mistery

idunno · 3rd December 2006, 07:23 AM

hi sometimes i think there is a force or god out there.certain things are difficult to explain.For example why is man the only species that gets disfigured as it ages? Is there any evoidence as to why?

wollery · 3rd December 2006, 07:53 AM

Ever seen a picture of an old chimp?

idunno · 3rd December 2006, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by wollery

Ever seen a picture of an old chimp?

well but cats for example? Or birds?

Cosmo · 3rd December 2006, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by idunno

well but cats for example? Or birds?

Same for them. Every living thing becomes less effective in some way as it gets older.

Mashuna · 3rd December 2006, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by idunno

well but cats for example? Or birds?

Animals, when they get older, tend to be dead. No relaxing into retirement with a pension for them!

Timble · 3rd December 2006, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by idunno

well but cats for example? Or birds?

We had a budgerigar that lived for 15 years, a lot longer than it would have done in the wild, by the end of its life a lot of the colouring had gone from its feathers and they were definitely coming out in places. It had also stopped flying and just walked round.

I've seen very old and worn-looking cats, with limps, bald patches and rheumy eyes...

rachaella · 3rd December 2006, 08:42 AM

I had an old hamster with arthritis. His joints got all swollen. He lived over 3 years which is pretty ancient for a hamster and didn't move much in his last months, probably because it hurt. His fur was coming out and much less soft and silky. He definitely didn't look like he did when he was young, frisky, and would make escape attempts weekly. Couldn't even climb through his tubes or run on his wheel. Animals do get old. My vet has pamplets about caring for aging cats, rabbits and guinea pigs.

Mr Clingford · 3rd December 2006, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Mashuna

Animals, when they get older, tend to be dead. No relaxing into retirement with a pension for them!

Absolutely. The body slows down so you are slower and end up eaten or not able to find enough food to eat because others got there first and die.

Lisa Simpson · 3rd December 2006, 08:49 AM

Both cats and dogs I have owned have gotten gray around the muzzle (is it still called a muzzle on a cat?) as they aged. They get arthritis, kidney failure, heart problems etc. If they were wild animals they would have been eaten by something younger and stronger.

wollery · 3rd December 2006, 08:49 AM

Come to think of it we used to have a cat that lived to be 20. In his prime he was a beefy bruiser with a habit of climbing paw over paw up the leaded light windows in our living room. For the last six months of his life he had to be lifted onto the sofa!

Glen.Nogami · 3rd December 2006, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by idunno

hi sometimes i think there is a force or god out there.certain things are difficult to explain.For example why is man the only species that gets disfigured as it ages? Is there any evoidence as to why?

With all the examples above, I suppose I don't need to add my own experience.

Interesting article (old, too): http://www.boston.com/news/world/art...ause_of_aging/

It appears that that and probably other factors contribute to the aging process. As stated above, humans are not, in fact, the only species that ages, but other species typically die very early in the aging process, due to fiercer competition. Such a phenomenon is certainly not a reason to postulate a supernatural entity solely for explanation's sake.

[nitpick]Also, it's spelled "mystery"[/nitpick]

slingblade · 3rd December 2006, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by idunno

hi sometimes i think there is a force or god out there.certain things are difficult to explain.

Setting up a false dichotomy won't explain them, either. That a natural phenomenon isn't well understood yet isn't an indication that an invisible, omni-being must, therefore, exist.

Quote:

For example why is man the only species that gets disfigured as it ages? Is there any evoidence as to why?

The first bit of "evidence" lies in recognizing this as a false assertion. Animals do age. They lose their teeth, visual acuity, hearing, fur, muscle mass, bone density, and skin tone as they age, just as humans do. That you have yet to observe this means only that you have yet to observe it.

Let us, however, assume for a moment that this is true; that animals don't appear to age in the same way humans do. How would this isolated fact indicate a god?

