Ye Bush lovin' bastids.

[pagan]

I thought it might be time to make my first thread. Hope you don't get too insulted by my title.

What I find strange is that most of you guys seem critical of Bush except when it comes to everything related to 911.

There some strange mystery happens. You happily bend down and take it in the ( well, let's not get too expilicit)

Critical of the Iraqi war? Or the Bush adm "war against terrorism"? Or the war against the Muslims to steal their oil?

Well, why not join the 911 truth movement. Because we will stop the Bush adm if the 911 hoax get exposed.

Wanna stop the war against IRAN? The US is ready to attack within weeks. Join us honorable and brave 911 truthers!!!

You cannot be a pussy. You have to be truly brave. And when a mainsteam coward calls you a tin foil hatter it just boost your pride.

[Anti-sophist]

Pretending that because Bush is a bad president, therefore he did 9/11 is just absurd beyond absurd. Believing in a delusion and ignoring reality is not justified because you don't like the man. Most of us here are loyal, primarily, to the truth. There are plenty of true reasons to believe Bush is a bad president, we don't need to make up additional ones.

[Pardalis]

Pagan, do you actually expect that your present childish attitude will accomplish anything?

[Totovader]

Move to politics?

[Unsecured Coins]

*smartass comment*

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by pagan

I thought it might be time to make my first thread. Hope you not get too insulted by my title.

What I find strange is that most of you guys seem critical of Bush except when it comes to everything related to 911.

There some strange mystery happens. You happily bend down and take it in the ( well, let's not get too expilicit)

Critical of the Iraqi war? Or the Bush adm "war against terrorism"? Or the war against the Muslims to steal their oil?

Well, why not join the 911 truth movement. Because we will stop the Bush adm if the 911 hoax get exposed.

Wanna stop the war against IRAN? The US is ready to attack within weeks. Join us honorable and brave 911 truthers!!!

You cannot be a pussy. You have to be truly brave. And when a mainsteam coward calls you a tin foil hatter it just boost your pride.

Pres Bush will be stopped in January of 2009 by being replaced, and long before any intellectually challenged fools like "twoofers" muster sufficient support to do anything about his term in office.

I have my complaints about the Bush administration, but I am also intelligent enough not to shoot myself in the foot by arguing against his policies from the position of a complete idiot.

Why won't you join me, pagan, in a critique of Pres Bush and his team from the basis of knowledge, rather than from your fantasies?

DR

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by pagan

Well, why not join the 911 truth movement. Because we will stop the Bush adm if the 911 hoax get exposed.

And just how are you going to do that? Impeachment? Revolution? Harsh language? You better hurry up, you have less than two years.

[Unsecured Coins]

Bush sent me to Iraq!! Oh noes!!

(i wanna go back. seriously)

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by pagan

You cannot be a pussy.

I'm a 42 year-old woman. Do you think comments like this would in anyway make more me amenable to your argument?

[jsfisher]

Originally Posted by Unsecured Coins

Bush sent me to Iraq!! Oh noes!!

(i wanna go back. seriously)

Unsecured Coins,

If you did, in fact, serve in the US Armed Forces (whether or not in Iraq), you have my sincere thanks.

[PerryLogan]

I plead innocent. My central argument against the "inside job" theory is that Bush and his crew are simply too incompetent to bring off 9/11. If they had planned 9/11, 9/11 would never have happened.

P.S.: Calling people "pussies" is not the classiest approach. Just a thought.

[Unsecured Coins]

big word alert!

hey pagan, are you recruiting for the Marines or for a truth movement?

[Unsecured Coins]

Originally Posted by jsfisher

Unsecured Coins,

If you did, in fact, serve in the US Armed Forces (whether or not in Iraq), you have my sincere thanks.

the pleasure is all mine. Thank YOU

[pagan]

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

I'm a 42 year-old woman. Do you think comments like this would in anyway make more me amenable to your argument?

