Atheist vs. Theist comfort

T'ai Chi · 25th November 2006, 11:37 AM

We often hear, as an attack on both, the issue of 'comfort' being discussed in regards to atheism and theism.

There are many variations, but most of the strawmans I hear go something like this:

Atheist strawman: a theist likes the comfort of knowing that he'll live forever

Theist strawman: an atheist likes the comfort of knowing that he has no responsibilities

However, when I talk to atheists and theists, it seems the real situation is a little different. I hear that:

A theist understands that for the universe to have a definite beginning it may imply it has a definite end. At the very least knowing that you are a creation implies that you can be uncreated. This is not too comforting, as people do love living life even if there happens to be an afterlife.

An atheist believes that it is impossible for something to come from nothing, and that matter/energy cannot be created nor destroyed. From both of these things, they are forced to believe the universe is enternal. This type of eternal existance can be said to give the atheist comfort.

Of course, I don't think the comfort-arguments are good at all. But people use them all the time to hint that if it comforts you, you like it because of the comfort and not because of what is providing the comfort. Like if your bed is comfortable, you just like the comfort it provides and you don't really care about the bed itself.

zizzybaluba · 25th November 2006, 11:54 AM

You know what provides me comfort?
my kitties.

Darat · 25th November 2006, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

...snip...

A theist understands that for the universe to have a definite beginning it may imply it has a definite end. At the very least knowing that you are a creation implies that you can be uncreated. This is not too comforting, as people do love living life even if there happens to be an afterlife.

...snip...

What type of theist makes this argument? Most theists in the world ie. a third of the world's population beleive there is no end and that they themselves will become eternal.

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

An atheist believes

...snip...

You are using the wrong word. An atheist is someone who has no belief in a god or gods.

thomps1d · 25th November 2006, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

An atheist believes that it is impossible for something to come from nothing, and that matter/energy cannot be created nor destroyed. From both of these things, they are forced to believe the universe is enternal. This type of eternal existance can be said to give the atheist comfort.

You keep using this word, atheist...I do not think it means what you think it means.

Darat · 25th November 2006, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by thomps1d

You keep using this word, atheist...I do not think it means what you think it means.

I've looked in every dictionary I have and also online dictionaries and I can't find one that mentions atheists beleive "it is impossible for something to come from nothing" or "matter/energy cannot be created nor destroyed."

E.g. atheist^dict

CFLarsen · 25th November 2006, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

when I talk to atheists and theists, it seems the real situation is a little different.

Unverifiable anecdote.

T'ai Chi · 25th November 2006, 12:40 PM

An atheist can surely believe. They are people afterall.

They don't belive in god(s) creating the universe, so in their worldview the universe has always existed.

Darat · 25th November 2006, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

An atheist can surely believe. They are people afterall.

They don't belive in god(s) creating the universe, so in their worldview the universe has always existed.

Your reasoning is illogical.

ImaginalDisc · 25th November 2006, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

An atheist believes that it is impossible for something to come from nothing, and that matter/energy cannot be created nor destroyed. From both of these things, they are forced to believe the universe is enternal. This type of eternal existance can be said to give the atheist comfort.

An atheist need not believe the universe is eternal. In fact, astrophysicists aren't sure which of the many theorized possible endings to the universe are the most likely. You're conflating atheists with a particular subset of people who've embraced certain theories.

CFLarsen · 25th November 2006, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

An atheist can surely believe. They are people afterall.

They don't belive in god(s) creating the universe, so in their worldview the universe has always existed.

Only if they support the Steady-State Model.

Which, of course, empirical evidence has shown to be substantially false, to the point where only

Quote:

a very small number of supporters remain.

I have yet to meet an atheist who supports the Steady State Model.

Darth Rotor · 25th November 2006, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

You're conflating atheists with a particular subset of people who've embraced certain theories.

Well said, which is sort of like any number of posters here who conflate Christian with "fundy moron Christian loudmouth," which is a particular subset . . .

DR

T'ai Chi · 25th November 2006, 01:23 PM

1) Atheists don't believe in god(s) creating the universe.

