Bottled water warning

Baron Samedi · 8th March 2007, 02:41 PM

I just read about bottled water from Armenia being labeled dangerous by the FDA. Here's a link to the story:

http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/200...r-arsenic.html

What I find amusing is this part here:

Quote:

The Jermuk brands, which were distributed across the United States and have been recalled, include:

Jermuk Original Sparkling Natural Mineral Water Fortified With Natural Gas From The Spring, imported by Zetlian Bakery Inc. of Pico Rivera, Calif.

Mmmm.... nothing says goodness like "fortified with natural gas".

Dustin Kesselberg · 8th March 2007, 08:29 PM

That'll put hair on your back..

Slimething · 8th March 2007, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by Baron Samedi

Mmmm.... nothing says goodness like "fortified with natural gas".

Is that like Derrier Water?

kittynh · 8th March 2007, 09:20 PM

I still like the Sprite commercials that show the bear peeing in the natural spring.

Dustin Kesselberg · 8th March 2007, 10:14 PM

There's a famous saying..

Beer has strength,

Wine has thought,

Water has...bacteria.

MortFurd · 9th March 2007, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by Baron Samedi

I just read about bottled water from Armenia being labeled dangerous by the FDA. Here's a link to the story:

http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/200...r-arsenic.html

What I find amusing is this part here:

Mmmm.... nothing says goodness like "fortified with natural gas".

"Natural gas" in this case is most likely a crummy translation. What the original (the text on the bottles sold in Armenia) probably meant was "Fortified with the naturally occuring carbon dioxide gas from the spring."

In German, "Natural gas" is "Erdgas" which means "gas from the earth." I'm probably going to bungle this, but "natural gas" would translate literally as "Natuerliches Gas." "Gas" being in German any kind of matter in the form of a gas. When referring to bottled water, "Gas" always means "carbon dioxide gas."

I know Germany is not Armenia. I'm just using German to illustrate the difficulties of translating not just the words, but the cultural content that surrounds the use of those words.

So, yeah, the text sounds funny but I wouldn't expect the water to be full of flammable natural gas.

Dustin Kesselberg · 9th March 2007, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by MortFurd

"Natural gas" in this case is most likely a crummy translation. What the original (the text on the bottles sold in Armenia) probably meant was "Fortified with the naturally occuring carbon dioxide gas from the spring."

In German, "Natural gas" is "Erdgas" which means "gas from the earth." I'm probably going to bungle this, but "natural gas" would translate literally as "Natuerliches Gas." "Gas" being in German any kind of matter in the form of a gas. When referring to bottled water, "Gas" always means "carbon dioxide gas."

I know Germany is not Armenia. I'm just using German to illustrate the difficulties of translating not just the words, but the cultural content that surrounds the use of those words.

So, yeah, the text sounds funny but I wouldn't expect the water to be full of flammable natural gas.

Nope, They contain 500 to 600 micro grams of arsenic per liter.

MortFurd · 9th March 2007, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Dustin

Nope, They contain 500 to 600 micro grams of arsenic per liter.

I was talking about the "natural gas" comment, which looks funny but doesn't really mean that there's a flammable gas in your water.

Arsenic is a poisonous metalloid element, and you don't want any of that in your water. I didn't say or imply that there's no arsenic in the Armenian bottled water.

No natural gas. Arsenic content as described in the report.

Corpse Cruncher · 9th March 2007, 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by kittynh

I still like the Sprite commercials that show the bear peeing in the natural spring.

How very true that is. Natural water - nature's sceptic tank.

The Atheist · 9th March 2007, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by Slimething

Is that like Derrier Water?

Brilliant!

MortFurd · 9th March 2007, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by Corpse Cruncher

How very true that is. Natural water - nature's sceptic tank.

Originally Posted by W.C Fields

Never drink water. Fish f*** in it.

rjh01 · 9th March 2007, 03:12 AM

Tap water. 99+% natural. Safer than any other drink.

Baron Samedi · 9th March 2007, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by MortFurd

Originally Posted by W.C Fields
Never drink water. Fish f*** in it.

Mmmmmm.... creamy.

Cuddles · 9th March 2007, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by MortFurd

"Natural gas" in this case is most likely a crummy translation. What the original (the text on the bottles sold in Armenia) probably meant was "Fortified with the naturally occuring carbon dioxide gas from the spring."

In German, "Natural gas" is "Erdgas" which means "gas from the earth." I'm probably going to bungle this, but "natural gas" would translate literally as "Natuerliches Gas." "Gas" being in German any kind of matter in the form of a gas. When referring to bottled water, "Gas" always means "carbon dioxide gas."

I know Germany is not Armenia. I'm just using German to illustrate the difficulties of translating not just the words, but the cultural content that surrounds the use of those words.

So, yeah, the text sounds funny but I wouldn't expect the water to be full of flammable natural gas.

In fact, the natural gas comment is likely only there because of differences in labelling regulations. Almost all (if not actuall all) sparkling water is not actually taken straight from a spring and bottled. It is taken from a spring, cleaned and filtered and then has the sparkle reintroduced. When it is advertised as "naturally sparkling" what they actually mean is that the water in the spring has CO2 in it and the same CO2 that was taken out of it in processing is put back in, rather than using evil artificial CO2. The same is true for water that naturally contains minerals. This means that there is always a standard amount of things in it and so the labels are accurate when they state there is a certain amount of whatever in it. I would guess that Armenian labels state this explicitly, and so the translation also does. It only seems amusing because people don't realise this is exactly what happens with their normal bottled water as well.

