The Zapruder Film

[kc440_]

I've been egged on to do a separate thread on the Zapruder film. When you go to this site, you will read about the limo stop, which was removed from the final film. Proof that this stop even existed is shown by the forward motions of the first 4 people in the car -- Nellie Connally, Gov. John Connally, and the 2 secret service men in the front, one of whom, Mr. Greer, was driving. That sudden forward movement indicates the driver stepped on the brake.

kc440

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by kc440_

I've been egged on to do a separate thread on the Zapruder film. When you go to this site, you will read about the limo stop, which was removed from the final film. Proof that this stop even existed is shown by the forward motions of the first 4 people in the car -- Nellie Connally, Gov. John Connally, and the 2 secret service men in the front, one of whom, Mr. Greer, was driving. That sudden forward movement indicates the driver stepped on the brake.

kc440

Nothing was removed from the film kc. Even the JFK CTers were able to debunk that nonsense.

[Oliver]

Well, the topic is not very interesting to me since
we will never know until the documents are released
but this one explains a lot:

magic bullet: (graphic warning!)
http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=909...37&q=jfk+bullet

explanation magic bullet: (graphic warning!)
http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-59...76&q=jfk+bullet

By the way: When are the documents released?

[kc440_]

Originally Posted by Oliver

By the way: When are the documents released?

I don't know what documents you are referring to. The Zapruder evidence is the film itself. There is supposed to be another film that was taken from a similar vantage point. I understand ABC, CBS, NBC and Life magazine have this film.

kc440

[kc440_]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

Nothing was removed from the film kc. Even the JFK CTers were able to debunk that nonsense.

Not the JFK CTers I know. A private Kennedy Assassination Forum, of which I was a part for years, believes there is another film and that the Z-film was a hoax. They believe the limo stop was taken out. If you watch the footage, you'll see the bodies moving forward simultaneously because the limo had stopped.

kc440

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by kc440_

I don't know what documents you are referring to. The Zapruder evidence is the film itself. There is supposed to be another film that was taken from a similar vantage point. I understand ABC, CBS, NBC and Life magazine have this film.

kc440

As far i know some important documents are about to be released
in 2060(?) I don´t remember the date but it was about official
documents regarding the assassination.

[kc440_]

Originally Posted by Oliver

As far i know some important documents are about to be released in 2060(?) I don´t remember the date but it was about official documents regarding the assassination.

I know that Jackie Kennedy made an audio tape a few years before she died. It is not to be played until all her children are deceased. Only Caroline is left. I'll never live to see it.

kc440

[Oliver]

Why not? How old are you if i may ask you this?

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by kc440_

I've been egged on to do a separate thread on the Zapruder film. When you go to this site, you will read about the limo stop, which was removed from the final film. Proof that this stop even existed is shown by the forward motions of the first 4 people in the car -- Nellie Connally, Gov. John Connally, and the 2 secret service men in the front, one of whom, Mr. Greer, was driving. That sudden forward movement indicates the driver stepped on the brake.

kc440

Isn't it strange that this "stop" wasn't recorded by all the other cameras there, and wasn't noticed by any witnesses or by anyone involved?

Strange indeed!

Ugh.

By the way, kc, you didn't include the link to the site you mentioned. Or don't they use links on Planet X?

[CurtC]

Originally Posted by Oliver

By the way: When are the documents released?

In the early 1990s, largely as a result of the movie JFK, congress created the Assassination Records Review Board, which was given the task of reviewing all the records available and releasing the ones that don't give away secrets, such as names of agents and spy methods. Pretty much everything is released now. For example, the Operation Northwoods documents that we're so familiar with here were released by the ARRB.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arrb/index.htm

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by CurtC

In the early 1990s, largely as a result of the movie JFK, congress created the Assassination Records Review Board, which was given the task of reviewing all the records available and releasing the ones that don't give away secrets, such as names of agents and spy methods. Pretty much everything is released now. For example, the Operation Northwoods documents that we're so familiar with here were released by the ARRB.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arrb/index.htm

So what are these documents that will be released in 206x i remember
so well from different JFK-docus? (I guess: Christophera-phenomena )

[Crungy]

Is this Zapradur tampering similiar to the Oswald backyard photo tampering? Like some the CT claims that the 9/11 attacks were a conspiracy facilitated by top secret high tech weapons, known only to a few, the JFKers seem to believe that the men behind the Camelot hit had an early prototype of Photoshop way back in 1963.

Originally Posted by kc440_
Here goes. I can remember waiting in the car on election day 1960 as my parents went in to vote for Kennedy. Then this great man, who had a vision for this country, was gone in an obscene slaughter.