2) Science, which some atheists tend to believe, tells us that no matter or energy can be created (or destroyed).

So putting 1) and 2) together, atheists believe that the universe was definitely not created.

The universe being here is a fact. So since they believe it is not created, that is the same as saying they believe it has always existed.

Anyone claiming the reasoning is illogical should be able to point out directly where.

CFLarsen · 25th November 2006, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

1) Atheists don't believe in god(s) creating the universe.

2) Science, which some atheists tend to believe,

Which atheists do not "believe" in science??

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

tells us that no matter or energy can be created (or destroyed).

Hmmm....that's the natural laws. The natural laws that are indisputable. You show me any other natural law, and I'll be inclined to accept that it is up for negotiation.

But not the laws of thermodynamics. If they fail, all else fails.

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

So putting 1) and 2) together, atheists believe that the universe was definitely not created.

Not by a supernatural entity, no. Why should atheists believe that?

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

The universe being here is a fact. So since they believe it is not created, that is the same as saying they believe it has always existed.

Rubbish. That is the Young-Earth Creationist in you speaking. Such ignorance...

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

Anyone claiming the reasoning is illogical should be able to point out directly where.

It is not up to other people to prove you wrong. It is up to you to prove yourself right.

Dr Adequate · 25th November 2006, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

An atheist believes that it is impossible for something to come from nothing, and that matter/energy cannot be created nor destroyed. From both of these things, they are forced to believe the universe is enternal. This type of eternal existance can be said to give the atheist comfort.

If you crossed out "the atheist" and stuck in "Neitzsche" that would be about right.

And indeed, if I believed what Neitzsche believed about cosmology, that would be a comfort to me.

But speaking as "the atheist", I think his cosmology was wrong, so it brings me no comfort as such. Matter will continue to exist, but one day life will not. This is a bit of a downer, and I'd prefer you not to bring the subject up. But thus, it seems, it is.

rustypouch · 25th November 2006, 06:21 PM

Speaking of comfort... a botle of eighteen year old Highland Park would do for me about now...

ImaginalDisc · 25th November 2006, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

1) Atheists don't believe in god(s) creating the universe.

2) Science, which some atheists tend to believe, tells us that no matter or energy can be created (or destroyed).

So putting 1) and 2) together, atheists believe that the universe was definitely not created.

You're such an idiot.

Only a subset of atheists believe the things you've attributed to them. You can't even compose a logically valid argument.

Cosmo · 25th November 2006, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by rustypouch

Speaking of comfort... a botle of eighteen year old Highland Park would do for me about now...

Either that, or a bottle of one of the staples of college life:

wollery · 25th November 2006, 08:38 PM

thaiboxerken · 25th November 2006, 08:52 PM

T'ai Chi still doesn't get it. Then again, it takes a thinking brain to actually learn.

All it takes to be atheist is a lack of belief in a god.

So, an atheist can believe in creation... just not by a god.
An atheist can believe that the world is "matrix" like.
An atheist can believe that pixies created the universe.
An atheist can believe that the universe is just a figment of his imagination.
An atheist can believe that the universe was just berthed from his anus.
An atheist can or can not accept that the big bang actually did happen.
An atheist can or can not accept the fact the evolution is a factual occurrence.

Do you get it now, T'ai Chi?

CFLarsen · 25th November 2006, 11:59 PM

Don't be too hard on T'ai Chi.

We can't expect a Young-Earth Creationist to understand even the simplest concept.

Mercutio · 26th November 2006, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

However, when I talk to atheists and theists, it seems the real situation is a little different. I hear that:

Do you include the "talks" you have had with atheists here? If so, could you point out some examples? If not, why do you exclude them?

Dancing David · 26th November 2006, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

We often hear, as an attack on both, the issue of 'comfort' being discussed in regards to atheism and theism.

There are many variations, but most of the strawmans I hear go something like this:

Atheist strawman: a theist likes the comfort of knowing that he'll live forever

Theist strawman: an atheist likes the comfort of knowing that he has no responsibilities

However, when I talk to atheists and theists, it seems the real situation is a little different. I hear that:

A theist understands that for the universe to have a definite beginning it may imply it has a definite end. At the very least knowing that you are a creation implies that you can be uncreated. This is not too comforting, as people do love living life even if there happens to be an afterlife.

