"Randi owes me a million dollars"

Show me · 25th January 2007, 08:02 AM

Hi All,

I'm new as a poster here, but I've been a reader of the site for a while now and a long time follower of the JREF and the challenge. I think I can't post URL's but I'll try, because this is what prompted me to get an account and post.

I saw this link in one of my RSS feeds "James Randi owes me a million dollars". It's on Matt Blaze's blog. You'll have to use google to find it (the web site is called "crypto.com", if I type any more it won't let me post).

Blaze is a VERY controversial figure in the security world, but he may have a point about the challenge. If you use google you'll see what I mean about controversial.

Maybe somone can find the URL and post it, and Mr. Randi should respond to this guy.

Al "Show Me"

RenaissanceBiker · 25th January 2007, 08:06 AM

You can post the text of the link and I'll turn it into a URL. Use commas instead of periods or some other cheat.

Show me · 25th January 2007, 08:08 AM

Thanks Biker.

www crypto com / blog / psychic_cryptanalysis /

(Test the link before you post not sure I copied right)

Moochie · 25th January 2007, 08:23 AM

Are you him?

M.

Just read the blog entry -- fascinating stuff.

Show me · 25th January 2007, 08:29 AM

No, I'm not him! I met him a couple of times at conferences, but I don't know him personally.

Cuddles · 25th January 2007, 08:36 AM

Unfortunately for him, whether he is correct about the contents or not, he has not applied for the challenge and therefore Randi does not owe him anything.

RenaissanceBiker · 25th January 2007, 08:40 AM

Link: http://www.crypto.com/blog/psychic_cryptanalysis/

Has Randi confirmed what is in the box?

Buckaroo · 25th January 2007, 08:42 AM

I was prepared for the worst, but it's actually a pretty good article.

For those who haven't read it, he's not being serious about having won the challenge, although his topic is serious.

robinson · 25th January 2007, 11:43 AM

http://www.crypto.com/blog/psychic_cryptanalysis/

hmmm...

nathan · 25th January 2007, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Buckaroo

For those who haven't read it, he's not being serious about having won the challenge, although his topic is serious.

I was surprised Randi did the ISBN thing again. Last time he did it as one of his Swift challenges, several people broke it. Unfortunately for me, although I new what dictionary he had ISBN'd, I didn't have it so I fell back to scaling the page numbers against a dictionary I did have and then selecting from his list of 20 objects as to which one I thought he meant.

He really should do some smarter crypto.

The Atheist · 25th January 2007, 01:23 PM

Can't be right

Excellent blog. If you know the guy, Show, why not get him to join. He advertises the site on his blog, so is clearly a supporter.

I smell coincidence. Surely Randi would have covered his tracks a lot better than that. Smart work, though.

ChristineR · 25th January 2007, 01:42 PM

Interesting...I'm guessing that Randi expected (or hoped) someone would crack the message in the Swift commentary and see that it was in fact a CD. Perhaps Randi will respond with yes--now tell me what CD and win a million!

In that case, read the commentary as "there is a CD in my locker, and I challenge the remote viewers to tell me which one."

How many guesses can I have?

AgingYoung · 25th January 2007, 01:59 PM

My guess is it's Willie Nelson's.... Mammas Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up to Be Skeptics.

Gene

Show me · 25th January 2007, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Can't be right

Excellent blog. If you know the guy, Show, why not get him to join. He advertises the site on his blog, so is clearly a supporter.

I smell coincidence. Surely Randi would have covered his tracks a lot better than that. Smart work, though.

I don't know him personally. I met him a couple times at conferences, but I doubt he'd have any idea who I am. I think his email should be easy to track down though.

Al "Show Me"

cullennz · 25th January 2007, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Buckaroo

I was prepared for the worst, but it's actually a pretty good article.

Same. It is rather good.

trader08 · 26th January 2007, 12:18 AM

I've read the article too, and he clearly states how he determined what's in the box, he's decrypting something and not showing paranormal powers.

Having said that, I don't believe that's what is in the box either. That would seem to be too easy. If I were to be the person to put something in the box. I would not use those numbers to lead you to what is in the box but lead you to what you think is in the box, a false answer that seems to fit.

I mean isn't misdirection the OLDEST trick in the book?

