Logical Creationism

[Loki]

A question for Franko, but applicable to any theist with a few subtle changes here and there.

It seems that Logical Deism (and most if not all theistic religions) assume that the human race is central to the 'nature/reason for being' for the universe.

Franko offers a theory of an 'omniverse' consisting of at least 3 'planes'. The Abyss is the bottom, our Universe is next, and the Metaverse(?) sits above. The Logical Goddess (LG) is using her consciousness to create at least the middle layer (our Universe) as a sort of sorting machine. Gravitons are plucked from the Abyss and inserted into the Universe, where they perform the actions that their nature dictates. As a result of this display of their nature, the Graviton is either raised ot the next level, or sent to the Abyss. In short, without humans (gravitons) this Universe has no task to perform.

Now, add three "apparent facts" :

1. The Earth is 4.5 billion years old;
2. The fossil record indicates that dinosaurs walked the Earth for 160 million years.
3. Homo Sapiens are approximately 100,000 years old.

So why did the LG create a planet that is so old? Why did she hand the planet over to the dinosaurs for such an extended period? There seems to be 4 possible answers :

1. The planet is not that old, and dinosaurs didn't exist - it's an error or illusion;
2. The planet is that old, dinosaurs existed, but Homo Sapiens are 4.5 billion years old. We've just forgotten about it somehow. (But the presence of dinosaur fossils without human fossils counts against this);
3. The planet is that old, dinosaurs existed, and Homo Sapiens are 100,000 years old - the LG "works in mysterious ways" in creating a universal graviton sorting machine, and not turning it on for 4.4999 billion years;
4. The planet is that old, dinosaurs existed, and Homo Sapiens are 100,000 years old - the LG doesn't exist, (and matter makes consciousness!);

I assume that Frank prefers 3? So we are to believe that the LG has sat down to watch a 5 hour TV show called "The Universe and Gravitons", and the first 4 hours, 59 minutes and 59.9 seconds are just 'static white noise', and at the very end there's 0.1 seconds of "activity". Interesting plan ...

Think how long the rest of the universe "ran" before this solar system even formed.

And why do we need a big, HUGE universe?

Just a little ball with people on it and an energy source would do. If all you needed to do was sort people by their behavior.

Heck, even make something like Pratchett's 'Discworld', if you like.

And who's to say a godess isn't sorting jellybeans by flavor?

Cherry, Cherry, Licorice, Grape, Coffee... Yuck! Lime, Cherry....

What does being its favorite flavor imply in this scenario?

A godess has to eat *something*.

Feasts of yummy, clean believers. Chewy on the outside, crunchy on the inside. They 'squeak' when you bite down on 'em!

[ceo_esq]

Quote:

Originally posted by Loki
So we are to believe that the LG has sat down to watch a 5 hour TV show called "The Universe and Gravitons", and the first 4 hours, 59 minutes and 59.9 seconds are just 'static white noise', and at the very end there's 0.1 seconds of "activity". Interesting plan ...

I don't know from gravitons (for crying out loud), but two points:

1. No need to conclude that it's only a 5-hour show. Maybe it's just starting, and the first part was like the number countdown that used to appear at the beginning of films in school.
2. Couldn't a deity have settled on natural selection as the mechanism s/he wanted to set in motion to create human beings, and that particular recipe simply calls for the raw ingredients to simmer for a few billion years? It's not as though the extra time would really matter to the deity, who might not even experience it as such.

[PotatoStew]

Quote:

1. No need to conclude that it's only a 5-hour show. Maybe it's just starting, and the first part was like the number countdown that used to appear at the beginning of films in school.

You beat me to it, ceo-esq! Loki, you say we're the 0.1 seconds "at the very end" but suppose we're going to be around for 100 billion years. Would that change things a bit for you?

To use a similar analogy to yours, what you are saying would be as if someone builds a cotton gin, turns it on for the first time, and a couple of seconds into the process the cotton says "Hey, this machine has been around for a day or two before we got here, and the parts the machine is made of have existed for a week or two -- not to mention the raw materials the parts are made of. It's silly to think that this machine was created to process cotton!"

[BillyTK]

goddess creates universe, goes off for a cup of tea and a nap, before you know it, 4.5 billion years are up and she hasn't even switched on the graviton machine!

which of course is an amazingly sexist mythos--why is it always the goddess who's got to switch the graviton machine on, eh?

[Franko]

I don't suppose any of you guys have ever read Fred Hoyle?

Loki, I'll get back to you on this. It would take some time to explain ...