The fact that humankind cannot yet explain everything in the cosmos is no indicator of a god. Is the fact that we can explain so much more today than we could even 100 years ago an indicator there is no god, as well?

Maybe the answer is as simple as recognizing there are many things you cannot yet explain, but that others can. Maybe it's that you don't know everything yet?

Maybe it's easier to create an imaginary being than to admit ignorance, or do the hard work of educating oneself?

Squishua · 3rd December 2006, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by idunno

why is man the only species that gets disfigured as it ages? Is there any evoidence as to why?

Have you considered that humans have invented medical technology, agriculture, climate-controlled housing, societies, etc, which enables them to live much, much longer than they would if still scurrying around nomadically in the wild?

And as far as us becoming "disfigured," I can only assume you mean wrinkled and severely old-looking. For that I ask that you consider how most other animals would look if they:
1. Lived more than 500% longer than they had adapted to live in the wild, and
2. Had no fur to protect their skin from sunlight that entire time.

Everything is a mystery if you don't think things through a bit.

-Squish

l0rca · 3rd December 2006, 10:23 AM

This guy has the same reasoning my mom has.

...Mommy?

RandFan · 3rd December 2006, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Mashuna

Animals, when they get older, tend to be dead. No relaxing into retirement with a pension for them!

Bingo.

blutoski · 3rd December 2006, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by idunno

well but cats for example? Or birds?

Yes, cats and birds have senescence. Dogs, too. They get arthritis, lipomas, bad hearts, have strokes, weak immune systems, cataracts, nearsightedness, cancer...

Are you sincerly unaware that all animals get creaky in their old age?

(there are a few exceptions: hydras do not have a senescence)

LawnOven · 3rd December 2006, 12:54 PM

One might also add, that...

It is not normal for people to live to be 75, unaided by modern medicine you are looking at something around 30-40 years, for people that make it into adolescence.

wahrheit · 3rd December 2006, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by idunno

For example why is man the only species that gets disfigured as it ages?

As opposed to plants, who always look youthful?

Elizabeth I · 3rd December 2006, 01:25 PM

The real mystery is why you spelled it "mistery." Were you going for "misery"?

Ausmerican · 3rd December 2006, 05:20 PM

It's a trade off. Animals mature faster than us and die earlier than us. We live unnaturally long lives due to technology. Animals also don't tend to smoke, drink alcohol and eat junk that is unnecessary for their survival. We are the only species that knowingly and willingly poisons itself in small doses throughout our lives. And for this we should look pretty?

blutoski · 3rd December 2006, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by LawnOven

One might also add, that...

It is not normal for people to live to be 75, unaided by modern medicine you are looking at something around 30-40 years, for people that make it into adolescence.

I'm not sure that this is true... from what we can tell, even in antiquity, if the person managed to avoid fatal illness and ate well, sixty to eighty was a realistic lifespan for men. The mean average lifespan of 30-40 is lower than the life expectancy of an adult, specifically because of the infant mortality problem.

I was just polishing off some Cicero, written when he was in his seventies. In his era, there was nothing that we would call 'modern' medicine, and if you got past that risky infancy, went to the gymnasium daily, ate properly... you could expect to live about that long. In his case, he would have lived probably into his eighties, but he had a big mouth and was executed. Also: even in this era, the Romans practiced infanticide, further skewing life expectancy statistics.

Going further back - who knows. But we do have remains of, say, Homo erectus, and they're a damn healthy bunch! The Turkana Boy was probably 14 years old, and almost 6 feet tall, perfect teeth, &c. But then again... he *is* a 14 year old corpse...

Mercutio · 3rd December 2006, 08:25 PM

Ernest Thompson Seton wrote a book that was a favorite of mine as a youngster-- Autobiography of a Grizzly. The later chapters, where he grows old and feeble, are so sad...

blutoski · 3rd December 2006, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by Ausmerican

It's a trade off. Animals mature faster than us and die earlier than us. We live unnaturally long lives due to technology. Animals also don't tend to smoke, drink alcohol and eat junk that is unnecessary for their survival. We are the only species that knowingly and willingly poisons itself in small doses throughout our lives. And for this we should look pretty?

