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Tags 911 conspiracy theory , flight 77 , jdx , johndoex , rob balsamo

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Old 21st March 2007, 04:40 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by apathoid View Post
Put any aircraft into a 6000fpm dive, there will be lag on the altitude data..
Was Flt 77 in such a dive?

That's 100 fps. Forward velocity was said to be 500 MPH which is 733 fps
If 733 fps is taken to be velocity along the path of the aircraft

sine-1(100/733) = 7.84 degrees glide slope

If it is to be ground speed then
tan-1(100/733) = 7.76 degrees

I thought it came in at 4 degrees

I thought that the pressure altitude problem would be more that the air flow over the craft would be out of the parameters for certification due to its going well over Vmo and not due to its dropping too fast. (though certainly that would also cause a problem as per Mad(flt) Scientist's post.

The instruments were simply never designed to read properly at that altitude and while the aircraft was going that fast.

Last edited by jaydeehess; 21st March 2007 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 21st March 2007, 04:40 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
JDX's reluctance, or utter refusal, to consider my suggestion of a written paper on the issue of the FDR not matching the supposed flight path is puzzling.

His reluctance, or utter refusal to consider anything other than an audio only venue for debate on such a technical issue is also puzzling.

They give rise to speculation as to why.
Perhaps he will address these in the future but I am less hopeful with every exchange that he is sincere in his quest to get his messgae out to the public and to obtain a review of this matter and answers to his questions, from the NTSB or FBI.

I will , when I have time, go to the faa.gov website and check the Flight Training Handbook that jdx has directed me to. He instructs me that this is all that is needed in order to understand fully the FDR data even without the Data Frame Layout. (I only have 8 minutes left on my lunch break right now)
I think he is trying to talk down to you. I think he is saying to understand the terms and stuff you need the FIH. It is free, and you can download it and tons of stuff on flying. But I do not recall FDR information you want in the FIH.

The FDR data is used by the NTSB to help figure out what happen to make planes and flight safer. The USAF did not have FDRs in planes, that is changing, so they had to study accidents based on what ever was seen or left over. The NTSB uses both the FDR data and any evidence they can find.

The FDR in the NTSB video was just raw flight data. It was not referenced with real position data; to my knowledge. In fact the only position data the NTSB decoded was off by 20 miles. But with a heading, speed, attitude, roll angles, pitich angles, yaw angles, acceleration, altitude, you can make a video and path based on time and speed etc. That is what the NTSB did. They included the Pentagon area but it was not in registratoin with the "real" flight path of 77.

JDX decoded data that has a position but is is off by 3000 feet and varies in direction. This nav data is from the INS system and 3000 feet is a good normal error without GPS. JDX also has a VOR/DME of 1.5 from the DCA VOR. This puts the position of 77 on one of infinite postions on a circle from DCA. You could use the heading which I have to say is one of the most accurate pieces of the FDR data you have. You have 4 versions to pick from and each one confirms the data of 9/11. The four headings can be used to confirm the wind on 9/11 at the times and places and attitude 77 flew. The headings will place 77 on tow points on that big 1.5 NM circle. 1.5 NM is 9000 plus feet, there are 6076 feet in a NM. You can see google earth and thus position flight 77 in a location ready to hit the Pentagon within 3000 or so feet of impact. But you still have errors in being this exact. Time, what time was the data collected and stored. The DME data is not stored every second. Was the data from the first part of a second or was it all flushed from registers loaded at the same time? AS talks about data and how it is loaded and possible errors in data storage.

The plane is not too high to hit anything because with the FDR you can not tell anyone where the plane is and how much data is missing.

Normally the accident information you want happens before the big impact on the FDR! So no one cares if 5 or 8 seconds of data are missing, the cause of the accident is recorded and the rest of the data is just an out of control mess.

I look at the FDR and it confirms the wind form about 330 degrees at 5 to 10 knots. This is why the plane was heading 70 degreees but the ground track was 71.4 degrees, the plane was being blown sideways. I have now the FDR confirming the WX reports saved and looked up by JDX. Thank you JDX. Yes truthers always have some facts but not to support their ideas. That is a 61.2 true track and a true heading of 58.8 true heading.

The FDR is a bunch of data you can use to confirm what people saw. They saw a plane in a slight bank, it is on the FDR. Wings rocking, it is on the FDR. You could line up the witnesses and see the plane do it on the FDR.

People saw a steep approach! Yes a normal approach for an airplane is nose up 2.5 degree flight path down. 77 had 6 degrees down flight path and nose down. I would call that steep, and if you land that way so will you!

I look at the FDR as confirmation of 77 and what it did. I have not found anything in it to keep 77 from doing what it did.

JDX has a 273 radar altimeter, which if the plane is on heading about 3000 feet or more away from the Pentagon, that is just 400 feet above sea level and not very hard to hit the Pentagon as it did. This RADALT, does show that the pressure atltimeter may have been off by 80 feet, but then the plane was doing 463 KIAS and it is not suppose to go over 350KCAS. It was out of the normal operating range.