Show me · 26th January 2007, 12:26 PM

The thing I'm worried about is if the Dames group reads the post and then claims they can remote view the box, Mr. Randi could have a hard time explaining things, or at least they could do some serious PR damage. I think it may have been irresponsible for Blaze to post it without checking with JREF first, but I guess the damage is done.

NiallM · 26th January 2007, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Show me

The thing I'm worried about is if the Dames group reads the post and then claims they can remote view the box, Mr. Randi could have a hard time explaining things, or at least they could do some serious PR damage. I think it may have been irresponsible for Blaze to post it without checking with JREF first, but I guess the damage is done.

Not in the slightest. If they claimed the million he can simply indicate that the matter was already public knowledge. Not that I accept yet that the item is as described.

Kilgore Trout · 26th January 2007, 01:03 PM

Following up a little on the misdirection idea, possibly Mr. Randi wants the Dames group to guess, to show they were wrong; it would be better than silence.

And by someone else posting the description, it may further the argument that they were going on Matt Blaze's information (as opposed, perhaps, to them claiming they were just "looking" in the wrong locker or office.) That might be a stretch, but a thought I had anyway..

Show me · 26th January 2007, 01:13 PM

I don't know about that. I'll have to re read it, but didn't Blaze break the code to "prove" that the box has a CD? If it has something else in it, couldn't the group now use the code to make it look (to the public) like the box had a CD all along and JREF is trying to switch to avoid paying?

largeprimenumber · 28th January 2007, 05:30 AM

I think the point of the article is not necessarily that he broke the code, but that there's not a good solution to the problem of verification: a method either requires trust, or is opaque to most people and implies trust.

Show me · 28th January 2007, 11:40 AM

Largeprime, I re-read it and you're right. I think the most important part of the article is this: "Randi, for his part, could exploit this ambiguity to disavow a valid psychic claim, should one happen to come along." As long as thats true this kind of challenge doesn't serve JREF very well, since there could be an endless game of finger pointing in the media if someone claims to have done it.

By the way I emailed Blaze (the address is in the post), and got a reply from him today. He says he spoke to Randi and told him at the Las Vegas TAM last week. If that's true I take back my objection to him posting it.

Al "Show Me"

The Atheist · 28th January 2007, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by trader08

I mean isn't misdirection the OLDEST trick in the book?

Absolutely - the guy's a magician, after all!

My pick is that he's encouraging psychics to have a go at coming out and saying, "It's a compact disc, mostly likely recorded by......." so they can trumpet having solved the puzzle. Giving Randi the opportunity of saying, "well, I know why you guessed that - but it's a cellphone.

Which means I get the mio, because:

0679438866 is also the bar-code for a cellphone.

It comes with a 275 mb memory and a 14 mp camera.

Or, maybe it's that auction number at E-Bay....

Big Al · 21st February 2007, 06:17 AM

I guessed the code indicated an ISBN, too, but I don't have a copy of that dictionary.

Anyway, perhaps it's not a CD - its a Washington DC phone directory. Or a Corps Diplomatique (CD) flag.

Even if it were a CD, if any person truly was remote viewing, you'd think they'd be really keen to prove it by giving the artist and title.

aggle-rithm · 21st February 2007, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Show me

Largeprime, I re-read it and you're right. I think the most important part of the article is this: "Randi, for his part, could exploit this ambiguity to disavow a valid psychic claim, should one happen to come along." As long as thats true this kind of challenge doesn't serve JREF very well, since there could be an endless game of finger pointing in the media if someone claims to have done it.

Perhaps -- but a true test of psychic abilities would have no ambiguities, according to the rules. Both parties would agree on a protocol that would result in a clear, unambiguous result, so no judging is required.

This was a situation where no psychic powers were required -- perfectly mundane methods could be used to determine the contents of the box.

Show me · 21st February 2007, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

Perhaps -- but a true test of psychic abilities would have no ambiguities, according to the rules. Both parties would agree on a protocol that would result in a clear, unambiguous result, so no judging is required.

This was a situation where no psychic powers were required -- perfectly mundane methods could be used to determine the contents of the box.

Yes, that's exactly correct. You seem to think that you've somehow refuted something I said, when in fact you've simply restated my (and Blaze's) original point.

