Packet tricks vs Earned effects

GroundStrength · 27th June 2003, 10:33 AM

My friend and I always talk about this subject and it was touched on briefly in another thread here so I would like to get the opinion of everyone here.

When I first became interested in magic I was buying the tricks from Frankel's here in Houston and they were good but I found that the better effects were getting pretty pricey. Then I founf the Tarbell series and instead of $25 for one trick I spent $25 on one book with a hundred tricks. BTW I think anyone who wants to get going should get the Tarbell series.

I find that I get more reaction and better effects by combing multiple pricinples.

lets hear you

rustypouch · 27th June 2003, 12:25 PM

It depends on the trick. I have a few packaged tricks that were well worth the money, but others that were way to complex and gimmicky for pratical use.

I do like knowing tricks that rely on sleight of hand. I can use any deck to do some effects, and in my eyes this just makes it more powerful.

I hate doing a trick and when the spectator asks to see the deck making up some lame excuse why they can't, but when they can the trick seems closer to real magic.

And as for combining principles, I agree. Several of the tricks I do are a combination of slieghts and patter learn from different sources.

GroundStrength · 27th June 2003, 12:30 PM

I am moving toward much more impromptu effects now. I hate having to reset or not being able to hand out an item.

There is a great one with a Bic pen(totaly normal ungimmicked pen) that I am now doing that looks like real telekinesis. The effect is the pen sits on top of a glass, bottle whatever and I cause it to spin in one direction..stop..and spin the ohter direction. I then request the the spectators tell me which way to spin it. No money, no gimmick and the pen can be handed out right after the effect.

No more packet tricks for me.

wert · 27th June 2003, 01:07 PM

For beginners, I strongly recommend the "Mark Wilson Course in magic". It's a large book that sells for around $20 at your local Borders.

If you are interested in cards the "Royal Road to Card Magic" is an excellent place to start.

richardm · 30th June 2003, 04:07 AM

Ah, there's nothing wrong with packet tricks per se. If you have a repertoire of sleighted stuff then chucking in a packet trick here and there can be very impressive. They let you do things that you couldn't easily do by hand, and if you've already set the audience up with your real manual skill and dexterity, they'll be suitably knocked out.

Of course, you've always got the the problem of choosing which ones to buy. I moved to books after yet another Jiffy bag full of appalling rubbish arrived at my desk. But I still use some of the good ones - "The Dark Card" springs to mind.

Brown · 30th June 2003, 08:33 AM

I visited a shop two days ago that sold magic tricks.

I was disappointed at how much the shop was charging for some of the tricks. Some simple one-shot tricks were being sold for $25 or more.

It was this sort of thing that can discourage a budding magician. When you spend $25 for a trick, and find out that there's not very much to it, and that the trick is really only good for one mediocre effect, then that can be very upsetting. It can also be upsetting if the secret that is disclosed is not a secret that a professional performer would use. Some tricks are expensive "rip-offs."

Some performers, such as magician Michael Finney, make comments about overpriced magic tricks in their acts.

Lavie Enrose · 30th June 2003, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brown
It was this sort of thing that can discourage a budding magician. When you spend $25 for a trick, and find out that there's not very much to it, and that the trick is really only good for one mediocre effect, then that can be very upsetting. It can also be upsetting if the secret that is disclosed is not a secret that a professional performer would use. Some tricks are expensive "rip-offs."

A solution to this problem might be a customer having the trick demostrated before it is bought. That can be a problem, though, as many stores do not have someone who can perform the trick. It also is not an option for catalogue, or 'net buying. Still, the best solution would be not charging so much money for the trick in the first place.

Brown · 30th June 2003, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lavie Enrose
A solution to this problem might be a customer having the trick demostrated before it is bought.

This is a reasonable request. Good magic shops will demonstrate some of the tricks for you. The most recent trick I bought sold itself, i.e., the shopkeeper demonstrated it and it really fooled me. I doubt I would have bought the trick without the demonstration.

Quote:

Originally posted by Lavie Enrose
Still, the best solution would be not charging so much money for the trick in the first place.

For some tricks at this particular shop, I found myself cringing at the prices. People who paid that kind of money for some of the tricks were going to feel cheated.

