The Confederate Flag

[Tony]

Does the confederate flag offend you?

I really don't understand why some people are so offended by the sight of the confederate flag.

What are your thoughts on the confederate flag and what do you think about people that fly it?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Why use the Battle Flag? If you're celebrating heritage, why not use the national flag.



Or does the Stars and Bars not have the same emotional baggage that the Southern Cross does?

[Frank Newgent]

What a coincidence. I was just fixing to post this...



Does the Iranian flag offend you?

I really don't understand why some people are so offended by the sight of the Iranian flag.

What are your thoughts on the Iranian flag and what do you think about people that fly it?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Actually I am offened by the IRI flag.

When I lived there it was more reflective of their Persian roots.

I like this flag.

[Dymanic]

A lot of good men fought and died for the right to fly that flag, but it's important to remember one thing:

...they lost.

[Tony]

Quote:

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Why use the Battle Flag? If you're celebrating heritage, why not use the national flag.

Good question. My guess is, people fly the battle flag because it represents rebellion. Perhaps more than the national flag? I really dont know. I dont fly the flag personally, but I think it's pathetic (and funny) that it has turned into such a touchy issue by the PC thugs. (see frank's kneejerk post)

And thats the question;

Why is it such a touchy political issue?

[Frank Newgent]

Quote:

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner

Actually I am offened by the IRI flag.

I know what you mean...

[Mike B.]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony


Good question. My guess is, people fly the battle flag because it represents rebellion. Perhaps more than the national flag? I really dont know. I dont fly the flag personally, but I think it's pathetic (and funny) that it has turned into such a touchy issue by the PC thugs. (see frank's kneejerk post)

And thats the question;

Why is it such a touchy political issue?

I don't know, from statements like this from the man that wrote the Confederate Constitution, their Vice-President, Alexander Stephens:


"But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other -- though last, not least. The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution -- African slavery as it exists amongst us -- the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition. [Applause.] This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

[UnrepentantSinner]

Quote:

Originally posted by Frank Newgent
I know what you mean...

We're with you Brother!

[Ian Osborne]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike B, quoting CSA Vice-President, Alexander Stephens, not offering his own opinions.
"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition. [Applause.] This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

But many (if not most) of your founding fathers were slave-OWNERS. Does this mean the Stars and Stripes is a racist flag?

The causes of the civill war were far more complex than 'North wanted to free the slaves, South didn't'. Abolition wasn't even a Unionist war aim until 1863. Had the CSA survived, slavery would have continued for maybe a generation after abolition in the Union (assuming the 1865 date remains the same, which it probably wouldn't), but there's no way it could continue into the 20th Century. And maybe the road to equality would have been a little smoother in the south had the war not happened? Just a thought...

To answer Tony's question, I think the reason the Confederate flag offends people is because it's been hijacked by the offensive. Same story in the UK, where the Union Flag is commonly associated with racist skinheads and football thugs. Maybe it's time to steal 'em back...

[Tony]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ian Osborne



To answer Tony's question, I think the reason the Confederate flag offends people is because it's been hijacked by the offensive. Same story in the UK, where the Union Flag is commonly associated with racist skinheads and football thugs. Maybe it's time to steal 'em back...

I think you're right. I think the same could also be said of the swastika. And I cant believe people are associating the Union Jack with racism just because some yahoos fly it. You need to take the Jack back.

[Checkmite]

The whole battle flag thing knocks me for a loop. I personally find it hilarious that, out of more than 200 years of southern heritage, people have decided on a flag that represented the south for about 2 years, and was the battle standard for the losing side in a war. It does indeed send a message to me - though probably not the kind the flag owner is hoping for.

The funniest thing, though, is that your average proud rebel-flag owner is an Ohioan (or someother Midwestian) whose family immigrated to the US after World War I.

[Ian Osborne]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony
I think you're right. I think the same could also be said of the swastika. And I cant believe people are associating the Union Jack with racism just because some yahoos fly it. You need to take the Jack back.

The swastika is so strongly associated with the Nazis that I find it highly unlikely that anyone would wear it other than as a symbol of Nazism. IIRC, the Hindu religious symbol that was hijacked is a mirror image of the Nazi swastika, leaving the one you had in mind as the sole preserve of the Nazis. I could be wrong on this though - corrections will be gratefully received.

And just for the record, the British emblem is the Union Flag. it's only called the Union Jack when flown from the bow of a ship.

