The Fallacy of Supporting Our Troops

Mephisto · 21st February 2007, 05:45 AM

I can remember way back during the last Presidential elections when BushCo. was asserting that J.K. wouldn't support our troops adequately. We all know that they STILL don't have adequate body armor, adequate armor for their vehicles, have had V.A. benefits cut, but the truth regarding the conditions of a main military hospital have remained hidden until now.

Isn't this something Ron Kovic addressed in his book, "Born on the 4th of July?"

Leadership blamed for shabby Army hospital building

POSTED: 8:45 p.m. EST, February 20, 2007

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Army Secretary Francis Harvey blamed a failure of leadership for substandard conditions in a building that is part of Walter Reed Army Medical Center and vowed Tuesday to move quickly to fix the problem.

"We failed here, we failed in having a facility like this," Harvey told CNN. "Unfortunately, it's a leadership problem."

Inside Building 18, used for outpatients who suffered wounds in Iraq and Afghanistan, workers were repairing plumbing, covering holes in ceilings and repainting mold-covered walls. (Watch a tour of the run-down facility )

Harvey said he learned about the conditions in the building, a former hotel where some soldiers have been recuperating for more than a year and a half, on Sunday, when the Washington Post broke the story.

"If we would have known about this, we would have fixed it," he said. "Unfortunately, we didn't know about it."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/20/walter.reed/index.html
___________

I don't buy this excuse any more than I bought the excuses for Abu Grahib. Any military commander who claims ignorance as an excuse is clearly NOT concerned for his troops.

Luke T. · 21st February 2007, 06:58 AM

Perhaps this might have something to do with it:

Quote:

The Base Realignment and Closure Commission in 2005 recommended closing Walter Reed in 2010.

Mephisto · 21st February 2007, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by Luke T.

Perhaps this might have something to do with it:

Apparently they were counting on the assumption that there would be no casualties in the Iraq war.

Robertson says Bush told him there would be no deaths in Iraq

Thursday, October 21, 2004 at 07:43 EST

WASHINGTON — Religious broadcaster Pat Robertson says he warned President George Bush before U.S. troops invaded Iraq that the United States would sustain casualties but that Bush responded, "Oh, no, we're not going to have any casualties."

http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/316221/all

Marquis de Carabas · 21st February 2007, 07:15 AM

Body armor? Vehicle armor? Benefits? What the hell are you on about? Troop support is about magnetic car ribbons!

Ziggurat · 21st February 2007, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by Mephisto

Robertson says Bush told him there would be no deaths in Iraq

I'm surprised, Mephisto, that you consider Robertson an authoritative source of information.

Overman · 21st February 2007, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas

Body armor? Vehicle armor? Benefits? What the hell are you on about? Troop support is about magnetic car ribbons!

of which the money made selling them doesn't even go to help the troops at all!!!

YEAH!

Mephisto · 21st February 2007, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas

Body armor? Vehicle armor? Benefits? What the hell are you on about? Troop support is about magnetic car ribbons!

Unfortunately, you're 100% correct. BTW, I saw an interesting one recently - it was a yellow infinity symbol with the words, "War without end."

Upchurch · 21st February 2007, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas

Body armor? Vehicle armor? Benefits? What the hell are you on about? Troop support is about magnetic car ribbons!

Obligatory warning of some bad language:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Mephisto · 21st February 2007, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I'm surprised, Mephisto, that you consider Robertson an authoritative source of information.

I don't, but I do find it ironic that two men who both claim that God talks to them have very different takes on the same story. Robertson was just the more correct of the two, which is noteworthy since A. he had no reason to lie, and probably didn't fabricate the story, and B. wasn't quite as enthused about who Jesus would bomb.

Mephisto · 21st February 2007, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Obligatory warning of some bad language:

Now, that was neither constructive OR in good taste! I LOVED it!

Thanks for making my day.

Ziggurat · 21st February 2007, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by Mephisto

I don't

Sure you do. You referenced his account of a statement Bush supposedly made for which there is no coroborating evidence, which would be quite extraordinary indeed if true, and which doesn't resemble any comments Bush has made which can be coroborated. Why do you believe his account? I see no possible motivation on your part to accept Robertson's word in this case (when I'm quite confident you wouldn't in general) except that it makes Bush look bad.

Mephisto · 21st February 2007, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Sure you do. You referenced his account of a statement Bush supposedly made for which there is no coroborating evidence, which would be quite extraordinary indeed if true, and which doesn't resemble any comments Bush has made which can be coroborated. Why do you believe his account? I see no possible motivation on your part to accept Robertson's word in this case (when I'm quite confident you wouldn't in general) except that it makes Bush look bad.

Got any other explainations for why WRAH is so shabby during wartime?

Again, what would be Robertson's impetus in claiming it were true, especially since he is a Bush supporter?

Ziggurat · 21st February 2007, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Mephisto

Got any other explainations for why WRAH is so shabby during wartime?

You'll have to spell out the acronym since I don't know what it refers to.

Quote:

Again, what would be Robertson's impetus in claiming it were true, especially since he is a Bush supporter?

Who knows? Maybe he thinks Bush's unpopularity is a threat to him, and so wants to make it look like his former support was due to Bush tricking him. I don't know, and neither do you, but there's at least one reason, and I could probably come up with more. Conversely, why would Bush make a claim (that there would be no casualties) which Robertson himself didn't believe, which wasn't necessary to support the decision to invade, and which was so obviously not going to be true? Isn't that really a harder question to answer than why Robertson might lie about it after the fact? Of course it is. Unless, that is, your interest is primarily in making Bush look bad, and you'll assign credibility to any critic who comes along, even one that you otherwise wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole.

Darth Rotor · 21st February 2007, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Mephisto

I can remember way back during the last Presidential elections when BushCo. was asserting that J.K. wouldn't support our troops adequately. We all know that they STILL don't have adequate body armor, adequate armor for their vehicles, have had V.A. benefits cut, but the truth regarding the conditions of a main military hospital have remained hidden until now.

Hidden from whom? Are you on the Senate or House ASC?

Quote:

Isn't this something Ron Kovic addressed in his book, "Born on the 4th of July?"

Did he discuss the BRAC process?

Quote:

I don't buy this excuse any more than I bought the excuses for Abu Grahib. Any military commander who claims ignorance as an excuse is clearly NOT concerned for his troops.

I don't know who Sec Army is referring to either, in his "we." I do know that Base Operating funds have been in a crunch for about 15 years. I also know that VA funding has been a political football for quite some time. Heck, James Webb, now Senator from Virginia, got his entry into politics as a direct result of the battles he waged, most of them pro bono, on behalf of vets and VA shortcomings shortly after Viet Nam wound down. He got appointed as deputy assistant Sec Def for Veterans affairs as one of his first political jobs.