Some of the tricks that David Blaine performs had some of the highest prices, and were sure to be the biggest letdowns for anyone paying top dollar for them.

Some of the tricks were the lame sort of tricks that used to be given away in boxes of children's cereal. For the price of the trick in the shop, you could buy four or five boxes of cereal.

bignickel · 30th June 2003, 12:17 PM

I bought Tarbell vol 1 & 2 on Ebay. Very good investments.

I did find them somewhat dated in certain respects (can anyone find a manilla envelope that can't be seen through?), but the books just had so many very good tricks listed.

He covers a heck of a lot of subjects in them. I never good get the card-palming thing down: I'm not sure if they used smaller playing cards back then, or what, but he would describe palming up to 6 cards at a time.

BTW - they released a mini- abridged version of Mark Wilson's book. It's smaller than a computer speaker, and costs less than $10.

GroundStrength · 30th June 2003, 12:22 PM

The cards he talking about are thinner, plastic I think. I hope that is not giving away a secret (seriously) if it is I'll edit and remove.

Lavie Enrose · 30th June 2003, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brown
This is a reasonable request. Good magic shops will demonstrate some of the tricks for you. The most recent trick I bought sold itself, i.e., the shopkeeper demonstrated it and it really fooled me. I doubt I would have bought the trick without the demonstration.For some tricks at this particular shop, I found myself cringing at the prices. People who paid that kind of money for some of the tricks were going to feel cheated.

When I worked a magic counter in a store, I had to learn all the tricks that were sold because demostrating a trick for someone was a good way to determine if the person should buy the trick or not. If the person does not like the trick, she/he has not wasted any money on it.

Quote:

Some of the tricks that David Blaine performs had some of the highest prices, and were sure to be the biggest letdowns for anyone paying top dollar for them.

True.

"David Blaine Magic Deck of Cards! Reveal the card a spectator is thinking of in only 52 trys, or less! Amaze your friends! Only $29.99 (Video camera and video editor not included)"

How much is a block of ice at the magic store?

bignickel · 30th June 2003, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GroundStrength
The cards he talking about are thinner, plastic I think.

Where can I obtain such? The cards I was practicing with (and still have in my bookbag wherever I go) are from Walgreens.

I remember emailing some playing card companies, and they wrote back and told me that they all sell the same standard card sizes: regular and jumbo. I may have even written a magic supply house (can't remember).

NoZed Avenger · 30th June 2003, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bignickel

Where can I obtain such? The cards I was practicing with (and still have in my bookbag wherever I go) are from Walgreens.

I remember emailing some playing card companies, and they wrote back and told me that they all sell the same standard card sizes: regular and jumbo. I may have even written a magic supply house (can't remember).

Most magic stores can supply you -- it isn't the dimensions of the card face so much, but the thickness of the cards that counts.

RSLancastr · 30th June 2003, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bignickel
Where can I obtain such? The cards I was practicing with (and still have in my bookbag wherever I go) are from Walgreens.

I remember emailing some playing card companies, and they wrote back and told me that they all sell the same standard card sizes: regular and jumbo. I may have even written a magic supply house (can't remember).

I'm not a magician, so forgive me if I am stating the obvious here...

Aside from novelty sizes (mini/patience, jumbo, etc) playing cards are generally sold in two sizes: Poker (2.5" x 3.5") and Bridge (2.25" x 3.5").

I would assume that Bridge cards, being narrower, would be easier to palm.

As to card thicknesses, this would vary by manufacturer and materials used. I believe that "pasteboard" cards are made in varying thicknesses, depending on the quality/layers in the pasteboard.

Plastic cards (Kem, etc) are single-layer, and so are whatever thickness the manufacturer decides.

