Derren Brown new TV show.

Azrael 5 · 29th December 2006, 03:30 PM

Is on Channel 4 now in UK! Repeated a couple of times on E4 next few days for those who didn't know it was on.

Then we can all worship at the feet of Derren.

firecoins · 29th December 2006, 04:15 PM

I really enjoy his stuff. Wish he was on American TV!

Big Les · 29th December 2006, 04:35 PM

The self-expose/sum-up at the end was great, using video clips of the various suggested words and numbers. I only conciously spotted and remembered the incredibly blatant "influential" myself, waiting for it to crop up later.

The nail up the nose wasn't up to blockhead standards IMO, but still made me wince!

Azrael 5 · 30th December 2006, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by Big Les

The self-expose/sum-up at the end was great, using video clips of the various suggested words and numbers. I only conciously spotted and remembered the incredibly blatant "influential" myself, waiting for it to crop up later.

The nail up the nose wasn't up to blockhead standards IMO, but still made me wince!

As a "magician" myself I can't decide wether he actually influenced tehse people or not.I tend to think "not" as it's a huge gamble to rely on suggestion alone.But as when I saw him live I've no idea how the newspaper trick works-in whole at least.

firecoins · 30th December 2006, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

As a "magician" myself I can't decide wether he actually influenced tehse people or not.I tend to think "not" as it's a huge gamble to rely on suggestion alone.But as when I saw him live I've no idea how the newspaper trick works-in whole at least.

Have you read Pure Effect? I think Brown uses alot of suggestion in his work.

andyandy · 30th December 2006, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

As a "magician" myself I can't decide wether he actually influenced tehse people or not.I tend to think "not" as it's a huge gamble to rely on suggestion alone.But as when I saw him live I've no idea how the newspaper trick works-in whole at least.

i was wondering that myself....not that i'm a proper magician or anything

some bits such as the forcing of choosing page 14 and the selection of the piece of paper with "influential" on i would have thought would have worked without the previous subliminal cues -
i'm sure you could do some statistical research to show that in a situation where an entire auditorium of people is waiting on your choice (in the case of the newspaper headline) that you would be self conscious enough to not want to keep people waiting too long, whilst not wishing to choose the first couple of headlines, thus "spoiling" the drama....i also noticed he tapped the paper three times quite loudly before reading the third article - quite a blatant cue to choose it (i watched derren brown previously explaining using similar techniques to direct someone to choosing a particular card....)
Put all this together, I'd expect the third article would be chosen in most occasions regardless of previous subliminal spookiness....

equally in the choosing of the number of pieces to count off - that's just a rather simple magician's trick - as long as you know where the piece is that you want to be chosen is, you can manipulate which pieces you count to ensure they end up with the requied one...

but how to direct someone in the audience to choose p14 over the other 3 possible sides, and then to drop half the torn up page does seem rather a lot to leave to chance....
maybe the back of page 14 was not "attractive" - say an advert or the financial section....but even so it's impressive...

after watching derren brown's The Heist, he does seem to have a remarkable ability to control people's actions

andyandy · 30th December 2006, 01:37 PM

this is the "black ball/white ball trick" from the show - the daily mail subliminal hint is 3mins 25 ....

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

"choose, daily, mail..."

Azrael 5 · 30th December 2006, 04:23 PM

Without revealing secrets-it is obvious after re-watching,page 14 wasn't forced or influenced.Derren read ads from one paper over different pages until girl said stop.She didn't know what page the ads were on.So the "14" suggestion was bluff.

Yes I've read Pure Effect,but suggetsion on a small scale is one thing to do it as Derren cheekily claims in the end of show VT is another!
I think I have it figured out now mostly.The choosing of the actual word on a piece of paper is still foxing me though.

andyandy · 30th December 2006, 06:49 PM

stupid [yt] tags

this is the correct link....

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KveY44NCNOM

andyandy · 30th December 2006, 06:50 PM

double post

tkingdoll · 30th December 2006, 07:43 PM

I have it on very good authority that he employs some very mundane trickery that would leave his most rabid NLP-loving fans in tears of disappointment. Oh well, it makes for good TV.

andyandy · 30th December 2006, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

I have it on very good authority that he employs some very mundane trickery that would leave his most rabid NLP-loving fans in tears of disappointment. Oh well, it makes for good TV.

it's interesting isn't it? it's almost as if we're more impressed with "science" than "magic" now - do a magic trick - and no matter how good it is, it's just a trick - but explain how it wasn't actually a trick at all - that it was mind-control - and it becomes all the more impressive....

derren seems to blur the line really well between magic tricks and non-tricks.....

this youtube clip is of derren using a simple trick "out of this world" to imply (or show how succeptible people are to the suggestion of) supernaturality of image....

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

edit.
mod note. i don't ever post in this section so i don't know what precisely constitutes "revealing magic secrets" - if naming tricks does then feel free to edit that bit....

firecoins · 30th December 2006, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

I have it on very good authority that he employs some very mundane trickery that would leave his most rabid NLP-loving fans in tears of disappointment. Oh well, it makes for good TV.