The FIH helps you understand flying, becareful if you read it you will be ahead of JDX.
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Old 21st March 2007, 04:51 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
sine-1(100/733) = 7.84 degrees glide slope

If it is to be ground speed then
tan-1(100/733) = 7.76 degrees

I thought it came in at 4 degree


You are being somewhat overly precise. It varies a fair amount. For example, the pitch angle of the plane (which isn't quite the number you want)... varies from like -8.5 to -4 during the last 10 seconds or so of recorded data.
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Old 21st March 2007, 05:05 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
Was Flt 77 in such a dive?

That's 100 fps. Forward velocity was said to be 500 MPH which is 733 fps
If 733 fps is taken to be velocity along the path of the aircraft

sine-1(100/733) = 7.84 degrees glide slope

If it is to be ground speed then
tan-1(100/733) = 7.76 degrees

I thought it came in at 4 degrees

I thought that the pressure altitude problem would be more that the air flow over the craft would be out of the parameters for certification due to its going well over Vmo and not due to its dropping too fast. (though certainly that would also cause a problem as per Mad(flt) Scientist's post.

The instruments were simply never designed to read properly at that altitude and while the aircraft was going that fast.
Pilots use some extimates like the 60 to 1 rule.

Take the 600 feet and you would have 50 feet lost at 5 degrees. It works for small angles. 60 to 1. If you are 60 miles away and one degree off course you are 1 mile off course.

Your 100 feet per second, at 733 feet per second is about 8 degrees using a quick 60 to 1 rule.

But the real formula works great and the pitch angle on the FDR may not be the angle the plane makes in space.
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Old 21st March 2007, 05:30 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Anti-sophist View Post
You are being somewhat overly precise. It varies a fair amount. For example, the pitch angle of the plane (which isn't quite the number you want)... varies from like -8.5 to -4 during the last 10 seconds or so of recorded data.

Point taken. The calcs I did would be only for the short time that the aircraft was doing those exact rates of course.

Yes, I know that an 8 degree desent would be steep. I used to (25 years ago) do the PM's and repair on ILS systems and other nav-aids.

DME are accurate to within 1/10 nautical mile so that gives another source of error to the position data.(I worked on DME/VOR and TACAN as well)

I do also understand the idea of the time lag in having the parameters recorded on the FDR and that the FDR's main function is to illustrate what occured to when an aircraft leaves normal flight and not so much to accurately record the non-standard flight up to the crash.

It would be interesting to compare this FDR with those of aircraft that crashed at high speeds and out of control such as the Air Alaska aircraft that crashed due to a broken shaft in the tail trim or horz. stabilizer(I forget which-same result)
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Old 21st March 2007, 05:47 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
I look at the FDR and it confirms the wind form about 330 degrees at 5 to 10 knots. This is why the plane was heading 70 degreees but the ground track was 71.4 degrees, the plane was being blown sideways. I have now the FDR confirming the WX reports saved and looked up by JDX. Thank you JDX. Yes truthers always have some facts but not to support their ideas. That is a 61.2 true track and a true heading of 58.8 true heading.
Speaking of the true track, one might ask themselves how that lines up with the damage..






...pretty well as you can see, and far better than I expected. All I did here was insert placemarks over each of the downed poles and the impact area, took a screen cap, then rotated the canvas exactly 61.2 degrees in photoshop, used the selection box to draw a perfectly straight line over the impact placemark, and cropped. At least they managed to fake something right.
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Last edited by apathoid; 21st March 2007 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 22nd March 2007, 12:02 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Anti-sophist View Post
Beachnut and apathoid know more about that particular instrument then I do. There is no question that the plane's velocity and low altitude provided a combination that no altimeter is checked for accuracy in.
That's essentially what I thought.

Apathoid came along later in the thread and addressed one of the followup points I was wondering about; Instrument lag. Though to be honest the particular ones I had in mind were inertial lag in the compass and lag in the heading (pitch and yaw in aviation terms, I think) measurements.

(I think it's pretty clear that the magnetic vs. true north systematic would dominate any statistical or environmental/callibration error in the compass reading - but that's an easy one to check)

I was wondering if just the various systematic errors in both time and measurement of the various instruments would be enough to invalidate various truther's conclusions about the FDR data being faked/too high/off course to hit the Pentagon even without knowing the FDR frame layout.

Without knowing either the operating parameters of the instruments, nor their accuracy within said parameters, I'm guessing (unless there's some known large systematic error in the altitude measurements at high speeds/low altitudes) that the answer is no; unfortunately it's not enough.

(Of course, since pseudoscientists rarely know anything about errors except possibly how to abuse statistics, I'm pretty sure an error analysis based debunking would go right over their heads anyway)
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Old 22nd March 2007, 01:36 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post
That's essentially what I thought.

