McMartin preschool, ted gunderson, by requestI am sceptical about Ritual Abuse and nI

[jacque]

I don't even know where to start...
I am the parent of a child who attended the preschool and was diagnosed as having been sexually molested.
I am the parent who decided to hire an archaeologist to look for tunnels under the preschool building. Even though others have it for sale, I leaglly own that scientific report.
I am also the parent who let ted gunderson infiltrate our case.
Google me if you'd like, Jackie McGauley.
I'm not very computer saavy, I look at my fingers when I type and I have to use spell check on every post, so please be patient with me.
I hope this is the correct place to even start this thread.
Here's where I am coming from;
I never liked to use the term ritual abuse. It was coined by Dr Lawrence Pazder of Canada, author of the book Michelle Remembers and now deceased. The producer of the 20/20 shows about our case brought Larry and Michelle, staunch Catholics, to my house one afternoon in about 2004 to meet with parents. They insisted, from what they had heard, that our case was ritual abuse.
I am sure people involved in the case know more about it than I do and I wouldn't try to tell them what to think. I know some therapists who had some of our kids in therapy say the case was ritual abuse. Larry had a definition of the term which we have to accept since he made up the term in the first place. That is basicaly; Abuse combined with a systematic use of symbols, ceremonies, and machinations designed and orchestrated to attain malevolent effects"

So, for what it is, I put myself out here.
Any questions?
Jacque

[jacque]

Oh, nooooooo-how can I fix the title of this thread????
I told you I can't type

[Terry]

edit -> go advanced. Or if it's too late, pm me what it is supposed to be and I can fix it.

[Mercutio]

As a parent, former daycare professional, and skeptic, I thank you for opening this thread. I am certain I will have specific questions, but I will first have to re-acquaint myself with the case.

[Luke T.]

I was one of the people who requested this topic. Thanks for starting it, Jackie.

So do you believe your child was molested by a satanic cult?

[Roadtoad]

I'm just posting here to keep up to date on this.

Jackie, don't sweat the small stuff. Just tell us what you have. We'll figure out the rest of it ourselves.

[LostAngeles]

I don't want to overwhelm you with questions since you said you were pretty busy over in the other thread, so I'll let you answer Luke's before I post mine, jacque.

[jacque]

Originally Posted by LostAngeles

I don't want to overwhelm you with questions since you said you were pretty busy over in the other thread, so I'll let you answer Luke's before I post mine, jacque.

Thanks! I anticipate having to go into my records sometimes to answer questions as accurately as possible, so forgive me if it takes a while.

Originally Posted by Luke T.

I was one of the people who requested this topic. Thanks for starting it, Jackie.

So do you believe your child was molested by a satanic cult?

No, no one has convincewd me of that.

[LostAngeles]

Jacque, the case is regarded as one of the first recorded cases of False Memory Syndrome. I grew up in the Boston area so I'm much more acquainted with the Fells Acre case.

Do you think that there was any abuse at all at the McMartin preschool or was the information the children gave the result of leading questions, or was it something in between?

[Lisa Simpson]

Jacque, I can change the title if you'd like. Just post what you want it to be.

The McMartin case was huge in SoCal. On the news constantly.

[Roadtoad]

One article regarding the case. I'm sure there's more.

[Roadtoad]

And, of course, there's this on Wikipedia...

Quote:

An excavation undertaken in May 1990 claimed to reveal tunnels under the McMartin Preschool. [4] A relevant quote from the summation is written as follows: "If the stories of the children were bogus fantasies, there is no excuse for the tunnels discovered under the school. If there really were tunnels, there is no excuse for the glib dismissal of any and all of the complaints of the children and their parents." The archaeologist's claims were refuted in a 1995 article published by the Institute for Psychological Therapies. The study showed that the concrete slab floor was undisturbed except for a small patch where the sewer line was tapped into. Once the slab was removed, there was no sign of any materials to line or hold up any tunnels, and there was no way for the defendants to fill in any purported tunnels once the investigation began. The report concluded that any disturbed soil under the slab was from the sewer line, and from construction fill buried under the slab, before it was poured. Some dated fill material under the slab was from the year 1940.

[Kil]

Originally Posted by LostAngeles

Jacque, the case is regarded as one of the first recorded cases of False Memory Syndrome. I grew up in the Boston area so I'm much more acquainted with the Fells Acre case.

Do you think that there was any abuse at all at the McMartin preschool or was the information the children gave the result of leading questions, or was it something in between?

False memory yes. Syndrome, I doubt it... This could get interesting.