I am not authority enough. The man is a magician.

Darat · 31st December 2006, 05:14 AM

I do find it a little bit amusing that some of his fans seem to have forgotten what he says about his tricks http://www.derrenbrown.co.uk/

"He doesn't claim to be a mind-reader, instead he describes his craft as a mixture of magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship."

Once the camera is rolling or he is being interviewed as "Darren Brown the entertainer" he is playing a part. In other words what magicians have always done.

tkingdoll · 31st December 2006, 07:19 AM

At TAM4, Penn was saying that magicians don't reveal their methods for two reasons. One, to keep them safe, and two, because many of them are so utterly simple, mundane and downright ugly, the audience would either not believe it or just be turned off magic forever.

This is particularly true for Derren Brown, although I really admire his skill and the packaging he's woven around his tricks. But by golly, some folk would be horrified if they knew their favourite psychology stunts are aided by hidden cameras and microphones. So much so, that I doubt they'd believe it.

But I think that adds to his act, not takes away. Magic is all about presentation, who cares what the mechanics are?

brodski · 31st December 2006, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

I have it on very good authority that he employs some very mundane trickery that would leave his most rabid NLP-loving fans in tears of disappointment. Oh well, it makes for good TV.

Yes, one of my friends appeared on one of his TV shows when she was a psychology student. She made some very revealing observations.

Azrael 5 · 31st December 2006, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by brodski

Yes, one of my friends appeared on one of his TV shows when she was a psychology student. She made some very revealing observations.

Do tell.

Big Les · 31st December 2006, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

Do tell.

Yes, and feel free to PM one or more of us if you'd rather not reply on the thread.

I'm not too surprised to hear that his explanation was not in fact the method he used; like all magicians you can't trust him as far as you could throw him. He muddies the waters further these days with his apparent "debunking" stance and associated demonstrations.

brodski · 31st December 2006, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

Do tell.

Originally Posted by Big Les

Yes, and feel free to PM one or more of us if you'd rather not reply on the thread.

I'm not too surprised to hear that his explanation was not in fact the method he used; like all magicians you can't trust him as far as you could throw him. He muddies the waters further these days with his apparent "debunking" stance and associated demonstrations.

PM sent.

Azrael 5 · 31st December 2006, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Big Les

Yes, and feel free to PM one or more of us if you'd rather not reply on the thread.

I'm not too surprised to hear that his explanation was not in fact the method he used; like all magicians you can't trust him as far as you could throw him. He muddies the waters further these days with his apparent "debunking" stance and associated demonstrations.

Have you seen the analysis from Seance Big Les? I dont want to bash Derren,but some of his claims of not using stooges is rather dubious.

It doesn't matter if you haven't actually seen Seance but it was part of a thread on the old forum.Anyway here it is thanks to Darat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhaUpOkShOQ

2.86 seconds that I cannot figure out.

Mr Clingford · 1st January 2007, 05:14 AM

I'm not a magician but freediving is a hobby of mine and therefore I was very interested in his walking on broken glass stunt. Presumably the putting the bag over the head induces a diving reflex with vasconstriction of the extremities. The lack of pulse in the wrist shows that the bloodflow has been reduced to the hands and feet and with less blood in them it is safer to walk on the glass. Of course the glass may not be normal glass (despite what he said) and as the glass gives under his weight it might not be so dangerous to walk on it anyway?

Thoughts?

Darat · 1st January 2007, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Clingford

I'm not a magician but freediving is a hobby of mine and therefore I was very interested in his walking on broken glass stunt. Presumably the putting the bag over the head induces a diving reflex with vasconstriction of the extremities. The lack of pulse in the wrist shows that the bloodflow has been reduced to the hands and feet and with less blood in them it is safer to walk on the glass. Of course the glass may not be normal glass (despite what he said) and as the glass gives under his weight it might not be so dangerous to walk on it anyway?

Thoughts?

All of that is just showmanship. You can walk on a carpet of broken glass - that has been carefully swept to ensure the height of the shards and peices are all the same - with very little fear of cutting your feet since the pressure is even distributed and there is nothing sticking up above the level of the glass height. What this trick uses is our experience that broken glass cuts - it does when forced into the skin.

It's rather like firewalking - there is nothing at all mysterious to doing that apart from it is "counter intuitive".

Azrael 5 · 1st January 2007, 06:47 AM

...and the pulse stopping is a trick and the plastic bag over the head is just dumb."The Great Prestoni" never did that!!

The newspaper prediction on the other hand hurts my brain.

andyandy · 1st January 2007, 08:07 AM

[derail]
is there any reason that there's so few threads in conjourer's corner? I've never ventured in here before, and it would be nice to read past ones - but the threads page stops on page 1.....do i need to show my magic circle membership to get higher level access?

