Flim Flam question

GreyWanderer · 8th February 2003, 06:58 AM

I just borrowed Flim Flam from the library. I noticed that in chapter 3, page 35 on one of the lists it says:

Jupiter is a gas mass - Wrong
(translated from the Norwegian version)

I thought Jupiter was a gas planet...

RichardR · 8th February 2003, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GreyWanderer
I just borrowed Flim Flam from the library. I noticed that in chapter 3, page 35 on one of the lists it says:

Jupiter is a gas mass - Wrong
(translated from the Norwegian version)

I thought Jupiter was a gas planet...

Doesn't say anything like that in my version.

Aoidoi · 8th February 2003, 10:04 AM

In my version it's in Chapter 4 page 65:
"Jupiter is a gaseous mass - Wrong"
a later one in the list says:

"Interior of Jupiter is liquid or gaseous - True (liquid)"

http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/lin...t_structure.ht

Quote:

Jupiter's interior composition is primarily that of simple molecules such as hydrogen and helium, which are liquids under the high pressure environments found in the interiors of the outer planets, and not solids.

GreyWanderer · 8th February 2003, 11:06 AM

Ok, so Jupiter is liquid in the middle and gasous on the outside?

8th February 2003, 02:14 PM

I thought that there was some sort of solid core in the center, if only a small rock? Or maybe at the center, the pressures are such that you have solid helium? I mean, not a single solid to be found? That seems kinda unlikely.

BillyJoe · 8th February 2003, 04:17 PM

Have a look here

Some relevant quotes

"The gas planets do not have solid surfaces",

"Jupiter is about 90% hydrogen and 10% helium (by numbers of atoms, 75/25% by mass) with traces of methane, water, ammonia and "rock".

"Our knowledge of the interior of Jupiter is highly indirect... Jupiter probably has a core of rocky material amounting to something like 10 to 15 Earth-masses."

"Above the core lies the main bulk of the planet in the form of liquid metallic hydrogen. This exotic form of the most common of elements is possible only at pressures exceeding 4 million bars, as is the case in the interior of Jupiter. Liquid metallic hydrogen consists of ionized protons and electrons. At the temperature and pressure of Jupiter's interior hydrogen is a liquid, not a gas."

"The outermost layer is composed primarily of ordinary molecular hydrogen and helium which is liquid in the interior and gaseous further out."

So it's....

(?Rocky core) -> liquid metallic hydrogen -> liquid hydrogen/helium -> gaseous hydrogen/helium

8th February 2003, 08:01 PM

That's basically what I heard (though I wasn't aware of the "liquid metallic hydrogen" area). I also heard somewhere that if Jupiter had 1000 times it real mass when it was originally forming, it would have become a star. Was that true, as well? What about the other gas giants? (They would have required more mass, but would that have been the only difference?)

BillyJoe · 9th February 2003, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rwald
I also heard somewhere that if Jupiter had 1000 times it real mass when it was originally forming, it would have become a star. Was that true, as well?

Okay, just once more, rwald, after that you can do your own googling

Quote:

Jupiter is just about as large in diameter as a gas planet can be. If more material were to be added, it would be compressed by gravity such that the overall radius would increase only slightly. A star can be larger only because of its internal (nuclear) heat source. But Jupiter would have to be at least 80 times more massive to become a star.

9th February 2003, 03:35 PM

Why? It's more fun to make you Google for me.

But seriously, though, if it's annoying you, just say so.

BillyJoe · 10th February 2003, 02:24 AM

Nah, if I wasn't interested myself I wouldn't have bothered. I'll probably remember about jupiter's four layers long after they discover there are only three!

Cheers,
BillyJoe.

Phaycops · 10th February 2003, 01:02 PM

Ok, sorry to have such a random, meaningless post, but that's really cool, about the metallic liquid hydrogen. And 4 million bars?! Woah! Who needs religion when there's stuff like this out there?!

xouper · 11th February 2004, 12:13 PM

bump

8th February 2003, 06:58 AM	#1
GreyWanderer Thinker Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 140	Flim Flam question I just borrowed Flim Flam from the library. I noticed that in chapter 3, page 35 on one of the lists it says: Jupiter is a gas mass - Wrong (translated from the Norwegian version) I thought Jupiter was a gas planet...
GreyWanderer Thinker Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 140	__________________ "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." - J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord Of The Rings

