Galen 150 VS Encarta 1998

FireGarden · 7th February 2003, 11:17 AM

(Just thought I'd try and get my research checked by someone who knows more than I do)

I've checked the modern description of the development of the human embryo, and here's how I fit Galen's description into the modern:

Quote:

From Encart98 (My comments and Galen's stages in bold)

The implanted embryo consists of a hollow sphere, the blastocyst, containing a mass of cells, called the embryonic mass, attached by a stalk to one side of the encircling membrane. [Galen's First stage (hardly accurate, but this seems the best place to compare it to): "The first is that in which. as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the semen prevails. At this time, Hippocrates too, the all-marvelous, does not yet call the conformation of the animal a foetus; as we heard just now in the case of semen voided in the sixth day, he still calls it semen"] In a blastocyst less than two weeks old and measuring 1 mm (0.04 in) in diameter, the microscope reveals the amnion (a sac surrounding the embryo), chorion (a membrane that develops around the amnion and lines the uterine wall), yolk sac, and distinct germ layers.

In the third week a closed tube appears in which the brain and spinal cord are to develop. Another tube, folding on itself, is developing into the heart, [Galen's second stage (more accurate than his first, I think): "heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size"] and at about this stage a portion of the minute yolk sac is enclosed in the body of the embryo to form a part of the embryonic alimentary canal.

At the beginning of its fourth week the embryo, now about 4 to 5 mm (about 0.16 to 0.2 in) long, has the rudiments of eyes and ears, and each side of the neck shows four gill clefts. A tail is also present.

Early in the second month the buds of the arms and legs appear. The major internal organs begin to take shape, [Galen's third stage (Fits here quite well I suppose): "You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs"] and in about the sixth week bones and muscles begin to form.

By the third month the embryo is recognizable as that of a primate, and is now called a fetus. [Of course, Galen's 4th stage could be placed much later in the Encarta98 article: "The fourth and final period is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated; and at this part Hippocrates the marvelous no longer calls the foetus an embryo only, but already a child"]

OK, foetus and embryo do not seem to be similarly defined in the two versions. (Similarly, semen seems to have a less than modern meaning). And Galen does not tell us (in this extract anyway) where the first stage takes place. His first stage is also very poor in that it says very little about the beginnings other than that it is fluid. But I think that Galen did quite well in stages two or three. Especially if you consider the size of the embryo at these stages (and the possibility that most of his observations may have been of chickens not humans!)

I'm not entirely clear on when he says that flesh forms to cover the bones. (Or if it's even accurate to say that the bones form before the flesh) And my earlier interpretation of his "three parts" being the gastrula is probably giving him too much credit. What he meant by "parts" (and especially "ruling parts") I do not know. (Maybe the "ruling parts" are the three he named: heart, brain and liver?)

That's the problem with reading incomplete or imprecise texts. Interpretation is always required.

FireGarden · 8th February 2003, 12:59 AM

The Greeks spoke about a "semen masculinium" and a "semen feminium", I think Galen used the term "semen" until he could see some solid structure in the embryo. Of course, sperm only survives for ~48 hours in the female body. (And not all of them manage that long)

Comparing the Quranic version with the modern is difficult, due to the disagreement that scholars have over the exact meaning of the words.

Galen's first stage can be associated with the Quranic "Al-Nutfah", which means "a drop of fluid", or a "small part of fluid" - which is amazing since obviously this could mean a single sperm. Not only that! but when you have a mixed group of male and female, you would use male nouns/adjectives (just as in French). So Nutfah could mean a mixture of male and female fluids - in fact a mixture of a small amount of each, and so a mixture of egg and sperm. IE: al-Nutfah could mean "zygote"!!!

The Quranic second stage is "alaqa", which has a variety of meanings: "thing which clings", leech, clot of blood, even "the pully hanging over a well". Galen doesn't mention the umbilical cord in the extract I found, but Aristotle is supposed to have taken a guess to it's function, so it seems likely that the structure was known (I can't confirm that Aristotle knew about the umbilical cord). So that can account for "clinging". Saying that the embryo looks leech-like at this stage is alot less exact than saying that the heart and brain (Galen may have been wrong about the liver) are beginning to form.

Although the alaqa could be associated with Galen's third stage, I think it's more likely the second. That would leave Galen's third stage to be the Quranic "Mugdah", which means "morsel" or "morsel of flesh", which indicates that the embryo is still not fully formed. But then again, perhaps mugdah should be earlier in Galen's stages since by now Galen is describing many structures - some of them clear and some of them "dimly seen in outline".

Finally, Galen's fourth stage is "the fetus looks like a child". I could have guessed that one!!

Though there isn't a perfect match between any two of the three, given them all to chose between I would say that the Quranic version definitely has more in common with Galen's than with the modern. (And the Quranic version has less detail than Galen's. But then again it wasn't intended as a text-book - pop-science at most!)

Neither of the old texts mention even half the detail of the modern.

(Sorry if this should be in R and P)

Liamo · 8th February 2003, 09:17 AM

Good work, GP!

Have you used these arguments in your discussion yet?