[Foolmewunz]

Tunnels & Gunderson, et al...

Jackie,

Apologies, but you'll recognize the source on the below, and from that you'll know my view of this.

To other forumites,
The below link should be background reading.
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume7/j7_2_1.htm

Jackie,
There are so many questions, but I'll start with basic ones, and try to keep in line with the few that Luke has opened with.
If you don't believe in the ritual or satanic abuse idea, are you also saying you think this was FMS, or do you believe that abuse took place?
Do you still support the tunnel idea that you and Gunderson developed and promoted.
What are your feelings on Gunderson's credibility?

[Luke T.]

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Tunnels & Gunderson, et al...

Jackie,

Apologies, but you'll recognize the source on the below, and from that you'll know my view of this.

To other forumites,
The below link should be background reading.
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume7/j7_2_1.htm

Heh. I found that site, too. Lots of links to read at the bottom. Very interesting.

Other interesting links:

http://www.smwane.dk/content/view/123/30/ (Critical of the tunnel theory)

And a defender of Gunderson and the ritual satanic molestations: http://educate-yourself.org/tg/tgmcc...taintro2.shtml

Quote:

For those who have taken the time to study the McMartin Preschool case, you know that the physical abuse and satanic rituals endured by those 450 odd preschoolers over a number of years did indeed occur, that the tunnels the kids swore were there-were indeed there, and that the prosecutors did their damndest to lose that case and to abort/prevent the admission of key evidence that would have led to a conviction of McMartin and Ray Buckey (and possibly to an investigation of the Illuminated elites who were their sponsors and were the abusers of those "supplied" children).

Yes, that's right. The Illuminati.

Quote:

As is always the case, the Illuminati got out their disinfo/debunking teams and went to town, especially on Gunderson because of his former FBI status.

Quote:

"To come to the point: Nathan's propaganda, repeated in the New York Times and a host of other corporate publications, happened to conceal a classified mind control operation the CIA and Pentagon had undertaken thirty years before.... "

We may end up in the Conspiracy Theory section of the forum.

[jacque]

Originally Posted by LostAngeles

Jacque, the case is regarded as one of the first recorded cases of False Memory Syndrome. I grew up in the Boston area so I'm much more acquainted with the Fells Acre case.

Do you think that there was any abuse at all at the McMartin preschool or was the information the children gave the result of leading questions, or was it something in between?

I might say something in between...
My child was interviewed by the therapist who was accused of doing the leading questioning. I asked to see her tape and took Dr Joel Norris with me to view it. Dr. Norris, as many people I met in those days, turned out to be a strange fellow. Anyway, she didn't say much in the interview.
Uhoh, here comes the place where I have to be careful with what I say. My daughter is 25 now and may well find this thread. I should use a pseudonym but I am already out there and it would seem silly to try that now. You'd figure me out.
She did used some very telling body language when a certain teacher's name was spoken. A protective motion.
I know there was abuse at the school. The physical examination for sexual abuse was positive. I was in the examining room.
We stayed at the school until it closed in January 1983.
I had not heard about the allegations except form Peggy McMartin Buckey, the daughter of Virginia McMartin who was the director of the school. Peggy was so obviously rattled by something at that time that she had to try to give some explanation.

False Memory Syndrome...did you follow the history of this group FMSF, False Memory Syndrome Foundation? They morphed from the group VOCAL (Victims of Child Abuser Legislation, just think a minute on that name) when their founders from the Jordan Min case which began a year before ours did an interview in Paedika Magazine, a magazine for pedophiles.
Bad enough, but I am mentioned liberally in their IPT Journal and other articles. I have NEVER spoken to even ONE of the people who writes about me, NOT ONE.
Did you read the APA ruling on False Memories? They ruled it does not exist as a diagnosis. Elizabeth Loftus is the therapist who champions it in court, usually for the defense. Check out the first place she is known for using FMS, the Ingrahm case in Washington State.
I met a mother form that case. Church of the Living Waters, and he ran an adoption agency, too.
Oh, during our trial the term False Memory Syndrome never was an issue, it hadn't been invented yet.

[jacque]

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Tunnels & Gunderson, et al...

Jackie,

Apologies, but you'll recognize the source on the below, and from that you'll know my view of this.

To other forumites,
The below link should be background reading.
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume7/j7_2_1.htm

Jackie,
There are so many questions, but I'll start with basic ones, and try to keep in line with the few that Luke has opened with.
If you don't believe in the ritual or satanic abuse idea, are you also saying you think this was FMS, or do you believe that abuse took place?
Do you still support the tunnel idea that you and Gunderson developed and promoted.
What are your feelings on Gunderson's credibility?