We had a nun in school who thought Kennedy was great. Then he was killed. At this time, we had an influx of Cuban kids into our school, in West New York, NJ. Every once in awhile, the nun would look at a Cuban kid and say, "Why don't you go back to where you came from?" We kids didn't understand what was going on. She picked on this tall, chubby Cuban kid, God knows why. There were 44 kids in the class. This kid had to go to the closet in back of the room and take out half the coats. If he dropped a coat, he had to put his own coat near the doorway and we were all instructed to "Walk on his coat." So we'd be pulling the coats from his arms and invariably we used his coat as a doormat. It all seemed funny.

After those 4 days in November 1963, my family didn't talk about it. We never talked about it. But it was always there.

Lenny Bruce and Mark Lane began to criticize the Warren Commission. This eventually trickled down to me. There was another killer on the grassy knoll. I began to see photos of Lee Harvey Oswald in Life mag. The "backyard" photos looked just what they were: one man's head stuck on another man's body. I noticed Oswald looked different in some pictures. The man who was shot by Ruby, had a flat head in profile -- weird. But I saw other pictures that really didn't look like him.

This was the beginning of my belief in conspiracy.

What would satisfy me in connection with President Kennedy? If George Herbert Walker Bush was arrested and convicted of involvement in Kennedy's death. If George W. Bush was arrested and convicted in the killing of so many people on 9/11 and bringing about this illegal war with Iraq. Wasn't it a strange coincidence that Bush was visiting England the day the British subway was bombed?

The only thing I can do about it is to educate people, get them thinking. I'm not going to walk around in a circle with a cardboard sign. And I'm not half as knowledgable as Rich DellaRosa of jfkresearch.com. He would put Gravy in his place in no time.

I hope that answers your questions.

kc440
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/oswald.htm#photos
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/photos.txt
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/experts.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/groden1.htm

Belief, but no evidence required, eh? Sounds like a prerequisite to become a CT.

[CurtC]

Originally Posted by Oliver

So what are these documents that will be released in 206x i remember so well from different JFK-docus?

Read this article. If you want, you can skip about halfway down to the heading "The Assassination Records Review Board."

Quote:

Rather, the Board's most important task is to decide what should not be opened immediately, doing so in light of the act's powerful admonition that there be clear and convincing evidence in favor of postponement. In simplest terms, the Board has to decide whether materials, if opened, would reveal:

First, the existence of an intelligence agent who currently requires protection;

Second, an intelligence source or method currently being utilized or reasonably expected to be utilized, the disclosure of which would interfere with the conduct of intelligence activities; and

Third, any other matter currently relating to the military defense, intelligence operations, or the conduct of foreign affairs, the disclosure of which would demonstrably impair national security.

The act provides other grounds for postponement. These include exposure of an informant to a substantial risk of harm; exposure of a person to an unwarranted invasion of privacy; the possibility of compromising a relationship between a United States government agent and a confidential source; and the revelation of a security procedure utilized to protect the president.

[Oliver]

Thank you for the article, CurtC. This was a very
good one to understand some internal procedures
concerning securty and classifying documents...

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by Crungy

Is this Zapradur tampering similiar to the Oswald backyard photo tampering?

It's typical CT thinking: if the photographs don't match the theory, well then the photos must have been tampered with!

Wait and see. In a few years the 9/11 CTers will be claiming the thousands of photos taken on 9/11 and it's aftermath were ALL tampered with by the conspirators. We're already seeing this mentality with the TVfakery gang.

As for the contention that George H.W. Bush was behind the JFK assassation, well that comes straight from Alex Jones bizarroland. Know what their "evidence" is? George and Barbara can't remember what they were doing upon hearing of JFK's assassination! Too bad Johnny Cochran is dead cause the Bushs could sure use him.

[CurtC]

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

As for the contention that George H.W. Bush was behind the JFK assassation, well that comes straight from Alex Jones bizarroland. Know what their "evidence" is? George and Barbara can't remember what they were doing upon hearing of JFK's assassination!

There was a memo from Hoover that mentioned "George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency." The memo is discussing the reaction of the anti-Castro Cuban community in Miami to the assassination. The former president says it was someone else with the same name.

Here is the memo:http://tomflocco.com/Docs/Jfk/PresJfkBush.gif

How do you get the "qimg" tag to work?

[Deus Ex Machina]

Originally Posted by Crungy

What would satisfy me in connection with President Kennedy? .

not sure - a better brand of tinfoil for the hat?

[Crungy]

Quote:

What would satisfy me in connection with President Kennedy?

Originally Posted by Deus Ex Machina

not sure - a better brand of tinfoil for the hat?

Ack! That's a quote from kc440! I see that screwed up my post and forgot to clearly delineate kc440 verbiage from mine. It's too late for me to go back and edit my post.

[JAStewart]

Originally Posted by Gravy

Isn't it strange that this "stop" wasn't recorded by all the other cameras there, and wasn't noticed by any witnesses or by anyone involved?

Strange indeed!

Ugh.