An atheist believes that it is impossible for something to come from nothing, and that matter/energy cannot be created nor destroyed. From both of these things, they are forced to believe the universe is enternal. This type of eternal existance can be said to give the atheist comfort.

this is wierd you seem to have confused atheism with materialism here. An atheist could believe in a created universe, just not in god.

I like the fact that I can't know if the universe is eternal or not, We Just Can't Know at this time. I think that it great.

I am a materialst and I do not assume the universe is eternal, the observed fact that energy and matter can not be destroyed does not mean that our pocket of space time is eternal.

Quote:

Of course, I don't think the comfort-arguments are good at all. But people use them all the time to hint that if it comforts you, you like it because of the comfort and not because of what is providing the comfort. Like if your bed is comfortable, you just like the comfort it provides and you don't really care about the bed itself.

I find comfort in the fact that from the non-theist viewpoint I don't have to worry about evil or why I was raped when i was six. If there is some grand scheme then things devolve to a state of spiritual narcissism. It better I feel to not think that the universe has it out for me everythime something negative happens.

I certainly don't find comfort in other's beliefs, if they wish to apply a different standard, that is cool. As long as they admit it is a human concept.

Loss Leader · 26th November 2006, 10:56 AM

You know, strawmen and unwarranted assumptions and all, this is the closest T'ai Chi has ever come to saying something I agree with.

That statement, roughly, is: Most people generally discount the thought processes of those with whom they do not agree.

thaiboxerken · 26th November 2006, 10:59 AM

I don't agree, Loss Leader. I think T'ai is simply assigning a straw man to atheists and atheism and then attacking that straw man.

Last of the Fraggles · 26th November 2006, 11:08 AM

An atheist says 'what is is'

A theist says 'what is is because someone wanted it that way, and if im really good and try really hard i can change it if i can just convince them'

I really don't know which is more comforting to any individual, but i have good grasp on which of them represents reality more fully.

thaiboxerken · 26th November 2006, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles

An atheist says 'what is is'

That would describe a skeptic, not an atheist. An atheist is someone that simply doesn't believe in any gods. Someday, people will understand this and stop misrepresenting atheists as materialists, smart, stupid, silly, funny, serious, angry or anything else other than "a person that doesn't believe in any gods."

Last of the Fraggles · 26th November 2006, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

That would describe a skeptic, not an atheist.

How so?

thaiboxerken · 26th November 2006, 11:21 AM

Look up the definition of atheist in any dictionary. It doesn't mention "what is is" in any of those definitions.

An atheist is someone that doesn't believe in any gods.

Non-belief in a god is the only defining characteristic to be an atheist.

Atheists can believe in ESP, the paranormal, pixies, elves, homeopathy and any other nonsense.

Loss Leader · 26th November 2006, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

I don't agree, Loss Leader. I think T'ai is simply assigning a straw man to atheists and atheism and then attacking that straw man.

Oh, I'm not saying I agree with his thesis. I'm just saying that burried in everything else, he seems to have accidentally stumbled upon some one thing that I think is generally true.

Last of the Fraggles · 26th November 2006, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Look up the definition of atheist in any dictionary. It doesn't mention "what is is" in any of those definitions.

An atheist is someone that doesn't believe in any gods.

Non-belief in a god is the only defining characteristic to be an atheist.

Atheists can believe in ESP, the paranormal, pixies, elves, homeopathy and any other nonsense.

And if what is isn't who is making it that way?

I didn't say atheists only believe in that which can be factually proven to exist, I said they beieve what is is. To an atheist who believes in ESP, ESP is. They have seen, heard or know of its existence. They don't believe God makes it happen sometimes if he wants to. They believe it to be a fact.

They can't ask someone to change it. That was what I was getting at. To a theist everything is fungible since it can be changed at any time by the will of God.

Last of the Fraggles · 26th November 2006, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Loss Leader

That statement, roughly, is: Most people generally discount the thought processes of those with whom they do not agree.