If you get the chance, head on over to BAMC (Brook Army Medical Center) in San Antonio, Texas. Visit some of the young men and women there, many of them sans limbs or eyes. I imagine you have some friends from your 'Nam days who are missing parts and pieces. The visit to BAMC will give you a lift, as these young men and women are remarkably upbeat. I think they are getting the kind of support that you'd want, you'd want your 'Nam buddies to have gotten.

"Support the troops" works on a very simple level: how do we American citizens respond to those who were over there, and came back? The political football on funding, and its varying decisions, and the maneuvering in Congress with the military as a political football, is old news. Pat Schroeder for fifty, Alex.

The key matter of "support" is how We the People treat those who return. People who care, people like this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15130526/ Run the video to the right of the leading paragraph.

That's what supporting the troops is all about, in direct contrast to the hate mongering libs and whiners, those who insulted and spit at some of our servicemen who came home from Viet Nam.

I was a contributor to a motorcycle rally in San Antonio a couple of months ago. A friend at work let me know about it, as I am not a biker. The rally was people, good people on motorcycles and various citizens who joined in, supporting our troops, an event that I took my son to. It was organized by the US Marine unit in San Antonio. I was weeping by the time we left.

This post of yours has the faint whiff of a Fred Phelps caper, though perhaps I misread your intention.

Digression: When I hear of a Phelps protest at a funeral, I see red.

Meph, playing "the troops card" for a political agenda is, how shall I say this, transparent.

DR

steverino · 21st February 2007, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Obligatory warning of some bad language:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Hey Upchurch. That video is hilarious. This group has more talent than the Dixie Chicks. Bob Hope, move over!

I do not accept, however, that placing a yellow ribbon magnet on one's SUV suggests shallow cheerleading. I have noticed many such vehicles also sport "Proud Marine" and other vet insignia. Also, the "Bush Lied" and "Cheney is Satan" stickers ubiquitous in Seattle do not seem to fund anti-war candidates or other peace efforts. Why these stickers would be considered "sensible" while the yellow ribbons "not sensible" I do not understand.

AmateurScientist · 21st February 2007, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Digression: When I hear of a Phelps protest at a funeral, I see red.

Meph, playing "the troops card" for a political agenda is, how shall I say this, transparent.

DR

Spot on, Darth. Way to call Meph on his BS. Pathetic, Meph, just pathetic. You should be ashamed of yourself, but I suspect you aren't, and that you fail even to understand why you should be.

AS

Mephisto · 22nd February 2007, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Hidden from whom?

From the majority of the American people, otherwise the condition of Walter Reed Army Hospital would only be known to veterans and their families and this story wouldn't be newsworthy

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

I don't know who Sec Army is referring to either, in his "we." I do know that Base Operating funds have been in a crunch for about 15 years. I also know that VA funding has been a political football for quite some time. Heck, James Webb, now Senator from Virginia, got his entry into politics as a direct result of the battles he waged, most of them pro bono, on behalf of vets and VA shortcomings shortly after Viet Nam wound down. He got appointed as deputy assistant Sec Def for Veterans affairs as one of his first political jobs.

And veterans could definitely use more Senators like James Webb. The plight of disabled veterans continues long after any particular war is over and forgotten.

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

If you get the chance, head on over to BAMC (Brook Army Medical Center) in San Antonio, Texas. Visit some of the young men and women there, many of them sans limbs or eyes. I imagine you have some friends from your 'Nam days who are missing parts and pieces. The visit to BAMC will give you a lift, as these young men and women are remarkably upbeat. I think they are getting the kind of support that you'd want, you'd want your 'Nam buddies to have gotten.

I agree with you completely. I am ALWAYS in awe of the resiliance of our returning veterans and I'm glad that those returning from this war remain upbeat - it shows how important the support of the ordinary citizen can be. What bothers me is that so much money is earmarked by the current administration to further the war, while major facilities like Walter Reed are in such disrepair.

The fact that our wounded and disabled militarymen and women are so thankful for the care they receive is testament to their courage and dedication, and although I've seen my share of shoddy facilities it's always the kindess and understanding of the medical staff that has made the difference. Their hands are tied by budget constraints and the whims of politicians who juggle the finances required to make their sacrifices tolerable.

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

"Support the troops" works on a very simple level: how do we American citizens respond to those who were over there, and came back? The political football on funding, and its varying decisions, and the maneuvering in Congress with the military as a political football, is old news. Pat Schroeder for fifty, Alex.

The key matter of "support" is how We the People treat those who return. People who care, people like this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15130526/ Run the video to the right of the leading paragraph.

I agree, and was very thankful for the link you provided. It's good to know that the American people are behind our troops enough to know that a simple gesture of kindess, gratitude or understanding goes a long way toward making a soldier feel what he has done was worthwhile. It was also good to note that even those who oppose this war aren't adopting the tactics of many of those who opposed the Vietnam war. The attitude of the protestors of that generation was doubly detrimental considering the draft.

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

That's what supporting the troops is all about, in direct contrast to the hate mongering libs and whiners, those who insulted and spit at some of our servicemen who came home from Viet Nam.

Again, I agree wholeheartedly.

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

This post of yours has the faint whiff of a Fred Phelps caper, though perhaps I misread your intention.

I'm sorry if I sounded as though I was using a pile of disabled veterans as a soapbox to speak against the Bush administration. It's no secret that I hold them (Bush and cronies) in utter contempt. I can't help but hear their rhetoric that justifies sending more troops into this useless war, and I can't help but feel the apprehensions of those returning to Iraq for their second or third tour. I hope you've also taken notice of the fact that many aren't even allowed their honorable discharge when the time comes.

I can still remember the Vietnam tendency to count down the days until one left the 'Nam, and can remember how nervous everyone got the "shorter" they were. The current generation of soldiers doesn't even have that luxury as they must know that even if they make it through their current tour 'in country,' they'll likely be sent back.

I'm also in awe of the dedication of the soldiers of this generation as they are offered the choice to rejoin their comrades even AFTER losing a limb. Do I deserve comparison to Fred Phelps (who also makes me see red) for believing that they shouldn't be taken advantage of?

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Digression: When I hear of a Phelps protest at a funeral, I see red.

I'm in complete agreement with you here. Idiots like Phelps are so self-involved that they can't even realize that their free speech comes at the expense of those he's protesting/

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Meph, playing "the troops card" for a political agenda is, how shall I say this, transparent.

DR

Again, my vocal hated of this administration may sound as though my concern for our troops and veterans is contrived, but I sometimes can't wrap my brain around the fact that they are constantly asking for more money to fight this war (or to rebuild Iraq) while the facilities caring for a whole new generation of disabled veterans are STILL substandard.

I'm a member of several veteran's organizations (DAV, VFW, The American Legion) and I wholeheartedly invite ALL Americans to give generously to these or similar organizations as they strive to keep the sacrifices of our militarymen and women in the forefront and to keep the greedy hands of politicians away from the money that helps keep their lives productive.