[hammegk]

Quote:

Originally posted by Loki

It seems that Logical Deism (and most if not all theistic religions) assume that the human race is central to the 'nature/reason for being' for the universe.

Huh? I don't. Can't speak for LD, but from what I've seen posted, I doubt that is true for LD either. You forgot 5. None of the above.

SecHums must think homo sap is the "reason" I guess?

[Crossbow]

To: Loki

Thanks for the excellent post!

You have done a very good job at listing the points raised.

As for me, I conclude that Fanko is just another of those Guru Wannabees that frequent the JREF Forum.

I think the lure of JREF Prize is too strong for them which is why they come around here.

Oh well, I suppose it is better than having them set up a 900 number.

Thanks again!

[ReasonableDoubt]

Quote:

Originally posted by Loki
It seems that Logical Deism (and most if not all theistic religions) assume that the human race is central to the 'nature/reason for being' for the universe.

Is that, in fact, a correct representation? By the way, while dinosaurs are rather impressive, to quote Stephen Jay Gould:

Quote:

This is the age of bacteria. Bacteria have always been dominant. The bacterial mode, the mode being the most common form of life, is never altered in 3 1/2 billion years.

If there is anything "central to the 'nature/reason for being' for the universe", it's blue-green algae.

[hammegk]

Quote:

Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
... to quote Stephen Jay Gould: If there is anything "central to the 'nature/reason for being' for the universe", it's blue-green algae.

Hmmm, I didn't know Gould ever said anything that intelligent. Thanks.

[Franko]

Crossbow,

Quote:

I think the lure of JREF Prize is too strong for them which is why they come around here.

Wait a minute there Bub!

If anyone is interested in the Randi-Prize, then clearly it is you Atheists. After all you are the ones claiming to posses the magical power/ability of “free willy” – NOT ME.

Unlike your fanatically Religious self -- I believe in the Laws of Physics!

... but thanks for sharing your delusions!

Well, if there isn't free will, then Franko, there is no such thing as 'responsibility', because it was all destined to happen.

Therefore, I do believe in consequences for my actions; you believe nothing matters because it was all "supposed to happen like this".

Even when you, Franko, finish killing a hundred babies with your bare hands, you can walk out with your head held high, knowing for certain you were SUPPOSED to do that. You were ALWAYS destined to do that. "Hurray" for you, fulfilling your destiny and all that.

[hammegk]

Quote:

Originally posted by evildave
Well, if there isn't free will, then Franko, there is no such thing as 'responsibility', because it was all destined to happen.
...
Even when you, Franko, finish killing a hundred babies with your bare hands, you can walk out with your head held high, knowing for certain you were SUPPOSED to do that. You were ALWAYS destined to do that. "Hurray" for you, fulfilling your destiny and all that.

e.d., given such a scenario, whose "will" is being followed do you suppose? Suggestability, will, morality -- what a conundrum....

[ReasonableDoubt]

Quote:

Originally posted by hammegk
Hmmm, I didn't know Gould ever said anything that intelligent. Thanks.

[Franko]

Quote:

Well, if there isn't free will, then Franko, there is no such thing as 'responsibility', because it was all destined to happen.

Well …

… this is exactly why you A-Theists are so dangerous and must ultimately be destroyed …

... evildave

[ReasonableDoubt]

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko

Well …

… this is exactly why you A-Theists are so dangerous and must ultimately be destroyed …

... evildave

I suggest that such threats are both inappropriate and unacceptable.

[hammegk]

Quote:

Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
I suggest that such threats are both inappropriate and unacceptable.

Mmmmkaayyy, and now what?

Perhaps if you hold your breath 'til your face turns blue?

[Franko]

Quote:

I suggest that such threats are both inappropriate and unacceptable.

Don't twist words into things that they obviously don't mean A-Theist.

Are you denying that one day you will cease to exist, A-Theist?

That is because God doesn't want you around.

But a different Fate awaits those (unlike the A-Theists) who are compatible with other entities. They will not be destroyed. They will not cease to exist.

You know, what can I say about 'predestiny', other than someone who wants me to worry about some big dork (or dorkette) in a toga, who made everything and predestined everything to run a certain way from beginning to end, also wants me to believe in it so badly that he insists that I already do.

Dream on dork-kisser.

I don't see any strings. I can go somewhere else and do something else at a whim. Perhaps I'll take a little walk for lunch.

If it's an "illusion" it's an illusion as complete as the one where the sun shines. Perhaps I only "imagine" the star is there? Bull. Pull your head out of your ass and live in the real world for a change.