IPT is operated by the group FMSF, They are one in the same.
They are simply not a credible source, they started as and still are mostly apologists for child molesters.
But I don 't mind answering to their claims.
I am saying abuse did take place. I can't say from what I know that it was ritualistic or satanic. I can say it was sadistic.

Oh, please...this is important so read carefully...gunderson did not develop anything. He simply hung around, absconded information and went off giving lectures that he was "hired" by us and to this day he sells copies of documents he stole from me.
This gives me a headache, but I wish I knew a way to stop him. He is a con man and a crook. He takes money from little old ladies and vulnerable victims of crimes. Oh, and he is a liar.
He embezzled over $30,000 from my family which threw us into bankruptcy.

Whew, yes I support the findings of the archaeological team the parents and supporters hired. We went in there wanting to find answers. We wanted the truth about what happened there.
I own the (around) 200 page scientific report. I have distributed it for free and for cost at different times.
Many people have come forward to help but no one ever actually does. It has been too big a job for me alone.

[Kil]

A co founder of the FMSF she speaks of is Dr. Ralph Underwager. He left (or was asked to leave) the foundation soon after this interview.
PAIDIKA INTERVIEW:
HOLLIDA WAKEFIELD AND RALPH UNDERWAGER Part I

Quote:

RALPH UNDERWAGER:
Paedophiles are too defensive. They go around saying, "You people out there are saying that what I choose is bad, that it's no good. You're putting me in prison, you're doing all these terrible things to me. I have to define my love as being in some way or other illicit." What I think is that paedophiles can make the assertion that the pursuit of intimacy and love is what they choose. With boldness, they can say, "I believe this is in fact part of God's will." They have the right to make these statements for themselves as personal choices. Now whether or not they can persuade other people they are right is another matter (laughs).

However, It could be that any discussion about the False Memory Syndrome Foundation should be held on another thread… I dunno.

[jacque]

Originally Posted by Kil

A co founder of the FMSF she speaks of is Dr. Ralph Underwager. He left (or was asked to leave) the foundation soon after this interview.
PAIDIKA INTERVIEW:
HOLLIDA WAKEFIELD AND RALPH UNDERWAGER Part I


However, It could be that any discussion about the False Memory Syndrome Foundation should be held in another thread… I dunno.

There sure is enough about FMSF (IPT) to start a thread.
It was after they told Underwager to leave that they changed the name to FMSF after Elizabeth Loftus' discovery of "False Memories." She discovered the term as a result of her attempt to defend Paul Ingrahm, I believe she called it "coerced confession" first).
Underwager passed himself off an an expert witness (some called him a hired gun due to the huge sums of money he asked for his testimony)

Loftus is now under scrutiny for her poor ethics in a number of instances.

[Foolmewunz]

Jackie,

MY BAD!!!! I was googling back and forth between old links, to find a bulleted recap of some of the highs and lows of the case, and the ITP site had a lengthy list of articles (actually, most are well argued and written). I didn't recognize "IPT".... and didn't immediately recall IPT's beginnings, 'though I'd been aware of them a while ago. (A lot of this is old news... I haven't been through these reports and documents in years. I was looking for a link to a quick summary, and chose IPT..... SORRY!)

I'll see if I can find a less dubious link/source. Although IPT does document and footnote their articles, I'd be the first to question a CTer who linked to a dubious site as source material.

(I haven't researched IPT sufficiently to begin to comprehend their defence [or "allowance"] of paedophilia, but from what I've seen they seem to be trying to approach the issue cerebrally and objectively - something that I don't think is possible on such a topic, but which has a certain credibility in areas of this forum.... Areas that I stay clear of as I'm not in the "let's discuss this sensibly" camp....)

I should have been more careful. I have personal experience with someone who developed FMS, and I was too hurried.

To the forum as a whole: I repeat..... MY BAD! Sloppy work, to say the least. Kil's cite is accurate.

FMS and FMSF should not be confused, however.

[jacque]

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

And, of course, there's this on Wikipedia...

Roadtoad,
I see this is yet another quote from IPT, Institute for Psychological Therapies (FMSF) literature.
Now you start to see where this stuff comes from.
Maybe we should start a thread on FMSF, IPT, VOCAL.

By the way, who knows how many child molesters got off by using our case as an example. Even Law and Order (David Kelly) used it once...in that episode the comparison didn't work. The molester was convicted.