Yes, absolutly. I mean you are not a pussy? You are a woman?

Like, I am not a dick. I am a man.

[Brainster]

Originally Posted by pagan

I thought it might be time to make my first thread. Hope you don't get too insulted by my title.

What I find strange is that most of you guys seem critical of Bush except when it comes to everything related to 911.

Not I. I seldom criticize Bush. Where I certainly agree with liberal JREFers is that Bush should be criticized for things he actually did, not for things he didn't.

[Unsecured Coins]

Originally Posted by pagan

Like, I am not a dick. I am a man.

OBJECTION - the witness is speculating

[DavidJames]

Originally Posted by PerryLogan

I plead innocent. My central argument against the "inside job" theory is that Bush and his crew are simply too incompetent to bring off 9/11. If they had planned 9/11, 9/11 would never have happened.

P.S.: Calling people "pussies" is not the classiest approach. Just a thought.

Ditto Perry's comment.

pagan - Based on your post and post history, I'm guessing you are in high school? How'd I do?

[pagan]

The thread has been moved.

Well, let's not get too excited. I'm not that surprised.

To be exposed as Bush lovers isn't too nice these days.

[gumboot]

There's really not a lot to be critical of the Bush Administration regarding 9/11. We often hear the CTers yapping about how Bush admin lies omfg !!!111!!!ONE!! etc...

Yet the facts we are debating and discussing re: 9/11 very rarely come from the Bush Administration at all.

NIST - not bush admin
FEMA - not bush admin
FDNY - not bush admin
NYPD - not bush admin
NORAD - not bush admin
FBI - not bush admin
AA - not bush admin
UA - not bush admin
FAA - not bush admin

You get the idea...

In fact, speaking personally, the Bush Administration is the one aspect of 9/11 where I feel there has been a LACK of ANY information, accurate or otherwise. For example, I REALLY want to know why Bush stayed in the school for so long, and who made that decision, and why.

The ONLY real CT argument that revolves around Bush admin lies is the Norman Mineta testimony and the entire Cheney timeline thing. And that little argument is easily refuted by plenty of non-admin sources.

-Gumboot

[ConspiRaider]

pagan - WHY did the JREF forum make you one of my Profile Neighbors? Could you take that 1970 Plymouth Belvedere down off the blocks and get it out of your front yard? And cut your lawn. And throw some paint on your house. And get those empty Rice-a-Roni boxes off my tree lawn.

[maccy]

Because those issues can be fought on their own.

Bush wasn't behind 9/11 - you aren't going to stop him doing anything by trying to prove that he was.

The "Truth Movement" is ridiculous and actually plays into Bush's hands if people who are opposed to him waste their time with it. If the more general opposition to Bush is associated with the "Truth Movement" it exposes it to ridicule. Why do think Fox News is so keen to give airtime to Truthers? Do you really believe that they think these people damage Bush?

US citizens have already clipped Bush's wings by handing the House and the Senate to the Democrats. If they want to continue to fight Bush on the issues, they can get involved with Peace Movement, the ACLU, Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, MoveOn and many other organisations. They can campaign for the Democrats in the next election* - or they can try and move the Republican party away from the Neo-Con agenda in the primaries. The least effective thing they can do is join the "Truth Movement".

Those of us outside the US can do their best to isolate the US on foreign policy and steer our governments away from supporting further military adventures.

What has your movement achieve in the last five years? What do you seriously expect to achieve in the next five years?

All that Truthers seem to be interested in is shouting the odds and exaggerating the the power of the US Government. I think you want to feel persecuted and powerless.

The "Truth Movement" has done nothing to hurt Bush. If anything, you've strengthened his position.

I'm sure you've already dismissed these articles, but they bear repeating:

http://www.counterpunch.org/jw11282006.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn11282006.html
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2007...short-changed/
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2007...g-a-scarecrow/

*by which I mean they can (hopefully) campaign for a Democrat President who won't continue Bush's policies - I don't think he's going to change the constitution between now and November 2008.