Supporting our troops is (as most here pointed out) a LOT more than just putting a yellow magnet on your SUV.

Darth Rotor · 22nd February 2007, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by Mephisto

Do I deserve comparison to Fred Phelps (who also makes me see red) for believing that they shouldn't be taken advantage of?

No, I was reading something into your post, I think. My bad.

Quote:

Supporting our troops is (as most here pointed out) a LOT more than just putting a yellow magnet on your SUV.

Yep.

DR

Mephisto · 22nd February 2007, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by AmateurScientist

You should be ashamed of yourself, but I suspect you aren't, and that you fail even to understand why you should be.

AS

Maybe you should "enlighten" me.

a_unique_person · 22nd February 2007, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Obligatory warning of some bad language:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Language? What's wrong with singing about your country?

fuelair · 22nd February 2007, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I'm surprised, Mephisto, that you consider Robertson an authoritative source of information.

only, potentially, for what he personally has been told. And given Bush, I actually believe this is possible.

a_unique_person · 22nd February 2007, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by AmateurScientist

Spot on, Darth. Way to call Meph on his BS. Pathetic, Meph, just pathetic. You should be ashamed of yourself, but I suspect you aren't, and that you fail even to understand why you should be.

AS

What is 'supporting' troops? DR writes off all critics of the Vietnam War as people who spat on returning troops from Vietnam.

Supporting troops, I would say, involves making sure that you first of all only send them off to fight wars that are morally and logically correct and for causes for which all reasons are open and transparently clear. If you can't get that right, the rest is just a muddled hash of trying to make a bad situation good.

Mephisto · 22nd February 2007, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Language? What's wrong with singing about your country?

Nothing at all, it's singing about your cun . t . . . ry that can get you in trouble. And that's coming from a sol . . . . dier.

Darth Rotor · 22nd February 2007, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

What is 'supporting' troops? DR writes off all critics of the Vietnam War as people who spat on returning troops from Vietnam.

Supporting troops, I would say, involves making sure that you first of all only send them off to fight wars that are morally and logically correct and for causes for which all reasons are open and transparently clear. If you can't get that right, the rest is just a muddled hash of trying to make a bad situation good.

You are lying again, AUP. I do not like to use that term, liar, unless it is clearly warranted. I see it far too often on this board. Your complete mischaracterization of my post will not go unremarked.

That's what supporting the troops is all about, in direct contrast to the hate mongering libs and whiners, those who insulted and spit at some of our servicemen who came home from Viet Nam.

Where in that do you find "all critics of the Viet Nam War?'

DR

AmateurScientist · 22nd February 2007, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Mephisto

Maybe you should "enlighten" me.

Given your tone ("enlighten" in quotes), and given my impression from the posts of yours that I have read that you have difficulty seeing past your own ideological nose, I see no point. No thanks.

AS

Mephisto · 22nd February 2007, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by AmateurScientist

Given your tone ("enlighten" in quotes), and given my impression from the posts of yours that I have read that you have difficulty seeing past your own ideological nose, I see no point. No thanks.

AS

Originally Posted by AmateurScientist

Spot on, Darth. Way to call Meph on his BS. Pathetic, Meph, just pathetic. You should be ashamed of yourself, but I suspect you aren't, and that you fail even to understand why you should be.

AS

Maybe you'd also care to explain how THIS tone is superior to mine?

You have a right to your opinion and a right to disagree with my ideological assertions - isn't that just what makes our country great?

Upchurch · 22nd February 2007, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Language? What's wrong with singing about your country?

The lead singer drops an f-bomb near the end. (I know. I've listened to it many times.) Anything else, I don't know what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by steverino

I do not accept, however, that placing a yellow ribbon magnet on one's SUV suggests shallow cheerleading. I have noticed many such vehicles also sport "Proud Marine" and other vet insignia. Also, the "Bush Lied" and "Cheney is Satan" stickers ubiquitous in Seattle do not seem to fund anti-war candidates or other peace efforts. Why these stickers would be considered "sensible" while the yellow ribbons "not sensible" I do not understand.

The difference is assumed (whether true or not) to be that buying those ribbons and placing them on your car does not, in itself, to anything to actually support the troops despite that being the message that you are proclaiming to the world by slapping them on your car. Cynically, they are a placebo that makes the purchaser feel better without actually living up to it.

Darth Rotor · 22nd February 2007, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

The difference is assumed (whether true or not) to be that buying those ribbons and placing them on your car does not, in itself, to anything to actually support the troops despite that being the message that you are proclaiming to the world by slapping them on your car. Cynically, they are a placebo that makes the purchaser feel better without actually living up to it.

Why do you (or whomever) assume that the sticker is as far as it goes? What army of straw is being recruited this time?

DR

Upchurch · 22nd February 2007, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Why do you (or whomever) assume that the sticker is as far as it goes? What army of straw is being recruited this time?

Sorry, got distracted and didn't complete the thought.

The second component is the SUV which consumes in great quantities the resource that makes us dependent on foreign nations, perhaps even some of the people we're currently fighting. They are also, therefore, helping to support those our troops are fighting against by consuming more oil than is really necessary.

As for what the basis of the above assumption is, I'm not really sure. I suppose I can fall back on the easy answer of being cynical or maybe based on somone they know or anecdotes. I really don't know.

I doubt there is much in the way of studies on the financial troop supporting habits of ribbon adorned SUV drivers to provide any sort of definitive answer.

steverino · 22nd February 2007, 10:59 AM

Some SUV owners car-pool, recycle, wear a rubber to reduce population, and commute by train to their jobs. And some hybrid car-owners leave their living room lights on when they go to bed, and drive alone to work.

And to say that applying a yellow ribbon is not a proactive enough act to support our troops, how does having a Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker affixed to said hybrid car directly contribute to peace, the environment, or organic farming?

Upchurch · 22nd February 2007, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by steverino

Some SUV owners car-pool, recycle, wear a rubber to reduce population, and commute by train to their jobs. And some hybrid car-owners leave their living room lights on when they go to bed, and drive alone to work.

What are you basing that on?

Originally Posted by steverino

And to say that applying a yellow ribbon is not a proactive enough act to support our troops,

How does it support our troops?

Originally Posted by steverino

how does having a Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker affixed to said hybrid car directly contribute to peace, the environment, or organic farming?

Who said that was the point of a Kerry/Edwards sticker?

(and theoretically, the hybrid car itself contributes to the environment by consuming less fuel and generating less fuel waste.)

Tailgater · 22nd February 2007, 11:32 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong Steve, but are you saying that most people try to do a few half-ass things to show what they really support and mean well, but not everyone has the dedication to go 100% no matter what the issue? Maybe in their heart they are supportive, but are too ignorant or lazy (those might be extreme descriptions) to dedicate their lives to the cause?