One other thing that we do in spades is care for our fellows: one of the earliest signs of 'civilization' is a hominoid that has deformed bones (vitaminitisis A) and has clearly been cared for beyond her ability to ambulate.

Altruism is usually done from parent to child - it's rare in the animal kingdom for the old to be protected by the young. This is a primate phenomenon, and humans take it to the greatest extreme in the animal kingdom.

I recall the chimp Tom from Goodall's clan got polio and was paralyzed from the hip down, and also in one forearm. He was cared for and protected by his brother. Ultimately, Goodall decided to euthanize, but the point is that we don't know how long Tom's younger brother would have kept him alive, hoping he would recover.

Point is: decrepitude is not a uniquely human trait. Nothing is, really.

DangerousBeliefs · 3rd December 2006, 08:31 PM

Another "but this proves God exists" thread... debunked.

Did you not own a dog when you were younger?

Zep · 3rd December 2006, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by idunno

hi sometimes i think there is a force or god out there.certain things are difficult to explain.

So if YOU find certain things are difficult to explain, does that mean EVERYONE therefore has to acknowledge the existence of "God"?

I would suggest you have not really done any serious thinking at all.

Go to bed, get some sleep, clear your mind, and try again tomorrow. OK?

The Darkest One · 3rd December 2006, 10:21 PM

Animals live longer, and are less disfigured as they age, than certain arguments on the JREF Forum

LawnOven · 4th December 2006, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by blutoski

I'm not sure that this is true...

you know you're right, that's what happens when I cite things from memory.

According to this wikipedia article it's more like mid-50's from adolescence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

PogoPedant · 4th December 2006, 02:42 AM

For anybody who thinks dogs don't deteriorate with time : http://static.flickr.com/28/36995814_dd1abc37fc.jpg (not for the faint of heart

)

LawnOven · 4th December 2006, 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by Elizabeth I

The real mystery is why you spelled it "mistery." Were you going for "misery"?

I think it was meant as an adjective mistery, as in, having the qualities of "mister".

LawnOven · 4th December 2006, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by PogoPedant

For anybody who thinks dogs don't deteriorate with time : http://static.flickr.com/28/36995814_dd1abc37fc.jpg (not for the faint of heart

)

Sam!

aww, that poor guy is dead now I believe.

Tricky · 4th December 2006, 05:20 AM

Originally Posted by LawnOven

I think it was meant as an adjective mistery, as in, having the qualities of "mister".

I disagree. It is a noun, referring to the part of your house or greenhouse where you mist your plants. Like a nursery is where you nurse.

Lothian · 4th December 2006, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by idunno

hi sometimes i think there is a force or god out there.certain things are difficult to explain.For example why is man the only species that gets disfigured as it ages? Is there any evoidence as to why?

I agree. Why do we get disfigured as we get older ? Why does our body fail, aches and pains grow, our mind deteriorate.

There can be only one reason and that reason is found in the bible. God is a senseless sadistic killer. A psychopath of the highest order. Only god would make us suffer like this.

Soapy Sam · 4th December 2006, 06:14 AM

One reason we notice the aging process in humans is- wait for it- because we are humans. We are hard wired to detect signs of age , in both sexes, because doing so is very important in mate selection.

It can be far harder to detect signs of aging in other species- especially ones which can potentially outlive us., if spared from accident. Just because we can't tell their age does not mean they do not age.

There are two pictures of the late Aberdeen ornithologist George Dunnet, taken 30 years apart, holding the same Fulmar, as mentioned in this item-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/animals/...us/index.shtml
I have seen the photos , but I do not know if they are available on line. There's no doubt the bird appears to have aged a lot less than the man between the pictures, but it might not look that way to another fulmar.