[/derail]

PenguinWarrior · 1st January 2007, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by andyandy

[derail]
is there any reason that there's so few threads in conjourer's corner? I've never ventured in here before, and it would be nice to read past ones - but the threads page stops on page 1.....do i need to show my magic circle membership to get higher level access?

[/derail]

I've got a couple of theories. The first is that magic is a field that a reasonably small percentage of the population is interested in, and that applies to skeptics as much as it does the general population.

The second is that the only thing worth talking about in magic is how the tricks are done, and that is not allowed here. This reduces conversation to the level of "Magician/Trick X was good wasn't he/she/it?" "Yes, I quite enjoyed him/her/it" "Nah, he/she/it was boring", and a little bit of coded language by those trying to get around the rules. I think this is incredibly stupid, personally, but the whole "Thou shalt not reveal the secrets, verily" is sadly rather ingrained in the collective psyche of magicians, despite the fact that it is, in my opinion, half the fun finding out exactly how the git did it. Since this is a site based on an organisation run by a magician, it is therefore not surprising that this rule is enforced, despite the fact that it basically cripples the level of discourse. Oh, well.

I recognise that people feel differently about the whole revealing of secrets thing, but they are not the type of people who would come here anyway. I love KNOWING. Hell, figuring out the secrets behind tricks/deception/mysteries is what being a skeptic is largely about. And it's not as if it ruins the trick. The solution of the pulse slowing/stopping trick for example is beatifully simple, despite the fact that the trick itself seems utterly baffling at first. Baffled, then enlightened, that's what magic should be about.

That's why I never post here, anyhow. Or come here, really. I only popped in to see if there was any discussion of Derren Brown's new show. And now I depart, in a puff of smoke.

*Puff*

Mr Clingford · 1st January 2007, 10:27 AM

I don't remember seeing the glass being raked - is that hidden at some point from the theatre audience too?

This pulse thing - is it a trick of physiology or something that can't be revealed type thing?

I couldn't remember that "The Great Prestoni" name which annoyed me - but having got it, thanks Azrael 5, I googled it and found it to come from a Dick Van Dyke show!

Azrael 5 · 1st January 2007, 10:52 AM

The pulse stop is physiology,but also a magic trick-can't see it having any other use.So no revealing online.

DJM · 1st January 2007, 02:17 PM

Does anyone have any clue about the newspapers part? It looked like there were so many different free choises. It looks just impossible, especially if the word is indeed from a real paper! I've never seen anything like this.

tkingdoll · 1st January 2007, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Clingford

I don't remember seeing the glass being raked - is that hidden at some point from the theatre audience too?

This pulse thing - is it a trick of physiology or something that can't be revealed type thing?

I couldn't remember that "The Great Prestoni" name which annoyed me - but having got it, thanks Azrael 5, I googled it and found it to come from a Dick Van Dyke show!

Randi himself has revealed how the pulse trick is done, I've seen the video online but can't find the link - it's the Carlos documentary. I'm sure someone posted a link in the forum a few months ago, it's there somewhere but I checked the links section and can't find it so it must be in a thread. Worth a watch!

firecoins · 1st January 2007, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

Randi himself has revealed how the pulse trick is done, I've seen the video fonline but can't find the link - it's the Carlos documentary. I'm sure someone posted a link in the forum a few months ago, it's there somewhere but I checked the links section and can't find it so it must be in a thread. Worth a watch!

I know how the pulse effect is done. Its quite simple but can be played like a miracle by an expert showman.

tkingdoll · 1st January 2007, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by firecoins

I know how the pulse effect is done. Its quite simple but can be played like a miracle by an expert showman.

What I love about that trick is how simple it is. When I saw the vid I realised I would never, ever have thought of that.

Here's an interesting thought: if we're not allowed to reveal how tricks are done, how would we debunk someone who was claiming Derren could really read minds?

firecoins · 1st January 2007, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

Here's an interesting thought: if we're not allowed to reveal how tricks are done, how would we debunk someone who was claiming Derren could really read minds?

From the front page of Derren's website

Quote:

Derren Brown is a unique force in the world of illusion - he can seemingly predict and control human behaviour.
He doesn't claim to be a mind-reader, instead he describes his craft as a mixture of magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship.
Whatever you choose to call it, his unparalleled performances amaze and unsettle all those who watch him. This is a powerful and provocative form of entertainment, unlikely to be imitated for a long while.

From the description of the Devil's Picturbook DVDs Derren sells on the magician's side of his website.

Quote:

For ten years Derren was a professional close-up magician before making the move to perform only mind-reading. It was with his card-magic that he made a name for himself, and this tape contains all of that world-class card repertoire. The viewer is then taken into examples and explanations of his unique brand of direct mind-reading with cards which has gone some way towards revolutionising mentalism for the new Millennium.

