Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

[LAL]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

Thus far, nothing.

You've spoken to him recently then?

[tube]

For those without a copy of Grover Krantz book Big Footprints, this is the illustration from page 42. I'm sorry to have posted such a poor scan of this previously.

[RayG]

Originally Posted by LAL

It's illegal to remove, own, or ship more than a spoonful of Mt. St. Helens volcanic ash from the GP.

Then how did Michael McDowell get almost 5 tons of the stuff?

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I have about five tons of ash from Mt. St. Helens 1980 eruption.

RayG

[tube]

Hey, someone should call the FBI...

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by RayG

While I've never been to Alaska, I've gotten pretty close, spending five years on the Queen Charlotte Islands* off the coast of mainland British Columbia. (the northeastern tip is about equal distance from both Alaska and BC)

I loved it there, the wife hated it. She, big city girl that she is, found it too isolated.

Was the rain a factor?

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I'd go back in a heartbeat, she wouldn't be caught dead there. Funny how two people can have such opposing viewpoints of a place.

If the wife hates the place, you'll never see it again, regardless how you might love it.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

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Originally Posted by Huntster
Have you tried the North Gulf Coast?

The beachcombing is utterly fantastic. The flotsom from the entire North Pacific visits. You never know what you might find................

Have you ever been to the west coast of Vancouver Island?

No, and I doubt I'll get the chance.

I wish I'd been there. Frankly, I suspect it's more Heaven than I'd ever known.

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The beaches of Ucleulet/Tofino are gorgeous. Long Beach is beautiful.

I believe that.

When I mentioned the beaches of the North Gulf Coast it was more about the beachcombing. The weather absolutely sucks. No people up around there. They couldn't survive.

But that's why the beachcombing is so good. Everything that goes to sea ends up on the beaches there; at least for a while.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by LAL

You may suggest, but I happen to like charchy's sense of humor. .....

I like his sense of humor as well as his outlook.

[carcharodon]

The feeling is mutual Huntster and LAL. Us 'wackos' have got to stick together you know.

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by Huntster

I like his sense of humor as well as his outlook.

Yeah, well I like eating rotten beans and fermented squid guts and I even like you so there's no accounting for taste, hey Hunt?

[LAL]

Originally Posted by tube

Hey, someone should call the FBI...

Was anyone talking about anything other than Mt. St. Helens ash? For awhile every gift shop in the PNW carried St. Helens pottery before the mountain was declared a national monument. So much ash was being removed they had to put a stop to it.

Of course, they wanted it out of eastern Washington:



http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/msh//impact.html

There were bumper crops later. The ash acted as a mulch and held water.

There was some speculation on BFF about where you got the ash and why you would use it, but no charges of stealing that I recall.

Again, how do you get "dessication ridges" in mud?

[LAL]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

Yeah, well I like eating rotten beans and fermented squid guts and I even like you so there's no accounting for taste, hey Hunt?

Fortunately I haven't had my fried fat and chicken embryos yet. I may mix in some of those rotten beans. I have two packages in my refrigerator I don't know what to do with.

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by LAL

Fortunately I haven't had my fried fat and chicken embryos yet. I may mix in some of those rotten beans. I have two packages in my refrigerator I don't know what to do with.

I know what you can do with them! I'm guessing you might not know how to prepare Japanese rice so try taking one of those packages (make sure to mix in the soy sauce and mustard that should come with it), beat a couple of eggs, toss in a little cream, a pinch of sugar, a couple drops of soy sauce, then add your stinky beans. Throw it in the pan a few seconds and have it with your bacon and maybe some toast. Yum!

[kitakaze]

Any sasquatches in there? Anybody wanna bug the rangers and ask?

[LAL]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

I know what you can do with them! I'm guessing you might not know how to prepare Japanese rice so try taking one of those packages (make sure to mix in the soy sauce and mustard that should come with it), beat a couple of eggs, toss in a little cream, a pinch of sugar, a couple drops of soy sauce, then add your stinky beans. Throw it in the pan a few seconds and have it with your bacon and maybe some toast. Yum!

Two late. I'm nuking it with southwestern Egg Starts. I'm international. And lazy.

Mustard and soy in the package? Not here. I'm not sure I still own any rice, but that sounds good. I'll have to get some cream. I only use Kikkomann Shoyu. Best stuff in the world.

I was in Japan briefly. One thing I learned was the clear soups are okay, but beware of the ones you can't see through.

[Correa Neto]

Originally Posted by LAL

Don't I always?

If you say so...

Originally Posted by LAL

They are creatures of open mountain ranges, one of the habitats that is definitely not Bigfoot.

Nope, mountain goats' habitat is much more restricted than bigfoot's alleged geographic span (assuming the critters are real and that sighting reports are reliable enough to probe their range). Despite this fact, there are remains of mountain goats. And no remains of bigfoot-like creatures in North America.

Originally Posted by LAL

There's an effort to remove them from the Olympics because they're eating rare plants, but this paper says it's unlikely their fossils will be found in the Olympics (for two reasons).

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=088...2-0&size=LARGE

Maybe because, as the paper says, they may have been introduced there in the 20's?

Even if they were there before, are the conditions everywhere at "bigfoot country" identical to those at the Olympic mountains? I don't think so.

Originally Posted by LAL

The Sasquatch sighting maps show a correlation with areas with over 20" annual rainfall. The areas they do seem to inhabit are simply not conducive to fossilization. Extensive bogs like those in Europe aren't found in this country. The closest to that are in upper Minnesota and Michigan.

