| JREF Homepage | Swift Blog | Events Calendar | $1 Million Paranormal Challenge | The Amaz!ng Meeting | Useful Links | Support Us |
![]() |
|
|
|
|||||||
| Notices |
|
|
#1 |
|
Neoclinus blanchardi
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,442
|
Meta-Analysis Indicates Prayer Effective
|
|
__________________
The bamboo's shadow sweeps the stairs but it stirs no dust. The moonlight plunges deep into the pool yet it leaves no ripples. -- The Cat's Yawn |
|
|
|
|
|
#2 |
|
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 18,357
|
Quote:
Rant, foam, fall over backwards. Prayer has no place in the clinical relationship. If you want to be spiritual counselor then call yourself that. Arrgh, aggle-aggle, booya! |
|
__________________
Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blast on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us.- Walt Kelly wow Mr.Philospher, you need some custard poured over your head mayhaps? -kittynh "Exhibit 1338A as to why the Politics forum is "where rational thought goes to die."-Carlitos |
|
|
|
|
|
#3 |
|
Thinker
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Smack in the middle of a de Broglie wavelength.
Posts: 240
|
So prayers are effective, eh? I will make my usual observation.
Now that we know God is listening and can be tested, we can find out which kind of prayer he (sorry, big guy, I mean He) listens to. The protocol uses prayers of the Baptist, Catholic, Muslim (both Sunni and Shia), etc. Every one of the hundred thousand sects will be sent up. The sect with the most positive response will be the One True Faith. The rest will be slain as heretics. Amen. |
|
__________________
A Novel and Efficient Synthesis of Cadaverine Organic chemistry, vengeful ghosts, and high explosives. What could possibly go wrong? http://tinyurl.com/y86mj8s |
|
|
|
|
|
#4 |
|
seriously unable to be serious
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Posts: 2,382
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
#5 |
|
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,728
|
Oookaay, so including psychologocal illnesses means what? That prayer has a placebo effect on disorders of the mind ? Whereas the studies about physical diseases show no advantage. Who would have suspected that?
Reminiscent of the old saw about "How come there's all those crutches at Lourdes, but NO wooden legs?" |
|
__________________
Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts. Some have called me cynical, but I don't believe them. It's not how many breaths you take. It's how many times you have been breathless that counts. |
|
|
|
|
|
#6 |
|
Muse
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 656
|
Read your entire link. It goes on to cite a Harvard study, with this conclusion:
Quote:
Any conventional medical treatment that should evidence of being associated with complications would be a candidate for banning. |
|
|
|
|
#7 |
|
Cereal Killer
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,507
|
odd, I keep trying to pull this article, but can't. I wonder if the editor yanked it...lol
Never heard of the journal, but browsing its TOC, it publishes a lot of stuff on spirituality. I think we should read this article. If done right (well controlled, double blind and all that) any effect size greater than zero would present a significant problem for materialism. Note the key words there are "if done right"... |
|
__________________
Manifest thy bosoms or decamp. |
|
|
|
|
|
#8 |
|
Fortean
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 1,695
|
Hmmm, person wants to prove power of prayer with statistics.
Gets a result of p=0.015 But statistics would set the significance level at p=0.01, perhaps more, at p=0.001. Certainly not at p=0.05 (ie, 1 in 20) Person doesn't care about that bit of statistics Person declares significant result anyway |
|
__________________
"Once a man admits complete and unshakeable faith in his own integrity, he is in an excellent frame of mind to be approached by con men." David W. Maurer, "The Big Con" http://ersby.blogspot.com |
|
|
|
|
|
#9 |
|
Cereal Killer
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,507
|
|
|
__________________
Manifest thy bosoms or decamp. |
|
|
|
|
|
#10 |
|
Fortean
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 1,695
|
Sorry, that was a typo - my point still stands.
Thanks for the correction. |
|
__________________
"Once a man admits complete and unshakeable faith in his own integrity, he is in an excellent frame of mind to be approached by con men." David W. Maurer, "The Big Con" http://ersby.blogspot.com |
|
|
|
|
|
#11 |
|
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bernhardsthal, Austria (Europe)
Posts: 223
|
From the comments:
"I think it's very significant that Jesus was always more concerned with spiritual health than with physical healing, although he performed more than a few of those as well. We will all die eventually. Prayer may not have any impact on the method or speed of that death, but I believe that the impact of prayer on spiritual healing is beyond measure. " "is beyond measure" - how true. LMAO |
|
|
|
|
#12 |
|
Thinker
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 203
|
The problem with this paper is that it looks like a very bad meta-analysis.