I'll worry about "ultimate destiny" if it ever comes to that. In the meantime, I will worry about the mundane and simple choices in my own life that make it operate. Like "magically" choosing to make the payments on my various debts, and "mystically" predicting that I'll need to get the neices and nephews some toys, and it's probably time to call and inquire what sort of things they want this year. Maybe even "psychically" predict there will be trick-or-treaters tomorrow night, and do something proactive about a Jack-O-Lantern.

So amazing and supernatural are these "abilities" of precognition that nearly everyone has them, and they're considered mundane.

[Franko]

Yeah .. Evildave ... we are all well aware that you are an A-Theist.

... but thank you for sharing again.

And we are all aware of what you are, Franko.

You're welcome.

[Franko]

What's the matter Davey-Boy?

... is the thought of ceasing to exist worrying you? Does it scare you Davey? Is that why you follow me around? Maybe ... deep down ... you are less convinced of your beliefs then you want to pretend ...?

[Crossbow]

Franko:

Having Free Will is not a paranormal power, therefore I doubt that it could be considered a legitimate contender for the JREF Prize.

If it were, then the prize would have been obtained long ago.

And by the way, if you have a question about my beliefs, then please ask me. Simply reading one of my posts and calling me one of the "Atheists" does no credit to you since it does not accurately describe my religion.

I hope this helps!

[Franko]

Crossbow,

My apologies if I have mischaracterized, or misunderstood your beliefs. There are a lot of A-Theists in this forum, and they have a wolf pack mentality. When I see another animal in the pack, I assume he is a wolf until I am shown otherwise.

But that really the reason I avoid talking to the Newbies. I like to know who I am talking to a little before I actually “talk” to them.

[Crossbow]

Franko:

I still do not follow your logic.

First, you say that you do not respond to "newbies" yet I have been with the Forum for over a year with almost 550 posts. Hardly a newbie.

Second, you claim that you like to know who you are talking to before you talk to them, but then you start by mischaracterizing me. I would say that you violated your own guidlines again.

Any clarification would be appreciated!

[Franko]

Crossbow,

Quote:

First, you say that you do not respond to "newbies" yet I have been with the Forum for over a year with almost 550 posts. Hardly a newbie.

Newbie relative to me. I don’t know you crossbow. I’ve seen you once or twice in here, but I have no idea what your beliefs are, and I have never seen you in debate, or debated with you myself that I can recall.

Quote:

Second, you claim that you like to know who you are talking to before you talk to them, but then you start by mischaracterizing me. I would say that you violated your own guidlines again.

Generally I ignore anyone who I don’t know (who I haven’t read some of their post). Once in a while, one of these people makes an interesting point, or raises some issue that I feel compelled to address.

If I was smarter, I would ALWAYS ignore them, but … the next thing I know I have Doubt, or Jkorosi, or Evildave, or a Fool, or Whodini, or an Impywinky following me around like my little shadow.

But yeah … you're right – I violated my own guidelines. I wonder if I will come to regret it?

[Loki]

Potato/ceo-esq,

Yes, if the human race has a 100 billion year life span then it does change the picture somewhat. However, that's pure speculation - all we have to work with *right here and now* are the 'apparent facts', and they (appear) to show that the "moral sorting machine" has been idle for 19,999,990,000 years, and active for 10,000. (Yes, I've switched to using the 'age of the universe' rather than the "age of the earth" - because if humanity lives 100 billion years, it won't be on this planet only!).

Quote:

Couldn't a deity have settled on natural selection as the mechanism s/he wanted to set in motion to create human beings, and that particular recipe simply calls for the raw ingredients to simmer for a few billion years?

Yep, that could be exactly what's happening. I'd argue though that this scenario is far closer to 'deism' than 'theism', and deism is both essentially unprovable, and ultimately irrelevant (from a human perspective).

I guess the point I was trying to make is that various theologies declare that we humans are "aware of god's plan". Franko's worldview is quite detailed - he "knows" the how and the why of the universe. Yet, simple facts appear to reveal that the nature and behaviour of any god is essentially unknown in many areas, because there are large "unexplained" gaps in the theologies - gaps which were hidden from human view before science exposed them. The mere presence of these gaps, and the inability for theists to fill them with anything more than "perhaps..." speaks volumes (to me) of the underlying nature of the god/theologies.

Oh, and on the specific issue of Logical Deism, I am interested in hearing Franko's "creation story". Just how old is the universe in LG terms?

Quote:

... and a couple of seconds into the process the cotton says ...

Potato, you're now reduced to using 'talking cotton' to make a point!!! (Just kidding, I get the analogy!)

