Carl Sagan and Richard Dawkin's philosophy, brainwashers or truth?

I made this post, because I realized alot of the atheists are brainwashed by the 2 above. I say "brainwashed" because they dont have the intellect to see their flawed arguments, because of that, they become an atheist...

I post this to type what is the best argument you got from this guys to discredit the existence of God.. Post them whatever it is..So I can point to you the problem with it which you guys FAILED to see......

----
I post this to type what is the best argument you got from this guys to discredit the existence of God.. Post them whatever it is..
----


No uncontroversial, clear physical evidence?

[bangdazap]

Who created god?

[specious_reasons]

Quote:

Originally posted by muscleman

I post this to type what is the best argument you got from this guys to discredit the existence of God.. Post them whatever it is..So I can point to you the problem with it which you guys FAILED to see......

Why don't you do the work yourself, read what they have to say, then post your rebuttals?

[pgwenthold]

Quote:

Originally posted by muscleman
I made this post, because I realized alot of the atheists are brainwashed by the 2 above. I say "brainwashed" because they dont have the intellect to see their flawed arguments, because of that, they become an atheist...

I post this to type what is the best argument you got from this guys to discredit the existence of God.. Post them whatever it is..So I can point to you the problem with it which you guys FAILED to see......

1) I really know very little about what either of them have said, (Didn't Sagan say "Billions and billions..."?) so it is silly to claim that I have been brainwashed by them. Strawman down the tubes.

2) God who?

[Filippo Lippi]

I expect the answer is that they, Sagan and Dawkins, are/were either

a/ MORONS
b/ Asians
c/ A little from column A and a little from column B

[rachaella]

Quote:

Originally posted by Fillipo Lippi
I expect the answer is that they, Sagan and Dawkins, are/were either

a/ MORONS
b/ Asians
c/ A little from column A and a little from column B

You forgot hindus, gays, and child molesters.

[Filippo Lippi]

How have these two brainwashed people exactly?

By running special Atheist Classes every Sunday morning for youngsters?
By making people recite mantras to their no-God over and over again?

Perhaps if muscleman could take a moment to describe precisely who this God character is that he keeps talking about?

Then perhaps he could provide some corroborating evidence for what he says about it.

Otherwise, without any definitions for "God", we're all just talking gibberish.

[Filippo Lippi]

Isn't JC reported to have said "do as you would be done by?"

Or was it Charles Kingsley?

Quote:

Originally posted by bangdazap
Who created god?

IF GOD CREATED THE UNIVERSE,
THEN WHO CREATED GOD?





Bob, a computer-engineer scientist engineered a 7-inch artificially intelligent robot, capable of judgment & learning independently. He also engineered a city made out of iron as big as a football stadium. The scientist can see the robot 200 feet above, but it can’t see him for its vision is limited to 20 feet.


Years past, all the robot learned is machine stadium & self. The robot was skeptic & said, “Did someone engineered me or was I engineered by Luck (accident, chance, etc.)?” The scientist in hearing these spoke to the robot’s computer chip brain through a walkie-talkie & said “Mr. Bob engineered you my friend”, robot replied, “Well if Bob engineered me, who engineered Bob?” the scientist replied “Bob cannot be engineered. You don’t understand”, the robot then said, “Through my observation & study (science) Bob is either engineered or he doesn’t exist” Bob being aware of robot’s limited intellect said, “Bob is, he is who is. Bob cannot be engineered, Bob’s kingdom is not in your world.”


Dan painted a living imaginary girl. Dan placed the living painting on a picture frame in his garage surrounded by nothing else but paints, paint floor, roof, wall, etc. as an art exhibit. The only thing other than paints in his garage is the wood frame. The painting observed &studied what’s around her. She can see paints around her, thus she knows she came from paint. The farthest she can see is the wood frame, because its unreachable, she assume the wood is some sort of paint, for paint is all she knows.



Years past, the painting was skeptic & said, “Did someone painted me or was I painted through Luck (accident, chance, etc.)?” Dan in hearing these spoke through the door crack & said “I painted you my friend”, painting replied “Well if you painted me, who painted you?” Dan replied, “I cannot be painted. Your world is not my world. You don’t understand,” the painting then said “Through my observation & study your either painted or you don’t exist” Dan knowing the painting is only exposed of paints but never of biology said to the painting “I just am as I am. I cannot be painted, my kingdom is not in your world.”