A species living in such a wide area has lots of potential remains preservation sites. Bogs, as you know, are all but one.

Originally Posted by LAL

I can't think of a more widespread species than the Red Panda, from Washington and Tennessee 3-4 mya to the Himalayas today, but all that's been found in this country, so far, are a few teeth and a jawbone?

Oh, a species that is claimed to live from east to west North America is a serious contender, ain't it?

Originally Posted by LAL

That's been pointed out before, but look just at the hominid fossil record. Just how complete is that? It took the Leakeys 30 years to uncover one and they were looking.

And it's been pointed out that you don't have to be looking for a given fossil to find it. Some important remains were found by people who were not actually looking for fossils...

Originally Posted by LAL

They'd still get eaten by mice and bacteria.

That would have an easier time to eat the tiny bones of red pandas...

Originally Posted by LAL

I didn't make that claim in the first place. I think Gigantopithecus is a good candidate for an ancestor. Even if it wasn't a biped, over 300,000 years a bipedal descendant could well have evolved. Oreopithecus evolved bipedalism independently; why not an Orangutan relative?

A bipedal species could have evolved from Gigantopithecus... But its just speculation, and speculation with nothing to back it.

Originally Posted by LAL

BTW, I was being sarcastic about Homo erectus folklore. We don't know that Giganto becam extinct 300,000 years ago. They may have overlapped with modern humans. Their descendants may be living today in Asia and NA.

Speculation with very little if any backing.

Gigantopithecus may have overlapped with modern humans... Is there some reliable backing for this speculation? Not that I'm aware of. What we actually know is that the reliable avaliable data indicates they were gone before the arrival of modern humans in Asia.

Gigantopithecus or their descendents may be living today in Asia and North America... Do we have any reliable evidence of this? Not that I'm aware of.

Originally Posted by LAL

What we do know is there was once a giant ape, with reduced canines, living in China.

And that's all we know and all we have to work.
Everything else is only a supposition.

Conditions for a bigfoot/sasquatch candidate:
-bipedal
-2 to 3 m high
-look like the most common bigfoot renderings or Patty
-coehxisted in North America with the antecessors of the current Native American populations

One could even use less tighter specs, and admit a non-bipedal and/or not-so-big ape as the sasquatch myth's template. But still, it must be from North America and coehxisted for some time with the antecessors of the current Native American populations.

The undeniable fact, the reality, is that the fossil record provide no backing to the existence of such creature. One migth speculate on why not, but the fact itself will not change unless the remains of a bigfoot-like animal with the right age are found in North America.

Originally Posted by LAL

If the record were complete, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on, would they? The irony has struck me too. I'm an atheist.

Don't worry. They would for surely find some lame "explanation". Satan tricking humanity, God's first "projects" that never reached the prodution line, etc.

Just check how YEC defenders deal with geochronological data.

They have no leg to stand on, but they just don't realize this.

Not unlike some of the reasonings presented by some people who defend the claim bigfeet are real. Ironic, indeed.

Originally Posted by LAL

And I think that's a non sequitur. Lack of evidence is not evidence of a lack, eh?

In some cases, lack of evidence actually is evidence of a lack... In bigfoot's case, the absence of reliable evidence backing its reality is quite compelling evidence of its inexistence, IMHO.

Originally Posted by LAL

I don't know that there's anything to be found, but if there is, it may not have been found yet, or, perhaps, something has. Remains, if found, may have been misidentified (as extinct peccary teeth perhaps). There's a report of a primate, non-human skull being sent to sent for analysis and disappearing at USC. If true, that would point up the hazzards of finding something.

Misidentifications? Maybe. But again, this is just speculation. And please note collections from museum and universities are constantly "dug" for this type of thing.

Now, as you said, the loss of a primate skull is just a report (got a link for it, so perhaps further checking can be made?), and we already know how reliable such information are.

But when it comes to the "hazzards of finding something"...
I have no idea of what you are talking about... Maybe I actually have, but I hope its not what I'm thinking...

[LAL]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

Any sasquatches in there? Anybody wanna bug the rangers and ask?

In fact, before I moved from Skamania County, I'd read a print was found after the eruption. This was confirmed by Rick Noll some ten years later during a discussion on BFF.

Just where would one start looking for prints, bones (or even fossils) in this stuff?

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by LAL

I was in Japan briefly. One thing I learned was the clear soups are okay, but beware of the ones you can't see through.

Wha? Not a fan of miso shiru? It's made with the same thing as your breakfast. Yum.

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by LAL

Just where would one start looking for prints, bones (or even fossils) in this stuff?

Ape Cave? JK, but we can't link that without the mandatory scary legend, can we?

[RayG]

Originally Posted by Huntster

Was the rain a factor?

No, it came down to two things:

1. the isolation, and
2. the isolation

Only way off the islands is by boat or air. One bouncy ride in a seaplane was enough to freak her out for many months.

Waiting for a barge to come in with a load of Pampers wasn't her idea of a fun time. She was living in Boston when I met her, so she had access to pretty much everything and anything. Moving to a small town on an semi-isolated island was just too much of a culture shock for her. Sadly, she never wants to go back to this heavenly spot.

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If the wife hates the place, you'll never see it again, regardless how you might love it.

Yeah, I've kinda resigned myself to that fact.

RayG

[LAL]

Originally Posted by Correa Neto

If you say so...