1) Houston Chronicle Reporter Bo Byers (rode in White House Press Bus)---twice stated that the Presidential Limousine "almost came to a stop, a dead stop"; in fact, he has had nightmares about this. [C-SPAN, 11/20/93, "Journalists Remember The Kennedy Assassination"; see also the 1/94 "Fourth Decade": article by Sheldon Inkol];

2) ABC Reporter Bob Clark (rode in the National Press Pool Car)---Reported on the air that the limousine stopped on Elm Street during the shooting [WFAA/ ABC, 11/22/63];

3) UPI White House Reporter Merriman Smith (rode in the same car as Clark, above)---"The President's car, possibly as much as 150 or 200 yards ahead, seemed to falter briefly" [UPI story, 11/23/63, as reported in "Four Days", UPI, p. 32];

4) DPD motorcycle officer James W. Courson (one of two mid-motorcade motorcycles)--"The limousine came to a stop and Mrs. Kennedy was on the back. I noticed that as I came around the corner at Elm. Then the Secret Service agent [Clint Hill] helped push her back into the car, and the motorcade took off at a high rate of speed." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 129];

5) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Joe Dale (one of two rear mid-motorcade motorcycles)---"After the shots were fired, the whole motorcade came to a stop. I stood and looked through the plaza, noticed there was commotion, and saw people running around his [JFK's] car. It started to move, then it slowed again; that's when I saw Mrs. Kennedy coming back on the trunk and another guy [Clint Hill] pushing her back into the car." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 134];

6) Clemon Earl Johnson---"You could see it [the limo] speed up and then stop, then speed up, and you could see it stop while they [sic; Clint Hill] threw Mrs. Kennedy back up in the car. Then they just left out of there like a bat of the eye and were just gone." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 80];

7) Malcolm Summers---"Then there was some hesitation in the caravan itself, a momentary halt, to give the Secret Service man [Clint Hill] a chance to catch up with the car and jump on. It seems to me that it started back up by the time he got to the car "["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 104];

8) NBC reporter Robert MacNeil (rode in White House Press Bus)---"The President's driver slammed on the brakes---after the third shot " ["The Way We Were, 1963: The Year Kennedy Was Shot" by Robert MacNeil (1988), p. 193];

9) AP photographer Henry Burroughs (rode in Camera Car #2)---" we heard the shots and the motorcade stopped." [letter, Burroughs to Palamara, dated 10/14/98];

10) DPD Earle Brown---" The first I noticed the [JFK's] car was when it stopped..after it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped." [6 H 233];

11) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Hargis (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---" At that time [immediately before the head shot] the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say 'Get going.' I felt blood hit me in the face and the Presidential car stopped almost immediately after that." [6 H 294; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb and Perry Adams (1974), p. 71; 6/26/95 videotaped interview with Mark Oakes & Ian Griggs: "That guy (Greer) slowed down, maybe his orders was to slow down slowed down almost to a stop." Like Posner, Hargis feels Greer gave Oswald the chance to kill Kennedy.];

12) DPD D.V. Harkness---" I saw the first shot and the President's car slow[ed] down to almost a stop I heard the first shot and saw the President's car almost come to a stop and some of the agents [were] piling on the car." [6 H 309];

13) DPD James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---stated that the Presidential limousine stopped momentarily after the first shot (according to the testimony of Mark Lane; corroborated by the testimony of fellow DPD motorcycle officer Marion Baker: Chaney told him that " at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped Now I have heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely." [2 H 44-45 (Lane)---referring to Chaney's statement as reported in the "Houston Chronicle" dated 11/24/63; 3 H 266 (Baker)];

14) DPD motorcycle officer B.J. Martin (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---saw JFK's car stop " just for a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

15) DPD motorcycle officer Douglas L. Jackson (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---stated " that the car just all but stopped just a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

16) Texas Highway Patrolman Joe Henry Rich (drove LBJ's car)---stated that " the motorcade came to a stop momentarily." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

17) DPD J.W. Foster---stated that " immediately after President Kennedy was struck the car in which he was riding pulled to the curb." [CD 897, pp. 20, 21; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

18) Secret Service Agent Sam Kinney (driver of the follow-up car behind JFK's limo)---indicates, via his report to Chief Rowley, that Greer hit the gas after the fatal head shot to JFK and after the President's slump to the left toward Jackie. [18 H 731-732]. From the HSCA's 2/26/78 interview of Kinney: "He also remarked that 'when Greer (the driver of the Presidential limousine) looked back, his foot must have come off the accelerator' Kinney observed that at the time of the first shot, the speed of the motorcade was '3 to 5 miles an hour.'" [RIF#180-10078-10493; author's interviews with Kinney, 1992-1994];

19) Secret Service Agent Clint Hill (follow-up car, rear of limo)---" I jumped from the follow-up car and ran toward the Presidential automobile. I heard a second firecracker-type noise SA Greer had, as I jumped onto the Presidential automobile, accelerated the Presidential automobile forward." [18 H 742; Nix film; "The Secret Service" and "Inside The Secret Service" videos from 1995];

