"Guns for Tots"

[shanek]

It's only as silly as the law they're protesting.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WAB...gunsftots.html

Quote:

In a plan that is already outraging local parents, a political group plans to hand out hundreds of toy guns to school children in Harlem Thursday. The Manhattan Libertarian Party is calling their program "Guns For Tots," and they say they're doing it to protest a bill before the City Council that would ban the sale of most toy guns in New York City.

Sure. Ban toy guns. That'll cut down on the killings.

(Of course, that would probably make sense to those across the pond who made this same argument in the British gun threads...)

But the stupid thing is, the reason for the silly law is because apparently police can't tell the difference between a toy gun and a real gun, and shoot kids. Instead of training and punishing the police, their solution is to ban toy guns. Sheesh.

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek

But the stupid thing is, the reason for the silly law is because apparently police can't tell the difference between a toy gun and a real gun, and shoot kids. Instead of training and punishing the police, their solution is to ban toy guns. Sheesh.

And of course they also just can't restrict only the sale of toy guns which could reasonably be mistaken for a real gun. Funny, back when I was a kid every gun I could find didn't look anything like the real thing. They were all rediculously colored, styled, and even the similar looking ones had big orange/pink things stuck on the end of the gun.

But of course to bureaucrats, there is no such thing as a subtle distinction or a fuzzy boundary. No, all boundaries must be absolutely and arbitrarily drawn and enforced, and if there is a subtle difference in two things then they are in fact the same thing.

Thus toy guns that look nothing like real guns and could never be reasonably mistaken for a real gun are the same as toy replicas that look exactly like real guns.

[Tmy]

Can you even get a realistic toy gun anymore?? Their all florecent now!!!

When I was a kid I had a Trasnformer toy called Megatron. He transformed in a realistic looking handgun. Complete with scope and silencer. You cant find toys like that anyore.

[corplinx]

Yes. I guess its easier to ban toy guns rather than hire/train better police.

[shanek]

Well, it seems that stupidity reigns supreme.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WAB...tots_folo.html

Quote:

If the goal of the Manhattan Libertarian Party was to get people talking about toy guns and about the proposed law to ban them they were certainly successful. But if their goal was to get residents in one Harlem neighborhood to accept and understand their point of view, they were not quite as successful.

Harlem Resident: "Get out my neighborhood. You only come up here when you want something from me. Go away! Go away! Go away! Go away!"

Wanting something from you??? What exactly were they wanting from you, Mr. or Mrs. Harlem Resident? They were GIVING STUFF AWAY!!!!

Quote:

The giveaway, which the party called "Guns for Tots," coincided with a City Council hearing on a proposed law that would effectively ban the sale of toy guns in New York City. Lawmakers showed off fake weapons that had been spray painted to look real, and expressed outrage at the Libertarians, calling their giveaway flat out racist.

City Councilman Charles Barron, Brooklyn (D): "Knowing that these toy guns led to the deaths of some of our children, you must find other ways to promote your party."

Since when is standing up for our Constitutional rights racist? It's not the toy guns that lead to the deaths; it's the kids who spray-painted them black and used them to commit crimes! Stupid liberal....

[shanek]

And this is just rich:

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/54161.htm

Quote:

Manhattan Borough President C. Virginia Fields said she was outraged by the stunt.

"Our children should never be used as pawns in a political fight," she said in a news release.

Well, just what do you think the City Council was doing in the first place?

[Hazelip]

Shanek, I understand you're a bit staunch in your views, but just take a step back here, ok?

You can't train police to have x-ray vision. There is no training in the world that will help a cop distinguish between a real and a toy gun in the middle of the night. Remember Laser Tag when it was popular with the kids? I recall some cop shooting a kid who was holding that and running around at night.

Now, I'm not saying that banning toy guns is the answer. Hell, that Laser Tag gun looks different enough from a real gun that it probably wouldn't have been affected by any such ban. The cops, however, are still the same. They are responsible for split-second decisions, and you simply cannot train them on how to detect plastic from metal at a distance in the dark.

You really have only one of two options. You mourn the loss of the child and absolve the cops for an understandable, but tragic, mistake. **** happens. Or, you condemn the child for proving Darwin correct for running around in the dark waving a toy gun and ignoring police demands to drop it. Personally, I would be reacting in the manner of the latter form.

Shanek, you also can't seem to understand that what the white Libertarians want from the black Harlem residents is face time on the tube. Of course they want something from them, it's called exposure. To claim that they want nothing because they're giving away toy guns is asinine. They get media attention and exposure in the political limelight.