The fact that Derren has a magician's side of his website should be more than enough proof. Derren creates the illusion of mindreading.

tkingdoll · 1st January 2007, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by firecoins

Derren has published some of his effects.

Well, Randi has revealed the pulse trick on TV, but I still can't say how it's done in here. Hmm...but could I do it in another thread? A true believer probably wouldn't state their beliefs in this section of the forum anyway.

firecoins · 1st January 2007, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

Well, Randi has revealed the pulse trick on TV, but I still can't say how it's done in here. Hmm...but could I do it in another thread? A true believer probably wouldn't state their beliefs in this section of the forum anyway.

This conjurer's section so there is no need to reveal the secret. If your dealing with someone who believes Derren is for real...show Derren's website. Derren is not claiming to be real. He claims to be doing illusions.

tkingdoll · 1st January 2007, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by firecoins

This conjurer's section so there is no need to reveal the secret. If your dealing with someone who believes Derren is for real...show Derren's website. Derren is not claiming to be real. He claims to be doing illusions.

See, there's the problem. Lots of people are rabid fans and read his website all the time, and they still believe he has magic powers.

I saw his live show a few years ago and he went to such great pains to explain how spiritualism isn't real. He then did a trick in which he got a woman to contact his 'dead' friend, and in the lobby afterwards stupid middle-aged women were gasping over how he was talking to the dead. Unless you could actually tell/show them how it was done, there's no way "it's just a trick" would convince them.

Azrael 5 · 1st January 2007, 04:45 PM

If they don't believe Derren when he says it's fake,and he's the one doing it,then what hope is there for them?

tkingdoll · 1st January 2007, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

If they don't believe Derren when he says it's fake,and he's the one doing it,then what hope is there for them?

The problem is often the claim that "this is a trick" rather than "this is a trick and here's how it's done". In a perverse way, they are actually asking for evidence. Bit like skeptics!

firecoins · 1st January 2007, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

The problem is often the claim that "this is a trick" rather than "this is a trick and here's how it's done". In a perverse way, they are actually asking for evidence. Bit like skeptics!

Well its simple. Perform the effect yourself! Don't tell the secret because these people are idiots. If even Derren says its fake and they don't believe him than they are idiots.

tkingdoll · 1st January 2007, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by firecoins

Well its simple. Perform the effect yourself! Don't tell the secret because these people are idiots. If even Derren says its fake and they don't believe him than they are idiots.

Millions of people qualify as idiots, but that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile educating them. It's not always as simple as "be rational or be stupid", for many people it's a slow process, particularly those who have never been exposed to critical thinking in any way.

It's problematic to say "I want you to believe this is a trick but I cannot give you the evidence that it is". And yet we complain when people think it's real.

Darat · 2nd January 2007, 03:52 AM

As Admin:

Randi imposed the "no revealing tricks" conditions on his Forum a long time ago and it did raise some hackles back then and accusations that he was being hypocritical. But to be be blunt we just have to live with it.

The issue regarding needing to explain a trick to help explain to someone why their conclusion was in error has come up a few times in the past (but I've not seen it for a couple of years) - Members just pointed to other sites and other forums where tricks are explained rather then post the actual trick here. Have to add I never saw a trick being explained changed anyone's belief that a certain effect could be explained without any call to supernatural powers or phenomena...

Also there is a bit if a grey area, for example if Randi has explained a trick in a SWIFT article I'd let someone post that here.

29th December 2006, 03:30 PM	#1
Azrael 5 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Yorkshire,Uk Posts: 4,171	Derren Brown new TV show. Is on Channel 4 now in UK! Repeated a couple of times on E4 next few days for those who didn't know it was on. Then we can all worship at the feet of Derren.
	__________________ "I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown Photography here

29th December 2006, 04:15 PM	#2
firecoins Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nyack, NY Posts: 3,054	I really enjoy his stuff. Wish he was on American TV!
	__________________ NY Paramedic, skeptic, 9/11/01 Reality-ist. I am both right wing nut and left wing lunatic. Deal with it.

29th December 2006, 04:35 PM	#3
Big Les Not so much a medium as a large Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,644	The self-expose/sum-up at the end was great, using video clips of the various suggested words and numbers. I only conciously spotted and remembered the incredibly blatant "influential" myself, waiting for it to crop up later. The nail up the nose wasn't up to blockhead standards IMO, but still made me wince!
	__________________ "One of the fundamental freedoms is to write what you like, including nonsense: another, which I am exercising, is to denounce it." -Robert Raikes bshistorian.wordpress.com

30th December 2006, 05:58 AM	#4
Azrael 5 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Yorkshire,Uk Posts: 4,171	Originally Posted by Big Les The self-expose/sum-up at the end was great, using video clips of the various suggested words and numbers. I only conciously spotted and remembered the incredibly blatant "influential" myself, waiting for it to crop up later. The nail up the nose wasn't up to blockhead standards IMO, but still made me wince! As a "magician" myself I can't decide wether he actually influenced tehse people or not.I tend to think "not" as it's a huge gamble to rely on suggestion alone.But as when I saw him live I've no idea how the newspaper trick works-in whole at least.
	__________________ "I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown Photography here