Do you think Blaze is actualy claiming he has psychic powers? I didn't read his blog posting that way at all.

Show me · 21st February 2007, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Big Al

I guessed the code indicated an ISBN, too, but I don't have a copy of that dictionary.

Anyway, perhaps it's not a CD - its a Washington DC phone directory. Or a Corps Diplomatique (CD) flag.

Even if it were a CD, if any person truly was remote viewing, you'd think they'd be really keen to prove it by giving the artist and title.

According to a couple of SWIFTs ago, it was a CD, and the object and code have now been changed.

Big Al · 22nd February 2007, 07:53 AM

I think the code just muddies the water. I understand why the woosters would demand it, expecting a red-faced Randi to suddenly switch the contents when some red-hot RVer immediately nailed the contents, but it does leave the possibility of being cracked, and then attributing the correct "guess" to arcane powers.

I'm sure there's a better way of proving good faith while still maintaining security.

25th January 2007, 08:02 AM	#1
Show me New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12	"Randi owes me a million dollars" Hi All, I'm new as a poster here, but I've been a reader of the site for a while now and a long time follower of the JREF and the challenge. I think I can't post URL's but I'll try, because this is what prompted me to get an account and post. I saw this link in one of my RSS feeds "James Randi owes me a million dollars". It's on Matt Blaze's blog. You'll have to use google to find it (the web site is called "crypto.com", if I type any more it won't let me post). Blaze is a VERY controversial figure in the security world, but he may have a point about the challenge. If you use google you'll see what I mean about controversial. Maybe somone can find the URL and post it, and Mr. Randi should respond to this guy. Al "Show Me"
Show me New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12

25th January 2007, 08:06 AM	#2
RenaissanceBiker Eats shoots and leaves. Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South Carolina Posts: 2,434	You can post the text of the link and I'll turn it into a URL. Use commas instead of periods or some other cheat.
	__________________ "Truth does not contradict truth." - St. Augustine "Faith often contradicts faith. Therefore faith is not an indication of truth." - RenaissanceBiker

25th January 2007, 08:08 AM	#3
Show me New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12	Thanks Biker. www crypto com / blog / psychic_cryptanalysis / (Test the link before you post not sure I copied right)
Show me New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12

25th January 2007, 08:23 AM	#4
Moochie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,371	Are you him? M. Just read the blog entry -- fascinating stuff.
Moochie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,371	Last edited by Moochie; 25th January 2007 at 08:31 AM.

25th January 2007, 08:29 AM	#5
Show me New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12	No, I'm not him! I met him a couple of times at conferences, but I don't know him personally.
Show me New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12

25th January 2007, 08:36 AM	#6
Cuddles Decoy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land full of pink fluffy sheeps and bunnies Posts: 10,322	Unfortunately for him, whether he is correct about the contents or not, he has not applied for the challenge and therefore Randi does not owe him anything.
	__________________ This space not left unintentionally blank.

25th January 2007, 08:40 AM	#7
RenaissanceBiker Eats shoots and leaves. Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South Carolina Posts: 2,434	Link: http://www.crypto.com/blog/psychic_cryptanalysis/ Has Randi confirmed what is in the box?
	__________________ "Truth does not contradict truth." - St. Augustine "Faith often contradicts faith. Therefore faith is not an indication of truth." - RenaissanceBiker Last edited by RenaissanceBiker; 25th January 2007 at 08:45 AM.

25th January 2007, 08:42 AM	#8
Buckaroo Muse Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Washington, D.C. Posts: 926	I was prepared for the worst, but it's actually a pretty good article. For those who haven't read it, he's not being serious about having won the challenge, although his topic is serious.
	__________________ "You ask me do I love you... does the pope live in the woods? Quad Erat Demonstrandum, baby... " "Oh! You speak French!" -- Airhead, by Thomas Dolby "When you're slapped you'll take it and like it." -- Sam Spade

25th January 2007, 11:43 AM	#9
robinson Banned Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Washington D.C. Posts: 6,136	http://www.crypto.com/blog/psychic_cryptanalysis/ hmmm...