To also claim that it wasn't racially motivated is incredibly short sighted of you. They weren't in any of the affluent white neighborhoods handing out toy guns, were they? No, they were in Harlem handing out toy guns to black kids. Not white kids, not Jewish kids, not Arabic kids. Black. It was a targeted stunt to gain the most and best media exposure, and the media loves racial tension.

As far as using the children, well yeah. They both were. I think a valid argument would be that there were no politicians walking around with video cameras showing white hands taking toys guns away from children. There weren't any televised stunts of white politicians handing out board games to black kids. But, you've got myopic white guys walking around doling out toy guns to black kids with television camera crews in tow. Apples and oranges. They're both fruit, but decidedly different.

Quote:

Originally posted by Plutarck


And of course they also just can't restrict only the sale of toy guns which could reasonably be mistaken for a real gun. Funny, back when I was a kid every gun I could find didn't look anything like the real thing. They were all rediculously colored, styled, and even the similar looking ones had big orange/pink things stuck on the end of the gun.

You must be a lot younger than me. Those orange things on the ends of toy guns were added only in the last 15 years or so. Precisely so they wouldn't be mistaken for a real gun.

I don't know how much difference that would make in the dark.

When I was a kid, our toy guns looked very real. We wanted them to look as real as possible. Sure, you had your "ray guns" for when you were playing space man. But when you were playing cowboys and indians, you wanted the same rifle as Chuck Conners, and the same pistol as the Lone Ranger. For cops and robbers, you wanted a genuine looking revolver. And when playing army, you wanted a real looking toy machine gun or rifle to kill the japs or germans with.

And they looked pretty good.

The cap guns kind of sucked. The caps were on a roll-strip of paper and fired only half the time. After a while, you just didn't bother.

My widowed grandmother used to keep a toy cap gun in her kitchen to scare off burglar-rapists. She was sure (hoping?) one was gonna drop in sooner or later.

I have to agree with most of what Hazelip said. I think the Libertarians took the wrong approach, although I agree with the idea that taking away toy guns is about as stupid as it gets.

Outlaw toy guns and only deliquents will have toy guns.

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hazelip
You can't train police to have x-ray vision. There is no training in the world that will help a cop distinguish between a real and a toy gun in the middle of the night. Remember Laser Tag when it was popular with the kids? I recall some cop shooting a kid who was holding that and running around at night.

We aren't talking about laser tag here. We're talking about people committing crimes with toy guns painted to look like real guns. These people deserved what they got, and the actions of the police were proper.

Quote:

Now, I'm not saying that banning toy guns is the answer. Hell, that Laser Tag gun looks different enough from a real gun that it probably wouldn't have been affected by any such ban.

No, the ban affects all toy guns, no matter how brightly-colored they are or how much unlike real guns they look.

Quote:

The cops, however, are still the same. They are responsible for split-second decisions, and you simply cannot train them on how to detect plastic from metal at a distance in the dark.

But surely they can tell the difference between a Glock .40 and a day-glow green Super Squirter?

Quote:

You mourn the loss of the child and absolve the cops for an understandable, but tragic, mistake.

Except that I don't think it's a mistake at all. The kids in question modified their toys specifically for the purpose of convincing others they were real guns, and committing crimes with them.

Quote:

Shanek, you also can't seem to understand that what the white Libertarians want from the black Harlem residents is face time on the tube.

Uh, the leader of the protest, Jim Lesczynski, is a resident of Harlem. And I haven't seen any indication that they were targeting black kids. They were giving them out to any kids that came along. Should Leszynski have gone somewhere other than his home town to protest just because he's white?

Quote:

Of course they want something from them, it's called exposure. To claim that they want nothing because they're giving away toy guns is asinine. They get media attention and exposure in the political limelight.

Do you really thinkt hat was a factor at all? They wanted to call attention to a bad piece of legislation that's about to be passed. If they merely wanted exposure, they would have gone about it in a totally different way.

Quote:

To also claim that it wasn't racially motivated is incredibly short sighted of you. They weren't in any of the affluent white neighborhoods handing out toy guns, were they? No, they were in Harlem handing out toy guns to black kids. Not white kids, not Jewish kids, not Arabic kids. Black.

Show me anything which says they targeted black kids. And no, it's not just because they were in Harlem. White and hispanic kids live in Harlem, too. Isn't it racist to assume that handing them out in this area is a racist act?

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by LukeT
I have to agree with most of what Hazelip said. I think the Libertarians took the wrong approach, although I agree with the idea that taking away toy guns is about as stupid as it gets.

I agree that this wasn't the smartest or most effective way of protesting it. But like I said above, it wasn't any sillier than the law itself.