30th December 2006, 12:47 PM	#5
firecoins Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nyack, NY Posts: 3,054	Originally Posted by Azrael 5 As a "magician" myself I can't decide wether he actually influenced tehse people or not.I tend to think "not" as it's a huge gamble to rely on suggestion alone.But as when I saw him live I've no idea how the newspaper trick works-in whole at least. Have you read Pure Effect? I think Brown uses alot of suggestion in his work.
	__________________ NY Paramedic, skeptic, 9/11/01 Reality-ist. I am both right wing nut and left wing lunatic. Deal with it.

30th December 2006, 01:09 PM	#6
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 5,804	Originally Posted by Azrael 5 As a "magician" myself I can't decide wether he actually influenced tehse people or not.I tend to think "not" as it's a huge gamble to rely on suggestion alone.But as when I saw him live I've no idea how the newspaper trick works-in whole at least. i was wondering that myself....not that i'm a proper magician or anything some bits such as the forcing of choosing page 14 and the selection of the piece of paper with "influential" on i would have thought would have worked without the previous subliminal cues - i'm sure you could do some statistical research to show that in a situation where an entire auditorium of people is waiting on your choice (in the case of the newspaper headline) that you would be self conscious enough to not want to keep people waiting too long, whilst not wishing to choose the first couple of headlines, thus "spoiling" the drama....i also noticed he tapped the paper three times quite loudly before reading the third article - quite a blatant cue to choose it (i watched derren brown previously explaining using similar techniques to direct someone to choosing a particular card....) Put all this together, I'd expect the third article would be chosen in most occasions regardless of previous subliminal spookiness.... equally in the choosing of the number of pieces to count off - that's just a rather simple magician's trick - as long as you know where the piece is that you want to be chosen is, you can manipulate which pieces you count to ensure they end up with the requied one... but how to direct someone in the audience to choose p14 over the other 3 possible sides, and then to drop half the torn up page does seem rather a lot to leave to chance.... maybe the back of page 14 was not "attractive" - say an advert or the financial section....but even so it's impressive... after watching derren brown's The Heist, he does seem to have a remarkable ability to control people's actions
	Last edited by andyandy; 30th December 2006 at 01:16 PM.

30th December 2006, 04:23 PM	#8
Azrael 5 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Yorkshire,Uk Posts: 4,171	Without revealing secrets-it is obvious after re-watching,page 14 wasn't forced or influenced.Derren read ads from one paper over different pages until girl said stop.She didn't know what page the ads were on.So the "14" suggestion was bluff. Yes I've read Pure Effect,but suggetsion on a small scale is one thing to do it as Derren cheekily claims in the end of show VT is another! I think I have it figured out now mostly.The choosing of the actual word on a piece of paper is still foxing me though.
	__________________ "I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown Photography here

30th December 2006, 06:50 PM	#10
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 5,804	double post

30th December 2006, 07:43 PM	#11
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,450	I have it on very good authority that he employs some very mundane trickery that would leave his most rabid NLP-loving fans in tears of disappointment. Oh well, it makes for good TV.
	__________________ TAM London Oct 3rd and 4th 2009 www.tamlondon.org www.spoonscience.com The World Record Spoon Bend from TAM6 - for all benders, pushers and dealers

30th December 2006, 11:25 PM	#13
firecoins Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nyack, NY Posts: 3,054	Originally Posted by tkingdoll I have it on very good authority that he employs some very mundane trickery that would leave his most rabid NLP-loving fans in tears of disappointment. Oh well, it makes for good TV. I am not authority enough. The man is a magician.
	__________________ NY Paramedic, skeptic, 9/11/01 Reality-ist. I am both right wing nut and left wing lunatic. Deal with it.

31st December 2006, 05:14 AM	#14
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 45,885	I do find it a little bit amusing that some of his fans seem to have forgotten what he says about his tricks http://www.derrenbrown.co.uk/ "He doesn't claim to be a mind-reader, instead he describes his craft as a mixture of magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship." Once the camera is rolling or he is being interviewed as "Darren Brown the entertainer" he is playing a part. In other words what magicians have always done.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

31st December 2006, 07:19 AM	#15
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,450	At TAM4, Penn was saying that magicians don't reveal their methods for two reasons. One, to keep them safe, and two, because many of them are so utterly simple, mundane and downright ugly, the audience would either not believe it or just be turned off magic forever. This is particularly true for Derren Brown, although I really admire his skill and the packaging he's woven around his tricks. But by golly, some folk would be horrified if they knew their favourite psychology stunts are aided by hidden cameras and microphones. So much so, that I doubt they'd believe it. But I think that adds to his act, not takes away. Magic is all about presentation, who cares what the mechanics are?
	__________________ TAM London Oct 3rd and 4th 2009 www.tamlondon.org www.spoonscience.com The World Record Spoon Bend from TAM6 - for all benders, pushers and dealers

31st December 2006, 07:23 AM	#16
brodski faceless bureaucrat Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: the three Chiltern Hundreds of Stoke, Desborough and Burnham Posts: 11,635	Originally Posted by tkingdoll I have it on very good authority that he employs some very mundane trickery that would leave his most rabid NLP-loving fans in tears of disappointment. Oh well, it makes for good TV. Yes, one of my friends appeared on one of his TV shows when she was a psychology student. She made some very revealing observations.
	__________________ ...and the story does suggest a part 2 to the Turing Test: 1. can machines behave like humans? 2. can we?