The author is aware of some of the problems: 1. Publication bias - positive studies get published more often than negative ones. To control for this, authors of a meta analysis should make an active search for studies that were done but not published. The author admits this is a possibility but makes no such effort. 2. Presentation of the data - no funnel plot, no relative risk, no 95% confidence intervals, no explicit statements on population size/weighting 3. Heterogeneity of the sudies combined in the analysis: including the effect on pregnancy rates on in vitro fertilization, outcomes after surgery and, my favorite study of all: a RETROSPECTIVE randomized controlled trial on the efficacy of prayer. I cannot believe it is valid to combine such widely divergent outcome measures. But if you are bored, check out the link above, and then the rapid response comments following it. This is truly a mind-bogglingly stupid paper and I was amazed to see it included in this "meta analysis". But the |
|
|
|
|
#13 |
|
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,049
|
This appears to be a paper published in the Christmas BMJ issue. I think the BMJ, like several other medical journals, publishes silly, off-beat, satirical, etc. articles as a special present at that time of year.
I don't have access to the meta-analysis, but if that study was included, then the meta-analysis can be safely ignored as invalid. ETA: Are you also saying that this possibly fraudulent study was included in the meta-analysis? Linda |
|
__________________
God - a capricious creative or controlling force said to be the subject of a religion. Evidence is anything that tends to make a proposition more or less true.-Loss Leader sCAM will now be referred to as DIM - Demonstrably Ineffective Medicine www.stopsylvia.com |
|
|
|
|
|
#14 |
|
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,562
|
I'm pretty sure the retrospective RCT is a joke - they prayed for the patients up to 10 years after their illness!
|
|
__________________
Believe those who seek the truth; doubt those who find it. -Andre Gide I am naive enough to believe that society will be changed by examination of ideas through books and the press, and that information can prove to be greater than the dissemination of stupidity - Dr. Seuss |
|
|
|
|
|
#15 |
|
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 10,992
|
I'm trying to think of what it would mean anyway if the effect is only proven in a meta-analysis--that prayer works a tiny amount that's only detectable over huge numbers?
So it's not like every hair is numbered, not a sparrow falls, whatso'er you ask it shall be granted kind of thing I guess. I'm sure this is the argument the faithful are looking for. |
|
__________________
"That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons |
|
|
|
|
|
#16 |
|
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,018
|
Ah, the paradox. No study of christian prayers could possibly show a positive effect without contradicting the bible.
If a study shows no effect, christian apologists are quick to point out that the bible says god can not be tested. Therefore, the negative result validates their belief! But if a study shows a positive effect, then the claim that god can not be tested is proven false. This inconvenient truth will be ignored, of course, and the positive result will validate their beliefs.... |
|
__________________
Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali A powerful and moving story of a strong and courageous woman’s struggle to free herself from a culture that treats women as property. Despite repeated death threats from religious zealots, she campaigns tirelessly for the rights of Muslim women. A tearful, chilling, yet inspiring, tale of personal triumph and dedication to free expression. |
|
|
|
|
|
#17 |
|
formerly skeptigirl
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods
Posts: 19,317
|
I can get access to this paper but I have to physically go to the campus library. Apparently we lowly alumni can't access journals online.
Short of that, could one of you with access list all of the 17 actual studies analyzed such as the one listed above, it would be worth looking for ourselves. I'll be true to science and say, "show me the evidence", before calling BS on this. However, I have looked at all prayer studies that I have become aware of over the years and haven't found a single one with valid positive results. Regardless, claims the results are "significant" always seem to be made about the results. Re the claim god cannot be tested for, that comes from both sides, faithers and sciencers alike but usually in different contexts. Sciencers talk about the esoteric god outside of the natural world despite the fact few if any religions describe such a god (that would be the god that never answers prayers and/or always covers its tracks), and faithers use the, "you can't test for god" to excuse the lack of positive findings in research such as intercessory prayer. Considering the conclusions in this meta-analysis claim a "small but significant effect" one has to wonder why 'God' would be so miserly in granting favors. After all, are those Christians forgiven or not? |
|
__________________
Sk'p' 'el(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (**Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) |
|
|
|
|
|
#18 |
|
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,018
|
It is not just an idle speculation among believers. The bible specificaly states that god can not and will not be tested. Further, the bible commands that believers are to believe on faith alone and are not to test god or ask for proof. Therefore, anyone who undertakes such a test must not be a true believer...