Nope, mountain goats' habitat is much more restricted than bigfoot's alleged geographic span (assuming the critters are real and that sighting reports are reliable enough to probe their range). Despite this fact, there are remains of mountain goats. And no remains of bigfoot-like creatures in North America.

And these fossils were formed in wet, acidic forests or on the high and dry mountain slopes?

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Maybe because, as the paper says, they may have been introduced there in the 20's?

Read the rest.

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Even if they were there before, are the conditions everywhere at "bigfoot country" identical to those at the Olympic mountains? I don't think so.

The lower slopes of the Olympics are "bigfoot country". The annual precipitation at Hoh is 12-14 feet.

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A species living in such a wide area has lots of potential remains preservation sites. Bogs, as you know, are all but one.

It helps if someone throws you in:



America's bogs should be just chock full of common animal remains, I suppose.

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Oh, a species that is claimed to live from east to west North America is a serious contender, ain't it?

Excuse me? The Himalayas to the Appalachians is a helluva range in my book. 3-4 mya isn't shabby.

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And it's been pointed out that you don't have to be looking for a given fossil to find it. Some important remains were found by people who were not actually looking for fossils...

As I've mentioned, Pleistocene fossil beds aren't exactly common in areas Sasquatches are thought to inhabit. The fossils there are seem to be almost exclusively from animals of open grassland (where acid soil doesn't eat teeth). It would help to have beds and people digging in them.

A primate tooth was found at John Day. Alas, it was 20-22 million years old.

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That would have an easier time to eat the tiny bones of red pandas...

Evidently they did.

Burial has to preceed decomposition. Even elephants get reduced to greasy black spots in a short time. It's all part of the ecosystem.

"Abstract A dead mammal (i.e. cadaver) is a high quality resource (narrow carbon:nitrogen ratio, high water content) that releases an intense, localised pulse of carbon and nutrients into the soil upon decomposition. Despite the fact that as much as 5,000 kg of cadaver can be introduced to a square kilometre of terrestrial ecosystem each year, cadaver decomposition remains a neglected microsere. Here we review the processes associated with the introduction of cadaver-derived carbon and nutrients into soil from forensic and ecological settings to show that cadaver decomposition can have a greater, albeit localised, effect on belowground ecology than plant and faecal resources. Cadaveric materials are rapidly introduced to belowground floral and faunal communities, which results in the formation of a highly concentrated island of fertility, or cadaver decomposition island (CDI). CDIs are associated with increased soil microbial biomass, microbial activity (C mineralisation) and nematode abundance. Each CDI is an ephemeral natural disturbance that, in addition to releasing energy and nutrients to the wider ecosystem, acts as a hub by receiving these materials in the form of dead insects, exuvia and puparia, faecal matter (from scavengers, grazers and predators) and feathers (from avian scavengers and predators). As such, CDIs contribute to landscape heterogeneity. Furthermore, CDIs are a specialised habitat for a number of flies, beetles and pioneer vegetation, which enhances biodiversity in terrestrial ecosystems."

David O. Carter1, 3 , David Yellowlees1 and Mark Tibbett2

(1) School of Pharmacy and Molecular Sciences, James Cook University, Townsville, QLD 4811, Australia
(2) Centre for Land Rehabilitation, School of Earth and Geographical Sciences, University of Western Australia, Crawley, WA 6009, Australia
(3) Department of Entomology, University of Nebraska-Lincoln, 202 Plant Industry Building, Lincoln, NE 68583-0816, USA

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A bipedal species could have evolved from Gigantopithecus... But its just speculation, and speculation with nothing to back it.

Without those required three specimens it's all speculation.

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Speculation with very little if any backing.

Depends on how you look at it, I suppose.

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Gigantopithecus may have overlapped with modern humans... Is there some reliable backing for this speculation? Not that I'm aware of. What we actually know is that the reliable avaliable data indicates they were gone before the arrival of modern humans in Asia.

Then it's hard to see how modern humans would have folk tales about them.

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Gigantopithecus or their descendents may be living today in Asia and North America... Do we have any reliable evidence of this? Not that I'm aware of.

It's interesting Dr. Porshnev, using Russian folklore, came up with some of the same physical characteristics, including non-opposed thumb, and behaviors Green found using NA reports (no folklore).

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And that's all we know and all we have to work.
Everything else is only a supposition.

Conditions for a bigfoot/sasquatch candidate:
-bipedal
-2 to 3 m high
-look like the most common bigfoot renderings or Patty

There's quite a bit of variation in height and weight, as there is in our own species.

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-coehxisted in North America with the antecessors of the current Native American populations

The Hoopa, for one, seem to think so.

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One could even use less tighter specs, and admit a non-bipedal and/or not-so-big ape as the sasquatch myth's template. But still, it must be from North America and coehxisted for some time with the antecessors of the current Native American populations.

The undeniable fact, the reality, is that the fossil record provide no backing to the existence of such creature. One migth speculate on why not, but the fact itself will not change unless the remains of a bigfoot-like animal with the right age are found in North America.

There's probably a better chance of bringing one in alive.

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Don't worry. They would for surely find some lame "explanation". Satan tricking humanity, God's first "projects" that never reached the prodution line, etc.

In fact, a creationist website positively crowed over the Wallace "revelations". That'll fix the evolutionists!

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Just check how YEC defenders deal with geochronological data.

They have no leg to stand on, but they just don't realize this.

Not unlike some of the reasonings presented by some people who defend the claim bigfeet are real. Ironic, indeed.