31st December 2006, 07:29 AM	#17
Azrael 5 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Yorkshire,Uk Posts: 4,171	Originally Posted by brodski Yes, one of my friends appeared on one of his TV shows when she was a psychology student. She made some very revealing observations. Do tell.
	__________________ "I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown Photography here

31st December 2006, 03:19 PM	#18
Big Les Not so much a medium as a large Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,644	Originally Posted by Azrael 5 Do tell. Yes, and feel free to PM one or more of us if you'd rather not reply on the thread. I'm not too surprised to hear that his explanation was not in fact the method he used; like all magicians you can't trust him as far as you could throw him. He muddies the waters further these days with his apparent "debunking" stance and associated demonstrations.
	__________________ "One of the fundamental freedoms is to write what you like, including nonsense: another, which I am exercising, is to denounce it." -Robert Raikes bshistorian.wordpress.com

31st December 2006, 04:12 PM	#19
brodski faceless bureaucrat Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: the three Chiltern Hundreds of Stoke, Desborough and Burnham Posts: 11,635	Originally Posted by Azrael 5 Do tell. Originally Posted by Big Les Yes, and feel free to PM one or more of us if you'd rather not reply on the thread. I'm not too surprised to hear that his explanation was not in fact the method he used; like all magicians you can't trust him as far as you could throw him. He muddies the waters further these days with his apparent "debunking" stance and associated demonstrations. PM sent.
	__________________ ...and the story does suggest a part 2 to the Turing Test: 1. can machines behave like humans? 2. can we?

31st December 2006, 06:08 PM	#20
Azrael 5 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Yorkshire,Uk Posts: 4,171	Originally Posted by Big Les Yes, and feel free to PM one or more of us if you'd rather not reply on the thread. I'm not too surprised to hear that his explanation was not in fact the method he used; like all magicians you can't trust him as far as you could throw him. He muddies the waters further these days with his apparent "debunking" stance and associated demonstrations. Have you seen the analysis from Seance Big Les? I dont want to bash Derren,but some of his claims of not using stooges is rather dubious. It doesn't matter if you haven't actually seen Seance but it was part of a thread on the old forum.Anyway here it is thanks to Darat. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhaUpOkShOQ 2.86 seconds that I cannot figure out.
	__________________ "I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown Photography here Last edited by Azrael 5; 31st December 2006 at 06:11 PM.

1st January 2007, 05:14 AM	#21
Mr Clingford Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: UK Posts: 1,310	I'm not a magician but freediving is a hobby of mine and therefore I was very interested in his walking on broken glass stunt. Presumably the putting the bag over the head induces a diving reflex with vasconstriction of the extremities. The lack of pulse in the wrist shows that the bloodflow has been reduced to the hands and feet and with less blood in them it is safer to walk on the glass. Of course the glass may not be normal glass (despite what he said) and as the glass gives under his weight it might not be so dangerous to walk on it anyway? Thoughts?
	__________________ God is my copilot. But we crashed into a mountain and I had to eat him.

1st January 2007, 05:21 AM	#22
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 45,885	Originally Posted by Mr Clingford I'm not a magician but freediving is a hobby of mine and therefore I was very interested in his walking on broken glass stunt. Presumably the putting the bag over the head induces a diving reflex with vasconstriction of the extremities. The lack of pulse in the wrist shows that the bloodflow has been reduced to the hands and feet and with less blood in them it is safer to walk on the glass. Of course the glass may not be normal glass (despite what he said) and as the glass gives under his weight it might not be so dangerous to walk on it anyway? Thoughts? All of that is just showmanship. You can walk on a carpet of broken glass - that has been carefully swept to ensure the height of the shards and peices are all the same - with very little fear of cutting your feet since the pressure is even distributed and there is nothing sticking up above the level of the glass height. What this trick uses is our experience that broken glass cuts - it does when forced into the skin. It's rather like firewalking - there is nothing at all mysterious to doing that apart from it is "counter intuitive".
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

1st January 2007, 06:47 AM	#23
Azrael 5 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Yorkshire,Uk Posts: 4,171	...and the pulse stopping is a trick and the plastic bag over the head is just dumb."The Great Prestoni" never did that!! The newspaper prediction on the other hand hurts my brain.
	__________________ "I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown Photography here