Apathoid came along later in the thread and addressed one of the followup points I was wondering about; Instrument lag. Though to be honest the particular ones I had in mind were inertial lag in the compass and lag in the heading (pitch and yaw in aviation terms, I think) measurements.

(I think it's pretty clear that the magnetic vs. true north systematic would dominate any statistical or environmental/callibration error in the compass reading - but that's an easy one to check)

I was wondering if just the various systematic errors in both time and measurement of the various instruments would be enough to invalidate various truther's conclusions about the FDR data being faked/too high/off course to hit the Pentagon even without knowing the FDR frame layout.

Without knowing either the operating parameters of the instruments, nor their accuracy within said parameters, I'm guessing (unless there's some known large systematic error in the altitude measurements at high speeds/low altitudes) that the answer is no; unfortunately it's not enough.

(Of course, since pseudoscientists rarely know anything about errors except possibly how to abuse statistics, I'm pretty sure an error analysis based debunking would go right over their heads anyway)
Modern compass systems work very well. The plane system must meet check point accuracy and the pilot will not accept more than 4 degrees of error between aircraft systems or ground check points. The compass heading at the end of the flight should be right on. You can check the take off heading to be lined up with the actual runway heading. The FDR should read the exact track of the mag heading for take off.

Runway 30 is 301 magnetic, 291 true, FDR reads 300.2 and 300.6, so the compass on take off was real close to 301 magnetic heading.

The planes top speed was 350KCAS, and the terrorist were doing 463KIAS. The pressure altimeter could be off.

Based on the radar altimeter and the best guess on aircraft location at that point the aircraft atltitude was about 400 feet msl if you take 273 radar reading and add 130 from the ground elevation. The best guess based on the FDR data for the aicraft location is the around the red dot area below, for the last data that JDX has.


Near this red point. There is still 2800 feet to go and no more FDR data. The altimeter here would say 500 feet, but the radar altimeter plus the ground would be 400 feet. Looks like the pressure altimeter is off by 100. You are talking about a system who is +-75 feet in the first place. Here you have a plane going 25 pecent past its top speed. I have no information on what the pitot static system errors are and no one else beside Boeing would know. Some aero majors could make some educated stabs with reasons for errors.

Last edited by beachnut; 22nd March 2007 at 02:21 AM.
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Old 22nd March 2007, 01:49 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Modern compass systems work very well.
Ugh. Shoulda done one more round of editing/proofreading.

The analogy I had in mind was the inertial lag on an old style hand held cub-scout magnetic compass - which is little more than a magnet floating in a sealed disk filled with water.
(Ten years ago I worked with some solid-state accelerometers and tiltometers. The accelerometers turned out to be useless for us; there was a slight lag time characteristic of them (I don't remember the details). One of the natural harmonic periods in the system turned out to be too close to a mutiple of the measurement lag.)
I don't know what the state of the art is with respect to avionics equipment, but I am assuming that at extremes outside the normal operating parameters that there are some very large systematics in the measurments.

I'm totally guessing about systematics (what else other than lag? A high pressure front causing a 'prepulse' type effect?) in time.
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Old 22nd March 2007, 05:35 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post
I'm totally guessing about systematics (what else other than lag? A high pressure front causing a 'prepulse' type effect?) in time.
http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/PSSI.htm
http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/PSI.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitot-static_system

To answer your question in a shorter way, there are at least two kinds of error. Hysterisis (or transient error) is what we typically talk about when we say "lag". This error causes a lag that keeps the altimeter from 'keeping up' with the plane during rapid changes. There would also be some steady-state (or positional) error. This is the error that exists once you give the altimeter time to "level-off" and catch up with a plane who's altitude isn't changing.
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Old 22nd March 2007, 06:10 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post
That's essentially what I thought.

Apathoid came along later in the thread and addressed one of the followup points I was wondering about; Instrument lag. Though to be honest the particular ones I had in mind were inertial lag in the compass and lag in the heading (pitch and yaw in aviation terms, I think) measurements.

(I think it's pretty clear that the magnetic vs. true north systematic would dominate any statistical or environmental/callibration error in the compass reading - but that's an easy one to check)

I was wondering if just the various systematic errors in both time and measurement of the various instruments would be enough to invalidate various truther's conclusions about the FDR data being faked/too high/off course to hit the Pentagon even without knowing the FDR frame layout.

Without knowing either the operating parameters of the instruments, nor their accuracy within said parameters, I'm guessing (unless there's some known large systematic error in the altitude measurements at high speeds/low altitudes) that the answer is no; unfortunately it's not enough.