[pagan]

Originally Posted by ConspiRaider

pagan - WHY did the JREF forum make you one of my Profile Neighbors? Could you take that 1970 Plymouth Belvedere down off the blocks and get it out of your front yard? And cut your lawn. And throw some paint on your house. And get those empty Rice-a-Roni boxes off my tree lawn.

I've read your post twice. Still don't get it.

WTF, are u going on about? Neighbour, plymouth, lawn, rice-a roni???

I think we must have a cultural gap here. I am aristo intelligent Euro. This is some internal Yank mumbo-jumbo?

[Dr Adequate]

Why is it that Truthers are happy enough to blame Bush for 9/11, but they all keep quiet about his killer squads of winged monkeys roaming the streets?

Are they in league with the monkeys?

[Pardalis]

Originally Posted by pagan

The thread has been moved.

Well, let's not get too excited. I'm not that surprised.

To be exposed as Bush lovers isn't too nice these days.

Pagan, would you like to adress these fine intelligent posts please?:

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Why won't you join me, pagan, in a critique of Pres Bush and his team from the basis of knowledge, rather than from your fantasies?

DR

Originally Posted by PerryLogan

I plead innocent. My central argument against the "inside job" theory is that Bush and his crew are simply too incompetent to bring off 9/11. If they had planned 9/11, 9/11 would never have happened.

Originally Posted by Brainster

Not I. I seldom criticize Bush. Where I certainly agree with liberal JREFers is that Bush should be criticized for things he actually did, not for things he didn't.

Originally Posted by gumboot

There's really not a lot to be critical of the Bush Administration regarding 9/11. We often hear the CTers yapping about how Bush admin lies omfg !!!111!!!ONE!! etc...

Yet the facts we are debating and discussing re: 9/11 very rarely come from the Bush Administration at all.

NIST - not bush admin
FEMA - not bush admin
FDNY - not bush admin
NYPD - not bush admin
NORAD - not bush admin
FBI - not bush admin
AA - not bush admin
UA - not bush admin
FAA - not bush admin

You get the idea...

In fact, speaking personally, the Bush Administration is the one aspect of 9/11 where I feel there has been a LACK of ANY information, accurate or otherwise. For example, I REALLY want to know why Bush stayed in the school for so long, and who made that decision, and why.

The ONLY real CT argument that revolves around Bush admin lies is the Norman Mineta testimony and the entire Cheney timeline thing. And that little argument is easily refuted by plenty of non-admin sources.

-Gumboot

Originally Posted by maccy

Because those issues can be fought on their own.

Bush wasn't behind 9/11 - you aren't going to stop him doing anything by trying to prove that he was.

The "Truth Movement" is ridiculous and actually plays into Bush's hands if people who are opposed to him waste their time with it. If the more general opposition to Bush is associated with the "Truth Movement" it exposes it to ridicule. Why do think Fox News is so keen to give airtime to Truthers? Do you really believe that they think these people damage Bush?

US citizens have already clipped Bush's wings by handing the House and the Senate to the Democrats. If they want to continue to fight Bush on the issues, they can get involved with Peace Movement, the ACLU, Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, MoveOn and many other organisations. They can campaign for the Democrats in the next election - or they can try and move the Republican party away from the Neo-Con agenda in the primaries. The least effective thing they can do is join the "Truth Movement".

Those of us outside the US can do their best to isolate the US on foreign policy and steer our governments away from supporting further military adventures.

What has your movement achieve in the last five years? What do you seriously expect to achieve in the next five years?

All that Truthers seem to be interested in is shouting the odds and exaggerating the the power of the US Government. I think you want to feel persecuted and powerless.

The "Truth Movement" has done nothing to help Bush. If anything, you've strengthened his position.