27th June 2003, 10:33 AM	#1
GroundStrength Scourge of the Attentionwhore Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Houston Baby! Posts: 649	Packet tricks vs Earned effects My friend and I always talk about this subject and it was touched on briefly in another thread here so I would like to get the opinion of everyone here. When I first became interested in magic I was buying the tricks from Frankel's here in Houston and they were good but I found that the better effects were getting pretty pricey. Then I founf the Tarbell series and instead of $25 for one trick I spent $25 on one book with a hundred tricks. BTW I think anyone who wants to get going should get the Tarbell series. I find that I get more reaction and better effects by combing multiple pricinples. lets hear you

27th June 2003, 01:07 PM	#4
wert Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 371	For beginners, I strongly recommend the "Mark Wilson Course in magic". It's a large book that sells for around $20 at your local Borders. If you are interested in cards the "Royal Road to Card Magic" is an excellent place to start.
wert Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 371

30th June 2003, 04:07 AM	#5
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,477	Ah, there's nothing wrong with packet tricks per se. If you have a repertoire of sleighted stuff then chucking in a packet trick here and there can be very impressive. They let you do things that you couldn't easily do by hand, and if you've already set the audience up with your real manual skill and dexterity, they'll be suitably knocked out. Of course, you've always got the the problem of choosing which ones to buy. I moved to books after yet another Jiffy bag full of appalling rubbish arrived at my desk. But I still use some of the good ones - "The Dark Card" springs to mind.
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,477	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

30th June 2003, 08:33 AM	#6
Brown Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Twin Cities, Canada Posts: 9,025	I visited a shop two days ago that sold magic tricks. I was disappointed at how much the shop was charging for some of the tricks. Some simple one-shot tricks were being sold for $25 or more. It was this sort of thing that can discourage a budding magician. When you spend $25 for a trick, and find out that there's not very much to it, and that the trick is really only good for one mediocre effect, then that can be very upsetting. It can also be upsetting if the secret that is disclosed is not a secret that a professional performer would use. Some tricks are expensive "rip-offs." Some performers, such as magician Michael Finney, make comments about overpriced magic tricks in their acts.
	__________________ Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice

30th June 2003, 10:46 AM	#8
Brown Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Twin Cities, Canada Posts: 9,025	Quote: Originally posted by Lavie Enrose A solution to this problem might be a customer having the trick demostrated before it is bought. This is a reasonable request. Good magic shops will demonstrate some of the tricks for you. The most recent trick I bought sold itself, i.e., the shopkeeper demonstrated it and it really fooled me. I doubt I would have bought the trick without the demonstration. Quote: Originally posted by Lavie Enrose Still, the best solution would be not charging so much money for the trick in the first place. For some tricks at this particular shop, I found myself cringing at the prices. People who paid that kind of money for some of the tricks were going to feel cheated. Some of the tricks that David Blaine performs had some of the highest prices, and were sure to be the biggest letdowns for anyone paying top dollar for them. Some of the tricks were the lame sort of tricks that used to be given away in boxes of children's cereal. For the price of the trick in the shop, you could buy four or five boxes of cereal.
	__________________ Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice

27th June 2003, 12:25 PM	#2
rustypouch Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Calgary... Posts: 2,584	It depends on the trick. I have a few packaged tricks that were well worth the money, but others that were way to complex and gimmicky for pratical use. I do like knowing tricks that rely on sleight of hand. I can use any deck to do some effects, and in my eyes this just makes it more powerful. I hate doing a trick and when the spectator asks to see the deck making up some lame excuse why they can't, but when they can the trick seems closer to real magic. And as for combining principles, I agree. Several of the tricks I do are a combination of slieghts and patter learn from different sources.

27th June 2003, 12:30 PM	#3
GroundStrength Scourge of the Attentionwhore Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Houston Baby! Posts: 649	I am moving toward much more impromptu effects now. I hate having to reset or not being able to hand out an item. There is a great one with a Bic pen(totaly normal ungimmicked pen) that I am now doing that looks like real telekinesis. The effect is the pen sits on top of a glass, bottle whatever and I cause it to spin in one direction..stop..and spin the ohter direction. I then request the the spectators tell me which way to spin it. No money, no gimmick and the pen can be handed out right after the effect. No more packet tricks for me.

30th June 2003, 09:14 AM	#7
Lavie Enrose Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,961	Quote: Originally posted by Brown It was this sort of thing that can discourage a budding magician. When you spend $25 for a trick, and find out that there's not very much to it, and that the trick is really only good for one mediocre effect, then that can be very upsetting. It can also be upsetting if the secret that is disclosed is not a secret that a professional performer would use. Some tricks are expensive "rip-offs." A solution to this problem might be a customer having the trick demostrated before it is bought. That can be a problem, though, as many stores do not have someone who can perform the trick. It also is not an option for catalogue, or 'net buying. Still, the best solution would be not charging so much money for the trick in the first place.