(Of course, since pseudoscientists rarely know anything about errors except possibly how to abuse statistics, I'm pretty sure an error analysis based debunking would go right over their heads anyway)
There isn't gonna be any appreciable lag in most modern flight instrument systems(air data notwithstanding). For example, the compass system and attitude reference system of the 757 consists of 3 ring laser gyros, one for each axis, that compute the difference of arrival of two helium-neon lasers and sends that resultant error signal to the Electronic Flight Instrument symbol generators for display. If there is delay, it's in the milli/micro-second range. Since the Air Data Computer still relies on pneumatic inputs, which are subject to source errors like turbulent airflow and which have to travel through over 10 yards of plumbing, lag is inevitable.

As far as the maximum static error within the flight envelope, it depends on the altitude as well as the airspeed. When we test for 350+ kts of airspeed, the altitude has to be simulated at 30,000+ ft. I'd have to double check, but I believe the static error is +/- 125 ft at the highest tested airspeed. Since we don't test the static system at low altitude/high speed, I cannot even guess what the margin for error is and I'd imagine that very few people can make an educated guess. You'd have to consider aerodynamics past the flight tested speeds, the ADCs density compensation outside of the design range as well as the overall predicted lag at vertical speeds and forward speeds much high than the design limit.
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Old 30th March 2007, 02:39 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
jdx has replied to my second post in that thread.
As expected:


It appears I am banned.

,,, and I never even questioned his findings about the FDR. All I did was suggest a new tact for getting his message out.

Freedom of speech, Rob Balsamo style. Quench even the hint of dissent.
Not sure why he thought I was JAStewart.
I am registerd there as JAStewart :P

just shows his attention to detail
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Old 30th March 2007, 03:14 AM   #93
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Gravy: Your (and others in your group) whole life seems to be dedicated to battle us truthers.
At the same time you compare us with ufo fantasists, bigfooters and moonhoaxers etc.

I think we have a discrepancy here. Because I suppose you're not going after the bigfooters?

Perhaps, our "illusions" are more dangerous? Our actions can actually stop the war in the ME and the coming attack on Iran? And you and your comrades don't like that?

You want the Americans to keep the war going, to secure the oil supply or whatever?
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Old 30th March 2007, 03:33 AM   #94
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You JAQing off again pagan?
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Old 30th March 2007, 03:36 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by uk_dave View Post
You JAQing off again pagan?
Yep, did you cum too?
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Old 30th March 2007, 03:44 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by pagan View Post
Gravy: Your (and others in your group) whole life seems to be dedicated to battle us truthers.
At the same time you compare us with ufo fantasists, bigfooters and moonhoaxers etc.

I think we have a discrepancy here. Because I suppose you're not going after the bigfooters?

Perhaps, our "illusions" are more dangerous? Our actions can actually stop the war in the ME and the coming attack on Iran? And you and your comrades don't like that?

You want the Americans to keep the war going, to secure the oil supply or whatever?
Whole life? Unlike most troofers, we do have other priorities in life, but many of us rational folk find your unsubstantiated claims and your carelessness in accusing others of mass murder with not a jot of evidence extremely distasteful.

The Cters for bigfoot, the moon landing hoax, and 911 are all fantasists. Where 911 differs is you accuse people of murder with no evidence. You accuse family members of the victims of lying about receiving the last phone calls from thier loved ones with no evidence; you accuse the first responders of being complicit in 911 and without evidence.

And on being dangerous: there are many in the twoof movement that are extremely radical. If they could, they'd lynch the bush administration in a heart beat. All in the name of freedom and justice and without a shred of evidence.

In their minds they have already proven and convicted the evil doers. No amount of evidence to the contrary matters; all that matters is when they get to carry out the sentence.

Go listen to Alex Jones's radio show sometime. He is clearly insane... and he is not an exception within the movement.
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Old 30th March 2007, 03:58 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Rawkarma View Post
Whole life? Unlike most troofers, we do have other priorities in life, but many of us rational folk find your unsubstantiated claims and your carelessness in accusing others of mass murder with not a jot of evidence extremely distasteful.

The Cters for bigfoot, the moon landing hoax, and 911 are all fantasies. Where 911 differs if you accuse people of muder with no evidence. You accuse family members of the victims of lying about receiving the last phone calls from thier loved ones with no evidence. You accuse the first responders of being complicit in 911 and without evidence.

And on being dangerous: there are many in the twoof movement that are extremely radical. If they could, they'd lynch the bush administration in a heart beat. All in the name of freedom and justice and without a shred of evidence.

In their minds they have already proven and convicted the evil doers. No amount of evidence to the contrary matters; all that matters is when they get to carry out the sentence.

Go listen to Alex Jones's radio show sometime. He is clearly inane, and he is not an exception within the movement.

You are again using the victims in your battle against us. This is extemely dishonest. Remember the "Victim families steering committe, who pushed for a real investigation.
They are on our side, they want to know the truth. What do you say about this site:
http://patriotsquestion911.com/survivors.html

We sure want the Bush adm on trial. We don't want to lynch them before the trial. Well, hmm... maybe after the trial?

