Please debunk the 'horseshoe'.

[alexg]

has the 'horseshoe' http://thewebfairy.com/911/h-effect/horseshoe.htm been properly debunked here. If not, would someone with requiste expertise please do so. Thanks.

ETa

I'm assuming beam got hot while supporting a bunch of weight and simply got bent but the troofers seem to think theres something impossible about this.

[rwguinn]

Originally Posted by alexg

has the 'horseshoe' http://thewebfairy.com/911/h-effect/horseshoe.htm been properly debunked here. If not, would someone with requiste expertise please do so. Thanks.

Steel has a modulus of 29.9x10^6 psi. This is the slope of the stress/strain curve.
A36 steel has a yield strength of 36000psi. This means it starts bending at about 0.1% strain. It fractures at about 7-8% strain. Strain si measured in (deflection/original length). It is dimensionless.
When P=Force/Area>36000 psi, steel bends. If the steel is warm, that value goes down, and the steel will bend farther without fracturing.
That is how horseshoes are made, on a (usually) smaller scale.
Paul Bunyon's horse (if he trades Babe in) would need shoes that big.
Need more?

[Lurker]

Why would they think it is impossible? I mean, there is a picture and video of it, right? Are they claiming the beam does not exist or that it could not be bent like that?

Lurker

[MortFurd]

"Debunk" in what way?

Freaky things happen during chaotic events. Do you see any reason to doubt the claim that that particular piece of iron was not bent into a horseshoe shape by the collapse of one of the WTC buildings?

Do you doubt:
1. The source of the beam (really from WTC?)
2. That it could have been bent into that shape by the collapse?

[rwguinn]

Originally Posted by rwguinn

Steel has a modulus of 29.9x10^6 psi. This is the slope of the stress/strain curve.
A36 steel has a yield strength of 36000psi. This means it starts bending at about 0.1% strain. It fractures at about 7-8% strain. Strain si measured in (deflection/original length). It is dimensionless.
When P=Force/Area>36000 psi, steel bends. If the steel is warm, that value goes down, and the steel will bend farther without fracturing.
That is how horseshoes are made, on a (usually) smaller scale.
Paul Bunyon's horse (if he trades Babe in) would need shoes that big.
Need more?

Sorry for quoting myself--but that should actually read "When P=Force/Area>36000 psi, steel bends permanently"

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by rwguinn

Steel has a modulus of 29.9x10^6 psi. This is the slope of the stress/strain curve.
A36 steel has a yield strength of 36000psi. This means it starts bending at about 0.1% strain. It fractures at about 7-8% strain. Strain si measured in (deflection/original length). It is dimensionless.
When P=Force/Area>36000 psi, steel bends. If the steel is warm, that value goes down, and the steel will bend farther without fracturing.
That is how horseshoes are made, on a (usually) smaller scale.
Paul Bunyon's horse (if he trades Babe in) would need shoes that big.
Need more?

If it fractures at 7-8% strain, what is the strain in the beam when it is bent 90 degrees? It will depend on the radius of curvature, the larger the radius the lower the strain.

I would also wonder if the Ultimate Tensile Strength of steel can be effected by temperature. I woudl think that steel's strain at rupture (UTS) would be higher under higher temperatures. Well, I know this as fact, actually.

Lurker

[rwguinn]

Originally Posted by Lurker

If it fractures at 7-8% strain, what is the strain in the beam when it is bent 90 degrees? It will depend on the radius of curvature, the larger the radius the lower the strain.

I would also wonder if the Ultimate Tensile Strength of steel can be effected by temperature. I woudl think that steel's strain at rupture (UTS) would be higher under higher temperatures. Well, I know this as fact, actually.

Lurker

Absolutely. Temperature affects yield and ultimate.
That is why you can make a horse shoe. Get it hot--say, 600C, and you can bend it into a very small circle--at well over 100% strain with sufficient force.
That's why blacksmiths us a hammer and anvil.

[defaultdotxbe]

they have some dopy stuff in there
http://thewebfairy.com/911/h-effect/93granite.htm
http://thewebfairy.com/911/h-effect/antenna.htm
http://thewebfairy.com/911/h-effect/bent.htm
http://thewebfairy.com/911/h-effect/briefcase.htm
http://thewebfairy.com/911/h-effect/calder.htm
http://thewebfairy.com/911/h-effect/doorknob.htm
http://thewebfairy.com/911/h-effect/filingcabinet.htm
http://thewebfairy.com/911/h-effect/globe.htm
http://thewebfairy.com/911/h-effect/idcards.htm

[alexg]

Originally Posted by MortFurd

"Debunk" in what way?

Freaky things happen during chaotic events. Do you see any reason to doubt the claim that that particular piece of iron was not bent into a horseshoe shape by the collapse of one of the WTC buildings?

