What is the Military Policy on "Loose Change"

[Sword_Of_Truth]

LC can't have anything but a negative effect on the morale on soldiers who lack the well developed *****-o-metres that most of us here have.


So what happenes to a serviceman caught handing out LC DVDs either at bases in the US or (God forbid) in the field?

Can this hypothetical serviceman be charged with anything under the UCMJ?

Best of all, how hysterical will the twoofers get if some grunt does get thrown in the brig for pushing twoofiness?

[Loss Leader]

I think that soldiers are not allowed to be politically active. However, they are allowed to hold any damn political or social opinion they want. My guess is that it would be unconstitutional to discipline a soldier under your hypothetical. An exception might exist on something like a ship at sea during a time of war. Commanders of Navy vessels traditionally have greatly expanded disciplinary powers.

[Cylinder]

That would mostly depend on rank. An officer could be charged under Article 88 of the UCMJ with Contempt Toward Officials:

Quote:

Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

Enlisted persons are not subject to Article 88. However, a commander could find that this activity to be to the prejudice of good order and discipline - which could carry charges under Article 134. More likely would be a personnel counseling session with an NCO, a trip to mental health and an order not to distribute any materials to other members without consent - or, if the commander prefers collective punishment, the same order could be issued for the entire unit. The latter can really hurt unit morale but encourages the member's peers to take care of the problem in their own way. If I were the NCO presented with this problem, I'd go with verbal counseling, mental health and an order to stop distributing the materials.

If the member was distributing this material in a forward area, I'd have a long talk with that member in the presence of my commander about Article 99 - Misbehavior Before the Enemy:

Quote:

Any person subject to this chapter who before or in the presence of the enemy--

(1) runs away;

(2) shamefully abandons, surrenders, or delivers up any command, unit, place, or military property which it is his duty to defend;

(3) through disobedience, neglect, or intentional misconduct endangers the safety of any such command, unit, place, or military property;

(4) casts away his arms or ammunition;

(5) is guilty of cowardly conduct;

(6) quits his place of duty to plunder or pillage;

(7) causes false alarms in any command, unit, or place under control of the armed forces;

(8) willfully fails to do his utmost to encounter, engage, capture, or destroy any enemy troops, combatants, vessels, aircraft, or any other thing, which it is his duty so to encounter, engage, capture, or destroy; or

(9) does not afford all practicable relief and assistance to any troops, combatants, vessels, or aircraft of the armed forces belonging to the United States or their allies when engaged in battle;

shall be punished by death or such punishment as a court- martial may direct.

It probably would be hard to get a charge under subs (3), (5), (7) and (9) but it would at least serve notice.

[Loss Leader]

Or you could listen to Cylinder and just ignore me because I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about and he just as clearly does.

[Cylinder]

Originally Posted by Loss Leader

I think that soldiers are not allowed to be politically active.

Off base and out-of-uniform they can be as active as they like with mainstream political causes.

Originally Posted by Loss Leader

However, they are allowed to hold any damn political or social opinion they want. My guess is that it would be unconstitutional to discipline a soldier under your hypothetical.

But there are real limits on communicating such beliefs, Even a cook in STRATCOM would get his jimmy in a jamb for distributing anti-nuclear propaganda on his or her base. Loose Change accuses the POTUS of mass murder. The courts have given very wide (and necessary) deference to the military in managing their own affairs.

[bonavada]

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

LC can't have anything but a negative effect on the morale on soldiers who lack the well developed bulls___-o-metres that most of us here have.

So what happenes to a serviceman caught handing out LC DVDs either at bases in the US or (God forbid) in the field?

Can this hypothetical serviceman be charged with anything under the UCMJ?

Best of all, how hysterical will the twoofers get if some grunt does get thrown in the brig for pushing twoofiness?

i think that might come under the all encapsulating blanket regulation called "undermining morale" well at least with british forces anyway.

BV

[JamesB]

I think you would have to do more than pass out DVDs to get charged with an article 88 violation, the criteria is to use "contemptous words" and is usually reserved for those who make public statements, like that Air Force Colonel in Monterey who wrote a letter to the editor accusing Bush of 9/11 foreknowledge. Alex Jones has now morphed this into "The dean of the Defense Language School [sic] has now said he trained one of the 9/11 hijacker".

I personally have never met any military troofers. I think most of too much common sense for that. Plus they know how the government works, and realize there is no way anyone could pull off a plot that ridiculously complicated.

[Doubt]

Originally Posted by Loss Leader

Or you could listen to Cylinder and just ignore me because I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about and he just as clearly does.

Yes, Cylinder pretty much covered all of it.