ETA- idunno- you might also find this item on aging to be worth a read.
http://pages.britishlibrary.net/nick...%20extract.htm

Beerina · 4th December 2006, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by rachaella

I had an old hamster with arthritis. His joints got all swollen. He lived over 3 years which is pretty ancient for a hamster and didn't move much in his last months, probably because it hurt. His fur was coming out and much less soft and silky. He definitely didn't look like he did when he was young, frisky, and would make escape attempts weekly. Couldn't even climb through his tubes or run on his wheel. Animals do get old. My vet has pamplets about caring for aging cats, rabbits and guinea pigs.

My dad took my gramma's dog when she passed away at 85 two years ago. he was old then, and is even more decrepit now. He's a poodle/something mix, a smallish dog. I think he's about 12 or 13. He can walk, but is somewhat slow about it, and has a tough time climbing stairs. He cannot jump up on the sofa anymore. His body is loaded with cysts and lumps under the skin. He also has a tough time seeing.

My dad came over for dinner yesterday with the doggy, and when he left to go back home, the dog wouldn't leave the garage to join him in the car (nighttime). We suspect it is because his vision is very dim, though he appears to hear fine (or at least good enough.) He hears and looks, but doesn't seem to be confident enough in seeing my dad. So my dad carries him into the car.

Beerina · 4th December 2006, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by blutoski

I was just polishing off some Cicero, written when he was in his seventies. In his era, there was nothing that we would call 'modern' medicine, and if you got past that risky infancy, went to the gymnasium daily, ate properly... you could expect to live about that long.

One does wonder how much of the "worn out and dead by 40" is real and how much is just a misunderstanding of "average age" which involved a ton of accidents, infection, and disease that isn't really related to aging. That people, especially the more well-to-do, lived into their 70's (as long as they didn't cut a finger too badly or get caught in the near omnipresent wars) was well known.

Indeed, the "average age" nowadays of 74 or 75 (72 for men, 77 women) itself includes infant mortality and accidents. If one removes the infant mortality and accidents (and some relatively avoidable diseases like AIDS) I wonder what the average lifespan is? The "I made it past infancy and avoided getting killed" biological average lifespan.

Mr Clingford · 4th December 2006, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Indeed, the "average age" nowadays of 74 or 75 (72 for men, 77 women) itself includes infant mortality and accidents. If one removes the infant mortality and accidents (and some relatively avoidable diseases like AIDS) I wonder what the average lifespan is? The "I made it past infancy and avoided getting killed" biological average lifespan.

Yes, it would be interesting to know (especially as my parents are 70 and 71) and I have wondered about it myself (but obviously not enough to get off my arse and do some research!).

3rd December 2006, 07:23 AM	#1
idunno Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 815	mistery hi sometimes i think there is a force or god out there.certain things are difficult to explain.For example why is man the only species that gets disfigured as it ages? Is there any evoidence as to why?
idunno Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 815

3rd December 2006, 07:53 AM	#2
wollery Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs! TLA Winner Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Land of Eternal Hope Posts: 10,315	Ever seen a picture of an old chimp?
	__________________ "You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin

3rd December 2006, 08:00 AM	#3
idunno Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 815	Originally Posted by wollery Ever seen a picture of an old chimp? well but cats for example? Or birds?
idunno Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 815

3rd December 2006, 08:26 AM	#6
Timble Muse Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Wisteria Avenue, Huntingdon Posts: 934	Originally Posted by idunno well but cats for example? Or birds? We had a budgerigar that lived for 15 years, a lot longer than it would have done in the wild, by the end of its life a lot of the colouring had gone from its feathers and they were definitely coming out in places. It had also stopped flying and just walked round. I've seen very old and worn-looking cats, with limps, bald patches and rheumy eyes...
	__________________ We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful what we pretend to be.