[Chris Haynes]

Actually IPT ad FMSF are two seperate entities. Though they do related work. The FMSF has an impressive group of people on their board, including Loftus and James Randi:
http://fmsfonline.org/advboard.html

The IPT actually started before FMSF:
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/about.htm

I just finished reading about the story here:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal...daycare/1.html

And I think I would trust the write-up in IPT (which I am going through now) much more than the CII investigator MacFarlane or "Dr" William Gordon.

Then there was the guy who was hired by the parents to find the tunnel... but that evidence is still lacking:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/tunnels.htm

[Foolmewunz]

Jackie,

IPT and the FMSF can become a massive ad hom in this discussion if we allow it. The FMSF jumped on the issue and co-opted the discussion towards their own ends.

My feelings on False Memory Syndrome versus "Repressed" or "Recovered" Memory Therapy is that there are both. There's one member of this forum who can surely tell you that there are such things as repressed memories, and I personally believe that only a fool would say that all such issues are cases of FMS. I can, on the other hand, assuredly confirm (as with the a.m. forumite, from personal experience - in my case, a family member) that there are cases of implanted or "false" memories.

The work of CII, the irrational support by Summit, and the utter stupidity of the police and DA in their evidence gatherings in the beginnings of the McMartin case falls in the latter category, I feel.

May I suggest a "start over"? Pick a topic and let's discuss in detail.
>Stickel's work would be a good topic, perhaps?
>What do you think of Currie?
>Glad to see you're disowning Gunderson.
(You can choose the topic - this is a forum for skeptics, so it may appear that we're jumping on you, so don't be put off by a lot of questions. Thus far, I'd just be content to get a handle on where you now stand on the major issues of the case.)

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

...The work of CII, the irrational support by Summit, and the utter stupidity of the police and DA in their evidence gatherings in the beginnings of the McMartin case falls in the latter category, I feel.

...

Let us not forget the withholding of evidence by the prosecution, particularly letters written by Judy Johnson, from http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal...daycare/4.html :

Quote:

A few people read the letters of Judy Johnson and questioned her mental state, but no one stopped to consider that paranoid schizophrenia might have been the cause of the hysteria. Johnson began to name other people as molesters of her child. Then she claimed that someone had raped her dog. She wrote one letter admitting that she did not know fantasy from reality—something the prosecution marked as a paper to be kept from the defense team.

and from http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal...daycare/5.html :

Quote:

Eventually, defense lawyers learned that certain letters that were written by Judy Johnson had been withheld. A hearing was held on prosecutorial misconduct. While the hearing unfolded, Judy Johnson was found dead in her home from complications of alcoholism.

[jacque]

Originally Posted by Hydrogen Cyanide

Actually IPT ad FMSF are two seperate entities. Though they do related work. The FMSF has an impressive group of people on their board, including Loftus and James Randi:
http://fmsfonline.org/advboard.html

The IPT actually started before FMSF:
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/about.htm

I just finished reading about the story here:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal...daycare/1.html

And I think I would trust the write-up in IPT (which I am going through now) much more than the CII investigator MacFarlane or "Dr" William Gordon.

Then there was the guy who was hired by the parents to find the tunnel... but that evidence is still lacking:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/tunnels.htm

Ahhhh, I knew I had heard Mr. Randi's name somewhere before. (Why does he call himself Mister Randi, anyway?)
Yeah, I would have believed all you read, too if I hadn't lived it.
Religious Tolerance defends real satanists and witches. That is fine, don't get me wrong. I think they claim they are harmless as they well may be. That should be their fight if people are falsely accusing them of child molestation and worse. They don't want to hear form anyone like pesky little me who lived through it..so mote it be for them I personally don't care for satanists, wouldn't want any of my children marrying one and all that.
I sure don't want to argue here but I also sure don't consider Loftus impressive...well, OK, impressive in her own way. I got started on this not by Randi's work but the comments on this site on the Sylvia Browne issue.
We trusted MccFarlane, CII was and still is prestigious though I am sure the McMartin legacy didn't help them any.
I'll go check out that crimelibrary url. I didn't want dinner tonight anyway...

[jacque]

"Then one day in 1983, according to Debbie Nathan and Michael Snedeker in Satan's Silence,..."
[url]http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/psychology/mcmartin_daycare/1.html[/UR

Oh, oh, there we go. quoting Debbie Nathan in the 2nd paragraph.
Sorry, I can't vouch for the correctness of that.
I knew Judy Johnson and talked to her about her experiences.
Shall I continue here?