Alex Jones? I wouldn't call him insane. While, not being a personal favourite of mine. He is doing a lot of good work for 911 truth. Alex is not typical for the truth movement. He is unique.
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Old 30th March 2007, 04:13 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by pagan View Post
You are again using the victims in your battle against us. This is extemely dishonest. Remember the "Victim families steering committe, who pushed for a real investigation.
They are on our side, they want to know the truth. What do you say about this site:
http://patriotsquestion911.com/survivors.html

We sure want the Bush adm on trial. We don't want to lynch them before the trial. Well, hmm... maybe after the trial?

Alex Jones? I wouldn't call him insane. While, not being a personal favourite of mine. He is doing a lot of good work for 911 truth. Alex is not typical for the truth movement. He is unique.
It's extremely dishonest when you dodge questions.

Do you agree that Cters for bigfoot, the moon landing hoax, and 911 differ? I won't say in being fantasists, as you clearly believe otherwise, but in how your movement accuses people of mass murder and without evidence?

Does your movement accuse family members of the victims of lying about receiving phone calls on 9/11?

Does your movement accuse the first responders of being complicit in 911?

"Alex Jones? I wouldn't call him insane. While, not being a personal favourite of mine. He is doing a lot of good work for 911 truth. Alex is not typical for the truth movement. He is unique."

Alex Jones is a raving lunatic. You need to listen to his show more and without your tin hat on.

And I agree with you in that Alex Jones is doing alot of good for your movement, but in this regard: He is showing rational people how radicalized your movement has become.

Alex is not typical for the truth movement?

That's another one right there. Its in keeping with your mindset and your love of fantasies pagan -- I can't really expect you to view it any other way.

Like, rationally.
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Old 30th March 2007, 04:54 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by pagan View Post
Gravy: Your (and others in your group) whole life seems to be dedicated to battle us truthers.
At the same time you compare us with ufo fantasists, bigfooters and moonhoaxers etc.

I think we have a discrepancy here.

No, we just have a normal pagan lie here. Rational adults know that if you have to lie to support your arguments, there's something wrong with your arguments.


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Old 30th March 2007, 04:55 AM   #100
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I know JDX has declined to have anything but a telephone debate, however the Holocaustsphere, or whattyawannacallit, had a debate were both sides actually agreed how to go about it. It was fascinating to follow, with multiple participants on both teams. Worth a look imho:

http://p102.ezboard.com/The-Scholars...odohforumfrm23

It would be very interesting to see such a debate for the 911-ummm..sphere. Using the same rules and procedures, it could actually be a huge debate.

Cheers,
S

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Old 30th March 2007, 05:25 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by pagan View Post
Our actions can actually stop the war in the ME and the coming attack on Iran? And you and your comrades don't like that?

You want the Americans to keep the war going, to secure the oil supply or whatever?
In fact, the TM is of some benefit to GWB. The stupidity of the theories is so obvious, that it has pretty well prevented any serious investigation into the failings of 9/11.

I once facetiously suggested that the entire TM was set up by the Bush administration as a smokescreen. I don't really believe it, but it certainly serves a purpose for them.
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Old 30th March 2007, 05:51 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by westprog View Post
In fact, the TM is of some benefit to GWB.
You got that right. While I'll bet very few people have been converted to activists against the Bush administration by the "truth" movement, many people who are predisposed against Bush have kept themselves from doing anything productive about that because they're spending countless hours hunting squibs and reading works of fantasy written by fools. What a waste.
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Old 30th March 2007, 06:01 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
No, we just have a normal pagan lie here. Rational adults know that if you have to lie to support your arguments, there's something wrong with your arguments.

From the CT viewpoint, though, getting the "truth" out is so important that they can't be bothered with puny ethical considerations such as whether the "truth" is true or not.

No, don't try and figure it out. It takes a special sort of mind.
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Old 30th March 2007, 06:09 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
You got that right. While I'll bet very few people have been converted to activists against the Bush administration by the "truth" movement, many people who are predisposed against Bush have kept themselves from doing anything productive about that because they're spending countless hours hunting squibs and reading works of fantasy written by fools. What a waste.
If nothing else, the CT's have muddied the waters sufficiently that there is much less prospect of a coherent investigation into how 911 came to happen. That is their only real achievement.
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Old 30th March 2007, 06:14 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by pagan View Post
Gravy: Your (and others in your group) whole life seems to be dedicated to battle us truthers.
At the same time you compare us with ufo fantasists, bigfooters and moonhoaxers etc.

I think we have a discrepancy here. Because I suppose you're not going after the bigfooters?

Perhaps, our "illusions" are more dangerous? Our actions can actually stop the war in the ME and the coming attack on Iran? And you and your comrades don't like that?

