What if the Americans Had Lost the American Revolutionary War? - Page 2

Kaylee · 20th February 2007, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Sir Robin Goodfellow

My guess, just a guess, mind you, is that the US would have eventually gained independence the same way we did up here. Having colonies (and having to defend them, with all the costs that entails) eventually became less profitable, to the point where the United Kingdom would have found it easier to just let the North American colonies sort themselves out.

Maybe. On the other hand it seems that the relationship between the 13 colonies and Great Britain was much more antagonistic than the one between Canada and Great Britain. That being the case I think the Americans would have eventually tried to rebell again if they had lost the first attempt.

But I have sometimes wondered why the Canadians got along better with Great Britain than the Americans did. Maybe they actually didn't get along that much better -- I don't know Canadian history well at all. Or maybe having so many French colonists nearby make the British colonists identify more stronly with England? NY had many Dutch colonists and it didn't seem to have the same effect. But than again, NY was just one of 13 colonies. Or perhaps this was just a side effect of a more numerous population, assuming that the colonies had more colonists than Canada. Having more people would mean having more people of every personality type, including having just enough people rebellious in nature to make a success of it? If Canada had been more numerous perhaps they would have rebelled also?

Unfortunately, I didn't learn much about Canadian history in school. Perhaps you have some theories SRG? Maybe this was discussed in some of your Canadian history classes?

Quote:

Hard to say how the North American map might look today. Perhaps a larger Mexico, and Alaska still Russian?

Russia was worried that Great Britain was just going to grab Alaska. They needed money and didn't believe that they would be able to defend and hold that territory. The Americans purchased the land out of appreciation for Russian being an ally during the Civil War (just recently over) and to annoy Great Britain.
Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_purchase

If the Americans hadn't won the War of Independence I suspect that one of the side effects would have been that Alaska would be part of Canada today.

Björn Toulouse · 27th February 2007, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by Shera

What would have been the effect on American, English and World history if the Americans had lost the American Revolution?

Less dentists?

Dave1001 · 27th February 2007, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by Björn Toulouse

Originally Posted by Shera

What would have been the effect on American, English and World history if the Americans had lost the American Revolution?

Less dentists?

or fewer grammatical errors.

UnrepentantSinner · 5th March 2007, 09:00 PM

I think most plausible scnenarios have been mentioned so far, but I didn't notice anyone pointing out one of my pet alternatives: Australia, at least as we know it, likely wouldn't exist. Without the loss of Georgia, there would have been less or perhaps no impetus to develop penal colonies in Australia and the settlement patterns would have been very different.

Kaylee · 7th March 2007, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner

I think most plausible scnenarios have been mentioned so far, but I didn't notice anyone pointing out one of my pet alternatives: Australia, at least as we know it, likely wouldn't exist. Without the loss of Georgia, there would have been less or perhaps no impetus to develop penal colonies in Australia and the settlement patterns would have been very different.

Fascinating idea, but I'm not sure that I agree with it. There use to be an expression: "The sun never sets on the British Empire." For that to happen the English must have been really driven to explore, conquer and settle the world.

However, IIRC, the interior of Australia is very inhospitable. Perhaps fewer people would have immigrated there (voluntarily or via the penal colonies) if England had kept control of the Americas. But to ignore it altogether? The coast is beautiful, and its huge! It must have been very attractive to Great Britian and her expansive tendencies.

Captain James Cook had just finished charting that area of the world at around the time of the American Revolution. So the English didn't really have the option to try to settle Austrailia earlier because they didn't have enough information about it. Given that I can't think of how your theory can be proven or disproven... Still, an interesting idea!

And I had forgotten that England used the American colonies to get rid of her convicts and debtors.