[Hazelip]

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek
[b]

We aren't talking about laser tag here. We're talking about people committing crimes with toy guns painted to look like real guns. These people deserved what they got, and the actions of the police were proper.

But surely they can tell the difference between a Glock .40 and a day-glow green Super Squirter?
[b]

Which is it? Painted to look like the real thing, or day glow colors? Day time or night time shootings? You can't have this both ways.

I think I will become an international (toy) arms dealer.

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hazelip
Which is it? Painted to look like the real thing, or day glow colors?

The guns involved in the shootings in questions were painted to look like the real thing. The ones they want to ban are day glow colors.

And I never specified any difference as to whether or not the shootings took place at day or night. The criminals took actions to convince others that the guns were real. Therefore, the officers acted accordingly. But working to ban toy guns as a result is complete lunacy.

[Hazelip]

So, you completely deny that accidental night shootings of children carrying toy guns ever happened? You really think this law is the result of a single incident involving criminal activity?

Hey, kid! You gotta permit for that Super Soaker?

...

I'm sorry, son. I couldn't get you a cap gun as they are outlawed now. So I got you this 1250 fps Crossman air pellet gun with 5000 rounds and ten CO2 cartridges! Yeeeeehaaawwww!

...

You need to have a talk with the Beaver, Ward. Every time I buy a new broom or mop, he breaks off the handle and turns it into a toy gun.

...

Now look here, Johnny. You WILL play with this Barbie doll, and you WILL like it! You hear me!?

...

[corplinx]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hazelip
So, you completely deny that accidental night shootings of children carrying toy guns ever happened?

There is a flaw in your reasoning. What kind of cop would shoot a child, whether or not he had a gun?

This toy gun ban is just another admission that police recruiting and training fails to some extent.

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
This toy gun ban is just another admission that police recruiting and training fails to some extent.

I think that the failure of training and recruiting for police officers is something that few people deny. You have to look at the monetary compensation for the work that they do, however. We can't whine about better training and personel until there is the budget to support that. Banning toy guns is not really the answer, but it sure is a cheap alternative.

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hazelip
So, you completely deny that accidental night shootings of children carrying toy guns ever happened?

Why don't you read what I wrote? The shootings in question occured when some kids modified their guns to look real and used them to commit a crime! Sheesh...

Quote:

Originally posted by Hazelip
So, you completely deny that accidental night shootings of children carrying toy guns ever happened? You really think this law is the result of a single incident involving criminal activity?

Quote:

Originally posted by Lucid One
I think that the failure of training and recruiting for police officers is something that few people deny. You have to look at the monetary compensation for the work that they do, however. We can't whine about better training and personel until there is the budget to support that. Banning toy guns is not really the answer, but it sure is a cheap alternative.

People get shot in hunting accidents all the time. People die in automobile accidents all the time. Shall we abolish beer, guns and cars?

Cars are used in a lot of crimes. Ban them.

We should ban sticks and twigs, too, because kids frequently play with them as pretend guns.

About the proposed law before the City Council:

Quote:

City Councilman David Weprin, Queens (D): "I think we're going to prevent a number of incidents in the future. If we save one life it's worthwile."

Yeah. And kids can't fight back or vote.

[Hazelip]

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek


Why don't you read what I wrote? The shootings in question occured when some kids modified their guns to look real and used them to commit a crime! Sheesh...

I'm sorry, but the issue of toy guns is more than just one incident. There is a history of children being shot by accident by police officers, often at night. You can restrict your view of the banning movement to just one incident, but that does not make you right.

http://www.oxnardpd.org/toyguns.htm

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek
Well, it seems that stupidity reigns supreme.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WAB...tots_folo.html



Wanting something from you??? What exactly were they wanting from you, Mr. or Mrs. Harlem Resident? They were GIVING STUFF AWAY!!!!

they were cynically using them to generate publicity.

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person


they were cynically using them to generate publicity.

No, they wer trying to call attention to a bad law being proposed.

But, knowing you, banning toy guns probably makes perfect sense to you...

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hazelip


I'm sorry, but the issue of toy guns is more than just one incident. There is a history of children being shot by accident by police officers, often at night. You can restrict your view of the banning movement to just one incident, but that does not make you right.

Congratulations. Your strawman just officially became a lie.

[Hazelip]

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek


Congratulations. Your strawman just officially became a lie.

Excuse me? Toy guns are being banned across the entire country city by city. Most of the reasoning behind these bannings is accidental shootings.

I never even said that banning the toy guns was a good idea. I happen to agree with you. Your premise that cops just need to be trained better, however, is ludicrous. I'm attempting to get you to see things outside your tight-lid Libertarian boxed view of the world of New York.