You see we believe only in existence of the tangible physical world. Through human observation & study, we are able to use the big bang theory, how life evolved, etc. This is human Biological understanding. The Big Bang, atom transformed into a cell, etc. whatever the theory is, that’s our understanding, God is beyond human understanding. We as a tangible physicality cannot relate to the spirit world, therefore we don’t understand God who is Spirit. That’s right u heard me, we cannot understand what we don’t relate to.
Even if the creator of the painting & robot revealed themselves to the creation, the robot & painting may hear it, but will not b able to relate to it. A robot brought out in the machine world was never exposed to the biological world, despite hearing it the robot will never relate to it, therefore the Robot will never understand it, that goes for the painting as well.


God revealed Himself to us to fit accordingly to our weak and transitory understanding. God is spirit. God is the Word became flesh, through the Word all came to be, & without the word nothing came to be (in other words through intelligence life existed), He is the light of the world, as everything existed through light, He is Word incarnate. Yahweh, Jehovah, Abba, etc. Can we understand God’s existence? Do we understand all this? Do we understand spirit? Were in the world of tangible physicality, we can never relate to Spirit, the existence of God; as a machine can never relate to the biological world.

So who created God the creator?


What kind of answer do u want? Physical products? Electrons protons/neutrons, amino acids, etc? Biological? Remember, God is Spirit- John. Spirit created tangible Physicality, God created the world. Why do u want physical understanding as an answer to the spirit? Should I give worldly understanding as an answer to the creator of the world? How can the worldly products create God who created the product of the world?

Alligator caused alligator bite marks. The foot caused footsteps. Engineers caused engineering, atheist caused atheism, designers caused designs, artist caused art, and Life giver caused life...


Can the existence of effect be used to explain the existence of the cause? How can you use the existence of a footprint (a mark on soil) as an explanation of the foot’s existence…nevertheless the body that holds the foot? How can u use a dog bite mark as an explanation of the dog’s creation? How can you use a creation as an explanation for the creator? I can state many analogies (maybe hundreds) that prove it’s impossible to use the creation as an explanation for its creator. For example, the existence and engineering creation of APPLE Mac computer cannot be used to explain the existence and biological creation of Bill Gates. Can you give one analogy that proves a creation can b used to explain its creator? Not at all!


What do I know about the creation of Spirit? Nothing! It’s like trying to physically prove to u what Ghost are made out of. Carbon monoxide? Hydrogen? These are all products of the world. I know God exist, but I don’t know how He exists.


Final answer is I cannot understand my creator. God may have a cause, but do I know what and how? Who can understand the mystery of God? Perhaps we may never find the answer to that question…Just because something can’t be explained, does it mean it’s a myth? So because u cannot explain what the black hole is, therefore black hole is a myth right? Or because u cannot explain how to cure cancer therefore cancer is a myth? I cannot explain homosexuals, so they r myth right? Is it visual? Because I cannot see oxygen therefore oxygen is a myth? Because I cannot see gas therefore gas is a myth? Because I cannot see gravity therefore gravity is a myth? I cannot see atom therefore atom is a myth? Because I cannot see what’s behind my wall, whatever is behind my wall is a myth? Because I cannot see 23 miles away from my city, therefore whatever is there is a myth? Is it taste & odor? Because I cannot see, feel, taste, smell the odorless tasteless poisonous gas, therefore it’s a myth? Because I cannot taste & smell the date rape drug, therefore it’s a myth? Because I cannot see, feel, taste, or smell your thoughts, therefore thoughts r myth? Because I cannot physically taste, or smell, or see your emotions, therefore emotions are myth? Because I have not seen, tasted, smelled, felt King Henry, Queen Elizabeth, Shakespeare, etc. therefore they r myth? So if you’re a dog, color blind, u would think color is a myth, but does the failure of your senses change facts? Is it about your 5 senses? I thought it’s about factual reality? If the 9 yrs old child have no idea how his father came into this world, does it mean his father is a myth? Do u feel me? I cannot explain child molesters, homosexuals, cancers, black hole, etc. & I cannot see or smell & taste atom, King Henry, Gas, Gravity, etc. & I don’t claim to understand God. But I know through solid logic factual evidence they all exist, Period.