Baron Samedi · 9th March 2007, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Cuddles

In fact, the natural gas comment is likely only there because of differences in labelling regulations. Almost all (if not actuall all) sparkling water is not actually taken straight from a spring and bottled. It is taken from a spring, cleaned and filtered and then has the sparkle reintroduced. When it is advertised as "naturally sparkling" what they actually mean is that the water in the spring has CO2 in it and the same CO2 that was taken out of it in processing is put back in, rather than using evil artificial CO2. The same is true for water that naturally contains minerals. This means that there is always a standard amount of things in it and so the labels are accurate when they state there is a certain amount of whatever in it. I would guess that Armenian labels state this explicitly, and so the translation also does. It only seems amusing because people don't realise this is exactly what happens with their normal bottled water as well.

I'm confused (which isn't rare). They filter the water, remove the stuff, and then put all the stuff back in? What am I missing here, since this sounds very silly to me.

Cuddles · 9th March 2007, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Baron Samedi

I'm confused (which isn't rare). They filter the water, remove the stuff, and then put all the stuff back in? What am I missing here, since this sounds very silly to me.

Food has to be standard. If a label says "0.1g calcium", the bottle has to contain 0.1g of calcium, within certain error limits. Water coming straight out of a spring has no such regulation and so different bottles could contain thousands of times more or less than is claimed, which is illegal in most places and could be very dangerous. This isn't a problem for some mineral water, where the minerals are simply added in production. For water that is advertised as containg naturally occuring minerals however, the water must genuinely contain them naturally, so taking them out and then putting them back in standard amounts is the only solution, or at least the only one that I know of. I can't guarantee this is true for all mineral water, but it certainly true for a lot of it, and it seems a reasonable explanation for the wording on the Armenian label.

It is indeed very silly, but with the hang-up people have with the word "natural" these days it is presumably still profitable.

Beady · 9th March 2007, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by MortFurd

I'm just using German to illustrate the difficulties of translating not just the words, but the cultural content that surrounds the use of those words.

Do you mean it's sort of like with Russian, where scientists have to talk about vortexes in polite society because "black hole" has an entirely different cultural meaning?

Baron Samedi · 9th March 2007, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by Cuddles

Food has to be standard. If a label says "0.1g calcium", the bottle has to contain 0.1g of calcium, within certain error limits. Water coming straight out of a spring has no such regulation and so different bottles could contain thousands of times more or less than is claimed, which is illegal in most places and could be very dangerous. This isn't a problem for some mineral water, where the minerals are simply added in production. For water that is advertised as containg naturally occuring minerals however, the water must genuinely contain them naturally, so taking them out and then putting them back in standard amounts is the only solution, or at least the only one that I know of. I can't guarantee this is true for all mineral water, but it certainly true for a lot of it, and it seems a reasonable explanation for the wording on the Armenian label.

It is indeed very silly, but with the hang-up people have with the word "natural" these days it is presumably still profitable.

Right. I forgot about that labeling on the side, "Content per serving: Sodium 0g; Glucose 2g; Carbon 2g; Arsenic 500 µg" etc. Thank you kindly for this!

ponderingturtle · 9th March 2007, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by MortFurd

So, yeah, the text sounds funny but I wouldn't expect the water to be full of flammable natural gas.

Wasn't there a notable explosion in england because of this very issue I remember seeing something about it on an engineering disaster show

MortFurd · 9th March 2007, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Beady

Do you mean it's sort of like with Russian, where scientists have to talk about vortexes in polite society because "black hole" has an entirely different cultural meaning?

I don't know what "black hole" would be in Russian, though I could make a guess that it's something like a cornhole. That would be the kind of thing I'm talking about. A literal translation that doesn't mean anything like what it looks like it would.

Another good example would be "Kohlensauere." This is a common (in Germany) way to refer to the carbonation in bottled water. The usual translation for that is "Carbonic Acid," and I don't expect you'd get many takers when trying to push that in the US: "St. Medardus Quelle - All natural spring water with natural carbonic acid." (St. Medardus Quelle - Natuerliche Mineralwasser mit natuerlichem Kohlensaeure." All it really means is naturally carbonated spring water, but it doesn't sound too yummy to American ears.

MortFurd · 9th March 2007, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Cuddles

Food has to be standard. If a label says "0.1g calcium", the bottle has to contain 0.1g of calcium, within certain error limits. Water coming straight out of a spring has no such regulation and so different bottles could contain thousands of times more or less than is claimed, which is illegal in most places and could be very dangerous. This isn't a problem for some mineral water, where the minerals are simply added in production. For water that is advertised as containg naturally occuring minerals however, the water must genuinely contain them naturally, so taking them out and then putting them back in standard amounts is the only solution, or at least the only one that I know of. I can't guarantee this is true for all mineral water, but it certainly true for a lot of it, and it seems a reasonable explanation for the wording on the Armenian label.

It is indeed very silly, but with the hang-up people have with the word "natural" these days it is presumably still profitable.

One of the things that tickles me about mineral water is that (at least here in Germany,) bottled water doesn't have to meet the same standards as tap water. Most folks still prefer mineral water here, though.

One of my favorite incidents with the mineral water/tap water thing occurred here in a small village. The local water supply was from a well that was drilled in the village. The water was piped to all the houses, so it falls under the tap water laws. The water wasn't clean enough to meet those regulations, so the federal government told the folks they couldn't use their tap water for drinking or cooking. The tap water did meet the less strict bottled water requirements, though, so the folks just got themselves some bottles, labeled them "Natural mineral water" and filled them from the tap. When anybody came to check, they'd find the village folks all drinking and cooking with bottled water - all copacetic.