3rd December 2006, 08:42 AM	#7
rachaella Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: State College, PA but my heart will remain in Rochester, NY for quite some time Posts: 467	I had an old hamster with arthritis. His joints got all swollen. He lived over 3 years which is pretty ancient for a hamster and didn't move much in his last months, probably because it hurt. His fur was coming out and much less soft and silky. He definitely didn't look like he did when he was young, frisky, and would make escape attempts weekly. Couldn't even climb through his tubes or run on his wheel. Animals do get old. My vet has pamplets about caring for aging cats, rabbits and guinea pigs.
	__________________ The universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper. - E.Philpotts If the benefits of getting married boil down to joining an exclusive club for straight people, perhaps its time to reconsider getting married - Me

3rd December 2006, 08:06 AM	#4
Cosmo Radioactive Rationalist Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 1,169	Originally Posted by idunno well but cats for example? Or birds? Same for them. Every living thing becomes less effective in some way as it gets older.

3rd December 2006, 08:20 AM	#5
Mashuna Ovis ex Machina Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Welsh Wales Posts: 6,580	Originally Posted by idunno well but cats for example? Or birds? Animals, when they get older, tend to be dead. No relaxing into retirement with a pension for them!

3rd December 2006, 08:46 AM	#8
Mr Clingford Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: UK Posts: 1,691	Originally Posted by Mashuna Animals, when they get older, tend to be dead. No relaxing into retirement with a pension for them! Absolutely. The body slows down so you are slower and end up eaten or not able to find enough food to eat because others got there first and die.
	__________________ God is my copilot. But we crashed into a mountain and I had to eat him.

3rd December 2006, 08:49 AM	#9
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,060	Both cats and dogs I have owned have gotten gray around the muzzle (is it still called a muzzle on a cat?) as they aged. They get arthritis, kidney failure, heart problems etc. If they were wild animals they would have been eaten by something younger and stronger.
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

3rd December 2006, 09:06 AM	#11
Glen.Nogami Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 495	Originally Posted by idunno hi sometimes i think there is a force or god out there.certain things are difficult to explain.For example why is man the only species that gets disfigured as it ages? Is there any evoidence as to why? With all the examples above, I suppose I don't need to add my own experience. Interesting article (old, too): http://www.boston.com/news/world/art...ause_of_aging/ It appears that that and probably other factors contribute to the aging process. As stated above, humans are not, in fact, the only species that ages, but other species typically die very early in the aging process, due to fiercer competition. Such a phenomenon is certainly not a reason to postulate a supernatural entity solely for explanation's sake. [nitpick]Also, it's spelled "mystery"[/nitpick]
	__________________ Every valley shall be exalted and every mountain and hill shall be made low. -Isaiah 40:4 Last edited by Glen.Nogami; 3rd December 2006 at 09:10 AM.

3rd December 2006, 09:13 AM	#12
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	Originally Posted by idunno hi sometimes i think there is a force or god out there.certain things are difficult to explain. Setting up a false dichotomy won't explain them, either. That a natural phenomenon isn't well understood yet isn't an indication that an invisible, omni-being must, therefore, exist. Quote: For example why is man the only species that gets disfigured as it ages? Is there any evoidence as to why? The first bit of "evidence" lies in recognizing this as a false assertion. Animals do age. They lose their teeth, visual acuity, hearing, fur, muscle mass, bone density, and skin tone as they age, just as humans do. That you have yet to observe this means only that you have yet to observe it. Let us, however, assume for a moment that this is true; that animals don't appear to age in the same way humans do. How would this isolated fact indicate a god? The fact that humankind cannot yet explain everything in the cosmos is no indicator of a god. Is the fact that we can explain so much more today than we could even 100 years ago an indicator there is no god, as well? Maybe the answer is as simple as recognizing there are many things you cannot yet explain, but that others can. Maybe it's that you don't know everything yet? Maybe it's easier to create an imaginary being than to admit ignorance, or do the hard work of educating oneself?
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642