My personal belief is that nothing Caused God for he is the causer and the creator cannot be created. (Don’t say I violate the principle of causality, I didn’t because through observation and study, that principle is applied to biological and technological existence, existence of the observed, not to the inaccessible “Spirit”, spirit ‘may’ have no need of cause but has always existed). I may have no scientific proof to believe that God is the truth, but neither does the atheist for claiming He is a liar, atheist people lied so many times because of that I have no reason to believe and put faith in both the immoral lawless atheism and atheists people.

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
----
I post this to type what is the best argument you got from this guys to discredit the existence of God.. Post them whatever it is..
----


No uncontroversial, clear physical evidence?

What do u mean by physical evidence? What you donot see, touch, and detect? If you havent heard it, then it dont exist? If u havent seen it, then it don exist? If technologies cant detect it, then it dont exist?

Explain child....And Ill get back at you with these....

[Lord Kenneth]

Quote:

Originally posted by muscleman


What do u mean by physical evidence? What you donot see, touch, and detect? If you havent heard it, then it dont exist? If u havent seen it, then it don exist? If technologies cant detect it, then it dont exist?

Explain child....And Ill get back at you with these....

No, you have no justification for thinking something exists without ANY evidence to show it.

Otherwise, you are just playing make belief. Sure, it may be right, but no evidence for a claim such as God is as far as we can go to show it doesn't exist-- which DOES NOT weaken the atheist position.

So, I take it a simple and consise definition for the term "God" is not forthcomming.

Well, if people want to discuss things without definitions, that's fine.

The flubrick guhdinged your flarb. It didn't flabur your guflanner. Then it sparfed a gazingoid and moofled.

----
If you havent heard it, then it dont exist? If u havent seen it, then it don exist? If technologies cant detect it, then it dont exist?
----


No, if I haven't seen or heard something, it can still exist.

But if anyone hasn't, then that is another story.

[rachaella]

Quote:

Originally posted by evildave
The flubrick guhdinged your flarb. It didn't flabur your guflanner. Then it sparfed a gazingoid and moofled.

It didn't moofle! Damn guzzible. It flugharted.

[Supercharts]

The Challenge of Thor
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

I AM the God Thor,
I am the War God,
I am the Thunderer!
Here in my Northland,
My fastness and fortress,
Reign I forever!
Here amid icebergs
Rule I the nations;
This is my hammer,
Miölner the mighty;
Giants and sorcerers
Cannot withstand it!

These are the gauntlets
Wherewith I wield it,
And hurl it afar off;
This is my girdle;
Whenever I brace it,
Strength is redoubled!

The light thou beholdest
Stream through the heavens,
In flashes of crimson,
Is but my red beard
Blown by the night-wind,
Affrighting the nations!
Jove is my brother;
Mine eyes are the lightning;
The wheels of my chariot
Roll in the thunder,
The blows of my hammer
Ring in the earthquake!

Force rules the world still,
Has ruled it, shall rule it;
Meekness is weakness,
Strength is triumphant,
Over the whole earth
Still is it Thor's-Day!

Thou art a God too,
O Galilean!
And thus singled-handed
Unto the combat,
Gauntlet or Gospel,
Here I defy thee!


Sagan and Dawkins have never disproved Thor. Dawkins avoids discussing Thor because he knows he can't prove a thing.

Atheist will say "If God is not fake because u want proof he is, then prove to me tooth fairies/unicorns/ OR "THOR" don’t hover around earth every night".

Smart Christian will say "A claim can b proven fake by lack of evidence. What evidence do u have of tooth fairy? How many eyewitnesses? Millions? If tooth fairies plucked out a teeth, is there any scientific investigation done to it?/ If so can u show it? How many testified? Show me healing, supernatural/miracles documented in the name of tooth fairy. How many died for tooth fairy to verify its value? / Thousands? Is there a Historical location of it? If so, where? Give up? Well tooth fairy because of its lack of evidence is fake. Period...


I hear alot of "toothfairy" and "giant purple squid monkey" or "THOR" being thrown around here and there in an attempt to disprove the existence of God...But why do atheists even use the word "SIX BREASTED DOMINATRIX FROM JUPITER" or giant purple squid monkey and claim to base their belief in scientific research?

Check this...Let us observe why atheists use "giant purple squid monkey" or "toothfairy" so many times in order to disprove God..

1.) Toothfairy contains no scientifical evidence, no historical logical location, no testimonial evidence...

2.) As a result, it gives them that "FEELING" that since it is illogic to believe in toothfairies which to them contains no evidence, then why should they believe in God? How is God any different??

There is alot of errors concerning this claims...First and foremost, existence of toothfairy claim & giant purple squid monkey cannot be used as analogy to the existence of God...

