation and detention there.

Hadi Al Mutif’s initial trial and subsequent appeals and reviews violated numerous international fair trial standards. At various points, the judges did not allow Al Mutif to properly prepare his defense; they denied him the right to legal representation; they did not allow Al Mutif to cross-examine the witnesses against him; they closed the trial to the public without good cause; they did not investigate allegations of torture and they did not assess Al Mutif’s fitness to stand trial.

Muhammad Ahmad al-‘Askari, the chief judge in Najran General Court, arraigned Al Mutif on the formal charge of “insulting the Prophet” (sabb al-rasul) and authenticated witness statements for later admission as evidence at trial approximately six weeks after the alleged crime took place. Al Mutif told Human Rights Watch that Judge al-‘Askari did not ask him how he wanted to plead, but said to him, “Don’t deny it. If you do, you will go back to the mabahith for further interrogation,” even after Al Mutif had told the judge that he had “hallucinations” from the torture he had endured at the hands of the mabahith jailers.

Al Mutif’s trial, which was closed to the public, began around two years after the arraignment, a friend who recently spoke with the family told Human Rights Watch and lasted six sessions. Al Mutif told Human Rights Watch that in the first session, when he heatedly challenged the testimony of one of the witnesses, a police officer smashed his head into a window in the presence of the judge. Al Mutif maintained throughout that he never uttered words insulting to the Prophet. He said that at the next session, the judge “questioned whether I was a Muslim because I follow the Isma’ili sect. They spoke to me as though I was not a Muslim and asked ‘How many prayers are there in a day?’ and made me pray in front of them.” At the end of the six sessions, the judge sentenced Al Mutif to death.

Throughout the trial sessions the court refused Al Mutif‘s demand for legal counsel. At its conclusion, the judge did not issue his verdict in writing. (Saudi Arabia’s Code of Criminal Procedure, issued in 2002, now requires defendants to obtain a copy of the judgment).

Al Mutif told Human Rights Watch that when he appealed the verdict, Shaikh Abdullah al-Muni’, Chief Judge of Mekka’s Appeals Court, said of Isma’ilis, “You are a corrupt minority, you don’t belong to Islam in any form, you have no creed or religion.” Al-Muni’s court upheld the death sentence.

The High Judicial Council, in Riyadh, must confirm all death sentences. Two years after the initial verdict, Shaikh Salih al-Luhaidan, the head of the Council, decided that “death was the only possible punishment for this crime,” according to a friend of the family who has followed the case.

Your Highness, we understand that in 1999 you did not confirm the death sentence, as required under Saudi law, but instead secured an extraordinary special review process for Al Mutif’s case following repeated interventions by Al Mutif’s family. This process comprised of judicial, administrative and forensic committees and included a six-month psychiatric evaluation in a forensic institution in al-Ta’if. The doctors there attested that Hadi Al Mutif suffered from childhood trauma and concluded that he was “not responsible for his actions” at the time of the incident. Ignoring this expert opinion, the judicial committee, which had the power to make a final decision, in 2001 decided that “whether responsible or not, you have to be made an example for others,” and upheld the verdict, according to Al Mutif, who said he was present at the time of their determination.

According to Hadi Al Mutif’s father, Sa’id Al Mutif, he met Your Highness in March 2006 together with Shaikh Muhammad Al Munif and Shaikh Hamad Al Khasha from Najran. Sa’id Al Mutif told Human Rights Watch that in that audience, you expressed your desire to pardon Hadi Al Mutif and phoned your adviser by the name of al-Shitri to convey the news of Al Mutif’s pardon.

Your Highness, six months later Hadi Al Mutif remains in Najran Public Prison. On September 5 he began a hunger strike, but broke it off on September 13 after having collapsed two days earlier.

We call on you take urgent steps to implement your pardon of Hadi Al Mutif. Thank you very much for your attention to this matter.

Yours sincerely,


Sarah Leah Whitson
Executive Director
Middle East & North Africa Division
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/10/10/saudia14372.htm

Quote:

Larson: Note that this is about Australia, where Zep lives. Lately, Zep has challenged Steve Grenard on his rabid views of Muslims, so Steve now strikes back with this.

I am truly sorry Zep is offended by my pointing out the excesses of the Mufti of the country where Zep lives. From the beginning of the current cat meat controversy involving this person Zep has sought to minimize the incident. I realize now how sensitive he is about it. But were such a man living in the U.S. I would do likewise. The Mufti's statements on the Australia and the early origins of Islam were just too ridiculous not to post. Perhaps we can excavate a mosque from an earlier time in Ohio and beat them out. I know we must have a few Mecca's around (new: mekkah).

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

So, be "warned" (yes, I know you all dread this happening) that, if you challenge Steve Grenard, he will attack you by posting something nasty (or make up something) about your country.

Then I should feel free to challenge away, since the internet is full of whinging foreigners who post cheap shots at my country, 24/7. Water off a duck's back, Steve's got nothing new to add to that.