I had a friend in college I used to pick on for putting a peace and earthday sticker on his Oldsmobile Delta 88 that puked out black smoke every time he touched the gas pedal. He felt like he was doing a good thing by advertising something good.

steverino · 22nd February 2007, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

What are you basing that on?

It is anecdotal, and I am obviously pointing out the double standards when we create symbols and assign broad-brushed stereotypes to cars. Like, people who drive little red sports cars are all speeders.[/quote]

Originally Posted by Upchurch

How does it support our troops?

"The Twelfth Man"

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Who said that was the point of a Kerry/Edwards sticker?

My point here is that all bumper stickers make a point, but only to a certain extent. Why expect more from conservative bumper stickers than from liberal bumper stickers?

Originally Posted by Upchurch

(and theoretically, the hybrid car itself contributes to the environment by consuming less fuel and generating less fuel waste.)

Again, I would have to look at the hybrid owner's entire lifestyle, how that individual consumes, pollutes, where and how he earns his living, spends his money. I know two people with hybrids. Both are pricks. One screwed me in business, and the other...screwed me in business. But, OK, they recycle. IOW, hybrid does not always equal "descent person."

steverino · 22nd February 2007, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Tailgater

Correct me if I'm wrong Steve, but are you saying that most people try to do a few half-ass things to show what they really support and mean well, but not everyone has the dedication to go 100% no matter what the issue? Maybe in their heart they are supportive, but are too ignorant or lazy (those might be extreme descriptions) to dedicate their lives to the cause?

I think that is what I am saying. I think if in your heart you support our troops, that's saying a hell of a lot. I do not see the hypocracy in the yellow ribbons.

Originally Posted by Tailgater

I had a friend in college I used to pick on for putting a peace and earthday sticker on his Oldsmobile Delta 88 that puked out black smoke every time he touched the gas pedal. He felt like he was doing a good thing by advertising something good.

Well I think he did. He made an impression on you!

ConspiRaider · 22nd February 2007, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by steverino

And to say that applying a yellow ribbon is not a proactive enough act to support our troops, how does having a Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker affixed to said hybrid car directly contribute to peace, the environment, or organic farming?

Just for clarity, I actually WAS a troop many years ago with 5 years active duty service (Navy).

Today - NOBODY doesn't support the troops, generally speaking. Troops do what they do, they make great sacrifices, some are killed, some maimed for life. They go where they are told and they do what they are ordered to do. There is no basis for non-support of the troops, by Americans. So, why do we need a magnet? We don't.

I absolutely know of family and friends who buy those ridiculous "Support the Troops" magnets for a buck, slap 'em on the car or fridge, and feel they've "done their part". No need to look any further into this, I'm a good American, I'm behind our brave troops out there fighting the good cause.

Getting Americans behind this illegal Iraq invasion is a many-headed hydra, the magnetic ribbon ploy being just one head, or a portion thereof. It's a very subtle (or maybe not so subtle) method of "shutting up" the populace about the war. Speak out against the war, will you? Don't you know that when you do that, you hurt our brave troops? Here, have a sticker and feel all better.

If the buck-a-sticker said: "Support The Iraq War Starters", now we're talking. Now we're getting down to the reality that troops don't start wars, but politicians do. Troops merely do the dying and the sacrificing and the getting maimed.

Upchurch · 22nd February 2007, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by steverino

It is anecdotal, and I am obviously pointing out the double standards when we create symbols and assign broad-brushed stereotypes to cars. Like, people who drive little red sports cars are all speeders.

It's not a double standard at all. It's pretty much the generalization that is applied across the board.

Originally Posted by steverino

"The Twelfth Man"

I don't understand the reference.

Originally Posted by steverino

My point here is that all bumper stickers make a point, but only to a certain extent. Why expect more from conservative bumper stickers than from liberal bumper stickers?

I don't. That particular bumper sticker (which is harldy a conservative sentiment) on an SUV is somewhat ironic as a "protect the environment" sticker would be on a car that was belching smoke.

Tailgater · 22nd February 2007, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by ConspiRaider

Just for clarity, I actually WAS a troop many years ago with 5 years active duty service (Navy).

Today - NOBODY doesn't support the troops, generally speaking. Troops do what they do, they make great sacrifices, some are killed, some maimed for life. They go where they are told and they do what they are ordered to do. There is no basis for non-support of the troops, by Americans. So, why do we need a magnet? We don't.

I absolutely know of family and friends who buy those ridiculous "Support the Troops" magnets for a buck, slap 'em on the car or fridge, and feel they've "done their part". No need to look any further into this, I'm a good American, I'm behind our brave troops out there fighting the good cause.

Getting Americans behind this illegal Iraq invasion is a many-headed hydra, the magnetic ribbon ploy being just one head, or a portion thereof. It's a very subtle (or maybe not so subtle) method of "shutting up" the populace about the war. Speak out against the war, will you? Don't you know that when you do that, you hurt our brave troops? Here, have a sticker and feel all better.

If the buck-a-sticker said: "Support The Iraq War Starters", now we're talking. Now we're getting down to the reality that troops don't start wars, but politicians do. Troops merely do the dying and the sacrificing and the getting maimed.

I know people who have the yellow ribbon and "stop the war" stickers side by side. What do think of that? I don't think the yellow ribbon means you support the war. Being a vet, would you rather see the yellow ribbon or "soldiers are baby killers"? I would hope that most people can seperate supporting the troops and not being in Iraq. Some don't, but putting the ribbon around the tree doesn't have equivalency to "I support Bush in Iraq".

Tailgater · 22nd February 2007, 11:52 AM

Upchurch- Twelth man is a NBA reference to a guy on the bench that comes in and lifts the team either through cheerleading or filling in and playing like the starters. There is a twelth man award for such a person each year.

The yellow ribbon symbolizes wanting and waiting for the troops to come home safely anyway. It has nothing to do with the war other than that.

steverino · 22nd February 2007, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Tailgater

I know people who have the yellow ribbon and "stop the war" stickers side by side. What do think of that? I don't think the yellow ribbon means you support the war. Being a vet, would you rather see the yellow ribbon or "soldiers are baby killers"? I would hope that most people can seperate supporting the troops and not being in Iraq. Some don't, but putting the ribbon around the tree doesn't have equivalency to "I support Bush in Iraq".

Great points! Also, if a yellow ribbon was placed on a hybrid, would that be cool?

steverino · 22nd February 2007, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by ConspiRaider

There is no basis for non-support of the troops, by Americans.

My head is spinning.