Do you doubt:
1. The source of the beam (really from WTC?)
2. That it could have been bent into that shape by the collapse?

The cts seem to think it would take thousands of degrees to bend that beam and thus either nukes or destructo beams were used.

I say beam got hot under a big load and beam got bent but I'm using my common sense understanding and would like to show them some science on this.

[MortFurd]

Originally Posted by alexg

The cts seem to think it would take thousands of degrees to bend that beam and thus either nukes or destructo beams were used.

I say beam got hot under a big load and beam got bent but I'm using my common sense understanding and would like to show them some science on this.

Ah.

Good. Then Lurker and RWGuinn seem to have provided you with some ammo. "Fill 'em full of facts."

(Kind of the reverse of "Fill 'em full of holes.")

[alexg]

Originally Posted by rwguinn

Steel has a modulus of 29.9x10^6 psi. This is the slope of the stress/strain curve.
A36 steel has a yield strength of 36000psi. This means it starts bending at about 0.1% strain. It fractures at about 7-8% strain. Strain si measured in (deflection/original length). It is dimensionless.
When P=Force/Area>36000 psi, steel bends. If the steel is warm, that value goes down, and the steel will bend farther without fracturing.
That is how horseshoes are made, on a (usually) smaller scale.
Paul Bunyon's horse (if he trades Babe in) would need shoes that big.
Need more?

Thanks rwguinn. That will help. May I quote you at the IMDB?

[Gravy]

I'm with MortFurd. It's the CT's job to provide evidence for their claims. If they won't do so, no debunking is needed. Your explanation was simple and reasonable: the steel bent under heat and strain.

The CTs should contact these people and tell them that what they claim to do is impossible:

http://www.steelstraightening.com/
http://www.flameoninc.com/
http://danrdaltoninc.com/

[rwguinn]

Originally Posted by alexg

Thanks rwguinn. That will help. May I quote you at the IMDB?

If you find it useful, go ahead.

[maccy]

If it's evidence of some nefariousness, why was it "selected to be preserved for future generations"? Does the secret government flip from being fiendishly clever to really dumb?

Also, I thought that all the evidence was shipped to China to be recycled?

[A W Smith]

we used to bend 1 5/8 0.95 wall 4130 chromoly tubing into 90 degree bends. With 10 inch radius in the hossfeld bender with absolutely no heat at all. Big deal a horseshoe bend. How much more ridiculous can they get? oh don't answer that. I'm not ready for a Judaism.

[jhunter1163]

It's something that starts with "horsesh", all right.

[A W Smith]

that should read. "I am not ready for a Judyism"

[beachnut]

Originally Posted by alexg

has the 'horseshoe' http://thewebfairy.com/911/h-effect/horseshoe.htm been properly debunked here. If not, would someone with requiste expertise please do so. Thanks.

ETa

I'm assuming beam got hot while supporting a bunch of weight and simply got bent but the troofers seem to think theres something impossible about this.

What does it mean? God did it? Why are they so nuts?

Thermite did it? NO
Explosives did it? NO
Heat and the gravity destruction of the WTC did it? UH

NO??? PROOF of beam weapon on the nut case webfarcy web site!

JUDY, oh Judy Wood, you have won?...

The webfarcy is the most disrespectful CT nut case I have seen.

Debunking this tripe is a waste or is it. Will people like 28th takeover and have all non-CT people gassed?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

The beam undoubtedly show the effects of working while warm not cold, the metal shows that the bending happened while the metal was liquefied, about 700-800c would be sufficient to Liquidize the steel to bend like that.
Also I am not going by the horse shoe bend but by other factors apparent in the beams structure to make that assessment. Metal will bend when heated even when heated below the point where it exhibits blackbody radiation-glows. The fires were hot enough to liquidize and bend the beam.
Liquidize does not mean to actually melt the steel just to make it more toward the liquid form.
In other words you can hold a Liquidized beam, for molten beams however you need a vessel to contain the Liquid metal.
I find that CTERs generally do not know the difference between Liquidize, and Liquid, or much about the steel and other materials in general.
I bend metal all the time, some times with only a small flame and slow bending, it really depends on the type, and shape, as well as what I am constructing.

[Scientologist]

How about a good old Maddox debunking:

IF THIS IS EVIDENCE THE GOVERNMENT WAS IN ON 9/11, WHY WOULD THEY PRESERVE IT FOR ****'S SAKE?

[Architect]

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw

I find that CTERs generally do not know the difference between Liquidize, and Liquid, or much about the steel and other materials in general.

Which is why, in Europe, we would simply say plasticise or soften.

[Mancman]

Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe

they have some dopy stuff in there
http://thewebfairy.com/911/h-effect/briefcase.htm
http://thewebfairy.com/911/h-effect/doorknob.htm
http://thewebfairy.com/911/h-effect/idcards.htm

On one page there is a video of someone saying they haven't yet seen a computer, a door, or a doorknob. This is presented as suspicious.