20) Secret Service Agent John Ready (follow-up car)---" I heard what sounded like fire crackers going off from my post on the right front running board. The President's car slowed " [18 H 750];

21) Secret Service Agent Glen Bennett (follow-up car)---after the fatal head shot "the President's car immediately kicked into high gear." [18 H 760; 24 H 541-542]. During his 1/30/78 HSCA interview, Bennett said the follow-up car was moving at "10-12 m.p.h.", an indication of the pace of the motorcade on Elm Street [RIF#180-10082-10452];

22) Secret Service Agent "Lem" Johns (V.P. follow-up car)---" I felt that if there was danger [it was] due to the slow speed of the automobile." [18 H 774]. During his 8/8/78 HSCA interview, Johns said that "Our car was moving very slowly", a further indication of the pace of the motorcade on Elm Street [RIF# 180-10074-10079; Altgens photo];

23) Secret Service Agent Winston Lawson (rode in the lead car)---" I think it [the lead car on Elm Street] was a little further ahead [of JFK's limo] than it had been in the motorcade, because when I looked back we were further ahead." [4 H 352], an indication of the lag in the limo during the assassination.;

24) Secret Service Agent William "Tim" McIntyre (follow-up car)---"He stated that Greer, driver of the Presidential limousine, accelerated after the third shot." [RIF#180-10082-10454: 1/31/78 HSCA interview];

25) Mrs. Earle ("Dearie") Cabell (rode in the Mayor's car)---the motorcade "stopped dead still when the noise of the shot was heard." [7 H 487; "Accessories After the Fact" by Sylvia Meagher (1967), p. 4; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

26) Phil Willis---" The [Presidential] party had come to a temporary halt before proceeding on to the underpass." [7 H 497; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 24];

27) Mrs. Phil (Marilyn) Willis---after the fatal head shot, "she stated the Presidential limousine paused momentarily and then sped away under the Triple Underpass." [FBI report dated 6/19/64; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 179];

28) Mrs. John (Nellie) Connally (rode in JFK's limo)---JFK's car did not accelerate until after the fatal head shot. [4 H 147; WR 50; "Best Evidence" by David Lifton (1988), p. 122];

29) Texas Governor John Connally (rode in JFK's limo and himself a victim of the assassination)---" After the third shot, I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, 'Bill, get out of line.' And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said 'Get us to a hospital quick' at about this time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of line." [4 H 133; WR50; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 13];

30) Dallas Morning News reporter Robert Baskin (rode in the National Press Pool Car)---stated that " the motorcade ground to a halt." ["Dallas Morning News", 11/23/63, p. 2; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

31) Dallas Morning News reporter Mary Woodward (Pillsworth)---" Instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt."; she saw the President's car come to a halt after the first shot. Then, after hearing two more shots, close together, the car sped up. [2 H 43 (Lane); DMN, 11/23/63; 24 H 520; "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" 1988]. She spoke forcefully about the car almost coming to a stop and the lack of proper reaction by the Secret Service in 1993. [C-SPAN, 11/20/93, "Journalists Remember The Kennedy Assassination"; see also the 1/94 "Fourth Decade": article by Sheldon Inkol];

32) AP photographer James Altgens---"He said the President's car was proceeding at about ten miles per hour at the time [of the shooting] Altgens stated the driver of the Presidential limousine apparently realized what had happened and speeded up toward the Stemmons Expressway." [FBI report dated 6/5/64; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 203] "The car's driver realized what had happened and almost if by reflex speeded up toward the Stemmons Expressway." [AP dispatch, 11/22/63; "Cover-Up" by Stewart Galanor (1998), Document 28];

33) Alan Smith---" the car was ten feet from me when a bullet hit the President in the forehead the car went about five feet and stopped." ["Chicago Tribune", 11/23/63, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

34) Mrs. Ruth M. Smith---confirmed that the Presidential limousine had come to a stop. [CD 206, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

35) TSBD Supervisor Roy Truly---after the first shot " I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in the area [it stopped] for a second or two or something like that I just saw it stop." [3 H 221, 266];

36) L.P. Terry---" The parade stopped right in front of the building [TSBD]." ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 26];

37) Ochus V. Campbell---after hearing shots, "he then observed the car bearing President Kennedy to slow down, a near stop, and a motorcycle policeman rushed up. Immediately following this, he observed the car rush away from the scene." [22 H 845];

38) Peggy Joyce Hawkins---she was on the front steps of the TSBD and " estimated that the President's car was less than 50 feet away from her when he was shot, that the car slowed down almost coming to a full stop." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

39) Billy Lovelady---"I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped." [22 H 662];

40) An unnamed witness---from his vantage point in the courthouse building, stated that "The cavalcade stopped there and there was bedlam." ["Dallas Times Herald", 11/24/63; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