[Franko]

Loki,

Imagine that there are only 3 entities to exist in all the Omniverse (Omniverse = Sum of all reality = all universes).

You, Me, and the Goddess – that’s it. No matter … just 3 separate distinct, disembodied consciousnesses (or you can think of each one as a particle if you prefer).

Okay … now here is the thing. You and I are unable to communicate with each other. We can send out signals, but our signals are to weak to reach one another. But the Goddess, she doesn’t have this problem. Her signal is strong enough to reach both of us.

… and this kind of solves the problem for You and Me. because, now, even though we cannot communicate directly … She can relay messages back and fourth between us. In other words, if you want to send a message to me, you tell Her, and then She tells Me “Loki said, X-Y-Z”.

So the relationship is kind of like a computer network. Where the LG is like the server (the central hub), and You and I are just nodes on that server. The nodes don’t communicate directly. They have to relay information through the server.

The server … that kind of becomes the universe to you and I over time. You and I are evolving, and the server is evolving right along with us.

She started off as a particle (just like you and I). When the universe first formed, God was an Omnipotent particle – She was the “smartest” particle around, and when the “smartest” thing around was a Dinosaur … She was “smarter” than a Dinosaur. So now we have humans as the most evolved entity … and She is more evolved than humans.

You have a system where a particle travels at a relative constant speed. They all start a race at different times. The particle that is moving the fastest, and started the race the longest time ago, is the farthest along on the race course. It’s that simple.

[Loki]

Franko,

Thanks for the reply. It makes sense in that peculiar Franko-way.

[Ipecac]

Franko,

You spent quite a bit of time recently conversing politely with me and I appreciate it. But in all of these discussions (which I've continued to follow) I still don't get one thing.

How do you KNOW any of this? Ancient texts? Divine inspiration? Thousands of years of tradition? You have developed quite a detailed idea here but I have no idea where it comes from other than your own head.

Thanks in advance for the answer.

[Franko]

Ipecac,

Quote:

How do you KNOW any of this? Ancient texts? Divine inspiration? Thousands of years of tradition? You have developed quite a detailed idea here but I have no idea where it comes from other than your own head.

I could give you all kinds of answers Ipecac, but when it comes right down to it ... only one type of answer is worth spit -- a logical answer.

In other words, it doesn't really matter how I know it only matters if what I say makes sense in your head.

Or more specifically if it makes more sense then any other explanation you have ever heard.

One day ... someone might say to you -- "But how do you know this?" I doubt your evidence would be "Internet Franko told me!". In fact, if you understoof Logical Deism, you probably wouldn't ever even need to mention my name, or JREF, or what twist of Fate lead you here ...

[hammegk]

Or, as some deep thinker of long ago explained, "The Path that can be spoken is not the true Path".


Franko:

Maybe if you request a substantial tithe?? LOL.

[BillyTK]

Quote:

Originally posted by hammegk
Or, as some deep thinker of long ago explained, "The Path that can be spoken is not the true Path".

that would be lao tzu in the tao te ching; so logical deism is not the true path (it can be spoken), or franko's sole purpose is to shock us out of the complacency of our perceptions, and otherwise logical deism is meaningless?

[PotatoStew]

Loki:

Quote:

However, that's pure speculation - all we have to work with *right here and now* are the 'apparent facts', and they (appear) to show that the "moral sorting machine" has been idle for 19,999,990,000 years, and active for 10,000.

But the point is that using the apparent facts right here and now we can't draw any conclusions one way or the other. Since we don't know if 100,000 years is going to be the extent of our tenure here (making the 20 billion years a rather significant sum) or if we're going to be around another 100 billion years (making 20 billion years but a fraction of our stay) you can't draw any sound conclusions from the amount of time we've been here compared with the age of the universe. You don't have enough data yet to do so. Any conclusions based on this incomplete data are premature and also pure speculation.

[ceo_esq]

Quote:

Originally posted by PotatoStew
But the point is that using the apparent facts right here and now we can't draw any conclusions one way or the other. Since we don't know if 100,000 years is going to be the extent of our tenure here (making the 20 billion years a rather significant sum) or if we're going to be around another 100 billion years (making 20 billion years but a fraction of our stay) you can't draw any sound conclusions from the amount of time we've been here compared with the age of the universe. You don't have enough data yet to do so. Any conclusions based on this incomplete data are premature and also pure speculation.

I've been trying not to think of this all week, but I did recently see a Learning Zone program hosted by Stephen Hawking where some scientists basically concluded that the physical universe had a useful (to us) lifespan of less than 100 billion years because before then it will have deteriorated into an unimaginably thin broth of elementary particles.