This story was on a TV program about ten years ago, and the program was about highlighting stupid bureaucratic non-sense. I expect the situation has been changed, but it was funny.

MortFurd · 9th March 2007, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Wasn't there a notable explosion in england because of this very issue I remember seeing something about it on an engineering disaster show

I've never heard of that incident. Even so, I doubt the bottlers would have been advertising that they had natural gas (flammable stuff) in the water. Since the bottling plant exploded, it seems more like the gas snuck when the bottlers weren't expecting it.

I did some searching, and couldn't find anything about a bottling plant explosion in England. I got about gazillion hits on "water bottling England explosion." Too much crap do sort through.

SusanB-M1 · 10th March 2007, 08:21 AM

#14 Cuddles

I am always rather puzzled by bottled water. In England I never buy it as tap water has nothing wrong with it and tastes fine to me. I do not travel as much as I used to, but when I was in Egypt a while back I did, as advised, use only bottled water. Do you know where this would have been bottled? How would I know if it was properly purified I wonder? Are there a few simple links which would provide information on this? I'd appreciate any comments.

Dr. Imago · 11th March 2007, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by Dustin

There's a famous saying..

Beer has strength,

Wine has thought,

Water has...bacteria.

I prefer W.C. Fields take on it...

"Never drink water. Fish fornicate in it."

-Dr. Imago

Cuddles · 12th March 2007, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by SusanB-M1

#14 Cuddles

I am always rather puzzled by bottled water. In England I never buy it as tap water has nothing wrong with it and tastes fine to me. I do not travel as much as I used to, but when I was in Egypt a while back I did, as advised, use only bottled water. Do you know where this would have been bottled? How would I know if it was properly purified I wonder? Are there a few simple links which would provide information on this? I'd appreciate any comments.

I would guess that you would have to contact specific manufacturers or their regulatory bodies to find that out. The British regulations are here, but that does not say anything about other countries, or whether regulations have actually been followed. I think that most mineral water is international, so it will tend to be safe. For example, Evian comes from the French alps. Whether you buy it in Egypt or Britain you get water from France, so it is likely to be safer than either potentially unsafe local water, or local bottled water with unknown safety procedures.

One important thing to note is that "Natural Mineral Water" and "Spring Water" are very specific phrases that refer to water that genuinely is straight from the spring without any processing allowed. Waters labelled with these (hopefully) do not go through the processing I've described. However, many advertise themselves as "Water naturally rich in minerals" or similar, which sounds the same but does not carry the same regulations. Interestingly I found this article in New Scientist from 1997 about the problems with mineral water. The current regulations are part of a law from 1999, so it is possible that the situation with taking stuff out and putting it straight back in is not as common now and so things are not as silly as I thought they were.

Crazycowbob · 12th March 2007, 09:15 AM

Well this is deffinately disconserting! As the water here is only barely drinkable, much of the water that is consumed is bottled, and I'm rather surprised this wasn't caught earlier. Arsenic is rediculously easy to detect, you'd figure it'd be near the top of the list of things to test for in drinking water. Around here, arsenic was used at one time very heavily as an insecticide, so a lot of soil and water is contaminated, and has to be checked, but I guess it's not as major of a concern on the other side of the ocean?

And the natural gas thing is funny!

MortFurd · 12th March 2007, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Crazycowbob

Well this is deffinately disconserting! As the water here is only barely drinkable, much of the water that is consumed is bottled, and I'm rather surprised this wasn't caught earlier. Arsenic is rediculously easy to detect, you'd figure it'd be near the top of the list of things to test for in drinking water. Around here, arsenic was used at one time very heavily as an insecticide, so a lot of soil and water is contaminated, and has to be checked, but I guess it's not as major of a concern on the other side of the ocean?

And the natural gas thing is funny!

"Drink Jermuk, fortified with natural gas for heavenly Blue Angels!"

Dogdoctor · 12th March 2007, 03:09 PM

I am fortified with natural gas. It comes from eating a lot of fiber. Does that make me classy?

Mongrel · 12th March 2007, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Dogdoctor

I am fortified with natural gas. It comes from eating a lot of fiber. Does that make me classy?

Yes, but only because you can blame it on the dog

SusanB-M1 · 13th March 2007, 11:04 AM

#25 Cuddles

Thank you for your reply and the links which I have had a look at. It is reassuring to know that buying, say, Evian water anywhere means that it comes from France. I suppose it's a whole separate question about how much global warming is caused by such vast quantities of plastic bottles containing water being shipped around the world. One can only hope that the health benefits to the people drinking the water make it worth while.

Baron Samedi · 13th March 2007, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by SusanB-M1

#25 Cuddles

Thank you for your reply and the links which I have had a look at. It is reassuring to know that buying, say, Evian water anywhere means that it comes from France. I suppose it's a whole separate question about how much global warming is caused by such vast quantities of plastic bottles containing water being shipped around the world. One can only hope that the health benefits to the people drinking the water make it worth while.

Forget the global warming, how much extra lung cancer is out there from the added transportation exhaust? Mmmmmm... truck fumes are yummy. Or chemical residue from manufacturing the plastic bottles? Or from the chemicals needed to sterilize the water? Or from all the added pretty ink for the labeling which now leeches into my local groundwater supply and causing me to buy more water from France?

SusanB-M1 · 14th March 2007, 11:17 AM

Too true, unfortunately. Recycling collection here includes plastic bottles of that type, but as I think I mentioned I am quite happy with the tap water.

Baron Samedi · 14th March 2007, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by SusanB-M1

Too true, unfortunately. Recycling collection here includes plastic bottles of that type, but as I think I mentioned I am quite happy with the tap water.