If u use toothfairy as analogy to the existence of God, then u should have no problem providing the same valid evidence as there is for God...

1.) Show me how many are martyred in the name of toothfairy....

2.) Show many how many churches built in the name of toothfairy...

3.) How many believers of the existence of toothfairy? MILLIONS? Are they professors? University Grads? Presidents? JUST TO CLARIFY IT, DONT USE INSANE, RETARDED, DRUG ADDICTS AS A REFFERENCE, OR 6 YRS OLD KIDS, THAT DOESNT GIVE THE SAME ANALOGICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD....

Using toothfairy and Giant purple squidmonkey as analogy to God is like saying "WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE A CAR CAN RUN AS FAST AS 60 MPH? MIGHT AS WELL BELIEVE A TOOTHPICK RUNS JUST AS FAST AS WELL..."

ITS STUPID, toothpick doesnt have an engine, doesnt have a wheel, etc. therefore u cant use toothpick as analogy to a car...In the same way u cant use toothfairy as analogy concerning the existence of God...Even if you can find ways to use science to prove the existence of toothfairies (though unlikely), u still cant use it as analogy to God unless of course u can provide the same amount of evidence....
-----------------------------------------------------------------


So what is the lesson here? That atheists based their beliefs on feelings and emotions as well...

I can understand many peeps became atheists bcus they reject miracles, effects of faith, testimonial evidence, historical evidence, etc... As a result of their denial, it had a great effect on them psychologically... In a way they are brainwashing themselves.. So its so easy for them to use toothfairy as analogy to God, because they see no evidence of God, the same way they see no evidence of toothfairy, NOT THAT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF GOD, THERE IS, BUT THEY ARE IN COMPLETE DENIAL, THUS BRAINWASHING THEMSELVES, A real hard effect on them psychologically, making them an atheist...


in summary: YOU CANNOT USE "TOOTHFAIRY" OR 6 BREASTED DOMINATRIX FROM JUPITER AS ANALOGY TO GOD, BECAUSE THAT IS LIKE USING A TOOTHPICK AS ANALOGY TO A CAR.....GOT IT ? ----------------------------------------------------------


Once again, In case you didnt get it...I will type it AGAIN (as always..)...A claim can be proven fake by lack of evidence......

It is important to use testiomy as an evidence when making analogy concerning God, bcuz thats part of God, having followers and all...

When Mark McGuire took creatine, because the guy is muscular, everyone else wants to take creatine........When Michael Jordan uses Nike and he claimed that the shoe helped him jump high, AND BECAUSE HE JUMPS HIGH, that evidence made many people who wants to jump high buy Nike.....But of course this is just an analogy and we both know that they are PAID $$$ to say this, and it can be a lie FOR $$$ IS A GOOD REASON TO LIE....

This is the same thing as the apostles, while you believe that they are liars, I believe they are genuine....
I see no gain for the apostles to lie, they were stoned, mocked, persecuted, and at the end tortured to death, thats the opposite of what a person would do when lying. Now of course if the apostles got $$$ millions of cash and gold, women, good attention, etc...Then I see a possibility of them as a liar....And in addition to that, THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS (MAYBE MILLIONS) FOLLOWED THEIR EXAMPLES AND WERE MARTYRED AS WELL FOR THEIR FAITH (Want 2 bring out suicidal bombing if that is considered martyrdom?).....

Quote:

Originally posted by pgwenthold


1) I really know very little about what either of them have said, (Didn't Sagan say "Billions and billions..."?) so it is silly to claim that I have been brainwashed by them. Strawman down the tubes.

2) God who?

Who is God(s), which God? Read below and educate yourself a little bit amateur....


http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showt...threadid=13530

Quote:

Originally posted by Dark Cobra


No, you have no justification for thinking something exists without ANY evidence to show it.

Otherwise, you are just playing make belief. Sure, it may be right, but no evidence for a claim such as God is as far as we can go to show it doesn't exist-- which DOES NOT weaken the atheist position.

I have an evidence of God.. But this is not the post for it.. This thred is started to DEBUNK ALL of Richard's arguments, or Sagans..

MY MISSION IS TO DEBUNK ALL OF ATHEISTS ARGUMENT (So far, almost all youur arguments are flawed already, LOL) AFTER THEN, ILL POST THE EVIDENCE OF GOD....ILL HAVE TO FIRST DESTROY EVERY SILLY ARGUMENTS YOU HAVE FIRST BEFORE I START THAT THREAD.......