Generally speaking, your average service member understands that information related to the military from outside sources is often just plain wrong. Legitimate news reporters often understand nothing about the military. I am under the impression that this has improved a bit since the start of the Iraq war, however. The LC video is likely to be met with snickering by most of the troops, given that LC people don’t know their subject any better than your average reporter.

But like any group, there are those in the military who would believe just about anything. Anything that matches their preconceived bias that is. Usually those are the ones like to talk about how their recruiter lied to them. What typically happens is the recruiter just does not bother to correct preconceived BS already existing in the potential recruits head.

Troops with technical specialties are likely to spot the BS quickly when it covers their area of expertise. Troops in non-technical areas are more likely to buy into the lame ideas put forward by LC. However, the military is very top heavy on leaders. The presence of somebody passing around the LC video is likely to be picked up rather quickly. The most appropriate “punishment” for your average GI would be letting them deal with the inevitable ridicule from their peers, not a court martial. Ultimately, the troops are entitled to believe what they want. It is only their actions that would in need of a review.

[StoneWT]

You don't have to have formal punishment to deal with a sh*tbird. The NCO in charge of the serviceman can place him on bad details (picking up trash all day in hot summer weather), put the kid on every 20-mile hump the unit does, verbally berate him for the smallest error, keep him from enjoying the weekend with frequent battalion duty, and place him on duty in the middle of a 3 or 4-day holiday weekend. The NCO can also encourage the other troops to shun the loon.

[gumboot]

I think doubt might have it...

It's pretty much be impossible for the LC plot to be undertaken without involvement of the military. So any soldier who believed it is not going to impress their comrades.

They can probably deal with such silliness far more effectively than any formal proceedure.

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

I've had a few emails from officers in different branches of the US military thanking me for my LC guide. One of them recently registered here. They told similar stories: that impressionable guys under their command came to them and said, "You have to see this video!" The officers then did some research and dope-slapped them with facts.

Quote:

Dylan Avery: People who are in the military, and people whose lives depend on the military are not exactly going to be eager to accept this information, and I don't blame them if they aren't. I'm basically saying their bosses killed 3,000 people, I mean, that's hard for a lot of people to accept.

I think we have more people in the military and in positions of power who are on our side and aware of this information than aren't. Granted, they may not be out in public saying so, but I'd like to think if they watched our movie they'd say, 'Oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.' "

Quote:

Korey Rowe, who served as a private in the Army in Afghanistan and Iraq: Inside the military you can do things and not really realize what you're doing. The military is so large, and there's so many pieces moving at once, that on certain levels, people don't have any idea.

Radio host: In the movie JFK, Kevin Costner was asked, you know, how can you keep a conspiracy of this magnitude alive? And he said, "Orders."

Rowe: Absolutely. In the military you sign away your rights. I mean, if you break your arm, you get arrested for destruction of government property, and you get fined.

They honestly have you in whatever way they want you. They will twist the things, they will compile evidence, to support their story, no matter what. They own you the moment you sign that line.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

LC can't have anything but a negative effect on the morale on soldiers who lack the well developed bulls___-o-metres that most of us here have.

You presume that soldiers and sailors don't have well developed BS meters?

Where did you get that idea? My finely developed BS filter was massively influenced by experiences in the military.

DR

[uk_dave]

Korey Rowe = Karl Rove

Think about it.....

.....but not for too long.....

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

You presume that soldiers and sailors don't have well developed BS meters?

Where did you get that idea? My finely developed BS filter was massively influenced by experiences in the military.

DR

You were an officer weren't you?

-Gumboot

[Alt+F4]

I know eight young men, all former students, who are currently in Iraq or Afganistan (all are still safe, thank God, as far as I know). Seven of the eight signed up out of patriotism, the eight because he had to get away from his parents.

Anyway, a fairly new recruitment tool the military uses is to send soldiers on leave back to their old high schools with a recruiter. New soldier in nice uniform chats with old buddies...you get the picture. So, in the course of speaking with these boys (they're still just boys to me) all of them said they want to go back to Iraq. Why? Not because they feel the war is justified, but rather the fierce loyalty they have for their buddies still over there. A million showings of LC in Iraq couldn't change that.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

You presume that soldiers and sailors don't have well developed BS meters?

Where did you get that idea? My finely developed BS filter was massively influenced by experiences in the military.

DR

My apologies, Darth. I didn't intend to imply that there are alot of soldiers who are vulnerable to BS. My question was ~IF~ there was such a soldier who was engaged in such activity, how would the military respond.

EDIT: I should point out that it's the conspiraloons who hold the military in contempt, who accuse them of murdering, raping and robbing both thier own countrymen and foreign civillians. Either that or they believe the members of the military are too mentally deficient to "open thier eyes".