21st February 2007, 05:45 AM	#1
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	The Fallacy of Supporting Our Troops I can remember way back during the last Presidential elections when BushCo. was asserting that J.K. wouldn't support our troops adequately. We all know that they STILL don't have adequate body armor, adequate armor for their vehicles, have had V.A. benefits cut, but the truth regarding the conditions of a main military hospital have remained hidden until now. Isn't this something Ron Kovic addressed in his book, "Born on the 4th of July?" Leadership blamed for shabby Army hospital building POSTED: 8:45 p.m. EST, February 20, 2007 WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Army Secretary Francis Harvey blamed a failure of leadership for substandard conditions in a building that is part of Walter Reed Army Medical Center and vowed Tuesday to move quickly to fix the problem. "We failed here, we failed in having a facility like this," Harvey told CNN. "Unfortunately, it's a leadership problem." Inside Building 18, used for outpatients who suffered wounds in Iraq and Afghanistan, workers were repairing plumbing, covering holes in ceilings and repainting mold-covered walls. (Watch a tour of the run-down facility ) Harvey said he learned about the conditions in the building, a former hotel where some soldiers have been recuperating for more than a year and a half, on Sunday, when the Washington Post broke the story. "If we would have known about this, we would have fixed it," he said. "Unfortunately, we didn't know about it." http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/20/walter.reed/index.html ___________ I don't buy this excuse any more than I bought the excuses for Abu Grahib. Any military commander who claims ignorance as an excuse is clearly NOT concerned for his troops.
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

21st February 2007, 06:58 AM	#2
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	Perhaps this might have something to do with it: Quote: The Base Realignment and Closure Commission in 2005 recommended closing Walter Reed in 2010.
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759

21st February 2007, 07:13 AM	#3
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by Luke T. Perhaps this might have something to do with it: Apparently they were counting on the assumption that there would be no casualties in the Iraq war. Robertson says Bush told him there would be no deaths in Iraq Thursday, October 21, 2004 at 07:43 EST WASHINGTON — Religious broadcaster Pat Robertson says he warned President George Bush before U.S. troops invaded Iraq that the United States would sustain casualties but that Bush responded, "Oh, no, we're not going to have any casualties." http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/316221/all
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

21st February 2007, 07:15 AM	#4
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Body armor? Vehicle armor? Benefits? What the hell are you on about? Troop support is about magnetic car ribbons!
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

21st February 2007, 07:17 AM	#5
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,189	Originally Posted by Mephisto Robertson says Bush told him there would be no deaths in Iraq I'm surprised, Mephisto, that you consider Robertson an authoritative source of information.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

21st February 2007, 07:18 AM	#6
Overman Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 2,630	Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas Body armor? Vehicle armor? Benefits? What the hell are you on about? Troop support is about magnetic car ribbons! of which the money made selling them doesn't even go to help the troops at all!!! YEAH!
	__________________ Our new album 'The Future is Gonna be Great' on iTunes!!! Our old 'The Evolution EP' still on iTunes

21st February 2007, 07:19 AM	#7
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas Body armor? Vehicle armor? Benefits? What the hell are you on about? Troop support is about magnetic car ribbons! Unfortunately, you're 100% correct. BTW, I saw an interesting one recently - it was a yellow infinity symbol with the words, "War without end."
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

21st February 2007, 07:46 AM	#9
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by Ziggurat I'm surprised, Mephisto, that you consider Robertson an authoritative source of information. I don't, but I do find it ironic that two men who both claim that God talks to them have very different takes on the same story. Robertson was just the more correct of the two, which is noteworthy since A. he had no reason to lie, and probably didn't fabricate the story, and B. wasn't quite as enthused about who Jesus would bomb.
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

21st February 2007, 07:53 AM	#10
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by Upchurch Obligatory warning of some bad language: Now, that was neither constructive OR in good taste! I LOVED it! Thanks for making my day.
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

21st February 2007, 07:53 AM	#11
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,189	Originally Posted by Mephisto I don't Sure you do. You referenced his account of a statement Bush supposedly made for which there is no coroborating evidence, which would be quite extraordinary indeed if true, and which doesn't resemble any comments Bush has made which can be coroborated. Why do you believe his account? I see no possible motivation on your part to accept Robertson's word in this case (when I'm quite confident you wouldn't in general) except that it makes Bush look bad.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

21st February 2007, 07:57 AM	#12
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Sure you do. You referenced his account of a statement Bush supposedly made for which there is no coroborating evidence, which would be quite extraordinary indeed if true, and which doesn't resemble any comments Bush has made which can be coroborated. Why do you believe his account? I see no possible motivation on your part to accept Robertson's word in this case (when I'm quite confident you wouldn't in general) except that it makes Bush look bad. Got any other explainations for why WRAH is so shabby during wartime? Again, what would be Robertson's impetus in claiming it were true, especially since he is a Bush supporter?
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

21st February 2007, 08:22 AM	#13
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,189	Originally Posted by Mephisto Got any other explainations for why WRAH is so shabby during wartime? You'll have to spell out the acronym since I don't know what it refers to. Quote: Again, what would be Robertson's impetus in claiming it were true, especially since he is a Bush supporter? Who knows? Maybe he thinks Bush's unpopularity is a threat to him, and so wants to make it look like his former support was due to Bush tricking him. I don't know, and neither do you, but there's at least one reason, and I could probably come up with more. Conversely, why would Bush make a claim (that there would be no casualties) which Robertson himself didn't believe, which wasn't necessary to support the decision to invade, and which was so obviously not going to be true? Isn't that really a harder question to answer than why Robertson might lie about it after the fact? Of course it is. Unless, that is, your interest is primarily in making Bush look bad, and you'll assign credibility to any critic who comes along, even one that you otherwise wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

21st February 2007, 08:35 AM	#14
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,255	Originally Posted by Mephisto I can remember way back during the last Presidential elections when BushCo. was asserting that J.K. wouldn't support our troops adequately. We all know that they STILL don't have adequate body armor, adequate armor for their vehicles, have had V.A. benefits cut, but the truth regarding the conditions of a main military hospital have remained hidden until now. Hidden from whom? Are you on the Senate or House ASC? Quote: Isn't this something Ron Kovic addressed in his book, "Born on the 4th of July?" Did he discuss the BRAC process? Quote: I don't buy this excuse any more than I bought the excuses for Abu Grahib. Any military commander who claims ignorance as an excuse is clearly NOT concerned for his troops. I don't know who Sec Army is referring to either, in his "we." I do know that Base Operating funds have been in a crunch for about 15 years. I also know that VA funding has been a political football for quite some time. Heck, James Webb, now Senator from Virginia, got his entry into politics as a direct result of the battles he waged, most of them pro bono, on behalf of vets and VA shortcomings shortly after Viet Nam wound down. He got appointed as deputy assistant Sec Def for Veterans affairs as one of his first political jobs. If you get the chance, head on over to BAMC (Brook Army Medical Center) in San Antonio, Texas. Visit some of the young men and women there, many of them sans limbs or eyes. I imagine you have some friends from your 'Nam days who are missing parts and pieces. The visit to BAMC will give you a lift, as these young men and women are remarkably upbeat. I think they are getting the kind of support that you'd want, you'd want your 'Nam buddies to have gotten. "Support the troops" works on a very simple level: how do we American citizens respond to those who were over there, and came back? The political football on funding, and its varying decisions, and the maneuvering in Congress with the military as a political football, is old news. Pat Schroeder for fifty, Alex. The key matter of "support" is how We the People treat those who return. People who care, people like this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15130526/ Run the video to the right of the leading paragraph. That's what supporting the troops is all about, in direct contrast to the hate mongering libs and whiners, those who insulted and spit at some of our servicemen who came home from Viet Nam. I was a contributor to a motorcycle rally in San Antonio a couple of months ago. A friend at work let me know about it, as I am not a biker. The rally was people, good people on motorcycles and various citizens who joined in, supporting our troops, an event that I took my son to. It was organized by the US Marine unit in San Antonio. I was weeping by the time we left. This post of yours has the faint whiff of a Fred Phelps caper, though perhaps I misread your intention. Digression: When I hear of a Phelps protest at a funeral, I see red. Meph, playing "the troops card" for a political agenda is, how shall I say this, transparent. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis Last edited by Darth Rotor; 21st February 2007 at 09:06 AM.