[Chris Haynes]

Go for it... tell us everything you know.

[Kil]

Here is where I come down on the issue of False Memory Syndrome and the False Memory Syndrome Foundation.

I doubt, since there is no well-described symptom cluster that fits most of the cases, that there is such a thing as False Memory Syndrome.

I do not doubt that people have False Memories and that they cause problems.

Traumatic Repression happens, which is something that the FMSF denies in every way they can and still look unbiased.

It disturbs me that Randi and others have placed themselves on one side of the repression issue. But, oh well… I haven’t lost respect for the man. I just think his advocacy of that group is misplaced.

For more details about how I see the issue please see:

A Cherry Picker's Guide To Choosing Evidence For Traumatic Repression Or False Memory Syndrome

And:

Questioning the Validity of False Memory Syndrome

Or not…

[jacque]

Authoress of the Crimelibrary article:
Katherine Ramsland

Katherine Ramsland, Ph.D. has published twenty-five books. She holds graduate degrees in forensic psychology, clinical psychology, and philosophy. Currently she teaches forensic psychology at DeSales University in Pennsylvania. After publishing two books in psychology, Engaging the Immediate and The Art of Learning, she wrote Prism of the Night: A Biography of Anne Rice. At that time, she had a cover story in Psychology Today on our culture's fascination with vampires. Then she wrote guidebooks to Anne Rice's fictional worlds: The Vampire Companion: The Official Guide to Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles, The Witches' Companion: The Official Guide to Anne Rice's Lives of the Mayfair Witches, The Roquelaure Reader: A Companion to Anne Rice's Erotica, and The Anne Rice Reader. Her next book was Dean Koontz: A Writer's Biography, and then she ventured into journalism with a two-year investigation of the vampire subculture, to write Piercing the Darkness: Undercover with Vampires in America Today. Following that was Ghost, Cemetery Stories, and The Science of Vampires. She has also written for The New York Times Book Review, The Writer, The Newark Star Ledger, Publishers Weekly, and The Trenton Times.

Her background in forensic studies positioned her to assist former FBI profiler John Douglas on his book, The Cases that Haunt Us, and to co-write a book with former FBI profiler, Gregg McCrary, The Unknown Darkness. She has also written The Forensic Science of CSI, The Criminal Mind: A Writer's Guide to Forensic Psychology, The Science of Cold Case Files, and Inside the Minds of Mass Murderers and she pens editorials on breaking forensic cases for The Philadelphia Inquirer. Recently, she co-wrote A Voice for the Dead with James E. Starrs on his exhumation projects, and became part of the team. She also contributes regularly to Court TV's Crime Library and has written nearly three hundred articles about serial killers, forensic psychology, and forensic science. Her latest book is The Human Predator: A Historical Chronicle of Serial Murder and Forensic Investigation.

www.katherineramsland.com


I'd just like to point out that Ms Ramsland seems to write a lot about witches and the paranormal.
Too bad she didn't check the credentials of the people she used as sources for this.
Also too bad she didn't bother to talk to anyone who was involved first hand. That is what is known as writing a biased article.
I know students around the world use this as research for their papers and mind development. Too bad.
I knew Judy Johnson and what Ms Ramsland writes is simply not true.

The case wasn't even about Judy. There were hundreds of other families whos children were victims of abuse at the preschool besides Judy. All but 2 that I know of never even met Judy.

[Foolmewunz]

Ya know, Kil, I hate people who are so damned accurate! Makes me go back and be more precise in my terminology. (I'm obviously having a bad day in that area!)

I'm misusing the term "syndrome". I believe that false memories exist, as I've seen examples up close. I do not agree that there is a defined condition or syndrome that therapists can use as a shortcut, though. That's as bad as accepting Summit's contention that the evidence is that there is no evidence, a claim often espoused by Past Life Therapists and others of that ilk.