There is no strawman involved. I am not attempting to substitute one situation for another. I'm putting forth that the issue is far more complex than just people using toy guns to commit crimes. I concede that does happen. I concede that banning toys guns is not the answer. You, however, have such an insular view of the matter, that you refuse to acknowledge all the children who are shot at night holding unpainted toy guns. There is no lying or deception involved.

A Google cached page on gun safety for children addressing the issue of accidental shootings by police.

Toy gun bannings in Texas.

A grown man is shot on Halloween, at night holding a toy Desert Eagle.

East Brunswick, NJ officer nearly shoots a boy with a pellet gun.

Chicago ordinance against toy guns.

18 year old kid getting himself killed with a toy rifle...at night.

Lubbock teen shot and killed after pointing toy gun at cops. And deserved it.

Oaklahoma cop comes close to shooting another stupid kid with a toy gun.

In Racine, WI cops order a boy out of a car and handcuff him for playing with a Laser Tag gun.

Jacksonville, Fl police officers shoot a man walking out of a room in his home holding, not pointing, a toy gun.

As you can see, the issue of toy guns isn't so confined to a single incident as you would make it out to be. Yes, the recent robbery shootings may have been a catalyst, but it was already illegal to sell black or chrome toy guns in NYC. Those restrictions preceded the incident to which you are adhering as your shining example of lunacy. The issue is actually much more broad and common than a single robbery shooting in NYC. Open your eyes just a little bit, and you'll see that it isn't so cut-and-dry as you would make it appear to be.

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hazelip
Excuse me?

Excused. I'm talking about one local law and the motivations thereof. You're trying to say I'm claiming something completely different.

[Hazelip]

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek


Excused. I'm talking about one local law and the motivations thereof. You're trying to say I'm claiming something completely different.

You can't. There was already an existing ban. Without addressing the reasoning behind that ban, you can't adequately address this proposed expansion.

I'm not saying you're claiming anything different than you are. You claim this current expansion is the direct result of a single incident, and I'm pointing out that you are deliberately ignoring the significance of the pre-existing ban and the reasons behind it. You simply cannot take such a limited view of a situation with pre-existing conditions. That would be like claiming the common cold a killer of those affected with AIDS while ignoring the fact that AIDS inhibits the immune system needed to fight the common cold...

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hazelip
You can't. There was already an existing ban. Without addressing the reasoning behind that ban, you can't adequately address this proposed expansion.

Are you saying that the expansion of any given government power is done for the reasons government was originally given that power to begin with? Because I can provide a great many examples showing otherwise.

[Hazelip]

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek


Are you saying that the expansion of any given government power is done for the reasons government was originally given that power to begin with? Because I can provide a great many examples showing otherwise.

Shanek, keep trying to twist and turn, but it won't change anything. You want to talk about one law. That's what I was addressing. However, you refuse to acknowledge that a ban on toy guns was already in place in NYC, and you want to isolate the current movement to ban to a single incident involving a robbery using toy guns that were altered to look like real guns.

I'm not getting into some esoteric theory debate about the nature of government. I'm not here to discuss Libertarian views in the post modern society, or some other silly extraneous horse ****.

I'm not trying to substitute anything you're positing, I'm trying to demonstrate that this single law is not an isolated law. It's happening in Texas. It's happening in California. It's happening for reasons other than someone committing a robbery with a toy gun. Children are getting shot by police while holding toy guns.

I have agreed with you that banning toy guns is not the answer. You have steadfastly refused to provide just how one would train a police force to immediately, and accurately distinguish between a toy and real gun.

You simply must acknowledge that the issue of toy guns and police is far more broad than people using toy guns to commit crimes. You simply must acknowledge that toy guns present an impossible challenge to police officers.

That's it. I'm not saying that you're wrong about objecting to the banning of toy guns. I'm saying you're wrong to confine your view of the issue to one criminal incident and the resulting expansion of a previous law without taking into account the nature behind the previous law.

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hazelip
However, you refuse to acknowledge that a ban on toy guns was already in place in NYC,

Where have I refused to acknowledge such?

Quote:

and you want to isolate the current movement to ban to a single incident involving a robbery using toy guns that were altered to look like real guns.

Gee, couldn't be because the current movement is based on exactly that?

Quote:

I'm not getting into some esoteric theory debate about the nature of government. I'm not here to discuss Libertarian views in the post modern society, or some other silly extraneous horse ****.

Thank you for exposing your bias.