Interesting point. Living in China has given me a crash course in trying to work out what the hell people who have 0 cultural similarity to me are getting at and its really tough.

I can follow an argument from someone here and agree with every logical step and then suddenly the conclusion blind-sides me and I just get a huge WTF feeling.

When I'm dealing with different political beliefs I can also do the same thing to some degree, or at least understand where the differences lie.

However when I see religious arguments I have a totally different feeling I just find myself saying No, No, No, No, No thats not true, all the way through. I don't discount them because they are different I just can't even understand where they would get such nonsense from.

Squishua · 26th November 2006, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles

I didn't say atheists only believe in that which can be factually proven to exist, I said they beieve what is is. To an atheist who believes in ESP, ESP is. They have seen, heard or know of its existence. They don't believe God makes it happen sometimes if he wants to. They believe it to be a fact.

They can't ask someone to change it. That was what I was getting at.

You're still going beyond the definition of atheist.

The label does not encompass all that you think it does.

-Squish

Last of the Fraggles · 26th November 2006, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Squishua

You're still going beyond the definition of atheist.

The label does not encompass all that you think it does.

-Squish

Again, how so?

thaiboxerken · 26th November 2006, 03:15 PM

Because the label only applies to if a person believes in a god or not. An atheist can have hopeful dreams of a god-like being that could change things the way a god could. Raelians, for example, are atheists.

Quote:

I said they beieve what is is. To an atheist who believes in ESP, ESP is

This is a nonsense statement and can apply equally to theist. To a theist, their god is.

Last of the Fraggles · 26th November 2006, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Because the label only applies to if a person believes in a god or not. An atheist can have hopeful dreams of a god-like being that could change things the way a god could. Raelians, for example, are atheists.

This is a nonsense statement and can apply equally to theist. To a theist, their god is.

Yes they could. The fact they invoke a God though would distinguish it from any atheist comfort and would therefore be irrelevant to a discussion of that.

I've never met a Raelian nor do I wish to, however if you accurately paint their position as being 'I don't believe in God but I believe in a God-like being who performs all the duties of a God but isn't God - so I'm an atheist' then I'm calling BS on that.

Squishua · 26th November 2006, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles

Again, how so?

An atheist believes there is no God. Period.

An atheist can still be someone who believes in any number of whacky far-out things like goblins, leprechauns, monsters, ghosts and all manner of unseen entities and phenomena - just no God.

-Squish

thaiboxerken · 26th November 2006, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles

I've never met a Raelian nor do I wish to, however if you accurately paint their position as being 'I don't believe in God but I believe in a God-like being who performs all the duties of a God but isn't God - so I'm an atheist' then I'm calling BS on that.

You can call BS on it all you want. However, the Raelians think that what people of all religions call "god" is just a superior alien race. Thus, it's not really a god, and they really are atheist. They really have a stupid belief, but it's still one that doesn't invoke a god.

Will you get it through your thick skull that atheist only means a person that doesn't believe in a god?

Last of the Fraggles · 26th November 2006, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Squishua

An atheist believes there is no God. Period.

An atheist can still be someone who believes in any number of whacky far-out things like goblins, leprechauns, monsters, ghosts and all manner of unseen entities and phenomena - just no God.

-Squish

Yes great. So how does that disagree with what I wrote.

thaiboxerken · 26th November 2006, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles

Yes great. So how does that disagree with what I wrote.

Because you've assigned other traits to that definition which changes the definition to something more than atheist.

Last of the Fraggles · 26th November 2006, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

You can call BS on it all you want. However, the Raelians think that what people of all religions call "god" is just a superior alien race. Thus, it's not really a god, and they really are atheist. They really have a stupid belief, but it's still one that doesn't invoke a god.

Will you get it through your thick skull that atheist only means a person that doesn't believe in a god?

I don't disagree with your definition of atheist. Don't think I ever did, so you are arguing with yourself.

What I was characterising was 'atheist comfort' vs 'theist comfort' which was the point of this thread originally - i believe there is a fundamental difference there in that theists can appeal to a God who can change what 'is' at any time, atheists can't.