[billydkid]

Originally Posted by jacque

I don't even know where to start...
I am the parent of a child who attended the preschool and was diagnosed as having been sexually molested.
I am the parent who decided to hire an archaeologist to look for tunnels under the preschool building. Even though others have it for sale, I leaglly own that scientific report.
I am also the parent who let ted gunderson infiltrate our case.
Google me if you'd like, Jackie McGauley.
I'm not very computer saavy, I look at my fingers when I type and I have to use spell check on every post, so please be patient with me.
I hope this is the correct place to even start this thread.
Here's where I am coming from;
I never liked to use the term ritual abuse. It was coined by Dr Lawrence Pazder of Canada, author of the book Michelle Remembers and now deceased. The producer of the 20/20 shows about our case brought Larry and Michelle, staunch Catholics, to my house one afternoon in about 2004 to meet with parents. They insisted, from what they had heard, that our case was ritual abuse.
I am sure people involved in the case know more about it than I do and I wouldn't try to tell them what to think. I know some therapists who had some of our kids in therapy say the case was ritual abuse. Larry had a definition of the term which we have to accept since he made up the term in the first place. That is basicaly; Abuse combined with a systematic use of symbols, ceremonies, and machinations designed and orchestrated to attain malevolent effects"

So, for what it is, I put myself out here.
Any questions?
Jacque

Hi Jacque. Welcome. I'm not sure I really understand your post - I have a little problem with reading comprehension sometimes. Could you say more clearly what your position is and what it is you are looking for or asking? I might say as far as abuse goes I believe the following - that there are cases of genuine abuse and there are false claims of abuse. False claims of abuse harm innocent folks in a variety of respects. Most obviously, it ruins the lives of the innocents who are accused of abuse as well as the lives of those who might have been confused or coerced into doing the accusing. Somewhat less obviously are those kids who genuinely are abused who's claims might unfairly become suspect because of the damage and embarrassment caused by previous claims which have proved to be false. I hope this comes off sounding like English. I am very tired.

[jacque]

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Ya know, Kil, I hate people who are so damned accurate! Makes me go back and be more precise in my terminology. (I'm obviously having a bad day in that area!)

I'm misusing the term "syndrome". I believe that false memories exist, as I've seen examples up close. I do not agree that there is a defined condition or syndrome that therapists can use as a shortcut, though. That's as bad as accepting Summit's contention that the evidence is that there is no evidence, a claim often espoused by Past Life Therapists and others of that ilk.

Uhoh, I have to admit that I knew Summit well, also.
His syndrome is a syndrome and he never said is wasn't.
The Child Abuse Accommodation Syndrome explains why SOME children take back things they said and even sometimes deny they were abused.
False Memory Syndrome should be the same. It explains why SOME people could have memories suggested to them and then believe them, but not that ALL abuse cases can be explained that way. Especially when you are talking about hundreds of people in the same case...not really too likely.
Most of our kids have not taken back what they said. The exception is Kyle Sapp who was interviewed by........Debbie Nathan.
www.ndaa.org/pdf/slides_archive.pdf

Read the real paper, not the article on it by............IPT

[jacque]

Originally Posted by billydkid

Hi Jacque. Welcome. I'm not sure I really understand your post - I have a little problem with reading comprehension sometimes. Could you say more clearly what your position is and what it is you are looking for or asking? I might say as far as abuse goes I believe the following - that there are cases of genuine abuse and there are false claims of abuse. False claims of abuse harm innocent folks in a variety of respects. Most obviously, it ruins the lives of the innocents who are accused of abuse as well as the lives of those who might have been confused or coerced into doing the accusing. Somewhat less obviously are those kids who genuinely are abused who's claims might unfairly become suspect because of the damage and embarrassment caused by previous claims which have proved to be false. I hope this comes off sounding like English. I am very tired.

No, Billykid, you did fine.
I agree with you. You can't paint all of these cases with one broad brush.
As you can see by now, I am getting more questions than I can handle without being specific.
I'll do my best.

[jacque]

Originally Posted by Kil

Here is where I come down on the issue of False Memory Syndrome and the False Memory Syndrome Foundation.

I doubt, since there is no well-described symptom cluster that fits most of the cases, that there is such a thing as False Memory Syndrome.

I do not doubt that people have False Memories and that they cause problems.

Traumatic Repression happens, which is something that the FMSF denies in every way they can and still look unbiased.

It disturbs me that Randi and others have placed themselves on one side of the repression issue. But, oh well… I haven’t lost respect for the man. I just think his advocacy of that group is misplaced.

For more details about how I see the issue please see:

A Cherry Picker's Guide To Choosing Evidence For Traumatic Repression Or False Memory Syndrome

And:

Questioning the Validity of False Memory Syndrome

Or not…

Thanks Kil!
I totally agree with you.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by Kil

A co founder of the FMSF she speaks of is Dr. Ralph Underwager. He left (or was asked to leave) the foundation soon after this interview.
PAIDIKA INTERVIEW:
HOLLIDA WAKEFIELD AND RALPH UNDERWAGER Part I

Quote:

RALPH UNDERWAGER:
Paedophiles are too defensive. They go around saying, "You people out there are saying that what I choose is bad, that it's no good. You're putting me in prison, you're doing all these terrible things to me. I have to define my love as being in some way or other illicit." What I think is that paedophiles can make the assertion that the pursuit of intimacy and love is what they choose. With boldness, they can say, "I believe this is in fact part of God's will." They have the right to make these statements for themselves as personal choices. Now whether or not they can persuade other people they are right is another matter (laughs).