41) Postal Inspector Harry Holmes (from the Post Office Annex, while viewing through binoculars)---"The car almost came to a stop, and Mrs. Kennedy pulled loose of him and crawled out over the turtleback of this Presidential car." [7 H 291]. He noticed the car pull to a halt, and Holmes thought: "They are dodging something being thrown." ["The Day Kennedy Was Shot" by Jim Bishop (1967), p. 176];

42) Peggy Burney---she stated that JFK's car had come to a stop. ["Dallas Times Herald", 11/24/63; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97; interestingly, during the 11/20/93 C-SPAN "Journalists Remember" conference, Vivian Castleberry of the Dallas Times Herald made the claim that her first cousin, Peggy Burney, was Abraham Zapruder's assistant "and was next to him when he shot his famous film. She called and said, 'Vivian, today I saw the President die.'"!---See Sheldon Inkol's article on this conference in the January 1994 "Fourth Decade"];

43) David Broeder--"The President's car paused momentarily, then on orders from a Secret Service agent, spurted ahead." ["Washington Evening Star", 11/23/63, p. 8];

44) Sam Holland---stated that the Presidential limousine slowed down on Elm Street. [taped interview with Holland conducted in April, 1965];

45) Maurice Orr---noted that the motorcade stopped. [Arch Kimbrough, Mary Ferrell, and Sue Fitch, "Chronology", unpublished manuscript; see also "Conspiracy" by Anthony Summers, pages 20 & 23];

46) Mrs. Herman (Billy P.) Clay---"When I heard the second and third shots I knew someone was shooting at the President. I did not know if the President had been hit, but I knew something was wrong. At this point the car President Kennedy was in slowed and I, along with others, moved toward the President's car. As we neared the car it sped off." [22 H 641];

47) Mrs. Rose Clark---"She noted that the President's automobile came almost to a halt following the three shots, before it picked up speed and drove away." [24 H 533];

48) Hugh Betzner---"I looked down the street and I could see the President's car and another one and they looked like the cars were stopped then the President's car sped on under the underpass." [19 H 467];

49) John Chism---after the shots he saw "the motorcade beginning to speed up." ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 29];

50) Bill Newman---after the fatal head shot "the car momentarily stopped and the driver seemed to have a radio or phone up to his ear and he seemed to be waiting on some word. Some Secret Service men reached into their car and came out with some sort of machine gun. Then the cars roared off "; "I've maintained that they stopped. I still say they did. It was only a momentary stop, but" ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 70; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 96] "I believe Kennedy's car came to a full stop after the final shot." ["JFK: Breaking The Silence" by Bill Sloan (1993), p. 169] "I believe it was the passenger in the front seat [Roy Kellerman]---there were two men in the front seat---had a telephone or something to his ear and the car momentarily stopped. Now everywhere that you read about it, you don't read anything about the car stopping. And when I say "stopped" I mean very momentarily, like they hit the brakes and just a few seconds passed and then they floorboarded [sic] and accelerated on." [11/20/97 videotaped interview with Bill Law, Mark Row, & Ian Griggs, as transcribed in "November Patriots" by Connie Kritzberg & Larry Hancock (1998), p. 362] "One of the two men in the front seat of the car had a telephone in his hand, and as I was looking back at the car covering my son, I can remember seeing the tail lights of the car, and just for a moment they hesitated and stopped, and then they floorboarded [sic] the car and shot off." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 96];

51) Charles Brehm---"Brehm expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move some 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot. After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of sight." [22 H 837-838];

52) Mary Moorman---"She recalls that the President's automobile was moving at the time she took the second picture, and when she heard the shots, and has the impression that the car either stopped momentarily or hesitated and then drove off in a hurry." [22 H 838-839];

53) Jean Hill---"The motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out and I would say it [JFK's limo] was just approximately, if not---it couldn't have been in the same position, I'm sure it wasn't, but just a very, very short distance from where it had been. It [JFK's limo] was just almost stunned." [6 H 208-209; Hill's testimony on this matter was dramatized in the Oliver Stone movie "JFK" (1991): "The driver had stopped-I don't know what was wrong with that driver." See also "JFK: The Book of the Film" (1992), p. 122. Therein is referenced a March 1991 conversation with Jean Hill.];

54) James Leon Simmons---"The car stopped or almost stopped." [2/15/69 Clay Shaw trial testimony; "Forgive My Grief Vol. III" by Penn Jones, p. 53; "High Treason" by Groden & Livingstone (1990 Berkley Edition), p. 22];

55) Norman Similas---"The Presidential limousine had passed me and slowed down slightly." ["Liberty" Magazine, 7/15/64, p. 13; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 233];