30th June 2003, 12:17 PM	#9
bignickel Mad Mod Poet God Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 2,582	I bought Tarbell vol 1 & 2 on Ebay. Very good investments. I did find them somewhat dated in certain respects (can anyone find a manilla envelope that can't be seen through?), but the books just had so many very good tricks listed. He covers a heck of a lot of subjects in them. I never good get the card-palming thing down: I'm not sure if they used smaller playing cards back then, or what, but he would describe palming up to 6 cards at a time. BTW - they released a mini- abridged version of Mark Wilson's book. It's smaller than a computer speaker, and costs less than $10.
	__________________ "You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real. I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that." - Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone

30th June 2003, 12:22 PM	#10
GroundStrength Scourge of the Attentionwhore Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Houston Baby! Posts: 649	The cards he talking about are thinner, plastic I think. I hope that is not giving away a secret (seriously) if it is I'll edit and remove.

30th June 2003, 12:23 PM	#11
Lavie Enrose Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,961	Quote: Originally posted by Brown This is a reasonable request. Good magic shops will demonstrate some of the tricks for you. The most recent trick I bought sold itself, i.e., the shopkeeper demonstrated it and it really fooled me. I doubt I would have bought the trick without the demonstration.For some tricks at this particular shop, I found myself cringing at the prices. People who paid that kind of money for some of the tricks were going to feel cheated. When I worked a magic counter in a store, I had to learn all the tricks that were sold because demostrating a trick for someone was a good way to determine if the person should buy the trick or not. If the person does not like the trick, she/he has not wasted any money on it. Quote: Some of the tricks that David Blaine performs had some of the highest prices, and were sure to be the biggest letdowns for anyone paying top dollar for them. True. "David Blaine Magic Deck of Cards! Reveal the card a spectator is thinking of in only 52 trys, or less! Amaze your friends! Only $29.99 (Video camera and video editor not included)" How much is a block of ice at the magic store?

30th June 2003, 12:25 PM	#12
bignickel Mad Mod Poet God Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 2,582	Quote: Originally posted by GroundStrength The cards he talking about are thinner, plastic I think. Where can I obtain such? The cards I was practicing with (and still have in my bookbag wherever I go) are from Walgreens. I remember emailing some playing card companies, and they wrote back and told me that they all sell the same standard card sizes: regular and jumbo. I may have even written a magic supply house (can't remember).
	__________________ "You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real. I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that." - Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone

30th June 2003, 12:27 PM	#13
NoZed Avenger Bitter Whiner Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 8,411	Quote: Originally posted by bignickel Where can I obtain such? The cards I was practicing with (and still have in my bookbag wherever I go) are from Walgreens. I remember emailing some playing card companies, and they wrote back and told me that they all sell the same standard card sizes: regular and jumbo. I may have even written a magic supply house (can't remember). Most magic stores can supply you -- it isn't the dimensions of the card face so much, but the thickness of the cards that counts.

30th June 2003, 04:14 PM	#14
RSLancastr Philosopher www.StopSylvia.com Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Los Angeles Area Posts: 8,070	Quote: Originally posted by bignickel Where can I obtain such? The cards I was practicing with (and still have in my bookbag wherever I go) are from Walgreens. I remember emailing some playing card companies, and they wrote back and told me that they all sell the same standard card sizes: regular and jumbo. I may have even written a magic supply house (can't remember). I'm not a magician, so forgive me if I am stating the obvious here... Aside from novelty sizes (mini/patience, jumbo, etc) playing cards are generally sold in two sizes: Poker (2.5" x 3.5") and Bridge (2.25" x 3.5"). I would assume that Bridge cards, being narrower, would be easier to palm. As to card thicknesses, this would vary by manufacturer and materials used. I believe that "pasteboard" cards are made in varying thicknesses, depending on the quality/layers in the pasteboard. Plastic cards (Kem, etc) are single-layer, and so are whatever thickness the manufacturer decides.