Why you got so uppity about dictionary definitions of atheism and what it does and doesn't mean is beyond me.

25th November 2006, 11:37 AM	#1
T'ai Chi Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 11,235	Atheist vs. Theist comfort We often hear, as an attack on both, the issue of 'comfort' being discussed in regards to atheism and theism. There are many variations, but most of the strawmans I hear go something like this: Atheist strawman: a theist likes the comfort of knowing that he'll live forever Theist strawman: an atheist likes the comfort of knowing that he has no responsibilities However, when I talk to atheists and theists, it seems the real situation is a little different. I hear that: A theist understands that for the universe to have a definite beginning it may imply it has a definite end. At the very least knowing that you are a creation implies that you can be uncreated. This is not too comforting, as people do love living life even if there happens to be an afterlife. An atheist believes that it is impossible for something to come from nothing, and that matter/energy cannot be created nor destroyed. From both of these things, they are forced to believe the universe is enternal. This type of eternal existance can be said to give the atheist comfort. Of course, I don't think the comfort-arguments are good at all. But people use them all the time to hint that if it comforts you, you like it because of the comfort and not because of what is providing the comfort. Like if your bed is comfortable, you just like the comfort it provides and you don't really care about the bed itself.
	__________________ http://www.statisticool.com

25th November 2006, 11:54 AM	#2
zizzybaluba sultan of zip Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: glen burnie, md, usa Posts: 383	You know what provides me comfort? my kitties.
	__________________ Have a zippy day!

25th November 2006, 11:55 AM	#3
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,754	Originally Posted by T'ai Chi ...snip... A theist understands that for the universe to have a definite beginning it may imply it has a definite end. At the very least knowing that you are a creation implies that you can be uncreated. This is not too comforting, as people do love living life even if there happens to be an afterlife. ...snip... What type of theist makes this argument? Most theists in the world ie. a third of the world's population beleive there is no end and that they themselves will become eternal. Originally Posted by T'ai Chi An atheist believes ...snip... You are using the wrong word. An atheist is someone who has no belief in a god or gods.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

25th November 2006, 12:02 PM	#5
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,754	Originally Posted by thomps1d You keep using this word, atheist...I do not think it means what you think it means. I've looked in every dictionary I have and also online dictionaries and I can't find one that mentions atheists beleive "it is impossible for something to come from nothing" or "matter/energy cannot be created nor destroyed." E.g. atheist^dict
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

25th November 2006, 12:04 PM	#6
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Originally Posted by T'ai Chi when I talk to atheists and theists, it seems the real situation is a little different. Unverifiable anecdote.
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

25th November 2006, 11:59 AM	#4
thomps1d Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Regina, SK, Canada Posts: 193	Originally Posted by T'ai Chi An atheist believes that it is impossible for something to come from nothing, and that matter/energy cannot be created nor destroyed. From both of these things, they are forced to believe the universe is enternal. This type of eternal existance can be said to give the atheist comfort. You keep using this word, atheist...I do not think it means what you think it means.

25th November 2006, 12:40 PM	#7
T'ai Chi Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 11,235	An atheist can surely believe. They are people afterall. They don't belive in god(s) creating the universe, so in their worldview the universe has always existed.
	__________________ http://www.statisticool.com

25th November 2006, 12:42 PM	#8
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,754	Originally Posted by T'ai Chi An atheist can surely believe. They are people afterall. They don't belive in god(s) creating the universe, so in their worldview the universe has always existed. Your reasoning is illogical.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

25th November 2006, 12:44 PM	#9
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by T'ai Chi An atheist believes that it is impossible for something to come from nothing, and that matter/energy cannot be created nor destroyed. From both of these things, they are forced to believe the universe is enternal. This type of eternal existance can be said to give the atheist comfort. An atheist need not believe the universe is eternal. In fact, astrophysicists aren't sure which of the many theorized possible endings to the universe are the most likely. You're conflating atheists with a particular subset of people who've embraced certain theories.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