However, It could be that any discussion about the False Memory Syndrome Foundation should be held on another thread… I dunno.

It appears there are two sides to this story and the courts have agreed with Underwager.

http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume6/j6_2_5.htm

Quote:

Misrepresentation of the Interview

Beginning with two articles (Lawrence, 1993a, 1993b) in an incest survivors network newsletter, there have been subsequent articles around the world claiming that in the interview given to Paidika we say that adult-child sexual contacts are good, that they are good for children, that pedophilia is God's will, that pedophilia should be decriminalized, and that we approve of pedophilia. Some have said that we are known pedophiles. Recently we have been told that the survivor's network says we advertise regularly in publications of NAMBLA and that we speak every year at the NAMBLA conventions saying that pedophilia is desirable. Our suggestion that the people in the Netherlands who believe adult-child sexual relationships can be positive ought to do longitudinal research has been interpreted as us advocating sexually abusing children for research.

People have written and called us from around the world to threaten, inquire, dump venom and anger on us, and label us the most reprehensible of villains. Articles that we know of have been in several survivors' network newsletters, in the Family Violence and Sexual Assault Bulletin, and in newspapers and magazines including the London Sunday Times, Dublin Irish Times, Toronto Now Magazine, Boston Globe, Minneapolis Star-Tribune, and Christians and Society Today. Every trial that we appear in now includes an attempt at impeachment by the adversary attorney using the Paidika interview and implying to the jury or judge that we approve of child molestation and guilt by association by linking us with those vile, reprehensible pedophiles.

How could this happen?

We were first publicly identified as the #1 enemy experts of the prosecutors in November, 1986, at a training conference in New Orleans put on by the National Center for the Prosecution of Child Abuse (NCPCA) (Gordon, 1986, Personal Communication). We are perceived by the prosecutors and their supporting professionals as responsible for turning the country around and beginning the backlash against the noble effort to protect children (Summit, 1993). Subsequently, the staff of the NCPCA has engaged in a systematic effort to destroy us by attacking our reputation with slander, libel, and defamatory falsehoods. This goal was clearly articulated by Ms. Patricia Toth, director of the National Center for the Prosecution of Child Abuse, at a conference in Madison, Wisconsin in November, 1990 when she stated that her goal in making a presentation about Ralph Underwager was to destroy his reputation.

We have sued in Federal Court in six states. In Wisconsin, Judge Shabaz, has ruled that what they have done, as a fact and under the law, is defamatory. However, he also ruled that since they maintained they believed what they said was true, their behavior did not constitute malice under the law and therefore was not actionable. That judgment was upheld by the Seventh Circuit and we are now appealing the issue to the U. S. Supreme Court.

In one of the documents submitted to the court as part of the litigation Toth and her attorneys describe the purpose of the NCPCA efforts. "Likewise, the more prepared prosecutors are for expert witnesses who make their living testifying only on behalf of child molesters (and essentially adopting theories attendant to their source of income) the less effective, and less commercially desirable, the expert will be for future alleged child molester defendants."

In March of 1991 we helped organize what later became the FMS Foundation by encouraging and supporting Pamela Freyd and others to begin a group to respond to the increasing claims by adults of recovered memories of childhood abuse. The FMSF was started in spring of 1992. The National Center for Prosecution of Child Abuse had an article dealing with the FMSF in their newsletter, Update (1992). In the article the NCPCA sees the FMSF as the real danger, allies itself with the incest survivors' network and Bass and Davis, co-authors of The Courage to Heal (Paperback)(Audio Cassette), and says "Professionals who intervene in child sex abuse cases can expect to be subjected to the 'backlash' suggesting that children and now adults have been brainwashed into claiming abuse by parents and caretakers" (1992, p. 1).

[Foolmewunz]

If the FMSF actually believes that there is no such thing as repressed memories, whether traumatic or otherwise, then they are wrong.

But equally, I think Kil is saying that there are definitely known instances of false memories. And with that, I concur.

A) There are repressed memories.
B) There are also false memories.