And science says any claims that god meddles in the real world are subject to test and verification. |
|
__________________
Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali A powerful and moving story of a strong and courageous woman’s struggle to free herself from a culture that treats women as property. Despite repeated death threats from religious zealots, she campaigns tirelessly for the rights of Muslim women. A tearful, chilling, yet inspiring, tale of personal triumph and dedication to free expression. |
|
|
|
|
|
#19 |
|
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,562
|
I have the pdf and am happy to email it to anyone who sends an address via PM.
Yes, this is just a ploy to fill my PM Inbox. Popularity is important to me.
|
|
__________________
Believe those who seek the truth; doubt those who find it. -Andre Gide I am naive enough to believe that society will be changed by examination of ideas through books and the press, and that information can prove to be greater than the dissemination of stupidity - Dr. Seuss |
|
|
|
|
|
#20 |
|
formerly skeptigirl
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods
Posts: 19,317
|
Can someone explain to me what "retroactive intercessory prayer" is in the above study?
Quote:
Seriously. This is one bizarre paper. And the authors claim it's akin to knowing something works but not why it works. I'll be happy to explain to them why it worked. In this study they had a 50:50 chance of the prayer intervention being assigned to the half of the randomly generated group that randomly did better and they ran the test once. We have two groups, they differ in outcome by x. Now we toss a coin and the group that did better randomly gets assigned to the prayer intervention group. Now we declare prayer made the difference. For something like the above to be significant, it would have to be repeated many times. If it happened over and over, you'd need to explain why luck always fell with the prayed for group. I'd say this is evidence the p# needs to be reconsidered as to where significance is claimed. Was the expected difference by chance between these 2 randomized groups properly determined? |
|
__________________
Sk'p' 'el(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (**Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) |
|
|
|
|
|
#21 |
|
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 928
|
From the physorg.com link given on that article David R. Hodge is quoted to say;
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
#22 |
|
formerly skeptigirl
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods
Posts: 19,317
|
|
|
__________________
Sk'p' 'el(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (**Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) |
|
|
|
|
|
#23 |
|
formerly skeptigirl
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods
Posts: 19,317
|
|
|
__________________
Sk'p' 'el(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (**Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) |
|
|
|
|
|
#24 |
|
formerly skeptigirl
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods
Posts: 19,317
|
One of the comments from the physorg site from anonymous:
Quote:
|
|
__________________
Sk'p' 'el(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (**Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) |
|
|
|
|
|
#25 |
|
formerly skeptigirl
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods
Posts: 19,317
|
Well, just got Truthseeker's pdf. Thank you very much.
The above Onionesque study is indeed included. Can we say that might be a good reason to suspect the knowledge of the scientific process the Hodge study researchers possess? I'll see what else is in here. |
|
__________________
Sk'p' 'el(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (**Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) |
|
|
|
|
|
#26 |
|
formerly skeptigirl
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods
Posts: 19,317
|
Five studies, "not significant, trend favors prayer group"; five with "not significant results".
Can you find the glaring bias here? |
|
__________________
Sk'p' 'el(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (**Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) |
|
|
|
|
|
#27 |
|
formerly skeptigirl
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods
Posts: 19,317
|
Here's another study included I won't bother looking at,
Quote:
|
|
__________________
Sk'p' 'el(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (**Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) |
|
|
|
|
|
#28 |
|
formerly skeptigirl
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods
Posts: 19,317
|
To recap, we are left with 5 studies claimed as prospective, double blind, randomized controlled studies.
There were 10 studies with no significant effect, 5 supposedly fell on the significant side of not significant and 5 didn't. It isn't worth looking into what the authors claim indicates a favorable trend but if someone else wants to, be my guest. We have 1 studies that is absurd. Any legit researcher wouldn't have included that study. Claiming it is legit despite not knowing how it worked in that case is mind bogglingly stupid. Anyone with common sense can tell you why "it worked" and it wasn't because praying had anything to do with it. I would conclude the 26 born-agains that felt better when they knew they were prayed for and not when they were unaware of the prayer shows pretty clear placebo effect. By all means, send those born-agains with arthritis to church. Why not? So you end up with 11 studies against effect and 5 maybes, (I'll have to look), and at least one that shouldn't have been included. But so far, the meta-analysis is not looking too good. I might also mention the only study with a large sample was the one which prayed for the dead people. (I assume some of them were indeed dead 4 years after they were in the hospital with sepsis.) The total sample size left between the remaining 5 studies is 787. |
|
__________________
Sk'p' 'el(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (**Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) |
|
|
|
|
|
#29 |
|
formerly skeptigirl
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods
Posts: 19,317
|
Study #1 of 5, Byrd, 1988
Quote:
Quote:
|
|
__________________
Sk'p' 'el(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (**Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) |
|
|
|
|
|
#30 |
|
formerly skeptigirl
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods
Posts: 19,317
|
And, Csicop has weighed in on the Harris study (#2 of the 5 remaining studies with significant results).