[Tony]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ian Osborne


The swastika is so strongly associated with the Nazis that I find it highly unlikely that anyone would wear it other than as a symbol of Nazism. IIRC, the Hindu religious symbol that was hijacked is a mirror image of the Nazi swastika, leaving the one you had in mind as the sole preserve of the Nazis. I could be wrong on this though - corrections will be gratefully received.

Yeah, the nazis messed with the orientation of the original hindu swastika, but the design is essentially the same. Its a shame really, as a designer, I think the swastika is an interesting design, too bad it is tainted.


And just for the record, the British emblem is the Union Flag. it's only called the Union Jack when flown from the bow of a ship.

You still need to take it back.

[Crossbow]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony


Good question. My guess is, people fly the battle flag because it represents rebellion. Perhaps more than the national flag? I really dont know. I dont fly the flag personally, but I think it's pathetic (and funny) that it has turned into such a touchy issue by the PC thugs. (see frank's kneejerk post)

And thats the question;

Why is it such a touchy political issue?

How quickly people forget.

The bad feelings really started when the KKK thugs waved around the Confederate Flag in order to show how much they opposed Reconstruction, Intergration, and any issue they did not like.

[Tony]

Quote:

Originally posted by Crossbow


How quickly people forget.

Im sorry, I wasnt alive in 1871.

[Crossbow]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony



Im sorry, I wasnt alive in 1871.

Neither was I, so I make use of history books in order to understand events that I did not witness.

By the way, the Civil War ended in 1865 and the KKK formed soon thereafter.

[Tony]

Quote:

Originally posted by Crossbow


By the way, the Civil War ended in 1865 and the KKK formed soon thereafter.

Duh!! I just pulled 1871 out of my a$$.

[Crossbow]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony



Duh!! I just pulled 1871 out of my a$$.

That is good to know.

[Mike B.]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ian Osborne


But many (if not most) of your founding fathers were slave-OWNERS. Does this mean the Stars and Stripes is a racist flag?

The causes of the civill war were far more complex than 'North wanted to free the slaves, South didn't'. Abolition wasn't even a Unionist war aim until 1863. Had the CSA survived, slavery would have continued for maybe a generation after abolition in the Union (assuming the 1865 date remains the same, which it probably wouldn't), but there's no way it could continue into the 20th Century. And maybe the road to equality would have been a little smoother in the south had the war not happened? Just a thought...

To answer Tony's question, I think the reason the Confederate flag offends people is because it's been hijacked by the offensive. Same story in the UK, where the Union Flag is commonly associated with racist skinheads and football thugs. Maybe it's time to steal 'em back...

I don't know Ian.
The Civil War was indeed not started because the North wanted to abolish slavery. However, it was started becaus the South seceeded because the North elected a government under the Republicans which was opposed to its spread.
When the first state South Carolina seceeded it gave this statement for doing so:

""We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been
defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the
action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of
deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the
rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the
Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they
have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object
is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other
States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their
homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and
pictures to servile insurrection."

State after state that seceeded gave the same type of statements. Mississippi's begins with "Our cause is throughly idenfified with slavery."

When Stephens said slavery was the "cornerstone" of the new government, he meant it. One could hardly state the US Constitution's cornerstone was slavery.

[Tricky]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony

Duh!! I just pulled 1871 out of my a$$.

Well, you were close. You must have opened a history book somewhere along the way.

But lets face it. Symbols mean what they have come to mean. The swastika means "Nazi" and the Stars and Bars means "Racist". It doesn't matter how any individual intends them to be taken, that is now the message they convey. And the people who fly them know this. A person who flies a rebel flag (or more commonly, has a decal of one on his truck window) is accepting the label of racist, just as anyone who flew a swastika flag in front of his house would be considered a Nazi by the general public (even if he was just proud of his war souvenirs).

I have nothing against the piece of cloth. Hell, I grew up in Alabama, where the state flag is a variation of the Confederate Battle flag. But I recognize that for many, it is a symbol of slavery and racism, so I would not be so rude as to choose to deliberately offend those people.

You can't go home again. Gay now means homosexual, tits now are not small birds, and the rebel flag stands for racism. It is a shame, but that is how it is.

[Mike B.]

Ian,
Also, you seem to be following the "lost cause" line about slavery dying out. The "lost cause" refers to the systematic rewriting of the history of the South to expunge slavery as any cause of the Civil War.

Is there evidence in the primary record that the SOuth was moving to abolish slavery in the 1850s before the war?

The evidence would say the opposite.
The value of slaves was going up. There was new agitation to re-open the slave trade. There was increased "fillibustering" to invade new land like Nicaraugua and Cuba to set up slave states in them. And as Kenneth Stammp and more recently Don Fehrenbacher, have shown slavery in places like Richmond was being turned into an urban institution. Tredagar Iron Works was using slaves to great advantage to work.