3rd December 2006, 09:28 AM	#13
Squishua Thinker Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: California, USA Posts: 129	Originally Posted by idunno why is man the only species that gets disfigured as it ages? Is there any evoidence as to why? Have you considered that humans have invented medical technology, agriculture, climate-controlled housing, societies, etc, which enables them to live much, much longer than they would if still scurrying around nomadically in the wild? And as far as us becoming "disfigured," I can only assume you mean wrinkled and severely old-looking. For that I ask that you consider how most other animals would look if they: 1. Lived more than 500% longer than they had adapted to live in the wild, and 2. Had no fur to protect their skin from sunlight that entire time. Everything is a mystery if you don't think things through a bit. -Squish

3rd December 2006, 10:23 AM	#14
l0rca I know so much karate Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,100	This guy has the same reasoning my mom has. ...Mommy?

3rd December 2006, 10:37 AM	#15
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,226	Originally Posted by Mashuna Animals, when they get older, tend to be dead. No relaxing into retirement with a pension for them! Bingo.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

3rd December 2006, 11:18 AM	#16
blutoski Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 5,980	Originally Posted by idunno well but cats for example? Or birds? Yes, cats and birds have senescence. Dogs, too. They get arthritis, lipomas, bad hearts, have strokes, weak immune systems, cataracts, nearsightedness, cancer... Are you sincerly unaware that all animals get creaky in their old age? (there are a few exceptions: hydras do not have a senescence)
	__________________ "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

3rd December 2006, 12:54 PM	#17
LawnOven robot Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,306	One might also add, that... It is not normal for people to live to be 75, unaided by modern medicine you are looking at something around 30-40 years, for people that make it into adolescence.
	__________________ Principia Discordia Last edited by LawnOven; 3rd December 2006 at 12:58 PM.

3rd December 2006, 01:04 PM	#18
wahrheit Pac-Man Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,591	Originally Posted by idunno For example why is man the only species that gets disfigured as it ages? As opposed to plants, who always look youthful?
wahrheit Pac-Man Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,591	__________________ For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen. D. Adams -- THHGTTG You're a sick man. The Atheist

3rd December 2006, 01:25 PM	#19
Elizabeth I Olympic Equestrian Wannabe Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Defending the Alamo Posts: 9,266	The real mystery is why you spelled it "mistery." Were you going for "misery"?
	__________________ • There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man. - Winston Churchill • Never wrestle with a pig - you just get dirty and the pig enjoys it. • My blog: Pardon me, may I ask...

3rd December 2006, 05:20 PM	#20
Ausmerican Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,381	It's a trade off. Animals mature faster than us and die earlier than us. We live unnaturally long lives due to technology. Animals also don't tend to smoke, drink alcohol and eat junk that is unnecessary for their survival. We are the only species that knowingly and willingly poisons itself in small doses throughout our lives. And for this we should look pretty?
Ausmerican Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,381	__________________ Everyone must believe in something. I believe I'll go canoeing. Henry David Thoreau

3rd December 2006, 08:22 PM	#21
blutoski Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 5,980	Originally Posted by LawnOven One might also add, that... It is not normal for people to live to be 75, unaided by modern medicine you are looking at something around 30-40 years, for people that make it into adolescence. I'm not sure that this is true... from what we can tell, even in antiquity, if the person managed to avoid fatal illness and ate well, sixty to eighty was a realistic lifespan for men. The mean average lifespan of 30-40 is lower than the life expectancy of an adult, specifically because of the infant mortality problem. I was just polishing off some Cicero, written when he was in his seventies. In his era, there was nothing that we would call 'modern' medicine, and if you got past that risky infancy, went to the gymnasium daily, ate properly... you could expect to live about that long. In his case, he would have lived probably into his eighties, but he had a big mouth and was executed. Also: even in this era, the Romans practiced infanticide, further skewing life expectancy statistics. Going further back - who knows. But we do have remains of, say, Homo erectus, and they're a damn healthy bunch! The Turkana Boy was probably 14 years old, and almost 6 feet tall, perfect teeth, &c. But then again... he is a 14 year old corpse...
	__________________ "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

3rd December 2006, 08:25 PM	#22
Mercutio Shakespeare's Sock Puppet Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Live Free Or Die Posts: 16,325	Ernest Thompson Seton wrote a book that was a favorite of mine as a youngster-- Autobiography of a Grizzly. The later chapters, where he grows old and feeble, are so sad...
	__________________ "But to see her was to love her Love but her, and love forever."