DR

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

What is ironic about the complaints voiced by Larson and Zep is that they say I am calling muslims bad things when, in fact, it is disenfranchised muslims, particularly women, who suffer most under their misogynist system of religiously inspired laws and who would most benefit were they to dissapear this afternoon. These two have a difficult time separating the practice of certain inhumane acts inflicted by the leaders and scholars of a religion and those who suffer under them.

On on Earth do you come to that conclusion?

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

Why they defend these practices while muslims are sentenced to death for apostasy, blasphemy and adultery is truly mystifying.

We are not defending them. We are pointing out the flaws in your argument. That does not mean support for the other side.

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

Do you think is really appropriate in this day and age to try, convict and sentence to death someone who "insults" the prophet?

Nobody has argued that.

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

I am truly sorry Zep is offended by my pointing out the excesses of the Mufti of the country where Zep lives. From the beginning of the current cat meat controversy involving this person Zep has sought to minimize the incident. I realize now how sensitive he is about it. But were such a man living in the U.S. I would do likewise. The Mufti's statements on the Australia and the early origins of Islam were just too ridiculous not to post. Perhaps we can excavate a mosque from an earlier time in Ohio and beat them out. I know we must have a few Mecca's around (new: mekkah).

After I challenge your claims, you bring up what Muslims do in Denmark.

After Zep challenges your claims, you bring up what Muslims do in Australia.

Why? It isn't as if we say that rabid Muslims only exist in your country. It's as if you want to get back at us by get back at our countries.

[SteveGrenard]

You need to stop being so nationalistic when discussing a trans-global problem. The issue transcends borders and political subdivisions.

I will ask you again whether you agree that the "crimes" of adultery, blasphemy and apostasy should be punished by allah and not man?

Yes or no will suffice.

[SteveGrenard]

Quote:

Why? It isn't as if we say that rabid Muslims only exist in your country. It's as if you want to get back at us by get back at our countries.

I am still not sure what a rabid muslim is, but if you mean angry or furious, sure they exist in my country and in any country. Again, the problem has nothing to do with political boundaries.
Incidents which occur in particular countries are examples and just because they occur where they occur does not mean they cannot occur anywhere or anywhere else. Show me where I said only in XYZ country? As usual you are conflating again, now a country with a religion. Before it was a race and a religion.

I am used to using the term "rabid" only for the following. I have never used it as an adjective to describe muslims. Clearly this is your invention. Do you admit this? Yes or No?

Quote:

Rabies virus belongs to the order Mononegavirales, viruses with a nonsegmented, negative-stranded RNA genomes. Within this group, viruses with a distinct "bullet" shape are classified in the Rhabdoviridae family, which includes at least three genera of animal viruses, Lyssavirus, Ephemerovirus, and Vesiculovirus. The genus Lyssavirus includes rabies virus, Lagos bat, Mokola virus, Duvenhage virus, European bat virus 1 & 2 and Australian bat virus.

Source: U.S. CDC

[SteveGrenard]

Larson, here's a new thread just started you can really sink your teeth into:

Danish Dynamite:

Quote:

Investigate journalists from the Danish State Broadcasting system, on a tip, went to Spain to investigate whether some doctors there would have no problem performing an abortion on a woman 8 months pregnant. Turns out they were right. The revelation, using hidden cameras etc, was just shown on TV here.

Beerina:

Quote:

Not that I've heard. However, I'd watch out for tit-for-tat; I'm sure Spanish journalists are headed to Denmark to see what dirt they can dig up on you.

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

You need to stop being so nationalistic when discussing a trans-global problem. The issue transcends borders and political subdivisions.

I am not the one bringing up Denmark and Australia. You are.

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

I will ask you again whether you agree that the "crimes" of adultery, blasphemy and apostasy should be punished by allah and not man?

Yes or no will suffice.

"Again"?

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

I am still not sure what a rabid muslim is, but if you mean angry or furious, sure they exist in my country and in any country. Again, the problem has nothing to do with political boundaries. Incidents which occur in particular countries are examples and just because they occur where they occur does not mean they cannot occur anywhere or anywhere else. Show me where I said only in XYZ country? As usual you are conflating again, now a country with a religion. Before it was a race and a religion.

I am used to using the term "rabid" only for the following. I have never used it as an adjective to describe muslims. Clearly this is your invention. Do you admit this? Yes or No?

Source: U.S. CDC

No, it is not my "invention". You are clearly trying to paint a picture of all Muslims as evil, bloodthirsty and terrorist.

Why do you ignore the other meaning of "rabid"?

[AWPrime]

Originally Posted by Zep

Steve, what IS your solution to this problem of Shari'a law taking over the world? How do YOU propose to deal with the millions of little Muslims the world over who are being taught to kill their neighbours?

I would like to try to have all the users of Shari'a feel stupid.

[SteveGrenard]

Quote:

Zep: Steve, what IS your solution to this problem of Shari'a law taking over the world? How do YOU propose to deal with the millions of little Muslims the world over who are being taught to kill their neighbours?

Sharia can’t be an exception to international human-rights norms.

http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...tman011903.asp