I'm sure you've already dismissed these articles, but they bear repeating:

http://www.counterpunch.org/jw11282006.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn11282006.html
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2007...short-changed/
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2007...g-a-scarecrow/

People here actually care and took the time to respond to your inane thread.

[CHF]

Pagan ,

any luck with that PNAC quote?

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by pagan

Like, I am not a dick. I am a man.

OBJECTION - the witness is speculating

Originally Posted by Unsecured Coins

OBJECTION - the witness is speculating

No, he is lying on both counts. He is not a man, but a pitiful little boy.

By the way, a hearty "Hooah"to you, UC.

If you go back over again, by God you keep your head on a swivel! We need you breathing, eh?

DR

[Pardalis]

Gone already?

He starts a thread and then leaves when faced with an actual discussion with intelligent responses.

How surprising.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

Why is it that Truthers are happy enough to blame Bush for 9/11, but they all keep quiet about his killer squads of winged monkeys roaming the streets?

Are they in league with the monkeys?

The monkeys generally don't like to hang with intellectual inferiors, so you can have confidence that pagan and his friends live a monkeyless life. They are most often found in the company of other jacka$$es.

DR

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by pagan

You cannot be a pussy.

[Azure]

My word.

What has become of the youth these days?

[A W Smith]

This thread is Proof that pagans conspiracy beliefs are agenda driven.

[maccy]

Pagan has spoken of David Irving as a "hero" in the past. I think it's fair to say that he's not that big on reality or evidence. He seems to have a superiority complex about being European and apparently chooses to show his greatness by making smug insulting posts and then running away.

He repeats himself as well - this "you all love Bush" gambit has been tried several times now. He just ignores the replies.

For anybody that thinks he's a teenager, his profile claims that he's 47.

[Zep]

Years or months?

[pomeroo]

Quote:

[=pagan;2380983]Yes, absolutly. I mean you are not a pussy? You are a woman?

Like, I am not a dick. I am a man.

Comment? Moi? "It's like slapping a sick baby off a chamber pot."

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Originally Posted by pagan

Well, why not join the 911 truth movement. Because we will stop the Bush adm if the 911 hoax get exposed.

I don't get this. It's pretty well known that the Bush administration over-played, at the very least, the intelligence regarding WMDs in Iraq. We all know about the NSA wiretaps. The numerous pieces of legislation and the disturbing number of Executive Orders are out there for all to see. The information the U.S. has fed the IAEA over the past two years about Iran's weapons programs has apparently all been wrong.

...but none of you "truthers" act on any of it. You act like exposing 9/11 as an inside job will make all the bad things "Bush" did (and is in the process of doing) magically disappear amidst a burst of rainbows and butterflies.

There are real, actionable grievances against the Bush administration that are already known. Why do you insist on chasing shadows while letting more "bad things" pile up?

Frankly, you're the [feline] here.

[a_unique_person]

It's all about the evidence. The evidence that 9/11 was a conspiracy just doesn't stand up. The evidence that Iraq was a monumental screw up is pretty clear.

[T.A.M.]

So Pagan, being an Anti-BUSH guy, what do you think of the fact that up until 9 months before 9/11, It was 8 years of the Democratic Clintons that delt with and/or ignored warnings re: OBL/Al-Qaeda.

I mean technically, all the gliches and ignoring of signals could be pinned on them, could it not?

TAM

[Zep]

Yeah! They should throw Clinton out of the Oval Office too!

[PerryLogan]

Originally Posted by T.A.M.

It was 8 years of the Democratic Clintons that delt with and/or ignored warnings re: OBL/Al-Qaeda. I mean technically, all the gliches and ignoring of signals could be pinned on them, could it not?