[stateofgrace]

Ok I can only speak from experience many years ago while in the British armed forces. This is probably all changed now though.

At the time I was serving in the forces illegal drugs of any kind were totally banned and punishable by court marshal and dismissal if anybody was caught taking them. OK that is fine but also any paraphernalia, books; t-shirts etc that promoted drugs were treated in the same way. They were totally banned and although I never actually heard of anybody being punished for having such articles, in the same token I never saw any, simply because they were banned.

As to whether the armed forces would take the same approach to dross like LC I really don’t know. I’m sure those around him/her would quickly jump anybody pushing it or sticking a LC DVD on in a mess hall upon.

As has been pointed out I’m sure many guys in the military are well aware of LC and simply pay no attention to it. It would be great I’m sure for the cters for a military guy to get drummed out for pushing this crap, but I can’t really see it happening any more than a guy getting courted marshalled for saying the earth is flat.

[JamesB]

Originally Posted by Gravy

I've had a few emails from officers in different branches of the US military thanking me for my LC guide. One of them recently registered here. They told similar stories: that impressionable guys under their command came to them and said, "You have to see this video!" The officers then did some research and dope-slapped them with facts.

Quote:

Rowe: Absolutely. In the military you sign away your rights. I mean, if you break your arm, you get arrested for destruction of government property, and you get fined.

That is essentially an urban legend they tell new recruits to scare them. I don't think SPC Rowe ever matured past that level.

[Bell]

Originally Posted by JamesB

That is essentially an urban legend they tell new recruits to scare them. I don't think SPC Rowe ever matured past that level.

Assuming Rowe even was with the 101st, instead of watching Band of Brothers one to may times.

[defaultdotxbe]

i think in the military you can have loose change as long as it doesnt jingle in your pocket when you march

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by JamesB

That is essentially an urban legend they tell new recruits to scare them. I don't think SPC Rowe ever matured past that level.

It's probably more an "in-joke" than anything else.

A similar one in the NZ Armed Forces goes something like this:

SOLDIER: Staff, I want leave next week for my wedding.
STAFF SGT: Nonsense! Permission denied!
SOLDIER: But Staff, my wife-
STAFF SGT: Wife? If the army wanted you to have a wife you'd be issued with one!

-Gumboot

[Doubt]

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

Anyway, a fairly new recruitment tool the military uses is to send soldiers on leave back to their old high schools with a recruiter. New soldier in nice uniform chats with old buddies...you get the picture.

That is not new. They were doing that well before I enlisted 25 years ago. (Damn! I am getting old.)

[Doubt]

Originally Posted by Gravy

I've had a few emails from officers in different branches of the US military thanking me for my LC guide. One of them recently registered here. They told similar stories: that impressionable guys under their command came to them and said, "You have to see this video!" The officers then did some research and dope-slapped them with facts.

From what I have read, Korey Rowe does not have much going for him within the military for credibility. One of the non 9/11 things I remember reading was that he claimed he was given shots in basic training that caused him to put on a good amount of muscle.

This would cause any medic who worked in a basic training center to laugh their @ss off. The shots you get at the start of basic are vaccinations. They fill out a shot record that stays with your medical records and is available to you when you are discharged.

My little yellow shot record has served me well since I was discharged. I have had to get some more vaccinations for over seas work assignments. I would have needed a lot more shots if I did not have my shot records.

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by Doubt

That is not new. They were doing that well before I enlisted 25 years ago. (Damn! I am getting old.)

Thanks for the info. When I first started teaching (mid 90s) there was no big U.S. war and thus, very few military recruiters in school. Now, thanks to "No Child Left Behind" public schools are required by law to provide the names and addresses of kids to military recruiters.

[Calcas]

Originally Posted by gumboot

It's probably more an "in-joke" than anything else.

A similar one in the NZ Armed Forces goes something like this:

SOLDIER: Staff, I want leave next week for my wedding.
STAFF SGT: Nonsense! Permission denied!
SOLDIER: But Staff, my wife-
STAFF SGT: Wife? If the army wanted you to have a wife you'd be issued with one!

-Gumboot

LOL.

I did Basic in 1974. And while it was "basic training lite" (Air Force at Lackland AFB) I still remember the same rhetoric.

"Full Metal Jacket" is still the definitive movie/portrayal of what it was like back then...

[Obviousman]

Originally Posted by StoneWT

You don't have to have formal punishment to deal with a sh*tbird. The NCO in charge of the serviceman can place him on bad details (picking up trash all day in hot summer weather), put the kid on every 20-mile hump the unit does, verbally berate him for the smallest error, keep him from enjoying the weekend with frequent battalion duty, and place him on duty in the middle of a 3 or 4-day holiday weekend. The NCO can also encourage the other troops to shun the loon.