Recycling still takes energy, transportation costs, gas, fuel, chemicals to bleach and treat the plastic, etc., on top of the material and waste to originally create the plastic, vs. just opening a tap. It's a pet peeve of mine when people tell me that their bottled water is more healthy than the tap water. Healthier for who, the people dealing with all these extra chemicals from the plastic bottles? And besides, most bottled water is sourced from "<insert city name here> municipal water supply", so the water itself isn't that different.

Besides, I'm just a cheap bugger. If I'm going to spend any sort of money on a pint of beverage, it better have alcohol in it.

SusanB-M1 · 15th March 2007, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Baron Samedi

Recycling still takes energy, transportation costs, gas, fuel, chemicals to bleach and treat the plastic, etc., on top of the material and waste to originally create the plastic, vs. just opening a tap. It's a pet peeve of mine when people tell me that their bottled water is more healthy than the tap water. Healthier for who, the people dealing with all these extra chemicals from the plastic bottles? And besides, most bottled water is sourced from "<insert city name here> municipal water supply", so the water itself isn't that different.

Yes, I've given up asking people why they think their bottled water is healthier.
Also I wonder about the water itself. If it goes into the bottle straight from some spring or other, then surely there must be bacteria etc in it. So why does it not go off in the bottle. I suppose the answer is because it is vacuum sealed or something.

Cuddles · 16th March 2007, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by SusanB-M1

Yes, I've given up asking people why they think their bottled water is healthier.
Also I wonder about the water itself. If it goes into the bottle straight from some spring or other, then surely there must be bacteria etc in it. So why does it not go off in the bottle. I suppose the answer is because it is vacuum sealed or something.

That's explained a bit in one of the links I posted, or somewhere that they link to. Bascially, most bottled water is processed to death, so it is sterile. Of course, exactly the same methods are used to sterilise it as are used with tap water, so there really is no difference between the two. "Natural Mineral Water" and "Spring Water" are legally not allowed to be processed at all. Instead they make sure the water doesn't contain dangerous amounts of anything and then put it straight in a sealed bottle so nothing else can get in.

Water can't really "go off" though. Things go off because they are eaten by mould and bacteria and the like, but water doesn't provide any food for them. There will be small amounts of organic stuff in it, but presumably not enough for bacteria to breed to dangerous levels.

SusanB-M1 · 18th March 2007, 08:25 AM

Cuddles
Thank you. When the subject comes up in conversation, I shall in future be much more assertive about the pros and cons!

Crazycowbob · 19th March 2007, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by SusanB-M1

Cuddles
Thank you. When the subject comes up in conversation, I shall in future be much more assertive about the pros and cons!

Just don't forget location when arguing pros and cons, since they may not apply the same in civilized areas as they would in third world countries, Mexico, and Lubbock...

fsol · 19th March 2007, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by MortFurd

I've never heard of that incident. Even so, I doubt the bottlers would have been advertising that they had natural gas (flammable stuff) in the water. Since the bottling plant exploded, it seems more like the gas snuck when the bottlers weren't expecting it.

I did some searching, and couldn't find anything about a bottling plant explosion in England. I got about gazillion hits on "water bottling England explosion." Too much crap do sort through.

Migrating landfill gas that seeped out somewhere and went boom would be my guess.

EternalSceptic · 19th March 2007, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by SusanB-M1

Yes, I've given up asking people why they think their bottled water is healthier.
Also I wonder about the water itself. If it goes into the bottle straight from some spring or other, then surely there must be bacteria etc in it. So why does it not go off in the bottle. I suppose the answer is because it is vacuum sealed or something.

Reminds me on an excursion I made with some _very natural living and very christian_ people to the "Ötscher Graben" (A beutyful narrow valley in austria).
It was summer. It was _really_ hot and dry. And it is a long way, about 15 miles, mostly upwards. Some of the participants had 1 litre bottles of bottled water with them (ways not enough, and others were drinking beer (!) at a resting station about half the way up) - and the bottles wer empty after 1/3 of the walk. I had a half litre bottle of normal water with me and refilled it at springs we found (there are little springs every few meters there, it's part of the chalk-alps) and had enough water for the whole time. Some of the participants suffered from thirst after half of the distance, but refused to take some of the spring water, which is filtered and mineralized through hundreds of meters of chalk rocks.
This water is cleaner than every water you can buy in bottles, but they refused, and one of them was very close to a breakdown whe we arrived at our goal.

Stupidity rules.

sophia8 · 19th March 2007, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Wasn't there a notable explosion in england because of this very issue I remember seeing something about it on an engineering disaster show

The only natural gas explosion in England (that I know of) was the Ronan Point explosion.
But that was nothing to do with bottled water - it was a gas leakage in a block of flats.

8th March 2007, 09:20 PM	#4
kittynh The Hupsu Detective auctioneer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: If I told the aliens could find me, and you know they read this forum Posts: 22,707	I still like the Sprite commercials that show the bear peeing in the natural spring.
	__________________ WWW.BADALIEN.ORG - not all the buttons work yet, and the science content is coming...but it's ALIVE!