3rd December 2006, 08:28 PM	#23
blutoski Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 5,980	Originally Posted by Ausmerican It's a trade off. Animals mature faster than us and die earlier than us. We live unnaturally long lives due to technology. Animals also don't tend to smoke, drink alcohol and eat junk that is unnecessary for their survival. We are the only species that knowingly and willingly poisons itself in small doses throughout our lives. And for this we should look pretty? One other thing that we do in spades is care for our fellows: one of the earliest signs of 'civilization' is a hominoid that has deformed bones (vitaminitisis A) and has clearly been cared for beyond her ability to ambulate. Altruism is usually done from parent to child - it's rare in the animal kingdom for the old to be protected by the young. This is a primate phenomenon, and humans take it to the greatest extreme in the animal kingdom. I recall the chimp Tom from Goodall's clan got polio and was paralyzed from the hip down, and also in one forearm. He was cared for and protected by his brother. Ultimately, Goodall decided to euthanize, but the point is that we don't know how long Tom's younger brother would have kept him alive, hoping he would recover. Point is: decrepitude is not a uniquely human trait. Nothing is, really.
	__________________ "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

3rd December 2006, 08:31 PM	#24
DangerousBeliefs Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,304	Another "but this proves God exists" thread... debunked. Did you not own a dog when you were younger?
	__________________ Posting and you...

3rd December 2006, 09:10 PM	#25
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985	Originally Posted by idunno hi sometimes i think there is a force or god out there.certain things are difficult to explain. So if YOU find certain things are difficult to explain, does that mean EVERYONE therefore has to acknowledge the existence of "God"? I would suggest you have not really done any serious thinking at all. Go to bed, get some sleep, clear your mind, and try again tomorrow. OK?
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985

3rd December 2006, 10:21 PM	#26
The Darkest One Student Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 32	Animals live longer, and are less disfigured as they age, than certain arguments on the JREF Forum
The Darkest One Student Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 32

4th December 2006, 02:06 AM	#27
LawnOven robot Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,306	Originally Posted by blutoski I'm not sure that this is true... you know you're right, that's what happens when I cite things from memory. According to this wikipedia article it's more like mid-50's from adolescence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy
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4th December 2006, 02:42 AM	#28
PogoPedant Muse Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 764	For anybody who thinks dogs don't deteriorate with time : http://static.flickr.com/28/36995814_dd1abc37fc.jpg (not for the faint of heart )
PogoPedant Muse Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 764

4th December 2006, 02:55 AM	#29
LawnOven robot Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,306	Originally Posted by Elizabeth I The real mystery is why you spelled it "mistery." Were you going for "misery"? I think it was meant as an adjective mistery, as in, having the qualities of "mister".
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4th December 2006, 02:59 AM	#30
LawnOven robot Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,306	Originally Posted by PogoPedant For anybody who thinks dogs don't deteriorate with time : http://static.flickr.com/28/36995814_dd1abc37fc.jpg (not for the faint of heart ) Sam! aww, that poor guy is dead now I believe.
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4th December 2006, 05:20 AM	#31
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,361	Originally Posted by LawnOven I think it was meant as an adjective mistery, as in, having the qualities of "mister". I disagree. It is a noun, referring to the part of your house or greenhouse where you mist your plants. Like a nursery is where you nurse.