Some of us don't dismiss thousands of reports that agree in anatomical details, sounds, and behavior. They're from people who have no contact with each other and are widely separated in time and distance. They'd be considere credible on anything else. We don't dismiss the physical evidence either.

Your analogy can stop right there.

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In some cases, lack of evidence actually is evidence of a lack... In bigfoot's case, the absence of reliable evidence backing its reality is quite compelling evidence of its inexistence, IMHO.

And just who's determining it's so unreliable?

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Misidentifications? Maybe. But again, this is just speculation. And please note collections from museum and universities are constantly "dug" for this type of thing.

Oh, really? Reputable scientists are digging for Sasquatch teeth in museum drawers?

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Now, as you said, the loss of a primate skull is just a report (got a link for it, so perhaps further checking can be made?), and we already know how reliable such information are.

IYHO. I'm still looking for the link (it was on BFF recently, but I can't find the thread), but it's a BFRO report so I didn't think you'd read it anyway.

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But when it comes to the "hazzards of finding something"...
I have no idea of what you are talking about... Maybe I actually have, but I hope its not what I'm thinking...

Remember the purported Yeti finger smuggled to the British Museum in Gloria Stewart's lingerie case?

[LAL]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

Wha? Not a fan of miso shiru? It's made with the same thing as your breakfast. Yum.

I was just a little startled to find a fish tail with a fin, that's all.

[carcharodon]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

Yeah, well I like eating rotten beans and fermented squid guts and I even like you so there's no accounting for taste, hey Hunt?

Hey sunshine, at least I don't go around reporting people for things I have ALREADY done and CONTINUE to do myself.

Snitch.

[LAL]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

Ape Cave? JK, but we can't link that without the mandatory scary legend, can we?

Before the eruption, there was an old clipping (1924) on the bulletin board at Spirit Lake Lodge. The story was about miners donning grizzly skins and scaring claim jumpers. Never mind it was the miners who came terrified into Kelso, not the claim jumpers.

I just saw an interview with Fred Beck. There was no mention of spirit arrows or any of the stuff his son evidently added later. He seemed quite level-headed and sane.

John Green did some extensive checking of caves. Not a productive place to look. Best place for tracks is on new skid roads. Luring seems to offer some promise, but I'm not sure how you'd lure bones or fossils (especially in igneous rocks) . Detrius covers any remains left from the scavaging and decomposition is usually complete within a year.

Did you know Skamania County covers 1684 mi² and has two traffic lights? It's fantastic country. I miss it.

http://www.skamania.org/county_maps.html

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by carcharodon

Hey sunshine, at least I don't go around reporting people for things I have ALREADY done and CONTINUE to do myself.

Snitch.

OK carcharodon, tell you what. Since you still got your skirt up and I'm doing a lousy job of disregarding you, how 'bout this- instead of stinking up the thread with crap that has nothing to do with it(that means me, too) we go over to the humor section's 'comments which are beneath you' thread or the flame wars section and insult eachother silly till it's out of our systems and maybe get some laughs at the same time. After that we can call it done and resume the subject at hand contributing like adults. Your obviously free to decline.

[LAL]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

OK carcharodon, tell you what. Since you still got your skirt up and I'm doing a lousy job of disregarding you, how 'bout this- instead of stinking up the thread with crap that has nothing to do with it(that means me, too) we go over to the humor section's 'comments which are beneath you' thread or the flame wars section and insult eachother silly till it's out of our systems and maybe get some laughs at the same time.

Now this I'd like to see. Where are these threads?

[carcharodon]

Done it.

Good idea actually.

It's in the flame section LAL:

http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=13

[SweatyYeti]

Quote:

In some cases, lack of evidence actually is evidence of a lack... In bigfoot's case, the absence of reliable evidence backing its reality is quite compelling evidence of its inexistence, IMHO.

Let's run with that principle........

With regards to the "Patterson film is a hoax" theory...
There's a TOTAL LACK of evidence for:
1) The suit...and 2) The guy who wore the suit.

Never seen...and never heard from.

"In some cases, lack of evidence is evidence of a lack." How true!

Fortunately for us Bigfoot enthusiasts...there is PLENTY of evidence for Bigfoot's existence.

[LAL]

Here's the skull report. Link doesn't work, so I'm not sure where it's from - International Bigfoot Society? Not BFRO and not USC. It's University of California at Berkeley. My bad.

"IBS Report #: 1505

Location: CLACKAMAS county, OR. United States

Sighting Type: 3

Latitude: +045˚ 17' N
Longitude: 122˚ 19' W
Day:
Month:
Year: 1978
Time:
Elevation: 780

Data Source: TR23
Credibility: 1
Locality: VCTY ESTACADA
Researcher: CLIFF OLSON
Witness: GROVER KIGGINS