25th November 2006, 12:47 PM	#10
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Originally Posted by T'ai Chi An atheist can surely believe. They are people afterall. They don't belive in god(s) creating the universe, so in their worldview the universe has always existed. Only if they support the Steady-State Model. Which, of course, empirical evidence has shown to be substantially false, to the point where only Quote: a very small number of supporters remain. I have yet to meet an atheist who supports the Steady State Model.
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25th November 2006, 01:13 PM	#11
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,255	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc You're conflating atheists with a particular subset of people who've embraced certain theories. Well said, which is sort of like any number of posters here who conflate Christian with "fundy moron Christian loudmouth," which is a particular subset . . . DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

25th November 2006, 01:23 PM	#12
T'ai Chi Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 11,235	1) Atheists don't believe in god(s) creating the universe. 2) Science, which some atheists tend to believe, tells us that no matter or energy can be created (or destroyed). So putting 1) and 2) together, atheists believe that the universe was definitely not created. The universe being here is a fact. So since they believe it is not created, that is the same as saying they believe it has always existed. Anyone claiming the reasoning is illogical should be able to point out directly where.
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25th November 2006, 01:41 PM	#13
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Originally Posted by T'ai Chi 1) Atheists don't believe in god(s) creating the universe. 2) Science, which some atheists tend to believe, Which atheists do not "believe" in science?? Originally Posted by T'ai Chi tells us that no matter or energy can be created (or destroyed). Hmmm....that's the natural laws. The natural laws that are indisputable. You show me any other natural law, and I'll be inclined to accept that it is up for negotiation. But not the laws of thermodynamics. If they fail, all else fails. Originally Posted by T'ai Chi So putting 1) and 2) together, atheists believe that the universe was definitely not created. Not by a supernatural entity, no. Why should atheists believe that? Originally Posted by T'ai Chi The universe being here is a fact. So since they believe it is not created, that is the same as saying they believe it has always existed. Rubbish. That is the Young-Earth Creationist in you speaking. Such ignorance... Originally Posted by T'ai Chi Anyone claiming the reasoning is illogical should be able to point out directly where. It is not up to other people to prove you wrong. It is up to you to prove yourself right.
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25th November 2006, 02:47 PM	#14
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Waiting Long Enough By The River Posts: 17,897	Originally Posted by T'ai Chi An atheist believes that it is impossible for something to come from nothing, and that matter/energy cannot be created nor destroyed. From both of these things, they are forced to believe the universe is enternal. This type of eternal existance can be said to give the atheist comfort. If you crossed out "the atheist" and stuck in "Neitzsche" that would be about right. And indeed, if I believed what Neitzsche believed about cosmology, that would be a comfort to me. But speaking as "the atheist", I think his cosmology was wrong, so it brings me no comfort as such. Matter will continue to exist, but one day life will not. This is a bit of a downer, and I'd prefer you not to bring the subject up. But thus, it seems, it is.

25th November 2006, 06:21 PM	#15
rustypouch Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Belfort Posts: 5,122	Speaking of comfort... a botle of eighteen year old Highland Park would do for me about now...

25th November 2006, 07:08 PM	#16
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by T'ai Chi 1) Atheists don't believe in god(s) creating the universe. 2) Science, which some atheists tend to believe, tells us that no matter or energy can be created (or destroyed). So putting 1) and 2) together, atheists believe that the universe was definitely not created. You're such an idiot. Only a subset of atheists believe the things you've attributed to them. You can't even compose a logically valid argument.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

25th November 2006, 07:09 PM	#17
Cosmo Radioactive Rationalist Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 1,169	Originally Posted by rustypouch Speaking of comfort... a botle of eighteen year old Highland Park would do for me about now... Either that, or a bottle of one of the staples of college life:

25th November 2006, 08:38 PM	#18
wollery Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs! TLA Winner Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Land of Eternal Hope Posts: 10,312
	__________________ "You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin

25th November 2006, 08:52 PM	#19
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,955	T'ai Chi still doesn't get it. Then again, it takes a thinking brain to actually learn. All it takes to be atheist is a lack of belief in a god. So, an atheist can believe in creation... just not by a god. An atheist can believe that the world is "matrix" like. An atheist can believe that pixies created the universe. An atheist can believe that the universe is just a figment of his imagination. An atheist can believe that the universe was just berthed from his anus. An atheist can or can not accept that the big bang actually did happen. An atheist can or can not accept the fact the evolution is a factual occurrence. Do you get it now, T'ai Chi?
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