8th March 2007, 10:14 PM	#5
Dustin Kesselberg Usus magister est optimus Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Al Jumahiriyah al Arabiyah al Libiyah ash Shabiyah al Ishtirakiyah al Uzma Posts: 4,673	There's a famous saying.. Beer has strength, Wine has thought, Water has...bacteria.
	__________________

9th March 2007, 12:18 AM	#7
Dustin Kesselberg Usus magister est optimus Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Al Jumahiriyah al Arabiyah al Libiyah ash Shabiyah al Ishtirakiyah al Uzma Posts: 4,673	Originally Posted by MortFurd "Natural gas" in this case is most likely a crummy translation. What the original (the text on the bottles sold in Armenia) probably meant was "Fortified with the naturally occuring carbon dioxide gas from the spring." In German, "Natural gas" is "Erdgas" which means "gas from the earth." I'm probably going to bungle this, but "natural gas" would translate literally as "Natuerliches Gas." "Gas" being in German any kind of matter in the form of a gas. When referring to bottled water, "Gas" always means "carbon dioxide gas." I know Germany is not Armenia. I'm just using German to illustrate the difficulties of translating not just the words, but the cultural content that surrounds the use of those words. So, yeah, the text sounds funny but I wouldn't expect the water to be full of flammable natural gas. Nope, They contain 500 to 600 micro grams of arsenic per liter.
	__________________

9th March 2007, 01:06 AM	#10
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,928	Originally Posted by Slimething Is that like Derrier Water? Brilliant!
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

9th March 2007, 07:55 AM	#16
Cuddles Decoy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land full of pink fluffy sheeps and bunnies Posts: 16,597	Originally Posted by Baron Samedi I'm confused (which isn't rare). They filter the water, remove the stuff, and then put all the stuff back in? What am I missing here, since this sounds very silly to me. Food has to be standard. If a label says "0.1g calcium", the bottle has to contain 0.1g of calcium, within certain error limits. Water coming straight out of a spring has no such regulation and so different bottles could contain thousands of times more or less than is claimed, which is illegal in most places and could be very dangerous. This isn't a problem for some mineral water, where the minerals are simply added in production. For water that is advertised as containg naturally occuring minerals however, the water must genuinely contain them naturally, so taking them out and then putting them back in standard amounts is the only solution, or at least the only one that I know of. I can't guarantee this is true for all mineral water, but it certainly true for a lot of it, and it seems a reasonable explanation for the wording on the Armenian label. It is indeed very silly, but with the hang-up people have with the word "natural" these days it is presumably still profitable.
	__________________ I am not a little teapot.

8th March 2007, 02:41 PM	#1
Baron Samedi Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Kayfabe, Upper Canada Posts: 488	Bottled water warning I just read about bottled water from Armenia being labeled dangerous by the FDA. Here's a link to the story: http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/200...r-arsenic.html What I find amusing is this part here: Quote: The Jermuk brands, which were distributed across the United States and have been recalled, include: Jermuk Original Sparkling Natural Mineral Water Fortified With Natural Gas From The Spring, imported by Zetlian Bakery Inc. of Pico Rivera, Calif. Mmmm.... nothing says goodness like "fortified with natural gas".

8th March 2007, 08:29 PM	#2
Dustin Kesselberg Usus magister est optimus Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Al Jumahiriyah al Arabiyah al Libiyah ash Shabiyah al Ishtirakiyah al Uzma Posts: 4,673	That'll put hair on your back..
	__________________

8th March 2007, 09:14 PM	#3
Slimething Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Arizona USA Posts: 3,727	Originally Posted by Baron Samedi Mmmm.... nothing says goodness like "fortified with natural gas". Is that like Derrier Water?

9th March 2007, 12:10 AM	#6
MortFurd Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: An American in Germany Posts: 1,975	Originally Posted by Baron Samedi I just read about bottled water from Armenia being labeled dangerous by the FDA. Here's a link to the story: http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/200...r-arsenic.html What I find amusing is this part here: Mmmm.... nothing says goodness like "fortified with natural gas". "Natural gas" in this case is most likely a crummy translation. What the original (the text on the bottles sold in Armenia) probably meant was "Fortified with the naturally occuring carbon dioxide gas from the spring." In German, "Natural gas" is "Erdgas" which means "gas from the earth." I'm probably going to bungle this, but "natural gas" would translate literally as "Natuerliches Gas." "Gas" being in German any kind of matter in the form of a gas. When referring to bottled water, "Gas" always means "carbon dioxide gas." I know Germany is not Armenia. I'm just using German to illustrate the difficulties of translating not just the words, but the cultural content that surrounds the use of those words. So, yeah, the text sounds funny but I wouldn't expect the water to be full of flammable natural gas.

9th March 2007, 12:43 AM	#8
MortFurd Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: An American in Germany Posts: 1,975	Originally Posted by Dustin Nope, They contain 500 to 600 micro grams of arsenic per liter. I was talking about the "natural gas" comment, which looks funny but doesn't really mean that there's a flammable gas in your water. Arsenic is a poisonous metalloid element, and you don't want any of that in your water. I didn't say or imply that there's no arsenic in the Armenian bottled water. No natural gas. Arsenic content as described in the report.

9th March 2007, 01:03 AM	#9
Corpse Cruncher Guest Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: In the great cooking pot in the sky. Posts: 3,811	Originally Posted by kittynh I still like the Sprite commercials that show the bear peeing in the natural spring. How very true that is. Natural water - nature's sceptic tank.

9th March 2007, 02:11 AM	#11
MortFurd Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: An American in Germany Posts: 1,975	Originally Posted by Corpse Cruncher How very true that is. Natural water - nature's sceptic tank. Originally Posted by W.C Fields Never drink water. Fish f*** in it.

9th March 2007, 03:12 AM	#12
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,197	Tap water. 99+% natural. Safer than any other drink.

9th March 2007, 07:13 AM	#13
Baron Samedi Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Kayfabe, Upper Canada Posts: 488	Originally Posted by MortFurd Originally Posted by W.C Fields Never drink water. Fish f*** in it. Mmmmmm.... creamy.