Sighting Type: 3
Summary: DOG HAS STRANGE SKULL

Sighting Text:
OR Clackamas TR23 An amazing story that Cliff Olson told; was that in the spring 15 years ago Grover Kiggens, diseased, went to see what his dog was playing with, and took a human-like skull away from him. Talked to Mrs. Millie Kiggens, now close to 70 years old, but still recalls the incident. The dog actually brought the skull to her husband, and she described it at the time as still having some old, dried, brownish hair and skin/flesh adhering to it, and belonging to a young creature, perhaps 5-6 years of age. The lower jaw was still partly there. There had been a lot of "screeching" in the forest on several of the previous nights. Thinking it human, they sent it to the crime lab, and their report...the skull was not human! Next the human-looking skull with no sloping forehead and normal looking teeth, no long canines, went to the Regional primate center, but they wouldn’t talk to her...just returned the skull with a note. They sent it to the University of British Columbia, and finally had to go retrieve it themselves after two years, as UBC drug their feet and wouldn’t return it, they wouldn’t commit themselves as to what it was. The Regional Primate center was better, but said they couldn’t identify it. They did comment that the sutures on the skull resembled those of a giraffe (tho' they knew it wasn’t). Next it went to the Univ. of Calif., and after a binge of excitement about a possible new primate, they told her it was from an elk (even they could see it wasn’t), and has disappeared into the maws of that institution. There was some correspondence at the time that she'll try to find and send us, maybe we can track something down. I'll look into it if I can, but Jim Hewkin recalls trying years before to track it down unsuccessfully. Millie says she took some photos also...thinks she sent them to John Green, but not sure. Will query him about the Photos. Follow-up. Mrs. Kiggens sent a document signed by a Dr. Turner of Berkeley, CA. "...please tell him he can be proud...is ultimately Responsible for discovery new species and legal protection. Slow going partly because legal protection requires species known to science, hence named and described based upon physical material. several others and I cautious about going out on limb...process of elimination was very tedious, but skull is 'new.'" Western Union, 11/08/76.
Climate / Ecology:

Precip: ESTACADA 2SE 8.53 6.59 6.55 4.86 3.72 2.64 0.89 1.25 2.40 5.10 8.25 8.70 59.49
Temp: ESTACADA 39.53 42.80 45.80 50.02 55.55 60.63 65.51 65.35 61.01 52.30 44.94 40.43 52.12
Sun:
Snow: ESTACADA 2.4 1.0 0.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.2 0.9 5.2
Ecology: Missing"

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.p...dpost&p=363329

[LAL]

Originally Posted by SweatyYeti

Let's run with that principle........

With regards to the "Patterson film is a hoax" theory...
There's a TOTAL LACK of evidence for:
1) The suit...and 2) The guy who wore the suit.

Never seen...and never heard from.

"In some cases, lack of evidence is evidence of a lack." How true!

Fortunately for us Bigfoot enthusiasts...there is PLENTY of evidence for Bigfoot's existence.

Nice new avatar. Mine's one of my paintings, BTW. We must be ready for Spring.

So little of the evidence even gets discussed. That must give some the impression there's very little.

Here's yet another trackway report from Skamania County.

"Friday, October 18, 1974

American Yeti Expedition Reports Most Recent Bigfoot Track Find

The Skamania County Pioneer



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A meander-line of five toed tracks thought to have been made by the giant, human-like Sasquatch or "Bigfoot" was found on the edge of a logging show near the Skamania-Clark County borders Monday, Oct. 7 by an independent logging contractor and his crew, according to Robert Morgan, leader of the American Yeti Expedition. The Expedition has been searching for Bigfoot in the area since spring.

Morgan was contacted Oct 10, after much soul-searching on the part of the logger who was inclined not to report the incident. At the insistence of his crew, the logger notified Morgan.

Found were 161 actual tracks but further study produced additional imprints for a potential total of 264, Morgan said. The tracks were found along a fire trail bordering a logged area and they traversed some 350 yards.

"We couldn't believe it... we know it can't exist... but there they are so what can I say," the logger said in a discussion with Morgan.

According to Morgan, Dr. Grover Krantz of Washington State University, Pullman, a noted physical anthropologist and comparative anatomist, visited the site Saturday, Oct. 12 and examined and measured the impressions. He and Morgan also made plaster of Paris casts of seven prints.

He told Morgan that, in his opinion, if the tracks were faked the hoaxer would have to know a lot about anatomy.

Morgan pointed out that his research indicates this is the longest series of tracks ever examined by a scientist and from them new knowledge about Sasquatch gaits and movement in flat country may be determined.

Length of each footprint was 18 inches and measurements showed seven inches across the ball of the foot and 5 1/2" across the heel. Average stride was 50 inches.

Morgan pointed out other sightings have been made in the general area this summer. In July a man saw what may have been a Bigfoot several miles from the location of the most recent track findings. In mid-August a large grey creature was sighted by loggers on the upper reaches of the Washougal River.

Helping Morgan piece the puzzle together has been Elizabeth Moorman, a writer and biologist. A native of Texas, she is a graduate in biology from the University of Houston. A part of the expedition this summer, she used a passive approach in an attempt to make contact with a Sasquatch.

This involved camping by herself in remote locations in the Gifford Pinchot and eating only dried fruits and nuts and local berries, she said. She emphasized that vegetarian creatures give off less threatening odors.

Morgan added that on two separate occasions the fire-watch and loggers on the logging site had heard chirping like whistles, "...totally outside their experience."

Two other times the fire-watch had reported that the herd of cattle on the property spooked and crashed through the brush for no apparent reason.

In another incident, a large buck deer came down through the logging operation so exhausted from apparently being pursued, that a man could have easily caught it, the fire-watch said.

Morgan says the property owner has now found it impossible to find a man who will operate as a fire-watch in the valley.

The American Yeti Expedition will finish work in the Pacific Northwest Wednesday, Oct. 23, Morgan said. The expedition will return to Florida to work under the auspices of the American Anthropological Research Foundation in an attempt to find Bigfoot in the Everglades, he said.

Morgan hopes to lead another expedition into the Gifford Pinchot next spring and summer."

http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_article.asp?id=206

I was living there at the time and didn't see the paper and heard nothing about it.