[Filippo Lippi]

I'm getting deja vu

[Supercharts]

Quote:

Originally posted by muscleman
But why do atheists even use the word "SIX BREASTED DOMINATRIX FROM JUPITER" ...

We don't need the "Six Breasted Dominatrix from Jupiter" - we have the "Succubus from Coon Rapids". [Please pay attention...thanks ]

[Dub]

Quote:

Originally posted by muscleman


I have an evidence of God.. But this is not the post for it.. This thred is started to DEBUNK ALL of Richard's arguments, or Sagans..

MY MISSION IS TO DEBUNK ALL OF ATHEISTS ARGUMENT (So far, almost all youur arguments are flawed already, LOL) AFTER THEN, ILL POST THE EVIDENCE OF GOD....ILL HAVE TO FIRST DESTROY EVERY SILLY ARGUMENTS YOU HAVE FIRST BEFORE I START THAT THREAD.......

You have evidence of the existence of God but you wont post it...Sure you do. I have the instructions on how to build a perpetual motion machine, but im not going to post it.

Muscleman, you are an atheist. You just believe in one more God than me. If you can explain why you dont believe in everyother God man has invented youll see why I dont believe in yours.

Is there something that makes people who believe in God have to use caps lock all the time?

[Filippo Lippi]

Muscleman has debunked nothing, yet he's already high-fiving himself and running a lap of honour round his PC.

[Underemployed]

Dear Muscleman,

OK, you've convinced me! Definitely a God exists...

But which God? A Christian God? A benevolent God?

You argue passionately for His existence. You offer testimonials, martyrs, churches as part of your proof. Great! But what makes you think your God is the one that exists, and not Thor, Krishna, Cthulhu? Why are they all wrong and you are right?

You say He is Spirit. You say He is the God of the Christian Bible, which includes all testament-based religions. Go to India and Pakistan and see how many 'churches' and martyrs there are for Vishnu, Ganesh and Rama. Read up on the temples and sacrifices to Quetzalcoatl. Any religion with a few followers behind it can also claim buildings and people who died ofr their beliefs. I say again, why are they all wrong and you are right?

If there is a God, what makes you think He is kind and loving? Maybe He is what we would term 'evil' and is just biding His time before destroying us all for no apparent reason. Oh wait - that is exactly what the Bible says anyway! (See Revelations)

All of your arguments are made of assumptions about things we don't know. Science (and atheism) is made up of assumptions about things we do know. I will take knowledge over ignorance any day. These are Dawkins and Sagans' positions on religion and also mine.

[justsaygnosis]

Maybe skydaddy and the goddess will make whoopy and we'll have a new deity to deal with.
And we all live happily ever after.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Are we getting close to recipe time yet???

[pgwenthold]

Quote:

Originally posted by muscleman


Who is God(s), which God? Read below and educate yourself a little bit amateur....


http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showt...threadid=13530

OK, I looked at the thread. If you are calling a cow or someone's girlfriend "God," then I agree that this God exists. However, when you got to the "God of Abraham" you lost it.

First of all, what is your evidence that the "God of Abraham" actually exists? Because people worship it? Sorry, that's not sufficient. But even after that, you still have problems.

"How is the God of Abraham the real God? ...Because His ways are the right way to live, proper way of living, civilized manner,"

This claim is easily contradicted by any reasonable conception of "right way to live."

The God of Abraham is the one who says, according to 1 Sam 15:2 - 3

"2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

This God of Abraham orders the Israelites to smite Amalek, because they had gotten in the way of their Exodus from Egypt 400 years before. Not only that, but because the Great^20 grandfathers of the Amalekites had gotten in the way of the Israelites back then, the God of Abraham orders the Israelites to kill their men, women, infants, sucklings, ox, sheep, camels, and asses! Is killing babies the civilized way to conduct war (aside from the fact that the war is justified on the basis of the activities of their long, long, long dead ancestors).

Clearly it is not. Hence, your claim that the "God of Abraham" is the real God because his ways are the right ways to live must be false.

Quote:

Originally posted by muscleman


Who is God(s), which God? Read below and educate yourself a little bit amateur....


http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showt...threadid=13530

Still no definition of god.

Funny thing, he never answers any of my questions, reasonable as they are.

I guess he's looking for somebody who's operating far beneath his level; somewhere between second and third grade in primary school, possibly.