9th March 2007, 07:27 AM	#14
Cuddles Decoy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land full of pink fluffy sheeps and bunnies Posts: 16,597	Originally Posted by MortFurd "Natural gas" in this case is most likely a crummy translation. What the original (the text on the bottles sold in Armenia) probably meant was "Fortified with the naturally occuring carbon dioxide gas from the spring." In German, "Natural gas" is "Erdgas" which means "gas from the earth." I'm probably going to bungle this, but "natural gas" would translate literally as "Natuerliches Gas." "Gas" being in German any kind of matter in the form of a gas. When referring to bottled water, "Gas" always means "carbon dioxide gas." I know Germany is not Armenia. I'm just using German to illustrate the difficulties of translating not just the words, but the cultural content that surrounds the use of those words. So, yeah, the text sounds funny but I wouldn't expect the water to be full of flammable natural gas. In fact, the natural gas comment is likely only there because of differences in labelling regulations. Almost all (if not actuall all) sparkling water is not actually taken straight from a spring and bottled. It is taken from a spring, cleaned and filtered and then has the sparkle reintroduced. When it is advertised as "naturally sparkling" what they actually mean is that the water in the spring has CO2 in it and the same CO2 that was taken out of it in processing is put back in, rather than using evil artificial CO2. The same is true for water that naturally contains minerals. This means that there is always a standard amount of things in it and so the labels are accurate when they state there is a certain amount of whatever in it. I would guess that Armenian labels state this explicitly, and so the translation also does. It only seems amusing because people don't realise this is exactly what happens with their normal bottled water as well.
	__________________ I am not a little teapot.

9th March 2007, 07:49 AM	#15
Baron Samedi Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Kayfabe, Upper Canada Posts: 488	Originally Posted by Cuddles In fact, the natural gas comment is likely only there because of differences in labelling regulations. Almost all (if not actuall all) sparkling water is not actually taken straight from a spring and bottled. It is taken from a spring, cleaned and filtered and then has the sparkle reintroduced. When it is advertised as "naturally sparkling" what they actually mean is that the water in the spring has CO2 in it and the same CO2 that was taken out of it in processing is put back in, rather than using evil artificial CO2. The same is true for water that naturally contains minerals. This means that there is always a standard amount of things in it and so the labels are accurate when they state there is a certain amount of whatever in it. I would guess that Armenian labels state this explicitly, and so the translation also does. It only seems amusing because people don't realise this is exactly what happens with their normal bottled water as well. I'm confused (which isn't rare). They filter the water, remove the stuff, and then put all the stuff back in? What am I missing here, since this sounds very silly to me.

9th March 2007, 08:06 AM	#17
Beady Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: 44:57:19N, 73:16:18W Posts: 5,490	Originally Posted by MortFurd I'm just using German to illustrate the difficulties of translating not just the words, but the cultural content that surrounds the use of those words. Do you mean it's sort of like with Russian, where scientists have to talk about vortexes in polite society because "black hole" has an entirely different cultural meaning?
	__________________ I tolerate with utmost latitude the right of others to differ with me in opinion without imputing to them criminality. I know too well all the weaknesses and uncertainty of human reason to wonder at its different results. -- Thomas Jefferson

9th March 2007, 08:07 AM	#18
Baron Samedi Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Kayfabe, Upper Canada Posts: 488	Originally Posted by Cuddles Food has to be standard. If a label says "0.1g calcium", the bottle has to contain 0.1g of calcium, within certain error limits. Water coming straight out of a spring has no such regulation and so different bottles could contain thousands of times more or less than is claimed, which is illegal in most places and could be very dangerous. This isn't a problem for some mineral water, where the minerals are simply added in production. For water that is advertised as containg naturally occuring minerals however, the water must genuinely contain them naturally, so taking them out and then putting them back in standard amounts is the only solution, or at least the only one that I know of. I can't guarantee this is true for all mineral water, but it certainly true for a lot of it, and it seems a reasonable explanation for the wording on the Armenian label. It is indeed very silly, but with the hang-up people have with the word "natural" these days it is presumably still profitable. Right. I forgot about that labeling on the side, "Content per serving: Sodium 0g; Glucose 2g; Carbon 2g; Arsenic 500 µg" etc. Thank you kindly for this!

9th March 2007, 08:14 AM	#19
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,433	Originally Posted by MortFurd So, yeah, the text sounds funny but I wouldn't expect the water to be full of flammable natural gas. Wasn't there a notable explosion in england because of this very issue I remember seeing something about it on an engineering disaster show
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

9th March 2007, 08:22 AM	#20
MortFurd Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: An American in Germany Posts: 1,975	Originally Posted by Beady Do you mean it's sort of like with Russian, where scientists have to talk about vortexes in polite society because "black hole" has an entirely different cultural meaning? I don't know what "black hole" would be in Russian, though I could make a guess that it's something like a cornhole. That would be the kind of thing I'm talking about. A literal translation that doesn't mean anything like what it looks like it would. Another good example would be "Kohlensauere." This is a common (in Germany) way to refer to the carbonation in bottled water. The usual translation for that is "Carbonic Acid," and I don't expect you'd get many takers when trying to push that in the US: "St. Medardus Quelle - All natural spring water with natural carbonic acid." (St. Medardus Quelle - Natuerliche Mineralwasser mit natuerlichem Kohlensaeure." All it really means is naturally carbonated spring water, but it doesn't sound too yummy to American ears.