[Correa Neto]

Originally Posted by LAL

And these fossils were formed in wet, acidic forests or on the high and dry mountain slopes?

LAL, one more time, fossils are preserved in sediment, not soil. You know the difference between soil and sediments, don't you?

Please re-read this post: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=139

You may have missed some points.

Originally Posted by LAL

Read the rest.

Oh, I have. Recent introduction is definitively a plausible possibility, given the absence of several other species of alpine and subalpine mammals, the long-term isolation and the presence of endemic animals and plants...

Originally Posted by LAL

The lower slopes of the Olympics are "bigfoot country". The annual precipitation at Hoh is 12-14 feet.

So what?

All the rest of "bigfoot country" shares the same geomorphological, pedological, geological and ecological characteristics? I don't think so.

Originally Posted by LAL

It helps if someone throws you in:

http://images-partners.google.com/im...es/Tollund.jpg

America's bogs should be just chock full of common animal remains, I suppose.

LAL, I think no one needed to throw mastodons in the acid waters of North American bogs...
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases...aggie.hrs.html
http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/expe...rren.html?acts

Not to mention that "bigfoot country" is large enough to have a variety of environments where remains preservation is possible.

Originally Posted by LAL

Excuse me? The Himalayas to the Appalachians is a helluva range in my book. 3-4 mya isn't shabby.

And red panda fossils were found only in North America?
Where are the bigfoot remains?


[quote=LAL;2256549]As I've mentioned, Pleistocene fossil beds aren't exactly common in areas Sasquatches are thought to inhabit. The fossils there are seem to be almost exclusively from animals of open grassland (where acid soil doesn't eat teeth). It would help to have beds and people digging in them.[quote]
Once again:
-Fossils are preserved in sediments, not soil.
-"Bigfoot country" covers a huge chunk of North America with several potential preservation sites

It seems you have not checked the Academic Google search on Pleistocene Fossil
http://scholar.google.com/scholar%3F...i%3Dsch olart
2990 hits on Pacific Northwest+Pleistocene+fossil sites at the PNW.

Originally Posted by LAL

A primate tooth was found at John Day. Alas, it was 20-22 million years old.

Was it bipedal?
Was it 2 to 3 m high?
Did it looked like the most common bigfoot renderings or Patty?
There were humans living in North America 20 Ma ago?

Evidently they did.

Originally Posted by LAL

Burial has to preceed decomposition. Even elephants get reduced to greasy black spots in a short time. It's all part of the ecosystem.

And we do have preserved remains of elephants and related species, preserved in sediments. Sediments, not soil. And burial does not needs to preceed decomposition. There are several cases of transported bones or bone fragments, please check how at
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=139

Originally Posted by LAL

Depends on how you look at it, I suppose.

Is there any way to look at it and see reliable evidence backing the speculation?

Originally Posted by LAL

Then it's hard to see how modern humans would have folk tales about them.

No, its not. The folk tales talk about hairy man-like beings living in the woods. That's all, nothing else. The original myths, whose original meanings can only be understood within the culture they came from, were interpreted by some people (who used their own cultural background and possibly bias) as representing real animals. Other people looked at this interpretation and then said "its Gigantopithecus"!

We discussed this before, didn't we? I showed a prime example of myth misinterpretation: considering the mapinguari a primate or giant sloth...

There's no more need for a real-life template for bigfoot/sasquatch myth then there are needs for real-life templates of many other myths, such as sirens, cyclops, gods, little grey men, dragons, elemental creatures, etc.

Read Campbell.

Originally Posted by LAL

It's interesting Dr. Porshnev, using Russian folklore, came up with some of the same physical characteristics, including non-opposed thumb, and behaviors Green found using NA reports (no folklore).

See above and below. He interpreted folk tales outside their original context.

And its no wonder Green found similarities, since the media provides a template for what bigfoot should look like... The witnesses are all somehow connected by TV, books, radio, internet, magazine, newspaper, all of them providing an image of what a bigfoot is supposed to look like. Its no surprise the overall details match, since the template is readily avaliable and present in USA's popular culture.

BTW, bigfeet are supposed to have non-opposing thumbs?

Originally Posted by LAL

There's quite a bit of variation in height and weight, as there is in our own species.

And?

Originally Posted by LAL

The Hoopa, for one, seem to think so.

The Hoopa or someone else who interpreted their mythical entities as a real bipedal primate?

Originally Posted by LAL

There's probably a better chance of bringing one in alive.

Is there?

Originally Posted by LAL

In fact, a creationist website positively crowed over the Wallace "revelations". That'll fix the evolutionists!

I fail to see any link, since he was not involved, as far as I know, on faking any fossil hominid footprint...

[quote=LAL;2256549]Some of us don't dismiss thousands of reports that agree in anatomical details, sounds, and behavior. They're from people who have no contact with each other and are widely separated in time and distance. They'd be considere credible on anything else. We don't dismiss the physical evidence either.

Your analogy can stop right there. [quote]
Nope, it stands because there are various shades of defenders of the "bigfoot are real" claim, with various degrees of plausibility. You would bag everyone on the same cathegory you would classify Beckjord?

The eyewitnesses' credibility on anything else is not necessarily under dispute.

Originally Posted by LAL

And just who's determining it's so unreliable?

You know the answer.
Everyone who considers the PGF may be ahoax, does not look like a real creature, the footprints might be hoaxes and misidentifications, sighting reports are unreliable...
Everyone who considers the above fails to provide propper backing to the claim "bigfeet may be real creatures". Noticed the change in the sentence?