Same sort of goes for Franko, Wraith, et al. It's sort of an intended insult when they pay attention to you, and respect when they ignore you. "I fear where he'll take it if I give a straight answer, so I'll pretend I didn't notice the question."


But here, to stay on topic, I'll even give my opinion about why Richard Dawkins and Carl Sagan are popular with atheists. They're unapologetic in their approach.

There is no reason to give an obnoxious theist the "benefit of the doubt", especially not for those who are prone to use their minute at the podium to foment hatred and bigotry in the name of ignorance.

I reached the conclusions (re: religion) that Sagan and Dawkins, and many before them reached independently of their input. Obviously it's not "brainwashing" if anybody can come up with the answer for themselves. It's more like "truth", but not precisely. Anybody can derive any "truths" they like, given improperly selected inputs. "Truth" is a loaded term. We have religious "truth", which is a bunch of ipse dixit nonsense which is both "eternal" and changed regularly. Then we have scientific truths that can be tested/verified/debunked by anyone. Finally, we have the "truth" that's stuck on the end of this topic title, as a hook, attached to a long line of something or other.

Unlike religions, there has seldom been people out there that are trivially accessible to the general public to speak out loudly and clearly against religion. It's just nice to see people who are more eloquent than I express the same ideas. And it's awfully nice to have so many atheistic resources to draw on from the Internet that can't be automatically supressed by book burning theists "checking them out" from the library and disposing of them to "protect me".


Quick Burritos:
Lean two tortillas together on a paper plate. Scoop chili from the can, and add some shredded cheese. Nuke for less than a minute, or until cheese melts. Add any veggies, wrap, serve.

Quote:

Originally posted by cavin
whodini needs to make some friends....
come on a nice girl to take to Portland for the weekend.
relax, aren't classes enought to fill up your time?

Uh, ok.

Interesting- I'm not even the subject of this thread, yet you are fascinated by me.

----
How many died for tooth fairy to verify its value?
----


Death for something doesn't mean that something is valuable.


----
I see no gain for the apostles to lie,
----


Money and influence?

Or, maybe they weren't lieing, but they were just mistaken.

Or maybe they told the truth, but in the intervening centuries between the apostles giving their accounts, and a lot of "playing telephone" with the stories across the generations, through various splinters of Christianity, which eventually found their way into a "Standard Bible", a few "little details" got munged. And then you get those zany Protestants who immediately cut a bunch of "Sacred Truth" out of the book, and later cut some of the racy "Sacred Truth" out, then put some back in....

[Supercharts]

I wouldn't know what to do with the Tooth Fairy but if I was confronted with a Turkey:

1. TO REMOVE LEG (thigh or second joint and drumstick). Hold the drumstick firmly with fingers, pulling gently away from turkey body. At the same time cut through skin between leg and body.

[Megalodon]

Quote:

Originally posted by Supercharts
I wouldn't know what to do with the Tooth Fairy but if I was confronted with a Turkey:

1. TO REMOVE LEG (thigh or second joint and drumstick). Hold the drumstick firmly with fingers, pulling gently away from turkey body. At the same time cut through skin between leg and body.

Same thing with the toothfairy, just less feathers to deal with

For tasty pizza bread:

Very lightly toast two slices of wheat bread

spread a generous helping of pasta sauce on one half, and cut up chedder cheese for the other half.

Sprinkle with parmesan and some olives, then microwave for 30 seconds, or until the cheese is melted.

Quote:

Originally posted by Underemployed
Dear Muscleman,

OK, you've convinced me! Definitely a God exists...

But which God? A Christian God? A benevolent God?

You argue passionately for His existence. You offer testimonials, martyrs, churches as part of your proof. Great! But what makes you think your God is the one that exists, and not Thor, Krishna, Cthulhu? Why are they all wrong and you are right?

You say He is Spirit. You say He is the God of the Christian Bible, which includes all testament-based religions. Go to India and Pakistan and see how many 'churches' and martyrs there are for Vishnu, Ganesh and Rama. Read up on the temples and sacrifices to Quetzalcoatl. Any religion with a few followers behind it can also claim buildings and people who died ofr their beliefs. I say again, why are they all wrong and you are right?