1st January 2007, 08:07 AM	#24
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 5,804	[derail] is there any reason that there's so few threads in conjourer's corner? I've never ventured in here before, and it would be nice to read past ones - but the threads page stops on page 1.....do i need to show my magic circle membership to get higher level access? [/derail]

1st January 2007, 09:21 AM	#25
PenguinWarrior Scholar Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 101	Originally Posted by andyandy [derail] is there any reason that there's so few threads in conjourer's corner? I've never ventured in here before, and it would be nice to read past ones - but the threads page stops on page 1.....do i need to show my magic circle membership to get higher level access? [/derail] I've got a couple of theories. The first is that magic is a field that a reasonably small percentage of the population is interested in, and that applies to skeptics as much as it does the general population. The second is that the only thing worth talking about in magic is how the tricks are done, and that is not allowed here. This reduces conversation to the level of "Magician/Trick X was good wasn't he/she/it?" "Yes, I quite enjoyed him/her/it" "Nah, he/she/it was boring", and a little bit of coded language by those trying to get around the rules. I think this is incredibly stupid, personally, but the whole "Thou shalt not reveal the secrets, verily" is sadly rather ingrained in the collective psyche of magicians, despite the fact that it is, in my opinion, half the fun finding out exactly how the git did it. Since this is a site based on an organisation run by a magician, it is therefore not surprising that this rule is enforced, despite the fact that it basically cripples the level of discourse. Oh, well. I recognise that people feel differently about the whole revealing of secrets thing, but they are not the type of people who would come here anyway. I love KNOWING. Hell, figuring out the secrets behind tricks/deception/mysteries is what being a skeptic is largely about. And it's not as if it ruins the trick. The solution of the pulse slowing/stopping trick for example is beatifully simple, despite the fact that the trick itself seems utterly baffling at first. Baffled, then enlightened, that's what magic should be about. That's why I never post here, anyhow. Or come here, really. I only popped in to see if there was any discussion of Derren Brown's new show. And now I depart, in a puff of smoke. Puff
PenguinWarrior Scholar Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 101

1st January 2007, 10:27 AM	#26
Mr Clingford Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: UK Posts: 1,310	I don't remember seeing the glass being raked - is that hidden at some point from the theatre audience too? This pulse thing - is it a trick of physiology or something that can't be revealed type thing? I couldn't remember that "The Great Prestoni" name which annoyed me - but having got it, thanks Azrael 5, I googled it and found it to come from a Dick Van Dyke show!
	__________________ God is my copilot. But we crashed into a mountain and I had to eat him.

1st January 2007, 10:52 AM	#27
Azrael 5 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Yorkshire,Uk Posts: 4,171	The pulse stop is physiology,but also a magic trick-can't see it having any other use.So no revealing online.
	__________________ "I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown Photography here

1st January 2007, 02:17 PM	#28
DJM Muse Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 783	Does anyone have any clue about the newspapers part? It looked like there were so many different free choises. It looks just impossible, especially if the word is indeed from a real paper! I've never seen anything like this.
DJM Muse Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 783

1st January 2007, 02:35 PM	#29
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,450	Originally Posted by Mr Clingford I don't remember seeing the glass being raked - is that hidden at some point from the theatre audience too? This pulse thing - is it a trick of physiology or something that can't be revealed type thing? I couldn't remember that "The Great Prestoni" name which annoyed me - but having got it, thanks Azrael 5, I googled it and found it to come from a Dick Van Dyke show! Randi himself has revealed how the pulse trick is done, I've seen the video online but can't find the link - it's the Carlos documentary. I'm sure someone posted a link in the forum a few months ago, it's there somewhere but I checked the links section and can't find it so it must be in a thread. Worth a watch!
	__________________ TAM London Oct 3rd and 4th 2009 www.tamlondon.org www.spoonscience.com The World Record Spoon Bend from TAM6 - for all benders, pushers and dealers Last edited by tkingdoll; 1st January 2007 at 03:29 PM.

1st January 2007, 02:49 PM	#30
firecoins Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nyack, NY Posts: 3,054	Originally Posted by tkingdoll Randi himself has revealed how the pulse trick is done, I've seen the video fonline but can't find the link - it's the Carlos documentary. I'm sure someone posted a link in the forum a few months ago, it's there somewhere but I checked the links section and can't find it so it must be in a thread. Worth a watch! I know how the pulse effect is done. Its quite simple but can be played like a miracle by an expert showman.
	__________________ NY Paramedic, skeptic, 9/11/01 Reality-ist. I am both right wing nut and left wing lunatic. Deal with it.