Depressing. Anyhow, good reason to kick that moral sorting machine into high gear.

[Quasi]

Franko,

The second part of your "trinity" of reality is evident, we exist in what you call "the universe." What evidence do you have for the other two planes or whatever? What evidence do you have for this "goddess" deity?

[AmateurScientist]

Quote:

Originally posted by ceo_esq

I've been trying not to think of this all week, but I did recently see a Learning Zone program hosted by Stephen Hawking where some scientists basically concluded that the physical universe had a useful (to us) lifespan of less than 100 billion years because before then it will have deteriorated into an unimaginably thin broth of elementary particles.

Depressing. Anyhow, good reason to kick that moral sorting machine into high gear.

Yes, "heat death." It's as inevitable as the sun's eventual depletion of hydrogen fuel for nuclear fusion. I don't find it depressing at all. It's just a natural consequence of the mysterious energy source causing the acceleration of the expansion of the universe and entropy. Besides, we as individuals, and as a species, will be long gone before then.

AS

[Ipecac]

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko
Ipecac,

I could give you all kinds of answers Ipecac, but when it comes right down to it ... only one type of answer is worth spit -- a logical answer.

In other words, it doesn't really matter how I know it only matters if what I say makes sense in your head.

Or more specifically if it makes more sense then any other explanation you have ever heard.

One day ... someone might say to you -- "But how do you know this?" I doubt your evidence would be "Internet Franko told me!". In fact, if you understoof Logical Deism, you probably wouldn't ever even need to mention my name, or JREF, or what twist of Fate lead you here ...

Actually, *any* answer would be worth spit.

See, there's a credibility issue. People easily fool themselves. Just because it might make sense "in my head" doesn't mean it's true. So, I'm looking to you, the LD "guru" to give me some idea where it came from. If you just made it up, then we're back to the "fooling oneself" problem again. If you tell me that it's been practiced for thousands of years, or it comes from ancient texts, that raises the credibility somewhat. Perhaps not enough to make a difference, but certainly more than one person making something up.

[Franko]

Quasi,

Quote:

The second part of your "trinity" of reality is evident, we exist in what you call "the universe." What evidence do you have for the other two planes or whatever?

That is a rather complicated question.

And when I say “complicated” I mean that in the Logical Deism sense of the word, which means it is actually simple (like 2 + 2 = 4), but Time consuming to explain.

I am not sure how much you know about programming, but to an LD, Reality is like a computer program. No individual line of code (a premise) is that complex. Practically anyone could understand it (although as you get deeper into the code, the lines assume an understanding of the previous sections), but in order to understand what the program is doing – in order for you to be convinced we would have to sit down and go through the code … line by line.

… The simple answer to your question? Imagine an Atom … Nucleus in the center … Electrons “orbiting” around in their respective shells. An Electron can move up a shell (gaining energy), or it can go down a shell (losing energy) … Except in the reality of the Omniverse (if you could perceive the “MetaTrue” reality) you would perceive that there is really only one kind of particle -- Gravitons (equivalent to the Electrons in the Atom example). The various “shells” are Godelian Layers of the Omniverse. Each layer is a Universe. The lower energy shells are previous lower energy state (simpler) universes in the past. The Higher energy state shells are more elaborate Universes in the future.

… And not all Gravitons strictly move Forward in Time …

Quote:

What evidence do you have for this "goddess" deity?

Do you mean other than the fact that I don’t believe my Car or Pebbles are more conscious than I am? I don’t know if you are an Atheists or not, but I always wonder why Atheists feel that they don’t need to present their evidence for NOT GOD … ?

[Franko]

Ipecac,

Quote:

See, there's a credibility issue. People easily fool themselves. Just because it might make sense "in my head" doesn't mean it's true.

How likely is it that 2 + 2 is NOT equal to 4?

Assuming that you are sane?

Quote:

So, I'm looking to you, the LD "guru" to give me some idea where it came from. If you just made it up, then we're back to the "fooling oneself" problem again.

How so? Do you mean like Galileo was fooling himself when he came up with the idea that Jupiter had moons that revolved around it?

Quote:

If you tell me that it's been practiced for thousands of years, or it comes from ancient texts, that raises the credibility somewhat.

Why would Dogma increase its credibility in your mind?

But LD has been around for a very long Time …

Quote:

Perhaps not enough to make a difference, but certainly more than one person making something up.

I didn’t realize that more than one person had to believe something for it to be True?