Not at all:

PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON developed the nation's first anti-terrorism policy, and appointed first national coordinator of anti-terrorist efforts.
Bill Clinton stopped cold the Al Qaeda millennium hijacking and bombing plots.
Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to kill the Pope.
Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up 12 U.S. jetliners simultaneously.
Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up UN Headquarters.
Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up FBI Headquarters.
Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up the Israeli Embassy in Washington.
Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up Boston airport.
Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up Lincoln and Holland Tunnels in NY.
Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up the George Washington Bridge.
Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up the US Embassy in Albania.
Bill Clinton tried to kill Osama bin Laden and disrupt Al Qaeda through preemptive strikes (efforts denounced by the G.O.P.).
Bill Clinton brought perpetrators of first World Trade Center bombing and CIA killings to justice.
Bill Clinton did not blame the Bush I administration for first World Trade Center bombing even though it occurred 38 days after Bush left office. Instead, worked hard, even obsessively -- and successfully -- to stop future terrorist attacks.
Bill Clinton named the Hart-Rudman commission to report on nature of terrorist threats and major steps to be taken to combat terrorism.
Bill Clinton sent legislation to Congress to tighten airport security. (Remember, this is before 911) The legislation was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the airlines.
Bill Clinton sent legislation to Congress to allow for better tracking of terrorist funding. It was defeated by Republicans in the Senate because of opposition from banking interests.
Bill Clinton sent legislation to Congress to add tagents to explosives, to allow for better tracking of explosives used by terrorists. It was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the NRA.
Bill Clinton increased the military budget by an average of 14 per cent, reversing the trend under Bush I.
Bill Clinton tripled the budget of the FBI for counterterrorism and doubled overall funding for counterterrorism.
Bill Clinton detected and destroyed cells of Al Qaeda in over 20 countries.
Bill Clinton created national stockpile of drugs and vaccines including 40 million doses of smallpox vaccine.
Of Clinton's efforts says Robert Oakley, Reagan Ambassador for Counterterrorism: "Overall, I give them very high marks" and "The only major criticism I have is the obsession with Osama".
Paul Bremer, current Civilian Administrator of Iraq disagrees slightly with Robert Oakley as he believed the Bill Clinton Administration had "correctly focused on bin Laden.
Barton Gellman in the Washington Post put it best, "By any measure available, Bill Clinton left office having given greater priority to terrorism than any president before him" and was the "first administration to undertake a systematic anti-terrorist effort."

Starting in 1995, Clinton took actions against terrorism that were unprecedented in American history. He poured billions and billions of dollars into counterterrorism activities across the entire spectrum of the intelligence community. He poured billions more into the protection of critical infrastructure. He ordered massive federal stockpiling of antidotes and vaccines to prepare for a possible bioterror attack. He order a reorganization of the intelligence community itself, ramming through reforms and new procedures to address the demonstrable threat. Within the National Security Council, "threat meetings" were held three times a week to assess looming conspiracies. His National Security Advisor, Sandy Berger, prepared a voluminous dossier on al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden, actively tracking them across the planet. Clinton raised the issue of terrorism in virtually every important speech he gave in the last three years of his tenure. In 1996, Clinton delivered a major address to the United Nations on the matter of international terrorism, calling it "The enemy of our generation."