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony
Does the confederate flag offend you?

That's not the Confederate flag.

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Why use the Battle Flag? If you're celebrating heritage, why not use the national flag.

Actually, that's just the first Confederate flag. Since it was hard to distinguish it from a Union flag on the battlefield (causing many generals to unofficially adopt the "Southern Cross" posted above), it was changed to this:



However, that flag was difficult to distinguish at a distance from the flag of truce, so it was changed again to this:



The war ended soon after.

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dymanic
A lot of good men fought and died for the right to fly that flag,

Oh, so THAT'S what the Civil War was about! Not about slavery, not about tariffs, not about fair representation, not about states' rights, not about Constitutional restrictions on the Federal Government, or the Commerce Clause, or any of those other issues; it was all about a flag.

Thank you for clearing that up.

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by Crossbow
By the way, the Civil War ended in 1865 and the KKK formed soon thereafter.

But the KKK as formed then was not the Klan as we know it today. It was a citizens' militia, which actually didn't last. Then, after the turn of the century, it was revived as the Klan we all know and loathe today.

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike B.
Is there evidence in the primary record that the SOuth was moving to abolish slavery in the 1850s before the war?

There is evidence, and many Southerners (including Robert E. Lee) believe this, that industrialization was going to make slavery obsolete very soon.

Quote:

The value of slaves was going up.

Becuase slaves were really becoming less and less a necessity, and more and more a status symbol.

[shanek]

Here's someone who's not offended by the Confederate Flag:



By the way, when the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania hosted the Gettysburg Reunion in 1913, they had made separate facilities for blacks on the northern side, but were completely unprepeared for the number of southern black veterans. So their white confederate brethren let them into their tents with open arms—and the north side was segregated, and the southern side wasn't!

Here's a picture of the Confederate veterans at the 1938 Gettysburg Reunion:



A couple more interesting facts:

In 1864, CSA President Jefferson Davis officially recognized blacks, both bonded and free, in the Confederate armed forces. They had been unofficially recruited before by Generals and field commanders, who were ready to take anyone willing to fight. (Confederate women even sometimes dressed in men's clothes to go fight. But that's another story.) Later that year, Davis offered freedom to any slave who served in the Confederate army for one year. (Of course, the war was to be over within a year, but he didn't know that of course.) Here's a marker dedicated to them:



Davis also proposed a treaty with France and Great Britain where, in exchange for official recognition of the CSA, he offered complete emancipation of all slaves in the CSA and its territories. Yeah, slavery was a really huge concern, they would have been unwilling to continue without it...

[UnrepentantSinner]

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek


Actually, that's just the first Confederate flag. Since it was hard to distinguish it from a Union flag on the battlefield (causing many generals to unofficially adopt the "Southern Cross" posted above), it was changed to this:

However, that flag was difficult to distinguish at a distance from the flag of truce, so it was changed again to this:

The war ended soon after.

Not to quibble.. o.k.. to quibble, but just as I snipped the images from your quote, I only posted the first Stars and Bars to save load time on this page. It looked like it was going to get image intensive and at home I'm on dial up.

Quoting Tony:
"Im sorry, I wasnt alive in 1871."

I forget what your age is, but I think you're a little younger than me (35) which means you weren't alive during the early 1960s which would be a much more relavent time period for you to cite. The Southern Cross was adopted as the symbol of southerners and southern legislatures to represent their ideal of "Segregation Today, Segregation Tomorrow, Segregation Forever."

As a certified potential member of the Sons of the Confederacy, it's more about how the Southern Cross was abused by the segregationists during the 1960s that makes me averse to waving it proudly than it's original use during the Civil War.

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
As a certified potential member of the Sons of the Confederacy, it's more about how the Southern Cross was abused by the segregationists during the 1960s that makes me averse to waving it proudly than it's original use during the Civil War.

That's a point. Here's another: The KKK has been using Christian crosses more than they used the Confederate Cross. Why is no one up in arms about this same symbol being displayed in churches all over the country?

[Tricky]

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek


That's a point. Here's another: The KKK has been using Christian crosses more than they used the Confederate Cross. Why is no one up in arms about this same symbol being displayed in churches all over the country?

The symbol of the KKK is specifically the burning cross. I can pretty much assure you that you won't see many of those in church ceremonies.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek


That's a point. Here's another: The KKK has been using Christian crosses more than they used the Confederate Cross. Why is no one up in arms about this same symbol being displayed in churches all over the country?