Originally Posted by LAL

Oh, really? Reputable scientists are digging for Sasquatch teeth in museum drawers?

An I am the one who distorts other people's words...

Reputable scientists, undergratuate and graduate students quite often dug the museum drawers for specimens that may have been mistaken or not propperly studied. "Hmmm... This pecari tooth seems quite like a primate tooth..."

Originally Posted by LAL

IYHO. I'm still looking for the link (it was on BFF recently, but I can't find the thread), but it's a BFRO report so I didn't think you'd read it anyway.

Find the link if you can, please.

And please also refrain from making some inferences on what I would or not do.

Originally Posted by LAL

Remember the purported Yeti finger smuggled to the British Museum in Gloria Stewart's lingerie case?

And you take that seriously?

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by LAL

So little of the evidence even gets discussed. That must give some the impression there's very little.

Oh my. There's a lot of evidence which gets discussed a lot. That's not helping the quality of evidence.

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by LAL

Luring seems to offer some promise,...

How so?

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by RayG

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAL
It's illegal to remove, own, or ship more than a spoonful of Mt. St. Helens volcanic ash from the GP.

Then how did Michael McDowell get almost 5 tons of the stuff?

Quote:

Quote:
I have about five tons of ash from Mt. St. Helens 1980 eruption.

Maybe the mountain "delivered" it to his yard, like my friends who lived in Yakima at the time.

It was several inches deep at his house.

[LAL]

<edit>

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huntster
I like his sense of humor as well as his outlook.

Yeah, well I like eating rotten beans and fermented squid guts and I even like you so there's no accounting for taste, hey Hunt?

Yuck.

Those meals sound pretty disgusting, but liking the Huntster?

You're sick...........

[LAL]

Originally Posted by Correa Neto

LAL, one more time, fossils are preserved in sediment, not soil. You know the difference between soil and sediments, don't you?

Yes. One more time, teeth and bones don't tend to last long enough in wet, acidic soils to be buried in sediment, if any happens to be around.

Again:

"Burial is an essential part of the process of fossilization. Preservation of a skeleton is most likely to occur if burial occurs soon after death. Such an event is very rare. Terrestrial organisms usually fall to the ground at death. There they may be subject to a range of processes:

- scavenging by carrion eaters such hyenas and vultures.

- decay of soft tissue as decomposing fungi and bacteria operate.

- scattering and fragmentation of bones by trampling animals and wind.

- abrasion by wind-blown sand or in-stream transport.

- dehydration and splitting in the sun.

- chemical and physical weathering on and in the soil.

Decay within the soil is largely controlled by soil acidity: in wet acid soils containing air, bone dissolves completely; in wet alkaline soils bone is preserved; in dry alkaline soils, bone protein is lost but a weakened fossil is preserved; in wet, airless, acid soil (such as peat) soft tissue may be preserved with bone. A result of such processes is that the great majority of animals which fall on land are not preserved in the fossil record. The best chances of preservation occur when an animal falls into a fissure or cave, is drowned and sinks to the bed of a lake, sinks into a swamp, is swept by a flood into a swamp or lake, is buried in a cool volcanic ash shower, or is overtaken by some other rapid process which preserves the body intact and buries it quickly. The great majority of hominid and early human remains have been found in cave deposits, river terrace deposits, lake beds and in down-faulted troughs (such as East African Rift Valleys) which have been infilled by sediment and volcanic ash."

http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/...ossilation.htm

Quote:

Please re-read this post: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=139

You may have missed some points.

I don't think so. Fossilization is rare. Finding fossils is extremely chancey.

Quote:

Oh, I have. Recent introduction is definitively a plausible possibility, given the absence of several other species of alpine and subalpine mammals, the long-term isolation and the presence of endemic animals and plants...

Shoot 'em.

Quote:

So what?

The two reasons stated didn't impress you at all? Sasquatches aren't creatures of the windswept, barren Olympics anyway.

Quote:

All the rest of "bigfoot country" shares the same geomorphological, pedological, geological and ecological characteristics? I don't think so.

Just where do yo think they live? Deserts? Cornfields? Central Park?

There's a correlation with rainfall. Areas with over 20" annually tend to be forested and/or swampy.

Quote:

LAL, I think no one needed to throw mastodons in the acid waters of North American bogs...
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases...aggie.hrs.html
http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/expe...rren.html?acts.

Don't forget the La Brea tar pits.

Quote:

Not to mention that "bigfoot country" is large enough to have a variety of environments where remains preservation is possible.

Possible, not probable. You seem to be locating them where they'll fit your argument.

Quote:

And red panda fossils were found only in North America?

I was using that as an example of an animal that had huge distribution, on two continents, over millions of years, but apparently left only a very sparce fossil record in NA.

Quote:

Where are the bigfoot remains?

Where one died recently. Where are the rest of the Red Panda remains?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAL

As I've mentioned, Pleistocene fossil beds aren't exactly common in areas Sasquatches are thought to inhabit. The fossils there are seem to be almost exclusively from animals of open grassland (where acid soil doesn't eat teeth). It would help to have beds and people digging in them.

Once again:
-Fossils are preserved in sediments, not soil.
-"Bigfoot country" covers a huge chunk of North America with several potential preservation sites

It seems you have not checked the Academic Google search on Pleistocene Fossil
http://scholar.google.com/scholar%3F...i%3Dsch olart
2990 hits on Pacific Northwest+Pleistocene+fossil sites at the PNW.