21st February 2007, 03:55 PM	#16
AmateurScientist JREF Kid Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,325	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Digression: When I hear of a Phelps protest at a funeral, I see red. Meph, playing "the troops card" for a political agenda is, how shall I say this, transparent. DR Spot on, Darth. Way to call Meph on his BS. Pathetic, Meph, just pathetic. You should be ashamed of yourself, but I suspect you aren't, and that you fail even to understand why you should be. AS

22nd February 2007, 05:38 AM	#17
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Hidden from whom? From the majority of the American people, otherwise the condition of Walter Reed Army Hospital would only be known to veterans and their families and this story wouldn't be newsworthy Originally Posted by Darth Rotor I don't know who Sec Army is referring to either, in his "we." I do know that Base Operating funds have been in a crunch for about 15 years. I also know that VA funding has been a political football for quite some time. Heck, James Webb, now Senator from Virginia, got his entry into politics as a direct result of the battles he waged, most of them pro bono, on behalf of vets and VA shortcomings shortly after Viet Nam wound down. He got appointed as deputy assistant Sec Def for Veterans affairs as one of his first political jobs. And veterans could definitely use more Senators like James Webb. The plight of disabled veterans continues long after any particular war is over and forgotten. Originally Posted by Darth Rotor If you get the chance, head on over to BAMC (Brook Army Medical Center) in San Antonio, Texas. Visit some of the young men and women there, many of them sans limbs or eyes. I imagine you have some friends from your 'Nam days who are missing parts and pieces. The visit to BAMC will give you a lift, as these young men and women are remarkably upbeat. I think they are getting the kind of support that you'd want, you'd want your 'Nam buddies to have gotten. I agree with you completely. I am ALWAYS in awe of the resiliance of our returning veterans and I'm glad that those returning from this war remain upbeat - it shows how important the support of the ordinary citizen can be. What bothers me is that so much money is earmarked by the current administration to further the war, while major facilities like Walter Reed are in such disrepair. The fact that our wounded and disabled militarymen and women are so thankful for the care they receive is testament to their courage and dedication, and although I've seen my share of shoddy facilities it's always the kindess and understanding of the medical staff that has made the difference. Their hands are tied by budget constraints and the whims of politicians who juggle the finances required to make their sacrifices tolerable. Originally Posted by Darth Rotor "Support the troops" works on a very simple level: how do we American citizens respond to those who were over there, and came back? The political football on funding, and its varying decisions, and the maneuvering in Congress with the military as a political football, is old news. Pat Schroeder for fifty, Alex. The key matter of "support" is how We the People treat those who return. People who care, people like this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15130526/ Run the video to the right of the leading paragraph. I agree, and was very thankful for the link you provided. It's good to know that the American people are behind our troops enough to know that a simple gesture of kindess, gratitude or understanding goes a long way toward making a soldier feel what he has done was worthwhile. It was also good to note that even those who oppose this war aren't adopting the tactics of many of those who opposed the Vietnam war. The attitude of the protestors of that generation was doubly detrimental considering the draft. Originally Posted by Darth Rotor That's what supporting the troops is all about, in direct contrast to the hate mongering libs and whiners, those who insulted and spit at some of our servicemen who came home from Viet Nam. Again, I agree wholeheartedly. Originally Posted by Darth Rotor This post of yours has the faint whiff of a Fred Phelps caper, though perhaps I misread your intention. I'm sorry if I sounded as though I was using a pile of disabled veterans as a soapbox to speak against the Bush administration. It's no secret that I hold them (Bush and cronies) in utter contempt. I can't help but hear their rhetoric that justifies sending more troops into this useless war, and I can't help but feel the apprehensions of those returning to Iraq for their second or third tour. I hope you've also taken notice of the fact that many aren't even allowed their honorable discharge when the time comes. I can still remember the Vietnam tendency to count down the days until one left the 'Nam, and can remember how nervous everyone got the "shorter" they were. The current generation of soldiers doesn't even have that luxury as they must know that even if they make it through their current tour 'in country,' they'll likely be sent back. I'm also in awe of the dedication of the soldiers of this generation as they are offered the choice to rejoin their comrades even AFTER losing a limb. Do I deserve comparison to Fred Phelps (who also makes me see red) for believing that they shouldn't be taken advantage of? Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Digression: When I hear of a Phelps protest at a funeral, I see red. I'm in complete agreement with you here. Idiots like Phelps are so self-involved that they can't even realize that their free speech comes at the expense of those he's protesting/ Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Meph, playing "the troops card" for a political agenda is, how shall I say this, transparent. DR Again, my vocal hated of this administration may sound as though my concern for our troops and veterans is contrived, but I sometimes can't wrap my brain around the fact that they are constantly asking for more money to fight this war (or to rebuild Iraq) while the facilities caring for a whole new generation of disabled veterans are STILL substandard. I'm a member of several veteran's organizations (DAV, VFW, The American Legion) and I wholeheartedly invite ALL Americans to give generously to these or similar organizations as they strive to keep the sacrifices of our militarymen and women in the forefront and to keep the greedy hands of politicians away from the money that helps keep their lives productive. Supporting our troops is (as most here pointed out) a LOT more than just putting a yellow magnet on your SUV.
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi Last edited by Mephisto; 22nd February 2007 at 05:48 AM.