You want the Americans to keep the war going, to secure the oil supply or whatever?
So to you- it's strictly "ends justify the means"? Even if your theories are wacky, unsubstantiated, bull crap- you're against the war and that's noble?

Skipping an entire argument and just arriving at the conclusion- only to say your "evidence" and position is irrelevant... that sort of shines a gigantic spotlight on your bias.
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Old 30th March 2007, 06:23 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by westprog View Post
If nothing else, the CT's have muddied the waters sufficiently that there is much less prospect of a coherent investigation into how 911 came to happen. That is their only real achievement.
Indeed, although allow me to suggest "another coherent investigation" as being more accurate.
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Old 30th March 2007, 06:34 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Indeed, although allow me to suggest "another coherent investigation" as being more accurate.
I think the investigation as to how the hijackings took place, how the buildings collapsed, and how Al-Quaeda are operating was coherent, useful and correct.

What is less clear is how CIA support for the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan helped the rise of militant Islam. How the Israelis promoted the rise of Hamas and Islamism to subvert the PLO. How the support of the USA for the corrupt Saudi regime led Osama to see them as his primary enemy once the Soviets left Afghanistan.

These are all fuzzy, tricky issues, and they span many years. There is nothing obvious there - I certainly don't know if all the points I made are valid, or what weight to attach to them. I do know that they are far more interesting areas for investigation than exactly how WTC7 came to collapse.
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Old 30th March 2007, 06:57 AM   #108
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I agree, westprog. Those are the questions I'd most like to see answered. I'd love to have a look at the 28 redacted pages in the Joint Intelligence Committee report, which may have more to say about US-Saudi relations than either government is comfortable with. I wonder how much of such a foreign policy* investigation could or would be allowed to see the light of day and how much would be classified as national security secrets.

*(And domestic, since energy policy is related.)
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Old 30th March 2007, 07:44 AM   #109
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It is intersting seeing JDX disavow any claims about the Pentagon he made in the past when it comes to an upcoming debate. Note how he makes sure to get Gravy's claim set in stone.

The reason is simple, by having Gravy claim that the plane hit the Pentagon and JDX making no claims, it falls on Gravy to prove his claim, not on JDX to prove anything else.

It is much easier to poke holes in someone else's claim than to prove your own. Basic debate tactic and clearly JDX wants Gravy on the defensive rather than himself having to defend his own claims.

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Old 30th March 2007, 08:01 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Lurker View Post
It is intersting seeing JDX disavow any claims about the Pentagon he made in the past when it comes to an upcoming debate. Note how he makes sure to get Gravy's claim set in stone.

The reason is simple, by having Gravy claim that the plane hit the Pentagon and JDX making no claims, it falls on Gravy to prove his claim, not on JDX to prove anything else.

It is much easier to poke holes in someone else's claim than to prove your own. Basic debate tactic and clearly JDX wants Gravy on the defensive rather than himself having to defend his own claims.

Lurker
A very valid point. Which explains why so many truthers are so afraid of actually commiting to a theory of their own. Instead they hide behind the "Im just asking questions" -shield.

/S
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Old 30th March 2007, 09:24 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
I agree, westprog. Those are the questions I'd most like to see answered. I'd love to have a look at the 28 redacted pages in the Joint Intelligence Committee report, which may have more to say about US-Saudi relations than either government is comfortable with. I wonder how much of such a foreign policy* investigation could or would be allowed to see the light of day and how much would be classified as national security secrets.

*(And domestic, since energy policy is related.)

The irritating thing is that the CT's really aren't interested in any of that stuff. Things that might really catch out the government, or justify their actions, aren't even on the radar. It's massive self-deception as to what is and what isn't relevant.
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Old 30th March 2007, 10:52 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by pagan View Post
Gravy: Your (and others in your group) whole life seems to be dedicated to battle us truthers.
At the same time you compare us with ufo fantasists, bigfooters and moonhoaxers etc.

I think we have a discrepancy here. Because I suppose you're not going after the bigfooters?

Perhaps, our "illusions" are more dangerous? Our actions can actually stop the war in the ME and the coming attack on Iran? And you and your comrades don't like that?

You want the Americans to keep the war going, to secure the oil supply or whatever?
This is about 9/11 CT. You must of missed the anti war forum. This is about JDX who also is void of fact like you on 9/11. Wrong thread, wrong forum, still no facts. Thank you
Quote:
Our actions can actually stop the war in the ME and the coming attack on Iran?
No, idiots making up lies about 9/11 can not stop the war. They can just look dumb. (you should go to Iraq and protest the people blowing up their own people; but then you are just a CTer with no facts, not an action man, a talk man)