And most of the preservation is of animals that weren't forest dwellers. How many actual beds closer to the PNW than Idaho did we find last time?

Quote:

Was it bipedal?

Could be.

Quote:

Was it 2 to 3 m high?

10', according to Ciochon.

Quote:

Did it looked like the most common bigfoot renderings or Patty?

See below and change the facial hair a little.

Quote:

There were humans living in North America 20 Ma ago?

All the coastal tribes have them in their traditions. Evidently they're not describing an Asian species that lived 300,000 years ago. If they became extinct then how would they be in anyone's tradition?

Quote:

Evidently they did.

And we do have preserved remains of elephants and related species, preserved in sediments. Sediments, not soil. And burial does not needs to preceed decomposition. There are several cases of transported bones or bone fragments, please check how at
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=139

Maybe we'll get lucky and find a transported bone fragment in a cave somewhere before it gets buried.

Quote:

Is there any way to look at it and see reliable evidence backing the speculation?

Maybe Kathy Strain will pay your way to Seattle.

Quote:

No, its not. The folk tales talk about hairy man-like beings living in the woods. That's all, nothing else. The original myths, whose original meanings can only be understood within the culture they came from, were interpreted by some people (who used their own cultural background and possibly bias) as representing real animals. Other people looked at this interpretation and then said "its Gigantopithecus"!

You seem so sure. Why did people on two different continents come up with non-opposed thumbs?

One of Kathy Strain's projects (she's a state's archaeologist, BTW) is to get the traditions and their interpretations directly from the native people.

Quote:

We discussed this before, didn't we? I showed a prime example of myth misinterpretation: considering the mapinguari a primate or giant sloth...

Yes. Let's please not go through that again.

Quote:

There's no more need for a real-life template for bigfoot/sasquatch myth then there are needs for real-life templates of many other myths, such as sirens, cyclops, gods, little grey men, dragons, elemental creatures, etc.

Fairies, leprechauns, werewolves............There are, however, real ravens, real coyotes, and real bears. They talk in the legends. That doesn't make them any less real.

Quote:

Read Campbell.

I've tried twice to watch his series on DVD and was so bored I couldn't get through the first installment. Not my thing.

What's mythlike about "My daughter and I saw one cross the road and she said, "WTF was that?"

Quote:

See above and below. He interpreted folk tales outside their original context.

You've read his paper?

Quote:

And its no wonder Green found similarities, since the media provides a template for what bigfoot should look like... The witnesses are all somehow connected by TV, books, radio, internet, magazine, newspaper, all of them providing an image of what a bigfoot is supposed to look like. Its no surprise the overall details match, since the template is readily avaliable and present in USA's popular culture.

Do you have any idea how far back the stories go? How would Mrs.Chapman, who lived in a cabin in Canada, with no TV, Internet, radio, etc., manage to make up an animal that matches an unwritten description from the southeastern US in 1835?

Green also noted a number of disimilarities, such as domestication.

Quote:

BTW, bigfeet are supposed to have non-opposing thumbs?

Yep. There are a couple of handprints that seem to confirm that, as well as witness descriptions.

Quote:

And?


The Hoopa or someone else who interpreted their mythical entities as a real bipedal primate?

I've posted the story of Hairy Man. That's Hoopa.

Quote:

Is there?

Yep. Spotting an 8' creature should be easier than spotting a tooth on the forest floor.

Quote:

I fail to see any link, since he was not involved, as far as I know, on faking any fossil hominid footprint....

The claim was that evolutionists were trying to pass off Bigfoot as a missing link. It's all a hoax, therefore evolution didn't happen.

I debated creationism vs. evolution for two years on AOL. I deleted my Fundy Fun folder, but I'll see if I can find the site again. It's a hoot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAL

Some of us don't dismiss thousands of reports that agree in anatomical details, sounds, and behavior. They're from people who have no contact with each other and are widely separated in time and distance. They'd be considered credible on anything else. We don't dismiss the physical evidence either.

Your analogy can stop right there.

Quote:

Nope, it stands because there are various shades of defenders of the "bigfoot are real" claim, with various degrees of plausibility. You would bag everyone on the same cathegory you would classify Beckjord?

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

http://www.icr.org/

http://www.harunyahya.com/

<snipped because I'm tired of this s***>

Find the link if you can, please.

I posted the report above. The link doesn't work.

Quote:

And please also refrain from making some inferences on what I would or not do.

Well, apparently you didn't read it. Wasn't that what I inferred?

Quote:

And you take that seriously?

It's a good story. Peter Byrne tells it on Sasquatch Odyssey. Ever see it? Since he's the one responsible, he's either lying or telling the truth. Now which would sceptics choose?

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by Huntster

Yuck.

Those meals sound pretty disgusting, but liking the Huntster?

You're sick...........

So how does taste, grampa?

[LAL]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

How so?

You might want to check out what some of the groups are doing.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally Posted by LAL

....................

Morgan hopes to lead another expedition into the Gifford Pinchot next spring and summer."

http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_article.asp?id=206

I was living there at the time and didn't see the paper and heard nothing about it.

So, How did that ' another ' expedition turn out ..


My guess is, they didn't fin Sas...


Oh wait... 1974 ?

What a cozy little exchange between you and SweatyFoot about all the wonderfull evidence ....

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally Posted by LAL

..............

It's a good story ..........

Aren't they all ...