9th March 2007, 08:33 AM	#21
MortFurd Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: An American in Germany Posts: 1,975	Originally Posted by Cuddles Food has to be standard. If a label says "0.1g calcium", the bottle has to contain 0.1g of calcium, within certain error limits. Water coming straight out of a spring has no such regulation and so different bottles could contain thousands of times more or less than is claimed, which is illegal in most places and could be very dangerous. This isn't a problem for some mineral water, where the minerals are simply added in production. For water that is advertised as containg naturally occuring minerals however, the water must genuinely contain them naturally, so taking them out and then putting them back in standard amounts is the only solution, or at least the only one that I know of. I can't guarantee this is true for all mineral water, but it certainly true for a lot of it, and it seems a reasonable explanation for the wording on the Armenian label. It is indeed very silly, but with the hang-up people have with the word "natural" these days it is presumably still profitable. One of the things that tickles me about mineral water is that (at least here in Germany,) bottled water doesn't have to meet the same standards as tap water. Most folks still prefer mineral water here, though. One of my favorite incidents with the mineral water/tap water thing occurred here in a small village. The local water supply was from a well that was drilled in the village. The water was piped to all the houses, so it falls under the tap water laws. The water wasn't clean enough to meet those regulations, so the federal government told the folks they couldn't use their tap water for drinking or cooking. The tap water did meet the less strict bottled water requirements, though, so the folks just got themselves some bottles, labeled them "Natural mineral water" and filled them from the tap. When anybody came to check, they'd find the village folks all drinking and cooking with bottled water - all copacetic. This story was on a TV program about ten years ago, and the program was about highlighting stupid bureaucratic non-sense. I expect the situation has been changed, but it was funny.

9th March 2007, 08:44 AM	#22
MortFurd Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: An American in Germany Posts: 1,975	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Wasn't there a notable explosion in england because of this very issue I remember seeing something about it on an engineering disaster show I've never heard of that incident. Even so, I doubt the bottlers would have been advertising that they had natural gas (flammable stuff) in the water. Since the bottling plant exploded, it seems more like the gas snuck when the bottlers weren't expecting it. I did some searching, and couldn't find anything about a bottling plant explosion in England. I got about gazillion hits on "water bottling England explosion." Too much crap do sort through.

10th March 2007, 08:21 AM	#23
SusanB-M1 Incurable Optimist Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Almost in the New Forest, Hampshire, UK Posts: 2,867	#14 Cuddles I am always rather puzzled by bottled water. In England I never buy it as tap water has nothing wrong with it and tastes fine to me. I do not travel as much as I used to, but when I was in Egypt a while back I did, as advised, use only bottled water. Do you know where this would have been bottled? How would I know if it was properly purified I wonder? Are there a few simple links which would provide information on this? I'd appreciate any comments.

11th March 2007, 09:13 AM	#24
Dr. Imago Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,051	Originally Posted by Dustin There's a famous saying.. Beer has strength, Wine has thought, Water has...bacteria. I prefer W.C. Fields take on it... "Never drink water. Fish fornicate in it." -Dr. Imago
Dr. Imago Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,051	__________________ DISCLAIMER: The above post is for informational and/or educational purposes only. It is not a substitute for the professional judgment of, in direct consultation with, a health care professional in diagnosing, treating, and/or preventing any disease or disorder. It is not to be construed as individualized medical advice, diagnosis, or a treatment recommendation. Your reliance upon the information obtained or used by you at, through, or as a result of this post is solely at your own risk.

12th March 2007, 08:53 AM	#25
Cuddles Decoy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land full of pink fluffy sheeps and bunnies Posts: 16,597	Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 #14 Cuddles I am always rather puzzled by bottled water. In England I never buy it as tap water has nothing wrong with it and tastes fine to me. I do not travel as much as I used to, but when I was in Egypt a while back I did, as advised, use only bottled water. Do you know where this would have been bottled? How would I know if it was properly purified I wonder? Are there a few simple links which would provide information on this? I'd appreciate any comments. I would guess that you would have to contact specific manufacturers or their regulatory bodies to find that out. The British regulations are here, but that does not say anything about other countries, or whether regulations have actually been followed. I think that most mineral water is international, so it will tend to be safe. For example, Evian comes from the French alps. Whether you buy it in Egypt or Britain you get water from France, so it is likely to be safer than either potentially unsafe local water, or local bottled water with unknown safety procedures. One important thing to note is that "Natural Mineral Water" and "Spring Water" are very specific phrases that refer to water that genuinely is straight from the spring without any processing allowed. Waters labelled with these (hopefully) do not go through the processing I've described. However, many advertise themselves as "Water naturally rich in minerals" or similar, which sounds the same but does not carry the same regulations. Interestingly I found this article in New Scientist from 1997 about the problems with mineral water. The current regulations are part of a law from 1999, so it is possible that the situation with taking stuff out and putting it straight back in is not as common now and so things are not as silly as I thought they were.
	__________________ I am not a little teapot.

12th March 2007, 09:15 AM	#26
Crazycowbob Bovine Overlord Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Lubbock, Texas Posts: 1,369	Well this is deffinately disconserting! As the water here is only barely drinkable, much of the water that is consumed is bottled, and I'm rather surprised this wasn't caught earlier. Arsenic is rediculously easy to detect, you'd figure it'd be near the top of the list of things to test for in drinking water. Around here, arsenic was used at one time very heavily as an insecticide, so a lot of soil and water is contaminated, and has to be checked, but I guess it's not as major of a concern on the other side of the ocean? And the natural gas thing is funny!
	__________________ "Pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space, 'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth." Eric Idle, The Meaning of Life

12th March 2007, 12:45 PM	#27
MortFurd Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: An American in Germany Posts: 1,975	Originally Posted by Crazycowbob Well this is deffinately disconserting! As the water here is only barely drinkable, much of the water that is consumed is bottled, and I'm rather surprised this wasn't caught earlier. Arsenic is rediculously easy to detect, you'd figure it'd be near the top of the list of things to test for in drinking water. Around here, arsenic was used at one time very heavily as an insecticide, so a lot of soil and water is contaminated, and has to be checked, but I guess it's not as major of a concern on the other side of the ocean? And the natural gas thing is funny! "Drink Jermuk, fortified with natural gas for heavenly Blue Angels!"