56) Presidential Aide Ken O'Donnell (rode in the follow-up car)---" If the Secret Service men in the front had reacted quicker to the first two shots at the President's car, if the driver had stepped on the gas before instead of after the fatal third shot was fired, would President Kennedy be alive today? [as quoted in Marrs' "Crossfire", p. 248, based off a passage from O'Donnell & Powers' book "Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye"] On page 40 of O'Donnell's book "Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye", the aide reports that "Greer had been remorseful all day, feeling that he could have saved President Kennedy's life by swerving the car or speeding suddenly after the first shots." Indeed, William E. Sale, an airman first class aircraft mechanic assigned to Carswell AFB and who was stationed at Love Field before, during, and after the assassination, stated that "when the agent who was driving JFK's car came back to Air Force One he was as white as a ghost and had to be helped back to the plane *[undated Sale letter, provided to the author by Martin Shackelford];

57) Presidential aide Dave Powers (rode in the follow-up car)---" At that time we were traveling very slowly At about the time of the third shot, the President's car accelerated sharply." [7 H 473-475]. On 11/22/88, Powers was interviewed by CBS' Charles Kuralt. Powers remarked about the remorse Greer felt about not speeding up in time to save JFK"s life and agreed with Kuralt that, if Greer had sped up BEFORE the fatal head shot instead of afterwards, JFK might still be alive today [CBS, 11/22/88---this is a very dramatic and compelling short interview]. If that weren't enough, the ARRB's Tom Samoluk told me that, during the course of an interview he conducted in 1996 in which the Board was in the process of obtaining Powers' film, Powers said that he agreed with my take on the Secret Service!;

58) Texas Senator Ralph Yarborough (rode in LBJ's car)---" When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop) After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared away to the Parkland Hospital."; " The cars all stopped. I put in there [his affidavit], 'I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but for the protection of future Presidents, they [the Secret Service] should be trained to take off when a shot is fired." [7 H 439-440; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 482; see also "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" 1988: "The Secret Service in the car in front of us kind of casually looked around and were rather slow to react."];

59) First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy (rode in the Presidential limousine)---"We could see a tunnel in front of us. Everything was really slow then [immediately after shooting] And just being down in the car with his head in my lap. And it just seemed an eternity And finally I remember a voice behind me, or something, and then I remember the people in the front seat, or somebody, finally knew something was wrong, and a voice yelling, which must have been Mr. Hill, "Get to the hospital," or maybe it was Mr. Kellerman, in the front seat.We were really slowing turning the corner [Houston&Elm] I remember a sensation of enormous speed, which must have been when we took off those poor men in the front" [5 H 179-181] Mary Gallagher reported in her book: "She mentioned one Secret Service man who had not acted during the crucial moment, and said bitterly to me, 'He might just as well have been Miss Shaw!'" ["My Life With Jacqueline Kennedy" by Mary Barelli Gallagher (1969), p. 342---Secret Service Agent Marty Venker and Jackie biographer C. David Heymann confirm that this unnamed agent was indeed Greer ("Confessions of an Ex-Secret Service Agent", p. 25; "A Woman Called Jackie", p. 401)] Jackie also told Gallagher that "You should get yourself a good driver so that nothing ever happens to you" [Ibid., p. 351] * William Manchester, who interviewed Greer, tells us what the driver told Jackie on 11/22/63 at Parkland Hospital: "Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, oh my God, oh my God. I didn't mean to do it[?!?!], I didn't hear[who, Kellerman?], I should have swerved the car[how about hitting the gas!], I couldn't help it[!]. Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, as soon as I saw it[?] I swerved. If only I'd seen it in time! Oh!" (Manchester, p.290). 59 witnesses (10 police officers, 7 Secret Service agents, 37 spectators, 2 Presidential aides, 1 Senator, Governor Connally, and Jackie Kennedy) and the Zapruder film document Secret Service agent William R. Greer's deceleration of the presidential limousine, as well as his two separate looks back at JFK during the assassination (Greer denied all of this to the Warren Commission-2HGREER[see his entire testimony]). By decelerating from an already slow 11.2 mph, Greer greatly endangered the President's life, and, as even Gerald Posner admitted, Greer contributed greatly to the success of the assassination. When we consider that Greer disobeyed a direct order from his superior, Roy Kellerman, to get out of line BEFORE the fatal shot struck the President's head, it is hard to give Agent Greer the benefit of the doubt. As ASAIC Roy H. Kellerman said: "Greer then looked in the back of the car. Maybe he didn't believe me"("The Death of a President" by William Manchester, p.160). Clearly, Greer was responsible, at fault, and felt remorse. In short, Greer had survivor's guilt

[Nevermore]

Originally Posted by Crungy

Is this Zapradur tampering similiar to the Oswald backyard photo tampering? Like some the CT claims that the 9/11 attacks were a conspiracy facilitated by top secret high tech weapons, known only to a few, the JFKers seem to believe that the men behind the Camelot hit had an early prototype of Photoshop way back in 1963.

The capability to manipulate photographs was available long before Photoshop. Stalin and the Soviets made extensive use of it having enemies like Trotsky removed from photos.

Oswald claimed that the photo was a fake during questioning before he was killed. The House Select Committee on Assasinations declared it genuine in 1970.