25th November 2006, 11:59 PM	#20
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Don't be too hard on T'ai Chi. We can't expect a Young-Earth Creationist to understand even the simplest concept.
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

26th November 2006, 09:03 AM	#21
Mercutio Shakespeare's Sock Puppet Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Live Free Or Die Posts: 16,325	Originally Posted by T'ai Chi However, when I talk to atheists and theists, it seems the real situation is a little different. I hear that: Do you include the "talks" you have had with atheists here? If so, could you point out some examples? If not, why do you exclude them?
	__________________ "But to see her was to love her Love but her, and love forever."

26th November 2006, 09:46 AM	#22
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,702	Originally Posted by T'ai Chi We often hear, as an attack on both, the issue of 'comfort' being discussed in regards to atheism and theism. There are many variations, but most of the strawmans I hear go something like this: Atheist strawman: a theist likes the comfort of knowing that he'll live forever Theist strawman: an atheist likes the comfort of knowing that he has no responsibilities However, when I talk to atheists and theists, it seems the real situation is a little different. I hear that: A theist understands that for the universe to have a definite beginning it may imply it has a definite end. At the very least knowing that you are a creation implies that you can be uncreated. This is not too comforting, as people do love living life even if there happens to be an afterlife. An atheist believes that it is impossible for something to come from nothing, and that matter/energy cannot be created nor destroyed. From both of these things, they are forced to believe the universe is enternal. This type of eternal existance can be said to give the atheist comfort. this is wierd you seem to have confused atheism with materialism here. An atheist could believe in a created universe, just not in god. I like the fact that I can't know if the universe is eternal or not, We Just Can't Know at this time. I think that it great. I am a materialst and I do not assume the universe is eternal, the observed fact that energy and matter can not be destroyed does not mean that our pocket of space time is eternal. Quote: Of course, I don't think the comfort-arguments are good at all. But people use them all the time to hint that if it comforts you, you like it because of the comfort and not because of what is providing the comfort. Like if your bed is comfortable, you just like the comfort it provides and you don't really care about the bed itself. I find comfort in the fact that from the non-theist viewpoint I don't have to worry about evil or why I was raped when i was six. If there is some grand scheme then things devolve to a state of spiritual narcissism. It better I feel to not think that the universe has it out for me everythime something negative happens. I certainly don't find comfort in other's beliefs, if they wish to apply a different standard, that is cool. As long as they admit it is a human concept.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

26th November 2006, 10:56 AM	#23
Loss Leader Opinionated Jerk Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New York Posts: 11,885	You know, strawmen and unwarranted assumptions and all, this is the closest T'ai Chi has ever come to saying something I agree with. That statement, roughly, is: Most people generally discount the thought processes of those with whom they do not agree.
	__________________ Follow me on Twitter! @LossLeader This force is receiving all the right to vote through the use of magic. - Miernik Wieslaw <NEW> VOTE FOR ME JUST BECAUSE <NEW>

26th November 2006, 10:59 AM	#24
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,955	I don't agree, Loss Leader. I think T'ai is simply assigning a straw man to atheists and atheism and then attacking that straw man.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

26th November 2006, 11:08 AM	#25
Last of the Fraggles Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,355	An atheist says 'what is is' A theist says 'what is is because someone wanted it that way, and if im really good and try really hard i can change it if i can just convince them' I really don't know which is more comforting to any individual, but i have good grasp on which of them represents reality more fully.

26th November 2006, 11:12 AM	#26
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,955	Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles An atheist says 'what is is' That would describe a skeptic, not an atheist. An atheist is someone that simply doesn't believe in any gods. Someday, people will understand this and stop misrepresenting atheists as materialists, smart, stupid, silly, funny, serious, angry or anything else other than "a person that doesn't believe in any gods."
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

26th November 2006, 11:15 AM	#27
Last of the Fraggles Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,355	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken That would describe a skeptic, not an atheist. How so?