Liam

FireGarden · 8th February 2003, 12:54 PM

Thanks, Liam!
I've used it, but I don't think I've convinced anybody yet.
They still think I'm too closed minded.

xouper · 11th February 2004, 11:26 AM

bump

7th February 2003, 11:17 AM	#1
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Galen 150 VS Encarta 1998 (Just thought I'd try and get my research checked by someone who knows more than I do) I've checked the modern description of the development of the human embryo, and here's how I fit Galen's description into the modern: Quote: From Encart98 (My comments and Galen's stages in bold) The implanted embryo consists of a hollow sphere, the blastocyst, containing a mass of cells, called the embryonic mass, attached by a stalk to one side of the encircling membrane. [Galen's First stage (hardly accurate, but this seems the best place to compare it to): "The first is that in which. as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the semen prevails. At this time, Hippocrates too, the all-marvelous, does not yet call the conformation of the animal a foetus; as we heard just now in the case of semen voided in the sixth day, he still calls it semen"] In a blastocyst less than two weeks old and measuring 1 mm (0.04 in) in diameter, the microscope reveals the amnion (a sac surrounding the embryo), chorion (a membrane that develops around the amnion and lines the uterine wall), yolk sac, and distinct germ layers. In the third week a closed tube appears in which the brain and spinal cord are to develop. Another tube, folding on itself, is developing into the heart, [Galen's second stage (more accurate than his first, I think): "heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size"] and at about this stage a portion of the minute yolk sac is enclosed in the body of the embryo to form a part of the embryonic alimentary canal. At the beginning of its fourth week the embryo, now about 4 to 5 mm (about 0.16 to 0.2 in) long, has the rudiments of eyes and ears, and each side of the neck shows four gill clefts. A tail is also present. Early in the second month the buds of the arms and legs appear. The major internal organs begin to take shape, [Galen's third stage (Fits here quite well I suppose): "You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs"] and in about the sixth week bones and muscles begin to form. By the third month the embryo is recognizable as that of a primate, and is now called a fetus. [Of course, Galen's 4th stage could be placed much later in the Encarta98 article: "The fourth and final period is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated; and at this part Hippocrates the marvelous no longer calls the foetus an embryo only, but already a child"] OK, foetus and embryo do not seem to be similarly defined in the two versions. (Similarly, semen seems to have a less than modern meaning). And Galen does not tell us (in this extract anyway) where the first stage takes place. His first stage is also very poor in that it says very little about the beginnings other than that it is fluid. But I think that Galen did quite well in stages two or three. Especially if you consider the size of the embryo at these stages (and the possibility that most of his observations may have been of chickens not humans!) I'm not entirely clear on when he says that flesh forms to cover the bones. (Or if it's even accurate to say that the bones form before the flesh) And my earlier interpretation of his "three parts" being the gastrula is probably giving him too much credit. What he meant by "parts" (and especially "ruling parts") I do not know. (Maybe the "ruling parts" are the three he named: heart, brain and liver?) That's the problem with reading incomplete or imprecise texts. Interpretation is always required.
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

8th February 2003, 12:59 AM	#2
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	The Greeks spoke about a "semen masculinium" and a "semen feminium", I think Galen used the term "semen" until he could see some solid structure in the embryo. Of course, sperm only survives for ~48 hours in the female body. (And not all of them manage that long) Comparing the Quranic version with the modern is difficult, due to the disagreement that scholars have over the exact meaning of the words. Galen's first stage can be associated with the Quranic "Al-Nutfah", which means "a drop of fluid", or a "small part of fluid" - which is amazing since obviously this could mean a single sperm. Not only that! but when you have a mixed group of male and female, you would use male nouns/adjectives (just as in French). So Nutfah could mean a mixture of male and female fluids - in fact a mixture of a small amount of each, and so a mixture of egg and sperm. IE: al-Nutfah could mean "zygote"!!! The Quranic second stage is "alaqa", which has a variety of meanings: "thing which clings", leech, clot of blood, even "the pully hanging over a well". Galen doesn't mention the umbilical cord in the extract I found, but Aristotle is supposed to have taken a guess to it's function, so it seems likely that the structure was known (I can't confirm that Aristotle knew about the umbilical cord). So that can account for "clinging". Saying that the embryo looks leech-like at this stage is alot less exact than saying that the heart and brain (Galen may have been wrong about the liver) are beginning to form. Although the alaqa could be associated with Galen's third stage, I think it's more likely the second. That would leave Galen's third stage to be the Quranic "Mugdah", which means "morsel" or "morsel of flesh", which indicates that the embryo is still not fully formed. But then again, perhaps mugdah should be earlier in Galen's stages since by now Galen is describing many structures - some of them clear and some of them "dimly seen in outline". Finally, Galen's fourth stage is "the fetus looks like a child". I could have guessed that one!! Though there isn't a perfect match between any two of the three, given them all to chose between I would say that the Quranic version definitely has more in common with Galen's than with the modern. (And the Quranic version has less detail than Galen's. But then again it wasn't intended as a text-book - pop-science at most!) Neither of the old texts mention even half the detail of the modern. (Sorry if this should be in R and P)
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

8th February 2003, 09:17 AM	#3
Liamo Occasional Poster Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 74	Good work, GP! Have you used these arguments in your discussion yet? Liam
Liamo Occasional Poster Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 74

8th February 2003, 12:54 PM	#4
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Thanks, Liam! I've used it, but I don't think I've convinced anybody yet. They still think I'm too closed minded.
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

11th February 2004, 11:26 AM	#5
xouper Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,189	bump
xouper Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,189