If there is a God, what makes you think He is kind and loving? Maybe He is what we would term 'evil' and is just biding His time before destroying us all for no apparent reason. Oh wait - that is exactly what the Bible says anyway! (See Revelations)

All of your arguments are made of assumptions about things we don't know. Science (and atheism) is made up of assumptions about things we do know. I will take knowledge over ignorance any day. These are Dawkins and Sagans' positions on religion and also mine.

Who is God? Which God? Which religion? Which church? Read the post below and edcuate yurself, IF YOUR REALLY INTERESTED THAT IS.....If yur still unsatisfied, u can come back here and ask me some more......


http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showt...threadid=13530

Quote:

Originally posted by pgwenthold


OK, I looked at the thread. If you are calling a cow or someone's girlfriend "God," then I agree that this God exists. However, when you got to the "God of Abraham" you lost it.

First of all, what is your evidence that the "God of Abraham" actually exists? Because people worship it? Sorry, that's not sufficient. But even after that, you still have problems.

"How is the God of Abraham the real God? ...Because His ways are the right way to live, proper way of living, civilized manner,"

This claim is easily contradicted by any reasonable conception of "right way to live."

The God of Abraham is the one who says, according to 1 Sam 15:2 - 3

"2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

This God of Abraham orders the Israelites to smite Amalek, because they had gotten in the way of their Exodus from Egypt 400 years before. Not only that, but because the Great^20 grandfathers of the Amalekites had gotten in the way of the Israelites back then, the God of Abraham orders the Israelites to kill their men, women, infants, sucklings, ox, sheep, camels, and asses! Is killing babies the civilized way to conduct war (aside from the fact that the war is justified on the basis of the activities of their long, long, long dead ancestors).

Clearly it is not. Hence, your claim that the "God of Abraham" is the real God because his ways are the right ways to live must be false.

Your taking things out of context. Maybe the God in the old testament seemed cruel, but that is not all there is ot it, he is also forgiving to those who seek forgiveness.

Now about slaughtering ox, sheep, cows (their dearest possesion in their heart..) God wished that it will b destroyed because it takes away the worship that is due to him...

For at the time, the most precious possesion they have are goats, cows, etc. in which they make songs dedicated to it, worship it, and treasure it (the same way we do to some materials today..). God is a jealous God bcuz he loves us dearly..


Now about slaughtering children..

It is best for those children to be slaughtered (for their soul will be safer.) than for them to be starving to death...For surely the jews will not take care of them for they themselves are under attack and outnumbered. Abraham's own people are full of sins and greed, that I really doubt that out of their free-will they will raise the philistine children JUSTLY and EQUALLY when they themselves are being treated like slaves. Maybe God just dont wish that the kids wont grow up as slaves........

Now thats my opinion... However, it is important to observe the situation instead of taking things out of context. Just learn that the Kingdom of God can be likened to a mustard seed, it starts out really small but when matures, it is so huge that birds of the air dwells at it with their nest... The church then may have been ignorant about God (as kids doesnt know much about their parents at age 4) but the church overtime learns...

[Occasional Chemist]

Quote:

Originally posted by muscleman
I made this post, because I realized alot of the atheists are brainwashed by the 2 above. I say "brainwashed" because they dont have the intellect to see their flawed arguments, because of that, they become an atheist...

I certainly can't speak for all atheists, but I think you'll find that most of us " became" atheists long before we had any contacts with the works of either Sagan or Dawkins.

In my case, for example, I've never read anything by Dawkins and my atheism predated my first exposure to any of Sagan's writings by twenty years (or more).

I find Sagan more interesting for his views on science than on religion.

edited to correct a typo

[c4ts]

Quote:

Originally posted by muscleman
I made this post, because I realized alot of the atheists are brainwashed by the 2 above. I say "brainwashed" because they dont have the intellect to see their flawed arguments, because of that, they become an atheist...

I post this to type what is the best argument you got from this guys to discredit the existence of God.. Post them whatever it is..So I can point to you the problem with it which you guys FAILED to see......

I'm sure you have plenty of preconstructed arguments to spew at us... so let me ask you this:

What do advertisements, politicians, and religious arguments have in common?

[Tricky]

Quote:

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist
I certainly can't speak for all athiests, but I think you'll find that most of us " became" atheists long before we had any contacts with the works of either Sagan or Dawkins.

In my case, for example, I've never read anything by Dawkins and my atheism predated my first exposure to any of Sagan's writings by twenty years (or more).

I agree with Occasional Chemist and I too was an atheist long before exposure to these scientists. The book that had the most influence on me becoming an atheist was The Bible.