I don't know if the Oswald photos were manipulated or not. However, to say that the technology didn't exist to do so at the time is incorrect.

[Gravy]

JA, I know the limo slowed down. How do I know that? It's on film!

[Crungy]

Originally Posted by Nevermore

The capability to manipulate photographs was available long before Photoshop. Stalin and the Soviets made extensive use of it having enemies like Trotsky removed from photos.

Oswald claimed that the photo was a fake during questioning before he was killed. The House Select Committee on Assasinations declared it genuine in 1970.

I don't know if the Oswald photos were manipulated or not. However, to say that the technology didn't exist to do so at the time is incorrect.

The infamous Stalin "vanishing history" pics are quite crude when compared the "technololgy" required to fake the backyard and JFK autoposy photos in a manner which would fool the photographic experts who investigated the pictures. Please read these links Nevermore. Marina Oswald admitted to taking the backyard photos. Oswald also sent an autographed copy of one of those pictures to a friend.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/oswald.htm#photos
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/photos.txt
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/experts.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/groden1.htm

[JAStewart]

Originally Posted by Gravy

JA, I know the limo slowed down. How do I know that? It's on film!

See quotes 2 & 10 for a start

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by Crungy

The infamous Stalin "vanishing history" pics are quite crude when compared the "technololgy" required to fake the backyard and JFK autoposy photos in a manner which would fool the photographic experts who investigated the pictures.

Not to mention really, really fast! The Dallas PD seized the backyard photo negative early in the afternoon of Nov. 23, showed it to Oswald that evening. Just a few hours to decide what to do, get everyone, including Marina, the Dallas PD, and the FBI in on it AND doctor the photo!

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by JAStewart

See quotes 2 & 10 for a start

See my previous post for a finish!

Or are you actually in the "every film and still photo of the JFK assassination was a fake" camp?

[Nevermore]

Originally Posted by Crungy

The infamous Stalin "vanishing history" pics are quite crude when compared the "technololgy" required to fake the backyard and JFK autoposy photos in a manner which would fool the photographic experts who investigated the pictures. Please read these links Nevermore. Marina Oswald admitted to taking the backyard photos. Oswald also sent an autographed copy of one of those pictures to a friend.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/oswald.htm#photos
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/photos.txt
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/experts.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/groden1.htm

The "vanishing history" pictures were also done in the 1930s. Are you assuming that photo manipulation techiniques did not improve over the course of 30 years?

I found this paper to be informative, especially as to the merits of the expert analysis presented to House Select Committee on Assasinations:

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/the_cri...rd_photos.html

If one takes the position that Oswald was set up then it isn't a reach to assume that the photos were prepared before the assasination.

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by Nevermore

If one takes the position that Oswald was set up then it isn't a reach to assume that the photos were prepared before the assasination.

So Oswald knew in advance that he was going to be set up and willingly gave up the backyard photo to be doctored? Or did the conspirators pay Marina to take the photo and pass it on to them?

Get some common sense.

[TruthSeeker1234]

The real tipoff is when you see everybody in the limo lurch forward together, as if the driver hit the brakes, only the car appears to keep going the same speed. I think the Zapruder film had frames taken out.

Have you guys seen the stablized version of the Zapruder film?

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by TruthSeeker1234

I think the Zapruder film had frames taken out.

Of course you do.

[Nevermore]

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

So Oswald knew in advance that he was going to be set up and willingly gave up the backyard photo to be doctored? Or did the conspirators pay Marina to take the photo and pass it on to them?

Get some common sense.

No. Oswald would not have known he was being set up in advance.

Sorry this is too complicated for you to understand. I'll talk slower and use smaller words.

[kc440_]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

Nothing was removed from the film kc. Even the JFK CTers were able to debunk that nonsense.

Some JFK assassination researchers are disinformationalists. They couldn't have debunked "Murder in Dealey Plaza," or "Assassination Science or The Great Zapruder Film Hoax."

kc440

[twinstead]

Is there anything that can be analysed with ideological blinders on that can't be declared a fake if you really want it to be?

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by Nevermore

No. Oswald would not have known he was being set up in advance.

Sorry this is too complicated for you to understand. I'll talk slower and use smaller words.

So then how did the evil conspirators get the backyard photo before November 23rd? Did they get it from the CIA, the FBI, the pro-Castro Cubans, the anti-Castro Cubans, Marina's KGB uncle, the Dallas PD or the Mafia?

Again, get some common sense.

[kc440_]

Originally Posted by Gravy

Isn't it strange that this "stop" wasn't recorded by all the other cameras there, and wasn't noticed by any witnesses or by anyone involved?

Strange indeed!

Ugh.

By the way, kc, you didn't include the link to the site you mentioned. Or don't they use links on Planet X?