Last edited by beachnut; 30th March 2007 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 30th March 2007, 10:56 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Lurker View Post
It is intersting seeing JDX disavow any claims about the Pentagon he made in the past when it comes to an upcoming debate. .
On P4T I have witnessed on several occassions, a poster refer to CT theories that were expressed on the P4T forums only to have jdx basically respond that P4T makes no claim of a theory. This seems to be done in order to attempt to shut down any non-CT arguement. jdx does not make the same response to theories put forth by anyone who is a CT. The prime example is jdx's reluctance(actually I have never witnessed at all) to rein in one George Hayduke, who does indeed post some far fetched senarios that he declares are true.
JDX has never objected to anyone, for instance, claiming that the damage to the Pentagon is consistent with a missile. I even pointed out how the adamage is inconsistent with any missile theory. I was then attacked by jdx who said that real evidence is examining the FDR. No mention by jdx that Geo.H. offered no plausible evidence.
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Old 30th March 2007, 10:57 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by pagan View Post
<<Snip cheeseless whine...>>>
I think we have a discrepancy here. Because I suppose you're not going after the bigfooters?

Perhaps, our "illusions" are more dangerous? Our actions can actually stop the war in the ME and the coming attack on Iran? And you and your comrades don't like that?

<Snip Straw>?
Oh, we do
That's a wholly different forum...
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Old 30th March 2007, 06:03 PM   #115
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It's good to see even the LC admins can see what JDX is up to:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=6390
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Old 30th March 2007, 08:09 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Obviousman View Post
It's good to see even the LC admins can see what JDX is up to:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=6390

Could you be more specific for those of us bad, bad people whose IP addresses are banned from veiwing LC.
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Old 30th March 2007, 08:37 PM   #117
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Okay... JDX conversation with IVXX:

Quote:
Quote:
(Rob Balsamo @ Mar 29 2007, 05:56 PM)
IVXX,

I'll just ask these questions once here since you didnt reply to them via email or IM.

Why are you letting Russ lie about my return to these forums?
Well Rob like you I'd rather not get "roped" into BS either but I will answer the questions.

First. Russ isn't lying about your return to the the forums. If he objected for any reason you wouldn't be here.

Quote:
(Rob)

Why havent you told him that you invited me back and that i told you i would be better off staying banned as i dont want to get roped into the infighting?

I haven't told him I invited you back cause that is not true. The way it happen was I received a PM from Merc asking if we could unban your account. I told him I had to ask Dylan since it was Dylan who ban you in the first place. Dylan agreed so it was Dylan who invited you back. Yes I was the "bridge" but it wasn't my place to invite you back. Again though if there was objection from Russell the ban wouldn't have been lifted.

Quote:
(Rob)

Why did you tell me that the infighting would stop yet then let Russ make thread after thread saying "we have an agenda to take down these forums"?
First I don't let Russ do anything just like he doesn't let me do anything. I told you the infighting has to stop cause it does. Answering some direct questions could easily help put this to rest. However when the questions are asked be it by Russell or another user they are meet with attacks and the answers dodged. I'm sure you can see how this would lead to frustration for some users.

Quote:
(Rob)

Why did you and Quest come to us to try and mend wounds and let by-gones be by-gones when you are letting Russ continue his ****-stirring?
Quest may have "come to you" but I didn't. I have always been approached be it by email or PM from you, Merc or Lyte. Also again I'm not letting Russell do anything.

Quote:
(Rob)

We have work to do and i dont feel like getting roped into the BS that goes on over here.

Yet you continue to post here. I said it in another thread and I'll say it here. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head to post here. If you don't like this forum or the admins, don't post here. Easy enough don't you think??

Quote:
(Rob)

Those who lived through the last forum debacle, know the truth.

Click For Truth
All statements from those respected individuals who lived through it are there.
And for every statement there I can get another one that knows the truth completely different.

Quote:
(Rob)

Our only agenda is to expose govt lies. We have disseminated some of our analysis here. I apologize if that upsets some people. It is clear others have an agenda other than exposing govt lies.

Some here just have questions about the analysis and evidence posted here but when they ask those question they don't receive answers. I apologize for people actually expecting answers to their questions.

What it boils down to Rob is just many people besides RP ask questions and either get attacked or are told the answer doesn't matter for some reason. The questions asked are very important and will be asked sooner or later by someone. I posted this in another thread but will post it here as well. I give kudos and props to all who are investigating in whatever way. However I will ask the questions that any analysis or evidence brings up to me. I have even questioned Dylan on points in LC.

I said this in a PM to Lyte but I believe it's important enough to post publicly. Dylan is not controlled by Russell and that is an out and out insult to Dylan no matter who says it. The truth of the matter is I have had way more input on LC:FC and talk to Dylan way more than Russell does. There is also no "cheerleading" for Dylan coming from me, which I have been accused of. Dylan asked me to be an admin and has giving me an inside look at LC:FC and I have thanked him for his trust in me. However and Dylan can confirm this. I tell Dylan what I feel needs to be said. He asks my opinion a lot and I don't tell him what I think he wants to hear. I tell him what he needs to hear no matter what the issue. My interest is in the truth and the good of LC and these forums.