Quote:

[b]I'm not trying to substitute anything you're positing,[/]b

Yes, you are! I never said one thing about preceding laws in New York or any other laws regarding toy guns anywhere else in the country. You brought those in.

Quote:

You have steadfastly refused to provide just how one would train a police force to immediately, and accurately distinguish between a toy and real gun.

Not true. I answered that in this very thread.

[Hazelip]

Shanek, no matter how badly you want it to be, this issue is not so black and white.

Tell me, since I just read the thread over and I don't see any of your training suggestions, what exactly is your training suggestion?

You're right I brought all that other stuff in. Because the issue is far more complex than just one shooting in NYC. The fact that there was an existing ban in place is demonstrative of the fact that the city was aware of the same or other issues prompting the prior ban. To be willfully ignorant of that fact is absurd. To imply that only NYC is banning guns is absurd. To imply that other cities are banning guns for the very same issue is absurd. Toy guns exist outside NYC, you know...

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hazelip
Tell me, since I just read the thread over and I don't see any of your training suggestions, what exactly is your training suggestion?

First of all, accept that if someone modifies anything to look like a gun, and uses it to commit a crime, police have to respond accordingly. (That's actually the stupid thing about this—there's nothing at all wrong with the way the police responded to begin with.)

Second, recognize the methods that are already in place. One of your links mentioned the guy at a halloween party who was shot by a cop from outside even though no crime was being committed. The officer simply had no cause to fire.

I'm not proposing anything brand new or out of the ordinary. Just insisting that police be thoroughly trained in tried and true methods, which obviously isn't happening.

[Hazelip]

Actually, Shanek, the Halloween party story involved the man with the replica Desert Eagle turning around while aiming his gun at the officers. Since it was a costume party, he may have assumed the cops weren't really cops. The cops just opened up on reflex.

Still, however, you're being vague about these "tried and true" methods to detect painted plastic from 30 feet or more. There is no possible way to tell the difference in the split second needed for a cop to make a judgment regarding the authenticity of a gun aimed at him or her. None.

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek


No, they wer trying to call attention to a bad law being proposed.

But, knowing you, banning toy guns probably makes perfect sense to you...

there is a perfect logical reason given for banning the toy guns given, although you may disagree with it. their publicity stunt used the residents.

those handing out the guns, if they had some genuine concern, might have found something more constructive to do with their time.

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek


Why don't you read what I wrote? The shootings in question occured when some kids modified their guns to look real and used them to commit a crime! Sheesh...

so 'criminals' get shot, and everything is ok. perhaps they parents who loved them wanted to prevent them getting involved in crime.

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hazelip
Actually, Shanek, the Halloween party story involved the man with the replica Desert Eagle turning around while aiming his gun at the officers.

If it's the same story I'm thinking about, the officers were outside in the dark where the man couldn't even see them. As he turned, his weapon happened to be pointed out the window and the officer fired.

Quote:

Still, however, you're being vague about these "tried and true" methods to detect painted plastic from 30 feet or more.

Yet another strawman. I have said repeatedly that the officers who shot at the ones holding the weapons painted to look real were justified.

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
there is a perfect logical reason given for banning the toy guns given, although you may disagree with it.

Please state the logic, including all steps, premises and the lead to the conclusion.

Quote:

their publicity stunt used the residents.

They weren't "using" them. They were trying to make them aware of the proposed law and how ridiculous it is.

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
so 'criminals' get shot, and everything is ok.

Never said it. Stop lying.

What would you propose the officers do? Should they be endowed with some dort of psychic powers that instantly tell them whether or not a gun is real or not?

Quote:

perhaps they parents who loved them wanted to prevent them getting involved in crime.

If so, they likely wouldn't have committed any crime. I've already produced copious evidence of that.

[Hazelip]

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek


Yet another strawman. I have said repeatedly that the officers who shot at the ones holding the weapons painted to look real were justified.

No. I have not used a strawman once. I know you're desperate for me to, but I have not. I have attempted to illustrate how wide the scope of toy gun banning is and you have steadfastly refused it.

Furthermore, you have not actually stated how a police officer is to detect if a gun pointed directly at him, or civilians, is plastic or steel. So, Shanek, what are these miraculous training methods to which you refer?

I'll go on the record here as stating that I think it's perfect acceptable to shoot someone who is using a toy gun as a real weapon. That is, if the toy gun looks like a real gun, points like a real gun, and the one pointing gives every indication it is a real gun, the officer is not in any way wrong for shooting said person.

With that out in the open, how can you say that "better training" will prevent officers from shooting people holding realistic toy guns? It's a simple question, and no strawman at all. I'm asking you to defend your own proposition.