In the RAN, that would be a pretty serious violation. Undesirable duty has to be shared around those eligible for it. Berating must be done in a form that would teach the person what he has done wrong, and how to do it correctly - and usually not involving a punishment.

Encouraging others to shun the person would certainly be a violation, and subject to prosecution not only under the DFDA but under the HREOC rules.

Sorry Stone, but that is NOT the way to do it.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I know the bumping of old, dead threads is taboo.

But with the possibility of Korey Rowe going to Iraq, that silly bugger might just give us a test case.

[AMTMAN]

Originally Posted by JamesB

I think you would have to do more than pass out DVDs to get charged with an article 88 violation, the criteria is to use "contemptous words" and is usually reserved for those who make public statements, like that Air Force Colonel in Monterey who wrote a letter to the editor accusing Bush of 9/11 foreknowledge. Alex Jones has now morphed this into "The dean of the Defense Language School [sic] has now said he trained one of the 9/11 hijacker".

I personally have never met any military troofers. I think most of too much common sense for that. Plus they know how the government works, and realize there is no way anyone could pull off a plot that ridiculously complicated.

BINGO!!!! Anyone who has been in the military gets a good laugh out of people like DRG who think that the miliatry/government is some sort of super efficent machine. Guess they think that since the US is preety much undefeated that's proof of efficenecy. Actually a lot of it has to do with the other side screwing up worse than us.

[AMTMAN]

Originally Posted by JamesB

That is essentially an urban legend they tell new recruits to scare them. I don't think SPC Rowe ever matured past that level.

If I had a dime for every time I heard the old "They can bust you for destruction of govt property if you get a)hurt b)get a tatoo c) get VD" line. Not once did I ever see anyone get busted for "destruction of govt property".

[JimBenArm]

Originally Posted by AMTMAN

If I had a dime for every time I heard the old "They can bust you for destruction of govt property if you get a)hurt b)get a tatoo c) get VD" line. Not once did I ever see anyone get busted for "destruction of govt property".

Yeah, about every third person I knew in the Navy would have been written up if that were true!

[Unsecured Coins]

my medical file is a good inch thick from all the boo boo's and whoopsies I've had over the years (blown knee, almost severed finger, numerous head contusions from smashing my noggin on the gun tube, the lightning strike) and here's the number of dollars the US Government has fined me for destruction of government property - $0.00

I also did not have to pay for the target generator on Red Cloud Range I shot during Table 8 or the cow I shot on Table 12.

[JamesB]

Not the livestock!

[Triterope]

Quote:

Edited by Miss Anthrope:

Rule 8 violation removed & replaced

Please note the new changes to rule 8. You may not mask profanity to subvert the auto sensor.

Posted By:Miss Anthrope

So the rule changes are retroactive, are they?

[leftysergeant]

I broke my arm in a bicycle accident on active duty. It was considered line of duty. The Army expected soldiers to take up a sport. Mine was bicycling. There was no misconduct on my part. Seven years later, that injury and a few knee injuries left me unable to run two miles or get my elbow under a weapon. Army considered it a life-threatening condition and told me to take my blue card and go home before I really got hurt. (Even the mess sergeant needs to be able to shoot back or run away, at the very least.)

Now, had I broken that arm in a bar fight, I would have gotten a bill for my medical treatment and no disability pay after separation.

Korey is a flake. PLEASE don't let that boy near a functioning weapon.

[Miss Anthrope]

Originally Posted by Triterope

So the rule changes are retroactive, are they?

Ooof, that is most definitely my bad for not checking the date. I'll leave the edit but remove the warning box.

[gumboot]

In regards to the OP, if you take the angle that LC is accusing various individuals of criminal activity, such as mass murder (and treason?), that in itself is illegal, and thus it would (obviously) be a violation for military personnel to do so as they, above all else, are still required to comply with the law.

-Gumboot

[Unsecured Coins]

Originally Posted by JamesB

Not the livestock!

in my defense it came up from the hill looking EXACTLY like a regular wooden target. Even my tank commander at the time thought it was the target.

[AMTMAN]

Originally Posted by JimBenArm

Yeah, about every third person I knew in the Navy would have been written up if that were true!

Tell me about it! I knew more than one guy who got his head split open because he wasn't wearing his cranial.

[AgeGap]

bonavada, British Armed Forces, Queens Regs 69-Be afraid, be very afraid.

[T.A.M.]

So if I say the word Shaite, will it be removed?

TAM