The definition and blind acceptance of either as a "syndrome" is the mistake, whether it's Summit or FMSF.

[Kil]

Quote:

Gord_in_Toronto:
It appears there are two sides to this story and the courts have agreed with Underwager.

Yes, there are two sides to every story. I only cited Underwager’s Paidika inteview because it was mentioned. And, of course, the quote is his. If you noticed, however, I linked to the whole interview. I’m not one to take words out of context. But those were, at least, some of the words that got him in trouble. It’s all there for you to read.

And really, We (my girlfriend wrote most of one of the articles I linked to) did not use Underwager at all in our articles critical of the FMSF. We also left out ethical concerns we had about such things as sourcing, misrepresentations, and procedural problems. We left them out because we didn’t need them to say what we wanted to say.

[Schneibster]

Originally Posted by jacque

She did used some very telling body language when a certain teacher's name was spoken. A protective motion.
I know there was abuse at the school. The physical examination for sexual abuse was positive. I was in the examining room.

That, to my mind, is pretty conclusive; particularly the second. Information like this, though thin on the ground among all the sensational stuff, eventually convinced me that there had been abuse, though I never quite bought all the satanic stuff, and wasn't paying a lot of attention when the whole tunnel thing came up. I lived, BTW, in Northern California at the time, and although it wasn't as big a story there as it was in LA, it got plenty of coverage both in the papers and on TV.

[Foolmewunz]

Frankly, I had to do a lot of reading on the subject, today, as I wasn't steeped in the internalized discussions surrounding FMSF and ITP.

ITP seem to have made this one stupid interview, which upon closer examination, I'd almost say they sound like they were on pot! They're actually (well, Underwager for the most part) almost giving them advice on how to put a positive spin on paedophilia. Aside from that, (and that's a big aside) although one might disagree with their specifics on certain topics, I don't see any problems with their comments or views on repressed memories.

Upon further reading, I still think that FMSF are off-base somewhat as they do state that they see no satisfactory evidence of repressed memories. I'm strictly answering from opinion, but I can't feel that there's no such case, .... not one - ever. I'd have to hear from therapists or psychiatrists on the subject, and that's not a circle I generally travel in.

Other than referring to it as a "syndrome" and finding patterns where there aren't any, I do think there is far more evidence that false memories have been induced or exploited by incompetent (at best) or ill-intentioned therapists. The FMSF folks have an issue, I believe, and that's the coincidence of the pattern of the therapy and then legal threats.

I'd like to know more on the topic, but can't find anything not locked behind passwords at dot edu sites. I can see a case now and then of a therapist, whose patient's insurance coverage was running out, recommending legal action so they could continue the therapy, but that seems a rather remote possibility. It's hard to believe this became "acceptable SOP for the profession". Unless, of course, there are a lot more Sullivanians out there than I know of, and all therapists are trying to develop cult followings.

There's also the problem that the FMSF, in finding these patterns and supporting the idea of a syndrome, are doing exactly what the Regression Therapists are doing. Any of X symptoms are proof of childhood sexual abuse to certain therapists (and they vary wildly from therapist to therapist), and as Summit has also said, the fact that they aren't aware of their molestation is proof that they were molested. That would seem to make a lot of us sexual abuse victims.

On a lighter note*, here's the winner of my Nutbar of the Week Award a few months ago. http://www.1215.org/x/lamb/index.html


*@Jackie - I want to add that this is not at all "light" for you - and this is a very difficult thread to write in. No one, IMHO, wants to tromp all over your personal grief and the Hell your life must've been through all of this. We often intellectualize situations - it's human nature - but if this is too personal and you elect not to continue, I, for one will not hold it against you. We often get "star" bloggers and experts on certain topics on these boards, but rarely someone who was personally involved in one of the biggest (and most controversial) news stories of the past twenty years. It could get a little testy.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Jackie,

IPT and the FMSF can become a massive ad hom in this discussion if we allow it. The FMSF jumped on the issue and co-opted the discussion towards their own ends.

My feelings on False Memory Syndrome versus "Repressed" or "Recovered" Memory Therapy is that there are both. There's one member of this forum who can surely tell you that there are such things as repressed memories, and I personally believe that only a fool would say that all such issues are cases of FMS. I can, on the other hand, assuredly confirm (as with the a.m. forumite, from personal experience - in my case, a family member) that there are cases of implanted or "false" memories.

Are we talking about the supposed unconsious repressed memories, or a more active process? Why should any claim of the first be recognised given the comleate lack of credible cases documenting proven events?