1st January 2007, 03:31 PM	#31
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,450	Originally Posted by firecoins I know how the pulse effect is done. Its quite simple but can be played like a miracle by an expert showman. What I love about that trick is how simple it is. When I saw the vid I realised I would never, ever have thought of that. Here's an interesting thought: if we're not allowed to reveal how tricks are done, how would we debunk someone who was claiming Derren could really read minds?
	__________________ TAM London Oct 3rd and 4th 2009 www.tamlondon.org www.spoonscience.com The World Record Spoon Bend from TAM6 - for all benders, pushers and dealers

1st January 2007, 03:59 PM	#32
firecoins Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nyack, NY Posts: 3,054	Originally Posted by tkingdoll Here's an interesting thought: if we're not allowed to reveal how tricks are done, how would we debunk someone who was claiming Derren could really read minds? From the front page of Derren's website Quote: Derren Brown is a unique force in the world of illusion - he can seemingly predict and control human behaviour. He doesn't claim to be a mind-reader, instead he describes his craft as a mixture of magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship. Whatever you choose to call it, his unparalleled performances amaze and unsettle all those who watch him. This is a powerful and provocative form of entertainment, unlikely to be imitated for a long while. From the description of the Devil's Picturbook DVDs Derren sells on the magician's side of his website. Quote: For ten years Derren was a professional close-up magician before making the move to perform only mind-reading. It was with his card-magic that he made a name for himself, and this tape contains all of that world-class card repertoire. The viewer is then taken into examples and explanations of his unique brand of direct mind-reading with cards which has gone some way towards revolutionising mentalism for the new Millennium. The fact that Derren has a magician's side of his website should be more than enough proof. Derren creates the illusion of mindreading.
	__________________ NY Paramedic, skeptic, 9/11/01 Reality-ist. I am both right wing nut and left wing lunatic. Deal with it. Last edited by firecoins; 1st January 2007 at 04:03 PM.

1st January 2007, 04:02 PM	#33
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,450	Originally Posted by firecoins Derren has published some of his effects. Well, Randi has revealed the pulse trick on TV, but I still can't say how it's done in here. Hmm...but could I do it in another thread? A true believer probably wouldn't state their beliefs in this section of the forum anyway.
	__________________ TAM London Oct 3rd and 4th 2009 www.tamlondon.org www.spoonscience.com The World Record Spoon Bend from TAM6 - for all benders, pushers and dealers

1st January 2007, 04:16 PM	#34
firecoins Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nyack, NY Posts: 3,054	Originally Posted by tkingdoll Well, Randi has revealed the pulse trick on TV, but I still can't say how it's done in here. Hmm...but could I do it in another thread? A true believer probably wouldn't state their beliefs in this section of the forum anyway. This conjurer's section so there is no need to reveal the secret. If your dealing with someone who believes Derren is for real...show Derren's website. Derren is not claiming to be real. He claims to be doing illusions.
	__________________ NY Paramedic, skeptic, 9/11/01 Reality-ist. I am both right wing nut and left wing lunatic. Deal with it.

1st January 2007, 04:24 PM	#35
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,450	Originally Posted by firecoins This conjurer's section so there is no need to reveal the secret. If your dealing with someone who believes Derren is for real...show Derren's website. Derren is not claiming to be real. He claims to be doing illusions. See, there's the problem. Lots of people are rabid fans and read his website all the time, and they still believe he has magic powers. I saw his live show a few years ago and he went to such great pains to explain how spiritualism isn't real. He then did a trick in which he got a woman to contact his 'dead' friend, and in the lobby afterwards stupid middle-aged women were gasping over how he was talking to the dead. Unless you could actually tell/show them how it was done, there's no way "it's just a trick" would convince them.
	__________________ TAM London Oct 3rd and 4th 2009 www.tamlondon.org www.spoonscience.com The World Record Spoon Bend from TAM6 - for all benders, pushers and dealers

1st January 2007, 04:45 PM	#36
Azrael 5 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Yorkshire,Uk Posts: 4,171	If they don't believe Derren when he says it's fake,and he's the one doing it,then what hope is there for them?
	__________________ "I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown Photography here

1st January 2007, 04:57 PM	#37
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,450	Originally Posted by Azrael 5 If they don't believe Derren when he says it's fake,and he's the one doing it,then what hope is there for them? The problem is often the claim that "this is a trick" rather than "this is a trick and here's how it's done". In a perverse way, they are actually asking for evidence. Bit like skeptics!
	__________________ TAM London Oct 3rd and 4th 2009 www.tamlondon.org www.spoonscience.com The World Record Spoon Bend from TAM6 - for all benders, pushers and dealers

1st January 2007, 08:17 PM	#38
firecoins Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nyack, NY Posts: 3,054	Originally Posted by tkingdoll The problem is often the claim that "this is a trick" rather than "this is a trick and here's how it's done". In a perverse way, they are actually asking for evidence. Bit like skeptics! Well its simple. Perform the effect yourself! Don't tell the secret because these people are idiots. If even Derren says its fake and they don't believe him than they are idiots.
	__________________ NY Paramedic, skeptic, 9/11/01 Reality-ist. I am both right wing nut and left wing lunatic. Deal with it.