Behind the scenes, he leaned vigorously on the leaders of nations within the terrorist sphere. In particular, he pushed Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif to assist him in dealing with the threat from neighboring Afghanistan and its favorite guest, Osama bin Laden. Before Sharif could be compelled to act, he was thrown out of office by his own army. His replacement, Pervez Musharraf, pointedly refused to do anything to assist Clinton in dealing with these threats. Despite these and other diplomatic setbacks, terrorist cell after terrorist cell were destroyed across the world, and bomb plots against American embassies were thwarted. Because of security concerns, these victories were never revealed to the American people until very recently.
In America, few people heard anything about this. Clinton's dire public warnings about the threat posed by terrorism, and the massive non-secret actions taken to thwart it, went completely unreported by the media, which was far more concerned with stained dresses and baseless Drudge Report rumors. When the administration did act militarily against bin Laden and his terrorist network, the actions were dismissed by partisans within the media and Congress as scandalous "wag the dog" tactics. The TV networks actually broadcast clips of the movie "Wag The Dog" to accentuate the idea that everything the administration was doing was contrived fakery.
The bombing of the Sundanese factory at al-Shifa, in particular, drew wide condemnation from these quarters, despite the fact that the CIA found and certified VX nerve agent precursor in the ground outside the factory, despite the fact that the factory was owned by Osama bin Laden's Military Industrial Corporation, and despite the fact that the manager of the factory lived in bin Laden's villa in Khartoum. The book "Age of Sacred Terror" quantifies the al-Shifa issue thusly: "The dismissal of the al-Shifa attack as a scandalous blunder had serious consequences, including the failure of the public to comprehend the nature of the al Qaeda threat."
In Congress, Clinton was thwarted by the reactionary conservative majority in virtually every attempt he made to pass legislation that would attack al Qaeda and terrorism. His 1996 omnibus terror bill, which included many of the anti-terror measures we now take for granted after September 11, was withered almost to the point of uselessness by attacks from the right; Jesse Helms and Trent Lott were openly dismissive of the threats Clinton spoke of.
Clinton wanted to attack the financial underpinnings of the al-Qaeda network by banning American companies and individuals from dealing with foreign banks and financial institutions that al Qaeda was using for its money-laundering operations. Texas Senator Phil Gramm, chairman of the Banking Committee, killed Clinton's bill on this matter and called it "totalitarian." In fact, he was compelled to kill the bill because his most devoted patrons, the Enron Corporation and its criminal executives in Houston, were using those same terrorist financial networks to launder their own dirty money and rip off the Enron stockholders.
Just before departing office, Clinton managed to make a deal with the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development to have some twenty nations close tax havens used by al Qaeda. His term ended before the deal was sealed, and the incoming Bush administration acted immediately to destroy the agreement. According to Time magazine, in an article entitled "Banking on Secrecy" published in October of 2001, Bush economic advisors Larry Lindsey and R. Glenn Hubbard were urged by think tanks like the Center for Freedom and Prosperity to opt out of the coalition Clinton had formed. The conservative Heritage Foundation lobbied Bush's Treasury Secretary, Paul O'Neill, to do the same. In the end, the lobbyists got what they wanted, and the Bush administration pulled America out of the plan. The Time article stated, "Without the world's financial superpower, the biggest effort in years to rid the world's financial system of dirty money was short-circuited."
This laundry list of partisan catastrophes goes on and on. Far from being inept on the matter of terrorism, Clinton was profoundly activist in his attempts to address terrorism. Much of his work was foiled by right-wing Congressional conservatives who, simply, refused to accept the fact that he was President. These men, paid to work for the public trust, spent eight years working diligently to paralyze any and all Clinton policies, including anti-terror initiatives that, if enacted, would have gone a long way towards thwarting the September 11 attacks. Beyond them lay the worthless television media, which ignored and spun the terrorist issue as it pursued salacious leaks from Ken Starr's office, leaving the American people drowning in a swamp of ignorance on a matter of deadly global importance.
Over and above the theoretical questions regarding whether or not Clinton's anti-terror policies, if passed, would have stopped September 11 lies the very real fact that attacks very much like 9/11 were, in fact, stopped dead by the Clinton administration. The most glaring example of this came on December 31, 1999, when the world gathered to celebrate the passing of the millennium. On that night, al Qaeda was gathering as well.
The terrorist network planned to simultaneously attack the national airports in Washington DC and Los Angeles, the Amman Raddison Hotel in Jordan, a constellation of holy sites in Israel, and the USS The Sullivans at dock in Yemen. Each and every single one of these plots, which ranged from one side of the planet to the other, was foiled by the efforts of the Clinton administration. http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/101303A.shtml

[Azure]

Latest greatest from the conspiracy theorists? It wasn't Bush who carried out 9/11, but Clinton.

You heard it here first.