25th January 2007, 01:06 PM	#10
nathan witty nothing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Renaissance Italy Posts: 1,793	Originally Posted by Buckaroo For those who haven't read it, he's not being serious about having won the challenge, although his topic is serious. I was surprised Randi did the ISBN thing again. Last time he did it as one of his Swift challenges, several people broke it. Unfortunately for me, although I new what dictionary he had ISBN'd, I didn't have it so I fell back to scaling the page numbers against a dictionary I did have and then selecting from his list of 20 objects as to which one I thought he meant. He really should do some smarter crypto.

25th January 2007, 01:23 PM	#11
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,727	Can't be right Excellent blog. If you know the guy, Show, why not get him to join. He advertises the site on his blog, so is clearly a supporter. I smell coincidence. Surely Randi would have covered his tracks a lot better than that. Smart work, though.
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

25th January 2007, 01:42 PM	#12
ChristineR Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,071	Interesting...I'm guessing that Randi expected (or hoped) someone would crack the message in the Swift commentary and see that it was in fact a CD. Perhaps Randi will respond with yes--now tell me what CD and win a million! In that case, read the commentary as "there is a CD in my locker, and I challenge the remote viewers to tell me which one." How many guesses can I have?
ChristineR Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,071	__________________ Avatar (c) Neopets.com

25th January 2007, 01:59 PM	#13
AgingYoung Muse Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 973	My guess is it's Willie Nelson's.... Mammas Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up to Be Skeptics. Gene
AgingYoung Muse Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 973	__________________ If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?

25th January 2007, 05:03 PM	#14
Show me New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12	Originally Posted by The Atheist Can't be right Excellent blog. If you know the guy, Show, why not get him to join. He advertises the site on his blog, so is clearly a supporter. I smell coincidence. Surely Randi would have covered his tracks a lot better than that. Smart work, though. I don't know him personally. I met him a couple times at conferences, but I doubt he'd have any idea who I am. I think his email should be easy to track down though. Al "Show Me"
Show me New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12

25th January 2007, 06:00 PM	#15
cullennz Student Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NZ Posts: 45	Originally Posted by Buckaroo I was prepared for the worst, but it's actually a pretty good article. Same. It is rather good.

26th January 2007, 12:18 AM	#16
trader08 New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 9	I've read the article too, and he clearly states how he determined what's in the box, he's decrypting something and not showing paranormal powers. Having said that, I don't believe that's what is in the box either. That would seem to be too easy. If I were to be the person to put something in the box. I would not use those numbers to lead you to what is in the box but lead you to what you think is in the box, a false answer that seems to fit. I mean isn't misdirection the OLDEST trick in the book?
trader08 New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 9

26th January 2007, 12:26 PM	#17
Show me New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12	The thing I'm worried about is if the Dames group reads the post and then claims they can remote view the box, Mr. Randi could have a hard time explaining things, or at least they could do some serious PR damage. I think it may have been irresponsible for Blaze to post it without checking with JREF first, but I guess the damage is done.
Show me New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12

26th January 2007, 12:43 PM	#18
NiallM Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Montmartre, Paris Posts: 334	Originally Posted by Show me The thing I'm worried about is if the Dames group reads the post and then claims they can remote view the box, Mr. Randi could have a hard time explaining things, or at least they could do some serious PR damage. I think it may have been irresponsible for Blaze to post it without checking with JREF first, but I guess the damage is done. Not in the slightest. If they claimed the million he can simply indicate that the matter was already public knowledge. Not that I accept yet that the item is as described.

26th January 2007, 01:03 PM	#19
Kilgore Trout Wuse Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Tralfamadore Posts: 1,313	Following up a little on the misdirection idea, possibly Mr. Randi wants the Dames group to guess, to show they were wrong; it would be better than silence. And by someone else posting the description, it may further the argument that they were going on Matt Blaze's information (as opposed, perhaps, to them claiming they were just "looking" in the wrong locker or office.) That might be a stretch, but a thought I had anyway..