I think the link you want is: www.assassinationscience.com/johncostella/jfk/intro/fast.html

All the photos and films made that day were confiscated by the "Secret Service." All of these films have been altered. The Moorman photo is a good example. The grassy knoll is so dark. But in other photos it was sunny and light.

kc440

[kc440_]

Originally Posted by Gravy

Isn't it strange that this "stop" wasn't recorded by all the other cameras there, and wasn't noticed by any witnesses or by anyone involved?

Strange indeed!

Ugh.

By the way, kc, you didn't include the link to the site you mentioned. Or don't they use links on Planet X?

All photos and films seized that day by Secret Service, have been tampered with.

kc440

[kc440_]

Originally Posted by CurtC

In the early 1990s, largely as a result of the movie JFK, congress created the Assassination Records Review Board, which was given the task of reviewing all the records available and releasing the ones that don't give away secrets, such as names of agents and spy methods. Pretty much everything is released now. For example, the Operation Northwoods documents that we're so familiar with here were released by the ARRB.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arrb/index.htm

Don't believe everything you read. McAdams is a liar and disinformationalist.

kc440

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by kc440_

All the photos and films made that day were confiscated by the "Secret Service." All of these films have been altered.

kc440, I agree with your sig that says that this forum should not have name calling so I'm just going to say I'm so sorry for you.

[kc440_]

Originally Posted by Crungy

Is this Zapradur tampering similiar to the Oswald backyard photo tampering? Like some the CT claims that the 9/11 attacks were a conspiracy facilitated by top secret high tech weapons, known only to a few, the JFKers seem to believe that the men behind the Camelot hit had an early prototype of Photoshop way back in 1963.

Originally Posted by kc440_ http://forums.randi.org/helloworld/buttons/viewpost.gif
Here goes. I can remember waiting in the car on election day 1960 as my parents went in to vote for Kennedy. Then this great man, who had a vision for this country, was gone in an obscene slaughter.

We had a nun in school who thought Kennedy was great. Then he was killed. At this time, we had an influx of Cuban kids into our school, in West New York, NJ. Every once in awhile, the nun would look at a Cuban kid and say, "Why don't you go back to where you came from?" We kids didn't understand what was going on. She picked on this tall, chubby Cuban kid, God knows why. There were 44 kids in the class. This kid had to go to the closet in back of the room and take out half the coats. If he dropped a coat, he had to put his own coat near the doorway and we were all instructed to "Walk on his coat." So we'd be pulling the coats from his arms and invariably we used his coat as a doormat. It all seemed funny.

After those 4 days in November 1963, my family didn't talk about it. We never talked about it. But it was always there.

Lenny Bruce and Mark Lane began to criticize the Warren Commission. This eventually trickled down to me. There was another killer on the grassy knoll. I began to see photos of Lee Harvey Oswald in Life mag. The "backyard" photos looked just what they were: one man's head stuck on another man's body. I noticed Oswald looked different in some pictures. The man who was shot by Ruby, had a flat head in profile -- weird. But I saw other pictures that really didn't look like him.

This was the beginning of my belief in conspiracy.

What would satisfy me in connection with President Kennedy? If George Herbert Walker Bush was arrested and convicted of involvement in Kennedy's death. If George W. Bush was arrested and convicted in the killing of so many people on 9/11 and bringing about this illegal war with Iraq. Wasn't it a strange coincidence that Bush was visiting England the day the British subway was bombed?

The only thing I can do about it is to educate people, get them thinking. I'm not going to walk around in a circle with a cardboard sign. And I'm not half as knowledgable as Rich DellaRosa of jfkresearch.com. He would put Gravy in his place in no time.

I hope that answers your questions.

kc440
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/oswald.htm#photos
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/photos.txt
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/experts.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/groden1.htm

Belief, but no evidence required, eh? Sounds like a prerequisite to become a CT.

As I said, don't believe mcadams. Every photo and film confiscated in Dealey Plaza was tampered with.

[kc440_]

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

It's typical CT thinking: if the photographs don't match the theory, well then the photos must have been tampered with!

Wait and see. In a few years the 9/11 CTers will be claiming the thousands of photos taken on 9/11 and it's aftermath were ALL tampered with by the conspirators. We're already seeing this mentality with the TVfakery gang.

As for the contention that George H.W. Bush was behind the JFK assassation, well that comes straight from Alex Jones bizarroland. Know what their "evidence" is? George and Barbara can't remember what they were doing upon hearing of JFK's assassination! Too bad Johnny Cochran is dead cause the Bushs could sure use him.

There's a photo of a young Bush in front of the Texas School Book Depository. There is also an FBI report that has Bush calling the police (?) and telling them about a man who uttered a threat against Kennedy (not Oswald). This is after Kennedy died.

kc440

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by kc440_

There's a photo of a young Bush in front of the Texas School Book Depository. There is also an FBI report that has Bush calling the police (?) and telling them about a man who uttered a threat against Kennedy (not Oswald). This is after Kennedy died.

Could you please provide us with this photo of George H.W. Bush in front of the Book Depository. Could you also provide us with this FBI report.