The other pages show a bag and plastic ID cards which survived the collapse. This is presented as suspicious.




Oh, and the video in the first post of this is fake. As well all know, every piece of steel was thrown straight onto the first barge heading for China with no investigation taking place.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Originally Posted by Architect

Which is why, in Europe, we would simply say plasticise or soften.

I tried those words too Plasticize, and all I got back from the Cter was look dude the twin towers were made of hard steel not plastics.
MY favorite one was the guy telling me steel does not soften below its melting point, you just can not debate Idiots, they just do not have the brains to understand complex terms like fire, heat.
All they understand is, Buildings fall go boom= Government did it, inside job. There is simply no room in there minds for anything else.

[Architect]

I don't know about in the US, but in Scotland secondary school classes (ie ages 12 to 18) are streamed by ability, so of course you forget just how stupid some people are very, very quickly.......(sigh)

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Originally Posted by maccy

If it's evidence of some nefariousness, why was it "selected to be preserved for future generations"? Does the secret government flip from being fiendishly clever to really dumb?

Heh. It's the quantum properties of government. They actually exist in both states (fiendishly clever and really dumb) at the same time.

[maccy]

I think they see all this as a game of spot the oddities. If they get enough oddities they win, it doesn't matter if they can't build a coherent picture, or if their oddities contradict each other.

[MRC_Hans]

Another remark: If a steel beam is under compressive force while bending, it can bend much further without breaking. The reason a beam breaks is that its shear strength is exceeded on the outside of the bend, but if it is already compressed the bend line (I don't know if that's the right English term, but I am referring to the line in the material where the material is neither shortened or elongated) will move towards the outer rim. Make the compressive force high enough and it can even move outside the material.

And of course, finding a steel beam that has been under a lot of compressive force among the WTC wreckage shouldn't surprise any sensible person.

Hans

[MG1962]

What I dont get - who is the guy in the overalls claiming the iron (????) should have fracture marks etc etc. Like I could put a utility belt and hard hat on and prove the thing came from Death Star, and would anyone know if I was for real or not.

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw

The beam undoubtedly show the effects of working while warm not cold, the metal shows that the bending happened while the metal was liquefied, about 700-800c would be sufficient to Liquidize the steel to bend like that.
Also I am not going by the horse shoe bend but by other factors apparent in the beams structure to make that assessment. Metal will bend when heated even when heated below the point where it exhibits blackbody radiation-glows. The fires were hot enough to liquidize and bend the beam.
Liquidize does not mean to actually melt the steel just to make it more toward the liquid form.
In other words you can hold a Liquidized beam, for molten beams however you need a vessel to contain the Liquid metal.
I find that CTERs generally do not know the difference between Liquidize, and Liquid, or much about the steel and other materials in general.
I bend metal all the time, some times with only a small flame and slow bending, it really depends on the type, and shape, as well as what I am constructing.

Um, I would avoid ANY use of the term "liquidize" due to CT penchant for misquoting.

I would actually keep it simple and say that every engineer knows that increasing temperature increases a metal's ductility. Ductility is the amount of strain before failure.

Lurker

[JimBenArm]

Originally Posted by Lurker

Um, I would avoid ANY use of the term "liquidize" due to CT penchant for misquoting.

I would actually keep it simple and say that every engineer knows that increasing temperature increases a metal's ductility. Ductility is the amount of strain before failure.

Lurker

Yeah, they'll be saying "they claim the steel melted, they're so stupid!"

[joobz]

Originally Posted by Architect

Which is why, in Europe, we would simply say plasticise or soften.

Yup, good ole' time-temperature superposition.

[Tirdun]

Originally Posted by A W Smith

I'm not ready for a Judaism.

Glad you clarified, my brain tripped over this.

[rwguinn]

Originally Posted by Architect

Which is why, in Europe, we would simply say plasticise or soften.

We say that the metal was loaded in the plastic region here, too. Unfortunately, most of the world thinks plastic is made from hydrocarbons.
Sigh.

[rwguinn]

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

Another remark: If a steel beam is under compressive force while bending,

AKA Buckling loads

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

it can bend much further without breaking. The reason a beam breaks is that its shear strength is exceeded on the outside of the bend, but if it is already compressed the bend line (I don't know if that's the right English term, but I am referring to the line in the material where the material is neither shortened or elongated)

That's the "Neutral axis"

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

will move towards the outer rim.

Outer fiber

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

Make the compressive force high enough and it can even move outside the material.

And of course, finding a steel beam that has been under a lot of compressive force among the WTC wreckage shouldn't surprise any sensible person.

Hans

you think?
Just shows to go ya that a PE is not required to understand the basics, MRC_Hans! Well done