That all being said, I still believe the infighting is poitless and counterproductive.
then later...

Quote:
Quote:
(Rob Balsamo @ Mar 29 2007, 07:17 PM)
IVXX,

just one more question.

Do you think us professionals should ignore this FDR information? Do you think we should not pursue the govt based on this information? Do you feel you have a better grasp of this information than us? (ok.. so thats technically 3)
No I don't think the FDR should be ignored and yes the gov't should be pursued based on the infomation. Could you point out once where I said I feel I have a better grasp??

Quote:
(Rob)

Bottom line folks, your name is not on this information. .so stop fighting it.
Asking questions is not "fighting it".

Quote:
(Rob)

We dont have time to give you a full course in aviation (although i have supplied many links for people). Many of the questions have been asked and answered. Some people have a habit of asking the same thing over and over again that has already been answered. Some people do have a comprehension problem and perhaps a learning disorder (not an attack, that is fact)

The fact is there is still many unanswered questions. Questions that aren't even answered with speculation.

Quote:
(Rob)

So with that said, dont worry about the FDR information, your name isnt on it. The people who understand it are taking care of it. But fight it if you wish.. You will not stop us..
Again no one is fighting it. Asking questions is not fighting it. Also no one is try to stop you so get over it.

Quote:
(Rob)

Ask yourself.. why are so many people here fighting the work of the P4T and CIT when the pople who are fighting this work dont even have their name on it, nor are they pursuing the govt for answers based on it.. .all they do is fight the information. They're entitled. Whatever floats their boat i guess... Have at it..
Again no one is frighting your work, they are asking questions. You have to ask yourself, why is asking questions be labeled as fighting??
More to come...
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Old 30th March 2007, 08:48 PM   #118
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I love it, JDX is pissed off at CTist "just asking questions"

JDX, you are the best thing we having to fight the tin hat CTists. I would like to personally thank you for personifying the intellectual dishonesty and moral bankruptcy that is the "truth movement". You are doing more to expose the the "truth movement" for it's dishonesty, hypocrisy and self serving ego trips then JREF ever could.

Thank You JDX.
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Old 30th March 2007, 08:48 PM   #119
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JDX doesn't like being stood up too....

Originally Posted by JDX
Originally Posted by (IVXX @ Mar 29 2007, 08:11 PM)
Originally Posted by (Rob Balsamo @ Mar 29 2007, 08:02 PM)
IVXX, (or Russ).

Delete my account please.

Thank you.
Your account won't be deleted. If you don't want to post here, then don't. It's called will power and self control.

Originally Posted by (Rob)

Those who have serious questions that havent already been answered know where to find us.

Most, if not all, answers can be found on our forums for those who are motivated to do the research and not be spoon fed.

I could run down a list of serious questions that have not been answered but since you left I won't. Plus they've been asked before and remain unanswered. No one is being spoon fed Rob. The fact that they ask questions proves that.
lol.. they ban me twice.. IVXX IM's me and tells me im unbanned. I ask him to keep me banned as i dont feel like getting roped into the infighting. He tells me the infighting will stop.

Russ attacks us saying we 'have an agenda', that we are 'vindictive and manipulating' in several threads. I post here in defense even though IVXX knows i dont want to get roped into this stuff.

I request to have the account deleted as to not be tempted by this BS (i agree with self-control, but its kinda hard not to engage when constant attacks and lies are allowed to be posted here and my account is still active).

If you IVXX admin this forum from an unbiased position, if you source your claims, and if you actually read the information i had asked you to, perhaps this forum would be more a pleasure to post. Therefore, since you will not respect a request of one of your members, i will do the best i can to stop posting here. If the attacks from Russ continue, we will take further steps.


However, as to Russ's questions...

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...ost&p=12847500
the reply:

Originally Posted by IVXX
Originally Posted by (Rob Balsamo @ Mar 29 2007, 08:24 PM)
If you IVXX admin this forum from an unbiased position, if you source your claims, and if you actually read the information i had asked you to, perhaps this forum would be more a pleasure to post. Therefore, since you will not respect a request of one of your members, i will do the best i can to stop posting here. If the attacks from Russ continue, we will take further steps.
OK Rob I will delete your account cause it seems you won't be able to stop posting here by yourself. Putting Russell aside for a moment. Even questions from other users get twisted and deemed attacks. These are legit question that deserve an answers. If the answer is not known do not accuse the person asking of attacking just say the answer is unknown.

Threat noted, however empty it may be.
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Old 30th March 2007, 10:01 PM   #120
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Yeah, it becomes ever more clear that I was never going to get anywhere with jdx unless and only if I left my intellect at the door and proclaimed my absolute acceptance of all of his claims.

,,,,, and this guy wonders why no one wants a verbal debate with him. He regards any questioning of his work as a personal attack.
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