Also, here. If you leave those 2 studies out, now you have 129 subjects left in the not so 'meta'-analysis. |
|
__________________
Sk'p' 'el(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (**Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) |
|
|
|
|
|
#31 |
|
formerly skeptigirl
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods
Posts: 19,317
|
Skepdic weighs in on #3 of the remaining 5.
This is sure saving time. ![]()
Quote:
Csicop on the Sicher, Targ study |
|
__________________
Sk'p' 'el(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (**Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) |
|
|
|
|
|
#32 |
|
formerly skeptigirl
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods
Posts: 19,317
|
No easy access to #4, Furlow and O'Quinn, published in the Spring 2002 issue of The Jnl of Christian Nursing. One needs a subscription. The abstract gives one a hint at how unscientific this journal is and the study involved 21 Christian cardiac patients.
Quote:
|
|
__________________
Sk'p' 'el(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (**Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) |
|
|
|
|
|
#33 |
|
formerly skeptigirl
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods
Posts: 19,317
|
Last one in the meta-analysis. Maybe praying for the sick is the wrong thing. God might just not like changing his mind after making people fall ill.
![]() Perhaps he/she responds better to requests for babies. I have posted the abstract and a few snips, but the whole article is at the link. Does Prayer Influence the Success of in Vitro Fertilization–Embryo Transfer? Report of a Masked, Randomized Trial; Kwang Y. Cha, M.D., Daniel P. Wirth, J.D., M.S., and Rogerio A. Lobo, M.D.
Quote:
Quote:
To be fair, this is the only study I found with valid results. But just as many studies which have gone before, there is a strong suggestion these results will not be consistently repeatable. Unless one hypothesizes a god doling out a fixed number of babies favoring those who are prayed for, then the fact there was on average the same fertility rate once a larger sample was compared to a control sample, even given only half the larger sample was prayed for, it still suggests random variation in the prayed for group has not been ruled out. |
|
__________________
Sk'p' 'el(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (**Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) |
|
|
|
|
|
#34 |
|
formerly skeptigirl
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods
Posts: 19,317
|
So much for the meta-analysis.
The usual wishful view through the tunnel. |
|
__________________
Sk'p' 'el(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (**Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) |
|
|
|
|
|
#35 |
|
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Mogollon Rim
Posts: 6,181
|
And how come all these wacky professors need to be from Arizona? Isn't it embarrassing enough to live here? Have they no pity that my tax dollars help support this kind of research? Surely there is a small school somewhere in Alaska or Vermont in need of instructors.
|
|
__________________
Space for rent |
|
|
|
|
|
#36 |
|
Increasing entropy since 1970
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: On the Clapham omnibus
Posts: 2,078
|
|
|
__________________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. I don't appeal to the masses, and they don't appeal to me. - Graham Parker Calling modern day fundamentalists medieval is giving them about a thousand years of philosophical advancement they do not have. - Jorghnassen |
|
|
|
|
|
#37 |
|
formerly skeptigirl
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods
Posts: 19,317
|
|
|
__________________
Sk'p' 'el(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (**Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) |
|
|
|
|
|
#38 |
|
formerly skeptigirl
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods
Posts: 19,317
|
If you find the links, let me know. I ran out of steam at the end of my rant.
I can't tell you how many prayer studies I have looked at after seeing the claims. None of them hold muster, none! So doing a meta-analysis when the critiques of these studies were easily found shows you how deluded believers are. We have another thread going about being about being Christian and a skeptic. This thread on prayer studies supports the conclusion people claiming both have a skeptic blind spot.
|
|
__________________
Sk'p' 'el(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (**Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) |
|
|
|
|
|
#39 |
|
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 928
|
|
|
|
|
|
#40 |
|
formerly skeptigirl
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods
Posts: 19,317
|
Hey, we're all in this together. I might not have even thought of positive bias if it weren't for what everyone else wrote.
|
|
__________________
Sk'p' 'el(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (**Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) |
|
|
|
![]() |
| Bookmarks |
| Thread Tools | |
|
|