Because one is the symbol of a majority being hijacked by small groups of radicals while the later is (ostensibly) the symbol of a majority being hijacked by the state legislature.

Exellent reposte! But I'd hazzard that few people would find the analogy valid.

[Skeptical Greg]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony


Does the confederate flag offend you?


Nope. But it does give me important clues about those who are so adamant about the right to incorporate it in state flags,and fly it over government institutions...

I really don't understand why some people are so offended by the sight of the confederate flag.
Really ?


What are your thoughts on the confederate flag and what do you think about people that fly it?
See answer #1, above..

[WMT1]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tricky
But lets face it. Symbols mean what they have come to mean.

Which is often different things to different people.

Quote:

The swastika means "Nazi" and the Stars and Bars means "Racist".

Not to everyone. Not by a long shot.

Quote:

It doesn't matter how any individual intends them to be taken,

It probably matters to that individual. But thanks for demonstrating one of the fundamental traits of PC.

Quote:

that is now the message they convey.

Again, not to everyone.

Quote:

A person who flies a rebel flag (or more commonly, has a decal of one on his truck window) is accepting the label of racist

Talked to everyone who flies a rebel flag, have you?

Quote:

But I recognize that for many, it is a symbol of slavery and racism,

The operative words being "for many", a qualifier missing from most of your other comments.

Quote:

Gay now means homosexual, tits now are not small birds, and the rebel flag stands for racism. It is a shame, but that is how it is.

And yet again, not to everyone. The firmness of some of your conclusions would suggest that you've led a somewhat sheltered life - especially if you formed those conclusions while living in Texas.

[Tricky]

Quote:

Originally posted by WMT1
And yet again, not to everyone. The firmness of some of your conclusions would suggest that you've led a somewhat sheltered life - especially if you formed those conclusions while living in Texas.

Your monotonous objections aside, you must recognize that if most people regard a symbol or a word to mean a certain thing and you are aware of that fact, then by using that symbol or word to mean a different thing, you accept the fact that your meanings will be misinterpreted.

I suspect that you would not say to a stranger in a bar, "My, but you are queer", assuming that he would know that to you, it only means "odd".

If you display a rebel flag, you do so with the knowlege that a large number of people will believe you to be racist. If that does not bother you, then obviously, you don't mind being identified as a racist. I expect you will claim that "you don't care what people who make that kind of judgment think", or something similar. I'm not as eager to dismiss people because of the way they define words and symbols.

Though I have lived all my life in the Southern US, I am not so provincial as to think that everyone shares my world view.

[KelvinG]

My guess is a vast majority of Americans would have a problem with the confederate flag. I'm only speculating here, but I got a pretty good hunch that the flag does represent racist ideals to many.

But, if someone wants to fly it, that is their right. If they feel proud to do it, and they don't feel it represents repugnant ideals, then more power to them.

They may want to also walk down the street flipping everyone the bird while proudly proclaiming "It's only a finger!"

You can stick your head in the sand and pretend that the confederate flag doesn't harbour negativity to many people. But don't be shocked if the reception from some isn't so pleasant.
But, you can cry "It's only a flag!"

[Kodiak]

My favorite flag, the Navy Jack:





Who (besides Al Queda) is afraid or offended by this flag?

[Ladewig]

Quote:

Does the confederate flag offend you?

I really don't understand why some people are so offended by the sight of the confederate flag.

Well, we have something in common, because I really don't understand why people feel proud to fly the confederate flag. They say it is a symbol of their heritage, but I am confused as to why they chose that symbol from all the available symbols to represent their heritage. I would think a state flag or city flag would be much more representative of whatever regional or local values a U.S. citizen wants to cherish.

I would be more convinced of the argument that confederate flag = states' rights if southern Sentators, Representatives, and community leaders offered more political and financial support to Tibet than to China and to East Timor than to Indonesia.

[c0rbin]

Quote:

Southern Cross

I think that is the cross of St Andrew, like on the Union Jack.

Moving back to the original question...when I see the stars and bars on the back of a pick-up truck (haven't seen one on the back of a mercedes...yet), I usually see myself asking the driver this question:

"So, are you claiming you are for state's rights or for black slavery?"

I usually am left wondering what their answer would be as they speed past me on the highway and I never get a chance.

The other day, I was driving with my three year old and we pulled through a drive through and on the back window of the pick-up (again, not a mercedes, though this would have been a little more apt to be a mercedes) was a large decal of the SS lightning-bolt "s"s.

My son asked me what "those two white lightening bolts were." I replied simply that they stood for Schutzstaffel. I left it at that until he gets a little older.

Then I might explain hate and racism to him.