8th February 2003, 08:10 AM	#2
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,281	Re: Flim Flam question Quote: Originally posted by GreyWanderer I just borrowed Flim Flam from the library. I noticed that in chapter 3, page 35 on one of the lists it says: Jupiter is a gas mass - Wrong (translated from the Norwegian version) I thought Jupiter was a gas planet... Doesn't say anything like that in my version.
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,281

8th February 2003, 10:04 AM	#3
Aoidoi Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,418	In my version it's in Chapter 4 page 65: "Jupiter is a gaseous mass - Wrong" a later one in the list says: "Interior of Jupiter is liquid or gaseous - True (liquid)" http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/lin...t_structure.ht Quote: Jupiter's interior composition is primarily that of simple molecules such as hydrogen and helium, which are liquids under the high pressure environments found in the interiors of the outer planets, and not solids.
Aoidoi Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,418	__________________ "The priests used to say that faith can move mountains, and nobody believed them. Today the scientists say that they can level mountains, and nobody doubts them." - Joseph Campbell We cannot defend freedom abroad by abandoning it at home. —Edward R. Murrow

8th February 2003, 11:06 AM	#4
GreyWanderer Thinker Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 140	Ok, so Jupiter is liquid in the middle and gasous on the outside?
GreyWanderer Thinker Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 140	__________________ "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." - J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord Of The Rings

8th February 2003, 02:14 PM	#5
rwald Guest Posts: n/a	I thought that there was some sort of solid core in the center, if only a small rock? Or maybe at the center, the pressures are such that you have solid helium? I mean, not a single solid to be found? That seems kinda unlikely.
rwald Guest Posts: n/a

8th February 2003, 04:17 PM	#6
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Have a look here Some relevant quotes "The gas planets do not have solid surfaces", "Jupiter is about 90% hydrogen and 10% helium (by numbers of atoms, 75/25% by mass) with traces of methane, water, ammonia and "rock". "Our knowledge of the interior of Jupiter is highly indirect... Jupiter probably has a core of rocky material amounting to something like 10 to 15 Earth-masses." "Above the core lies the main bulk of the planet in the form of liquid metallic hydrogen. This exotic form of the most common of elements is possible only at pressures exceeding 4 million bars, as is the case in the interior of Jupiter. Liquid metallic hydrogen consists of ionized protons and electrons. At the temperature and pressure of Jupiter's interior hydrogen is a liquid, not a gas." "The outermost layer is composed primarily of ordinary molecular hydrogen and helium which is liquid in the interior and gaseous further out." So it's.... (?Rocky core) -> liquid metallic hydrogen -> liquid hydrogen/helium -> gaseous hydrogen/helium
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

8th February 2003, 08:01 PM	#7
rwald Guest Posts: n/a	That's basically what I heard (though I wasn't aware of the "liquid metallic hydrogen" area). I also heard somewhere that if Jupiter had 1000 times it real mass when it was originally forming, it would have become a star. Was that true, as well? What about the other gas giants? (They would have required more mass, but would that have been the only difference?)
rwald Guest Posts: n/a

9th February 2003, 02:07 AM	#8
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Quote: Originally posted by rwald I also heard somewhere that if Jupiter had 1000 times it real mass when it was originally forming, it would have become a star. Was that true, as well? Okay, just once more, rwald, after that you can do your own googling Quote: Jupiter is just about as large in diameter as a gas planet can be. If more material were to be added, it would be compressed by gravity such that the overall radius would increase only slightly. A star can be larger only because of its internal (nuclear) heat source. But Jupiter would have to be at least 80 times more massive to become a star.
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

9th February 2003, 03:35 PM	#9
rwald Guest Posts: n/a	Why? It's more fun to make you Google for me. But seriously, though, if it's annoying you, just say so.
rwald Guest Posts: n/a

10th February 2003, 02:24 AM	#10
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Nah, if I wasn't interested myself I wouldn't have bothered. I'll probably remember about jupiter's four layers long after they discover there are only three! Cheers, BillyJoe.
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

10th February 2003, 01:02 PM	#11
Phaycops Guest Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 517	How cool is that! Ok, sorry to have such a random, meaningless post, but that's really cool, about the metallic liquid hydrogen. And 4 million bars?! Woah! Who needs religion when there's stuff like this out there?!

11th February 2004, 12:13 PM	#12
xouper Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,189	bump
xouper Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,189