12th March 2007, 03:09 PM	#28
Dogdoctor Canis Doctorius Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pacific Ocean Posts: 14,291	I am fortified with natural gas. It comes from eating a lot of fiber. Does that make me classy?
	__________________

12th March 2007, 04:50 PM	#29
Mongrel Begging for Scraps Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: 20 minutes in the future Posts: 1,640	Originally Posted by Dogdoctor I am fortified with natural gas. It comes from eating a lot of fiber. Does that make me classy? Yes, but only because you can blame it on the dog
	__________________ “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” - Charles Darwin ...like so many contemporary philosophers he especially enjoyed giving helpful advice to people who were happier than he was. - Tom Lehrer

13th March 2007, 11:04 AM	#30
SusanB-M1 Incurable Optimist Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Almost in the New Forest, Hampshire, UK Posts: 2,867	#25 Cuddles Thank you for your reply and the links which I have had a look at. It is reassuring to know that buying, say, Evian water anywhere means that it comes from France. I suppose it's a whole separate question about how much global warming is caused by such vast quantities of plastic bottles containing water being shipped around the world. One can only hope that the health benefits to the people drinking the water make it worth while.

13th March 2007, 12:41 PM	#31
Baron Samedi Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Kayfabe, Upper Canada Posts: 488	Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 #25 Cuddles Thank you for your reply and the links which I have had a look at. It is reassuring to know that buying, say, Evian water anywhere means that it comes from France. I suppose it's a whole separate question about how much global warming is caused by such vast quantities of plastic bottles containing water being shipped around the world. One can only hope that the health benefits to the people drinking the water make it worth while. Forget the global warming, how much extra lung cancer is out there from the added transportation exhaust? Mmmmmm... truck fumes are yummy. Or chemical residue from manufacturing the plastic bottles? Or from the chemicals needed to sterilize the water? Or from all the added pretty ink for the labeling which now leeches into my local groundwater supply and causing me to buy more water from France?

14th March 2007, 11:17 AM	#32
SusanB-M1 Incurable Optimist Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Almost in the New Forest, Hampshire, UK Posts: 2,867	Too true, unfortunately. Recycling collection here includes plastic bottles of that type, but as I think I mentioned I am quite happy with the tap water.

14th March 2007, 11:44 AM	#33
Baron Samedi Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Kayfabe, Upper Canada Posts: 488	Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 Too true, unfortunately. Recycling collection here includes plastic bottles of that type, but as I think I mentioned I am quite happy with the tap water. Recycling still takes energy, transportation costs, gas, fuel, chemicals to bleach and treat the plastic, etc., on top of the material and waste to originally create the plastic, vs. just opening a tap. It's a pet peeve of mine when people tell me that their bottled water is more healthy than the tap water. Healthier for who, the people dealing with all these extra chemicals from the plastic bottles? And besides, most bottled water is sourced from "<insert city name here> municipal water supply", so the water itself isn't that different. Besides, I'm just a cheap bugger. If I'm going to spend any sort of money on a pint of beverage, it better have alcohol in it.

15th March 2007, 01:42 PM	#34
SusanB-M1 Incurable Optimist Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Almost in the New Forest, Hampshire, UK Posts: 2,867	Originally Posted by Baron Samedi Recycling still takes energy, transportation costs, gas, fuel, chemicals to bleach and treat the plastic, etc., on top of the material and waste to originally create the plastic, vs. just opening a tap. It's a pet peeve of mine when people tell me that their bottled water is more healthy than the tap water. Healthier for who, the people dealing with all these extra chemicals from the plastic bottles? And besides, most bottled water is sourced from "<insert city name here> municipal water supply", so the water itself isn't that different. Yes, I've given up asking people why they think their bottled water is healthier. Also I wonder about the water itself. If it goes into the bottle straight from some spring or other, then surely there must be bacteria etc in it. So why does it not go off in the bottle. I suppose the answer is because it is vacuum sealed or something.

16th March 2007, 06:53 AM	#35
Cuddles Decoy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land full of pink fluffy sheeps and bunnies Posts: 16,597	Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 Yes, I've given up asking people why they think their bottled water is healthier. Also I wonder about the water itself. If it goes into the bottle straight from some spring or other, then surely there must be bacteria etc in it. So why does it not go off in the bottle. I suppose the answer is because it is vacuum sealed or something. That's explained a bit in one of the links I posted, or somewhere that they link to. Bascially, most bottled water is processed to death, so it is sterile. Of course, exactly the same methods are used to sterilise it as are used with tap water, so there really is no difference between the two. "Natural Mineral Water" and "Spring Water" are legally not allowed to be processed at all. Instead they make sure the water doesn't contain dangerous amounts of anything and then put it straight in a sealed bottle so nothing else can get in. Water can't really "go off" though. Things go off because they are eaten by mould and bacteria and the like, but water doesn't provide any food for them. There will be small amounts of organic stuff in it, but presumably not enough for bacteria to breed to dangerous levels.
	__________________ I am not a little teapot.