4th December 2006, 05:37 AM	#32
Lothian Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: https://twitter.com/CV4UK Posts: 10,373	Originally Posted by idunno hi sometimes i think there is a force or god out there.certain things are difficult to explain.For example why is man the only species that gets disfigured as it ages? Is there any evoidence as to why? I agree. Why do we get disfigured as we get older ? Why does our body fail, aches and pains grow, our mind deteriorate. There can be only one reason and that reason is found in the bible. God is a senseless sadistic killer. A psychopath of the highest order. Only god would make us suffer like this.

4th December 2006, 06:14 AM	#33
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	One reason we notice the aging process in humans is- wait for it- because we are humans. We are hard wired to detect signs of age , in both sexes, because doing so is very important in mate selection. It can be far harder to detect signs of aging in other species- especially ones which can potentially outlive us., if spared from accident. Just because we can't tell their age does not mean they do not age. There are two pictures of the late Aberdeen ornithologist George Dunnet, taken 30 years apart, holding the same Fulmar, as mentioned in this item- http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/animals/...us/index.shtml I have seen the photos , but I do not know if they are available on line. There's no doubt the bird appears to have aged a lot less than the man between the pictures, but it might not look that way to another fulmar. ETA- idunno- you might also find this item on aging to be worth a read. http://pages.britishlibrary.net/nick...%20extract.htm
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Last edited by Soapy Sam; 4th December 2006 at 06:19 AM.

4th December 2006, 10:38 AM	#34
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by rachaella I had an old hamster with arthritis. His joints got all swollen. He lived over 3 years which is pretty ancient for a hamster and didn't move much in his last months, probably because it hurt. His fur was coming out and much less soft and silky. He definitely didn't look like he did when he was young, frisky, and would make escape attempts weekly. Couldn't even climb through his tubes or run on his wheel. Animals do get old. My vet has pamplets about caring for aging cats, rabbits and guinea pigs. My dad took my gramma's dog when she passed away at 85 two years ago. he was old then, and is even more decrepit now. He's a poodle/something mix, a smallish dog. I think he's about 12 or 13. He can walk, but is somewhat slow about it, and has a tough time climbing stairs. He cannot jump up on the sofa anymore. His body is loaded with cysts and lumps under the skin. He also has a tough time seeing. My dad came over for dinner yesterday with the doggy, and when he left to go back home, the dog wouldn't leave the garage to join him in the car (nighttime). We suspect it is because his vision is very dim, though he appears to hear fine (or at least good enough.) He hears and looks, but doesn't seem to be confident enough in seeing my dad. So my dad carries him into the car.
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4th December 2006, 10:55 AM	#35
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by blutoski I was just polishing off some Cicero, written when he was in his seventies. In his era, there was nothing that we would call 'modern' medicine, and if you got past that risky infancy, went to the gymnasium daily, ate properly... you could expect to live about that long. One does wonder how much of the "worn out and dead by 40" is real and how much is just a misunderstanding of "average age" which involved a ton of accidents, infection, and disease that isn't really related to aging. That people, especially the more well-to-do, lived into their 70's (as long as they didn't cut a finger too badly or get caught in the near omnipresent wars) was well known. Indeed, the "average age" nowadays of 74 or 75 (72 for men, 77 women) itself includes infant mortality and accidents. If one removes the infant mortality and accidents (and some relatively avoidable diseases like AIDS) I wonder what the average lifespan is? The "I made it past infancy and avoided getting killed" biological average lifespan.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

4th December 2006, 11:01 AM	#36
Mr Clingford Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: UK Posts: 1,691	Originally Posted by Beerina Indeed, the "average age" nowadays of 74 or 75 (72 for men, 77 women) itself includes infant mortality and accidents. If one removes the infant mortality and accidents (and some relatively avoidable diseases like AIDS) I wonder what the average lifespan is? The "I made it past infancy and avoided getting killed" biological average lifespan. Yes, it would be interesting to know (especially as my parents are 70 and 71) and I have wondered about it myself (but obviously not enough to get off my arse and do some research!).
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