22nd February 2007, 05:44 AM	#18
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,255	Originally Posted by Mephisto Do I deserve comparison to Fred Phelps (who also makes me see red) for believing that they shouldn't be taken advantage of? No, I was reading something into your post, I think. My bad. Quote: Supporting our troops is (as most here pointed out) a LOT more than just putting a yellow magnet on your SUV. Yep. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

22nd February 2007, 05:49 AM	#19
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by AmateurScientist You should be ashamed of yourself, but I suspect you aren't, and that you fail even to understand why you should be. AS Maybe you should "enlighten" me.
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

22nd February 2007, 05:58 AM	#21
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,920	Originally Posted by Ziggurat I'm surprised, Mephisto, that you consider Robertson an authoritative source of information. only, potentially, for what he personally has been told. And given Bush, I actually believe this is possible.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,920

22nd February 2007, 06:04 AM	#22
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,325	Originally Posted by AmateurScientist Spot on, Darth. Way to call Meph on his BS. Pathetic, Meph, just pathetic. You should be ashamed of yourself, but I suspect you aren't, and that you fail even to understand why you should be. AS What is 'supporting' troops? DR writes off all critics of the Vietnam War as people who spat on returning troops from Vietnam. Supporting troops, I would say, involves making sure that you first of all only send them off to fight wars that are morally and logically correct and for causes for which all reasons are open and transparently clear. If you can't get that right, the rest is just a muddled hash of trying to make a bad situation good.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

22nd February 2007, 06:08 AM	#23
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by a_unique_person Language? What's wrong with singing about your country? Nothing at all, it's singing about your cun . t . . . ry that can get you in trouble. And that's coming from a sol . . . . dier.
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

22nd February 2007, 06:11 AM	#24
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,255	Originally Posted by a_unique_person What is 'supporting' troops? DR writes off all critics of the Vietnam War as people who spat on returning troops from Vietnam. Supporting troops, I would say, involves making sure that you first of all only send them off to fight wars that are morally and logically correct and for causes for which all reasons are open and transparently clear. If you can't get that right, the rest is just a muddled hash of trying to make a bad situation good. You are lying again, AUP. I do not like to use that term, liar, unless it is clearly warranted. I see it far too often on this board. Your complete mischaracterization of my post will not go unremarked. That's what supporting the troops is all about, in direct contrast to the hate mongering libs and whiners, those who insulted and spit at some of our servicemen who came home from Viet Nam. Where in that do you find "all critics of the Viet Nam War?' DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

22nd February 2007, 06:52 AM	#25
AmateurScientist JREF Kid Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,325	Originally Posted by Mephisto Maybe you should "enlighten" me. Given your tone ("enlighten" in quotes), and given my impression from the posts of yours that I have read that you have difficulty seeing past your own ideological nose, I see no point. No thanks. AS

22nd February 2007, 07:01 AM	#26
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by AmateurScientist Given your tone ("enlighten" in quotes), and given my impression from the posts of yours that I have read that you have difficulty seeing past your own ideological nose, I see no point. No thanks. AS Originally Posted by AmateurScientist Spot on, Darth. Way to call Meph on his BS. Pathetic, Meph, just pathetic. You should be ashamed of yourself, but I suspect you aren't, and that you fail even to understand why you should be. AS Maybe you'd also care to explain how THIS tone is superior to mine? You have a right to your opinion and a right to disagree with my ideological assertions - isn't that just what makes our country great?
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

22nd February 2007, 09:51 AM	#27
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,424	Originally Posted by a_unique_person Language? What's wrong with singing about your country? The lead singer drops an f-bomb near the end. (I know. I've listened to it many times.) Anything else, I don't know what you're talking about. Originally Posted by steverino I do not accept, however, that placing a yellow ribbon magnet on one's SUV suggests shallow cheerleading. I have noticed many such vehicles also sport "Proud Marine" and other vet insignia. Also, the "Bush Lied" and "Cheney is Satan" stickers ubiquitous in Seattle do not seem to fund anti-war candidates or other peace efforts. Why these stickers would be considered "sensible" while the yellow ribbons "not sensible" I do not understand. The difference is assumed (whether true or not) to be that buying those ribbons and placing them on your car does not, in itself, to anything to actually support the troops despite that being the message that you are proclaiming to the world by slapping them on your car. Cynically, they are a placebo that makes the purchaser feel better without actually living up to it.

22nd February 2007, 09:53 AM	#28
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,255	Originally Posted by Upchurch The difference is assumed (whether true or not) to be that buying those ribbons and placing them on your car does not, in itself, to anything to actually support the troops despite that being the message that you are proclaiming to the world by slapping them on your car. Cynically, they are a placebo that makes the purchaser feel better without actually living up to it. Why do you (or whomever) assume that the sticker is as far as it goes? What army of straw is being recruited this time? DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

22nd February 2007, 10:09 AM	#29
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,424	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Why do you (or whomever) assume that the sticker is as far as it goes? What army of straw is being recruited this time? Sorry, got distracted and didn't complete the thought. The second component is the SUV which consumes in great quantities the resource that makes us dependent on foreign nations, perhaps even some of the people we're currently fighting. They are also, therefore, helping to support those our troops are fighting against by consuming more oil than is really necessary. As for what the basis of the above assumption is, I'm not really sure. I suppose I can fall back on the easy answer of being cynical or maybe based on somone they know or anecdotes. I really don't know. I doubt there is much in the way of studies on the financial troop supporting habits of ribbon adorned SUV drivers to provide any sort of definitive answer.

22nd February 2007, 10:59 AM	#30
steverino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 3,688	Some SUV owners car-pool, recycle, wear a rubber to reduce population, and commute by train to their jobs. And some hybrid car-owners leave their living room lights on when they go to bed, and drive alone to work. And to say that applying a yellow ribbon is not a proactive enough act to support our troops, how does having a Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker affixed to said hybrid car directly contribute to peace, the environment, or organic farming?
	__________________ "Ferchrissakes I am not Jewish..."- Darth Rotor "Well, my nipples are pink. I've never looked at my own butt-hole, but I hope it's pink too." Mycroft "In the military, a gay man might see a wiener, and we all know that when a gay man sees a wiener, he goes into an uncontrollable frenzy of lust."- Marquis de Carabas

22nd February 2007, 11:21 AM	#31
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,424	Originally Posted by steverino Some SUV owners car-pool, recycle, wear a rubber to reduce population, and commute by train to their jobs. And some hybrid car-owners leave their living room lights on when they go to bed, and drive alone to work. What are you basing that on? Originally Posted by steverino And to say that applying a yellow ribbon is not a proactive enough act to support our troops, How does it support our troops? Originally Posted by steverino how does having a Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker affixed to said hybrid car directly contribute to peace, the environment, or organic farming? Who said that was the point of a Kerry/Edwards sticker? (and theoretically, the hybrid car itself contributes to the environment by consuming less fuel and generating less fuel waste.)