26th January 2007, 01:13 PM	#20
Show me New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12	I don't know about that. I'll have to re read it, but didn't Blaze break the code to "prove" that the box has a CD? If it has something else in it, couldn't the group now use the code to make it look (to the public) like the box had a CD all along and JREF is trying to switch to avoid paying?
Show me New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12

28th January 2007, 05:30 AM	#21
largeprimenumber Scholar Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 84	I think the point of the article is not necessarily that he broke the code, but that there's not a good solution to the problem of verification: a method either requires trust, or is opaque to most people and implies trust.
largeprimenumber Scholar Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 84

28th January 2007, 11:40 AM	#22
Show me New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12	Largeprime, I re-read it and you're right. I think the most important part of the article is this: "Randi, for his part, could exploit this ambiguity to disavow a valid psychic claim, should one happen to come along." As long as thats true this kind of challenge doesn't serve JREF very well, since there could be an endless game of finger pointing in the media if someone claims to have done it. By the way I emailed Blaze (the address is in the post), and got a reply from him today. He says he spoke to Randi and told him at the Las Vegas TAM last week. If that's true I take back my objection to him posting it. Al "Show Me"
Show me New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12

28th January 2007, 12:08 PM	#23
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,727	Originally Posted by trader08 I mean isn't misdirection the OLDEST trick in the book? Absolutely - the guy's a magician, after all! My pick is that he's encouraging psychics to have a go at coming out and saying, "It's a compact disc, mostly likely recorded by......." so they can trumpet having solved the puzzle. Giving Randi the opportunity of saying, "well, I know why you guessed that - but it's a cellphone. Which means I get the mio, because: 0679438866 is also the bar-code for a cellphone. It comes with a 275 mb memory and a 14 mp camera. Or, maybe it's that auction number at E-Bay....
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

21st February 2007, 06:17 AM	#24
Big Al Mage Questor Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: La-la Land Posts: 806	I guessed the code indicated an ISBN, too, but I don't have a copy of that dictionary. Anyway, perhaps it's not a CD - its a Washington DC phone directory. Or a Corps Diplomatique (CD) flag. Even if it were a CD, if any person truly was remote viewing, you'd think they'd be really keen to prove it by giving the artist and title.
	__________________ I don't believe in God. I stopped needing a comfort blanket a long time ago.

21st February 2007, 06:46 AM	#25
aggle-rithm Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 6,746	Originally Posted by Show me Largeprime, I re-read it and you're right. I think the most important part of the article is this: "Randi, for his part, could exploit this ambiguity to disavow a valid psychic claim, should one happen to come along." As long as thats true this kind of challenge doesn't serve JREF very well, since there could be an endless game of finger pointing in the media if someone claims to have done it. Perhaps -- but a true test of psychic abilities would have no ambiguities, according to the rules. Both parties would agree on a protocol that would result in a clear, unambiguous result, so no judging is required. This was a situation where no psychic powers were required -- perfectly mundane methods could be used to determine the contents of the box.
	__________________ To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.

21st February 2007, 12:42 PM	#26
Show me New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12	Originally Posted by aggle-rithm Perhaps -- but a true test of psychic abilities would have no ambiguities, according to the rules. Both parties would agree on a protocol that would result in a clear, unambiguous result, so no judging is required. This was a situation where no psychic powers were required -- perfectly mundane methods could be used to determine the contents of the box. Yes, that's exactly correct. You seem to think that you've somehow refuted something I said, when in fact you've simply restated my (and Blaze's) original point. Do you think Blaze is actualy claiming he has psychic powers? I didn't read his blog posting that way at all.
Show me New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12

21st February 2007, 12:44 PM	#27
Show me New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12	Originally Posted by Big Al I guessed the code indicated an ISBN, too, but I don't have a copy of that dictionary. Anyway, perhaps it's not a CD - its a Washington DC phone directory. Or a Corps Diplomatique (CD) flag. Even if it were a CD, if any person truly was remote viewing, you'd think they'd be really keen to prove it by giving the artist and title. According to a couple of SWIFTs ago, it was a CD, and the object and code have now been changed.
Show me New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12

22nd February 2007, 07:53 AM	#28
Big Al Mage Questor Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: La-la Land Posts: 806	I think the code just muddies the water. I understand why the woosters would demand it, expecting a red-faced Randi to suddenly switch the contents when some red-hot RVer immediately nailed the contents, but it does leave the possibility of being cracked, and then attributing the correct "guess" to arcane powers. I'm sure there's a better way of proving good faith while still maintaining security.
	__________________ I don't believe in God. I stopped needing a comfort blanket a long time ago.