26th November 2006, 11:21 AM	#28
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,955	Look up the definition of atheist in any dictionary. It doesn't mention "what is is" in any of those definitions. An atheist is someone that doesn't believe in any gods. Non-belief in a god is the only defining characteristic to be an atheist. Atheists can believe in ESP, the paranormal, pixies, elves, homeopathy and any other nonsense.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

26th November 2006, 11:27 AM	#29
Loss Leader Opinionated Jerk Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New York Posts: 11,885	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken I don't agree, Loss Leader. I think T'ai is simply assigning a straw man to atheists and atheism and then attacking that straw man. Oh, I'm not saying I agree with his thesis. I'm just saying that burried in everything else, he seems to have accidentally stumbled upon some one thing that I think is generally true.
	__________________ Follow me on Twitter! @LossLeader This force is receiving all the right to vote through the use of magic. - Miernik Wieslaw <NEW> VOTE FOR ME JUST BECAUSE <NEW>

26th November 2006, 11:32 AM	#30
Last of the Fraggles Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,355	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken Look up the definition of atheist in any dictionary. It doesn't mention "what is is" in any of those definitions. An atheist is someone that doesn't believe in any gods. Non-belief in a god is the only defining characteristic to be an atheist. Atheists can believe in ESP, the paranormal, pixies, elves, homeopathy and any other nonsense. And if what is isn't who is making it that way? I didn't say atheists only believe in that which can be factually proven to exist, I said they beieve what is is. To an atheist who believes in ESP, ESP is. They have seen, heard or know of its existence. They don't believe God makes it happen sometimes if he wants to. They believe it to be a fact. They can't ask someone to change it. That was what I was getting at. To a theist everything is fungible since it can be changed at any time by the will of God.

26th November 2006, 11:38 AM	#31
Last of the Fraggles Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,355	Originally Posted by Loss Leader That statement, roughly, is: Most people generally discount the thought processes of those with whom they do not agree. Interesting point. Living in China has given me a crash course in trying to work out what the hell people who have 0 cultural similarity to me are getting at and its really tough. I can follow an argument from someone here and agree with every logical step and then suddenly the conclusion blind-sides me and I just get a huge WTF feeling. When I'm dealing with different political beliefs I can also do the same thing to some degree, or at least understand where the differences lie. However when I see religious arguments I have a totally different feeling I just find myself saying No, No, No, No, No thats not true, all the way through. I don't discount them because they are different I just can't even understand where they would get such nonsense from.

26th November 2006, 11:47 AM	#32
Squishua Thinker Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: California, USA Posts: 129	Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles I didn't say atheists only believe in that which can be factually proven to exist, I said they beieve what is is. To an atheist who believes in ESP, ESP is. They have seen, heard or know of its existence. They don't believe God makes it happen sometimes if he wants to. They believe it to be a fact. They can't ask someone to change it. That was what I was getting at. You're still going beyond the definition of atheist. The label does not encompass all that you think it does. -Squish

26th November 2006, 11:55 AM	#33
Last of the Fraggles Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,355	Originally Posted by Squishua You're still going beyond the definition of atheist. The label does not encompass all that you think it does. -Squish Again, how so?

26th November 2006, 03:15 PM	#34
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,955	Because the label only applies to if a person believes in a god or not. An atheist can have hopeful dreams of a god-like being that could change things the way a god could. Raelians, for example, are atheists. Quote: I said they beieve what is is. To an atheist who believes in ESP, ESP is This is a nonsense statement and can apply equally to theist. To a theist, their god is.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

26th November 2006, 06:39 PM	#35
Last of the Fraggles Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,355	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken Because the label only applies to if a person believes in a god or not. An atheist can have hopeful dreams of a god-like being that could change things the way a god could. Raelians, for example, are atheists. This is a nonsense statement and can apply equally to theist. To a theist, their god is. Yes they could. The fact they invoke a God though would distinguish it from any atheist comfort and would therefore be irrelevant to a discussion of that. I've never met a Raelian nor do I wish to, however if you accurately paint their position as being 'I don't believe in God but I believe in a God-like being who performs all the duties of a God but isn't God - so I'm an atheist' then I'm calling BS on that.