22nd February 2007, 11:32 AM	#32
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	Correct me if I'm wrong Steve, but are you saying that most people try to do a few half-ass things to show what they really support and mean well, but not everyone has the dedication to go 100% no matter what the issue? Maybe in their heart they are supportive, but are too ignorant or lazy (those might be extreme descriptions) to dedicate their lives to the cause? I had a friend in college I used to pick on for putting a peace and earthday sticker on his Oldsmobile Delta 88 that puked out black smoke every time he touched the gas pedal. He felt like he was doing a good thing by advertising something good.
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212

22nd February 2007, 11:33 AM	#33
steverino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 3,688	Originally Posted by Upchurch What are you basing that on? It is anecdotal, and I am obviously pointing out the double standards when we create symbols and assign broad-brushed stereotypes to cars. Like, people who drive little red sports cars are all speeders.[/quote] Originally Posted by Upchurch How does it support our troops? "The Twelfth Man" Originally Posted by Upchurch Who said that was the point of a Kerry/Edwards sticker? My point here is that all bumper stickers make a point, but only to a certain extent. Why expect more from conservative bumper stickers than from liberal bumper stickers? Originally Posted by Upchurch (and theoretically, the hybrid car itself contributes to the environment by consuming less fuel and generating less fuel waste.) Again, I would have to look at the hybrid owner's entire lifestyle, how that individual consumes, pollutes, where and how he earns his living, spends his money. I know two people with hybrids. Both are pricks. One screwed me in business, and the other...screwed me in business. But, OK, they recycle. IOW, hybrid does not always equal "descent person."
	__________________ "Ferchrissakes I am not Jewish..."- Darth Rotor "Well, my nipples are pink. I've never looked at my own butt-hole, but I hope it's pink too." Mycroft "In the military, a gay man might see a wiener, and we all know that when a gay man sees a wiener, he goes into an uncontrollable frenzy of lust."- Marquis de Carabas Last edited by steverino; 22nd February 2007 at 11:41 AM.

22nd February 2007, 11:38 AM	#34
steverino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 3,688	Originally Posted by Tailgater Correct me if I'm wrong Steve, but are you saying that most people try to do a few half-ass things to show what they really support and mean well, but not everyone has the dedication to go 100% no matter what the issue? Maybe in their heart they are supportive, but are too ignorant or lazy (those might be extreme descriptions) to dedicate their lives to the cause? I think that is what I am saying. I think if in your heart you support our troops, that's saying a hell of a lot. I do not see the hypocracy in the yellow ribbons. Originally Posted by Tailgater I had a friend in college I used to pick on for putting a peace and earthday sticker on his Oldsmobile Delta 88 that puked out black smoke every time he touched the gas pedal. He felt like he was doing a good thing by advertising something good. Well I think he did. He made an impression on you!
	__________________ "Ferchrissakes I am not Jewish..."- Darth Rotor "Well, my nipples are pink. I've never looked at my own butt-hole, but I hope it's pink too." Mycroft "In the military, a gay man might see a wiener, and we all know that when a gay man sees a wiener, he goes into an uncontrollable frenzy of lust."- Marquis de Carabas

22nd February 2007, 11:38 AM	#35
ConspiRaider Writer of Nothingnesses Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 11,169	Originally Posted by steverino And to say that applying a yellow ribbon is not a proactive enough act to support our troops, how does having a Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker affixed to said hybrid car directly contribute to peace, the environment, or organic farming? Just for clarity, I actually WAS a troop many years ago with 5 years active duty service (Navy). Today - NOBODY doesn't support the troops, generally speaking. Troops do what they do, they make great sacrifices, some are killed, some maimed for life. They go where they are told and they do what they are ordered to do. There is no basis for non-support of the troops, by Americans. So, why do we need a magnet? We don't. I absolutely know of family and friends who buy those ridiculous "Support the Troops" magnets for a buck, slap 'em on the car or fridge, and feel they've "done their part". No need to look any further into this, I'm a good American, I'm behind our brave troops out there fighting the good cause. Getting Americans behind this illegal Iraq invasion is a many-headed hydra, the magnetic ribbon ploy being just one head, or a portion thereof. It's a very subtle (or maybe not so subtle) method of "shutting up" the populace about the war. Speak out against the war, will you? Don't you know that when you do that, you hurt our brave troops? Here, have a sticker and feel all better. If the buck-a-sticker said: "Support The Iraq War Starters", now we're talking. Now we're getting down to the reality that troops don't start wars, but politicians do. Troops merely do the dying and the sacrificing and the getting maimed.

22nd February 2007, 11:43 AM	#36
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,424	Originally Posted by steverino It is anecdotal, and I am obviously pointing out the double standards when we create symbols and assign broad-brushed stereotypes to cars. Like, people who drive little red sports cars are all speeders. It's not a double standard at all. It's pretty much the generalization that is applied across the board. Originally Posted by steverino "The Twelfth Man" I don't understand the reference. Originally Posted by steverino My point here is that all bumper stickers make a point, but only to a certain extent. Why expect more from conservative bumper stickers than from liberal bumper stickers? I don't. That particular bumper sticker (which is harldy a conservative sentiment) on an SUV is somewhat ironic as a "protect the environment" sticker would be on a car that was belching smoke.

22nd February 2007, 11:50 AM	#37
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	Originally Posted by ConspiRaider Just for clarity, I actually WAS a troop many years ago with 5 years active duty service (Navy). Today - NOBODY doesn't support the troops, generally speaking. Troops do what they do, they make great sacrifices, some are killed, some maimed for life. They go where they are told and they do what they are ordered to do. There is no basis for non-support of the troops, by Americans. So, why do we need a magnet? We don't. I absolutely know of family and friends who buy those ridiculous "Support the Troops" magnets for a buck, slap 'em on the car or fridge, and feel they've "done their part". No need to look any further into this, I'm a good American, I'm behind our brave troops out there fighting the good cause. Getting Americans behind this illegal Iraq invasion is a many-headed hydra, the magnetic ribbon ploy being just one head, or a portion thereof. It's a very subtle (or maybe not so subtle) method of "shutting up" the populace about the war. Speak out against the war, will you? Don't you know that when you do that, you hurt our brave troops? Here, have a sticker and feel all better. If the buck-a-sticker said: "Support The Iraq War Starters", now we're talking. Now we're getting down to the reality that troops don't start wars, but politicians do. Troops merely do the dying and the sacrificing and the getting maimed. I know people who have the yellow ribbon and "stop the war" stickers side by side. What do think of that? I don't think the yellow ribbon means you support the war. Being a vet, would you rather see the yellow ribbon or "soldiers are baby killers"? I would hope that most people can seperate supporting the troops and not being in Iraq. Some don't, but putting the ribbon around the tree doesn't have equivalency to "I support Bush in Iraq".
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212

22nd February 2007, 11:52 AM	#38
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	Upchurch- Twelth man is a NBA reference to a guy on the bench that comes in and lifts the team either through cheerleading or filling in and playing like the starters. There is a twelth man award for such a person each year. The yellow ribbon symbolizes wanting and waiting for the troops to come home safely anyway. It has nothing to do with the war other than that.
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	Last edited by Tailgater; 22nd February 2007 at 11:56 AM.