20th February 2007, 10:32 AM	#41
Kaylee Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,838	Originally Posted by Sir Robin Goodfellow My guess, just a guess, mind you, is that the US would have eventually gained independence the same way we did up here. Having colonies (and having to defend them, with all the costs that entails) eventually became less profitable, to the point where the United Kingdom would have found it easier to just let the North American colonies sort themselves out. Maybe. On the other hand it seems that the relationship between the 13 colonies and Great Britain was much more antagonistic than the one between Canada and Great Britain. That being the case I think the Americans would have eventually tried to rebell again if they had lost the first attempt. But I have sometimes wondered why the Canadians got along better with Great Britain than the Americans did. Maybe they actually didn't get along that much better -- I don't know Canadian history well at all. Or maybe having so many French colonists nearby make the British colonists identify more stronly with England? NY had many Dutch colonists and it didn't seem to have the same effect. But than again, NY was just one of 13 colonies. Or perhaps this was just a side effect of a more numerous population, assuming that the colonies had more colonists than Canada. Having more people would mean having more people of every personality type, including having just enough people rebellious in nature to make a success of it? If Canada had been more numerous perhaps they would have rebelled also? Unfortunately, I didn't learn much about Canadian history in school. Perhaps you have some theories SRG? Maybe this was discussed in some of your Canadian history classes? Quote: Hard to say how the North American map might look today. Perhaps a larger Mexico, and Alaska still Russian? Russia was worried that Great Britain was just going to grab Alaska. They needed money and didn't believe that they would be able to defend and hold that territory. The Americans purchased the land out of appreciation for Russian being an ally during the Civil War (just recently over) and to annoy Great Britain. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_purchase If the Americans hadn't won the War of Independence I suspect that one of the side effects would have been that Alaska would be part of Canada today.
Kaylee Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,838	__________________ When everyone think alike, no one thinks very much. -- Walter Lippman'' Last edited by Kaylee; 20th February 2007 at 10:39 AM. Reason: clarity

27th February 2007, 08:27 PM	#42
Björn Toulouse Cavitus Rectum Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: miles from Nowhere Posts: 1,406	Originally Posted by Shera What would have been the effect on American, English and World history if the Americans had lost the American Revolution? Less dentists?
	__________________ The most complete and happy victory is this: to compel one's enemy to give up his purpose, while suffering no harm oneself. Belisarius

27th February 2007, 09:15 PM	#43
Dave1001 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,717	Originally Posted by Björn Toulouse Originally Posted by Shera What would have been the effect on American, English and World history if the Americans had lost the American Revolution? Less dentists? or fewer grammatical errors.
Dave1001 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,717	__________________ I'm here to discuss ideas, not to get personal. I won't criticize you personally, please don't criticize me personally. I won't direct ad hominems at you, please don't direct ad hominems at me. I won't attack you or put you down, please don't attack me or put me down. Thanks.

5th March 2007, 09:00 PM	#44
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,357	I think most plausible scnenarios have been mentioned so far, but I didn't notice anyone pointing out one of my pet alternatives: Australia, at least as we know it, likely wouldn't exist. Without the loss of Georgia, there would have been less or perhaps no impetus to develop penal colonies in Australia and the settlement patterns would have been very different.
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

7th March 2007, 12:32 PM	#45
Kaylee Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,838	Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner I think most plausible scnenarios have been mentioned so far, but I didn't notice anyone pointing out one of my pet alternatives: Australia, at least as we know it, likely wouldn't exist. Without the loss of Georgia, there would have been less or perhaps no impetus to develop penal colonies in Australia and the settlement patterns would have been very different. Fascinating idea, but I'm not sure that I agree with it. There use to be an expression: "The sun never sets on the British Empire." For that to happen the English must have been really driven to explore, conquer and settle the world. However, IIRC, the interior of Australia is very inhospitable. Perhaps fewer people would have immigrated there (voluntarily or via the penal colonies) if England had kept control of the Americas. But to ignore it altogether? The coast is beautiful, and its huge! It must have been very attractive to Great Britian and her expansive tendencies. Captain James Cook had just finished charting that area of the world at around the time of the American Revolution. So the English didn't really have the option to try to settle Austrailia earlier because they didn't have enough information about it. Given that I can't think of how your theory can be proven or disproven... Still, an interesting idea! And I had forgotten that England used the American colonies to get rid of her convicts and debtors.
Kaylee Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,838	__________________ When everyone think alike, no one thinks very much. -- Walter Lippman''