Magnetic Therapy

[Fnord]

Have you seen this MSN article?

Magnetic Therapy -- by Rich Maloof
(Who lives in Brooklyn, New York. He specializes in health topics, music and children’s literature. He has written for CNN, Yahoo!, Billboard and the “For Dummies” book series.)

Key points:

"Magnets may have healing potential similar to acupuncture needles."

"If magnetic therapy does work, wearing a bracelet is probably not an adequate application."

"Few studies have controlled the parameters that would offer solid proof. "

"Magnets sure do have a polarizing effect."

Discuss.

[~enigma~]

Originally Posted by Fnord

Have you seen this MSN article?"Magnets sure do have a polarizing effect."

Really????

Wouldn't that mean when you get an MRI your blood flow is aided and you get an extreme flush and quite a drop in blood volume in your heart? Maybe we should outlaw MRI machines now...

[tsg]

Quote:

Magnets may have healing potential similar to acupuncture needles.

In other words, none at all.

Quote:

“I tend to think of magnets as potentially working through the same mechanisms as acupuncture: Not with a dramatic change or a magic bullet, but by kind of ‘nudging’ the body back towards health,” she says.

You mean, kind of like what would happen if you did nothing?

Quote:

Says Colbert, “There’s a lot of skepticism and fear about magnet therapy, and I don’t know why.

Because people are selling them claiming they can do what they apparently don't.

Quote:

What do we have to lose by studying magnetic therapy or even trying it?

Studying it is fine provided you do it scientifically. Trying it can be harmful if you delay or avoid conventional treatment.

Quote:

“There seems to be a lot of emotion tied up in it. Maybe we can reduce the emotion and seek more information; a little less heat and a little more light.”

I'll settle for a little less BS and a little more fact.

[Fnord]

The way I see it, there will be no way to prove or disprove the efficacy of "Magnetic Therapy" until medical science finds an objective and reliabe way to measure a patient's pain -- a poena-meter, if you will.

[PrincessIneffabelle]

Originally Posted by ~enigma~

Really????

Wouldn't that mean when you get an MRI your blood flow is aided and you get an extreme flush and quite a drop in blood volume in your heart? Maybe we should outlaw MRI machines now...

I've had four MRIs in the last four years. During the procedures, I do think about all the magnetic therapy nonsense and how I should be magically magnetically "healed" by now.

[~enigma~]

Originally Posted by Fnord

The way I see it, there will be no way to prove or disprove the efficacy of "Magnetic Therapy" until medical science finds an objective and reliabe way to measure a patient's pain -- a poena-meter, if you will.

Nah...you don't need a meter. Want to test and see if magnets have their supposed effects? Magnets supposedly aid blood flow because of the attraction to the ferrous content of the blood. If that is true, a magnet held over the skin will cause a flush due to the rush of blood to the surface. See any? if blood was effected by magnets we would all be dead millions of times over. Magnet therapy belongs in the annals of medical woo along with vitamin O and homeopathy.

[Fnord]

Originally Posted by ~enigma~

Nah...you don't need a meter. Want to test and see if magnets have their supposed effects? Magnets supposedly aid blood flow because of the attraction to the ferrous content of the blood. If that is true, a magnet held over the skin will cause a flush due to the rush of blood to the surface. See any? if blood was effected by magnets we would all be dead millions of times over. Magnet therapy belongs in the annals of medical woo along with vitamin O and homeopathy.

[SARCASM]

Oh, nonono, NO!

You have to rub the magnet against your skin! There ... see? Your skin turned red where you rubbed the magnet! Isn't that interesting? It helps even more to rub some liniment on the magnet first. WOW!

[/SARCASM]

I mean, "WOO!"

[Cuddles]

Why do magnets need therapy?

[tsg]

Originally Posted by Cuddles

Why do magnets need therapy?

They're bi-polar.

[Cuddles]

[Fnord]

Q: "Why do magnets need therapy?" (Cuddles)
A: "They're bi-polar." (tsg)

Why me?

I try to be good...

[ChristineR]

Magnets don't increase blood flow--blood is not magnetic, and as enigma says, there is a very easy test for this. It's at least conceivable that we do have something in our bodies that responds to magnetic fields though. I think it's pretty well established that birds react to magnetic fields.

There's no easy way to blind magnet tests, and if we humans do in fact have some sort of rudimentary way of sensing magnetic fields (other than dropping a paper clip) blinding gets even harder.

I think it would be cool if humans do react to magnetic fields, although I doubt if the pain relief is anything but placebo.

[Oualawouzou]

I don't see what's so hard to test regarding magnets. Get people who suffer from some pain or other (non-life-threatening, of course). Give half of them magnets and half of them demagnetized lumps of metal. Let them do whatever they are supposed to do with magnets. Ask them to evaluate weither their pain got better, worse or didn't change. Compare the two groups. Pretty standard stuff, no?

[Comsat Angel]

Originally Posted by Oualawouzou

I don't see what's so hard to test regarding magnets. Get people who suffer from some pain or other (non-life-threatening, of course). Give half of them magnets and half of them demagnetized lumps of metal. Let them do whatever they are supposed to do with magnets. Ask them to evaluate weither their pain got better, worse or didn't change. Compare the two groups. Pretty standard stuff, no?

You could always put them in an agony booth ...

[ChristineR]

Originally Posted by Oualawouzou

I don't see what's so hard to test regarding magnets. Get people who suffer from some pain or other (non-life-threatening, of course). Give half of them magnets and half of them demagnetized lumps of metal. Let them do whatever they are supposed to do with magnets. Ask them to evaluate weither their pain got better, worse or didn't change. Compare the two groups. Pretty standard stuff, no?

No, because it will immediately be obvious if you have a magnet. People have the expectation that magnets will work, so there is a placebo effect.

You can do something clever like try out different combinations of painkilling drugs, sugar pills, magnets, and lumps and try and tease out the placebo effect, but there's no perfect way to do this.

[Oualawouzou]

"Immediately obvious"? How do you tell magnets apart from non-magnetized lumps of metal made to look like magnets?

[fls]

Originally Posted by Fnord

The way I see it, there will be no way to prove or disprove the efficacy of "Magnetic Therapy" until medical science finds an objective and reliabe way to measure a patient's pain -- a poena-meter, if you will.

This I don't understand. What's wrong with asking them? Are you saying that no analgesic can be studied?

Linda

[Baron Samedi]

Originally Posted by Cuddles

Why do magnets need therapy?

Originally Posted by tsg

They're bi-polar.

Ouch!

[Fnord]

Originally Posted by Oualawouzou

I don't see what's so hard to test regarding magnets. Get people who suffer from some pain or other (non-life-threatening, of course). Give half of them magnets and half of them demagnetized lumps of metal. Let them do whatever they are supposed to do with magnets. Ask them to evaluate weither their pain got better, worse or didn't change. Compare the two groups. Pretty standard stuff, no?

That might work, as far as it goes. The trouble is that pain is a subjective sensation. What might be excruciating for one might barely register to another, and may actually be pleasant to a third.

How about:

1) One lump of metal is a magnet, the other is a piece of bronze. Bothe are encased in plastic, which is the same size, shape and color. The patient decides which lump reduces their pain more, the one from box on the left or then box on the right.

2) Introduce a third lump, made of glass (also not magnetic), and encased in the same plastic.

3) Have the patient apply each lump to the same spot on the back of their neck, and report which one reduces their pain more.

4) Have the patient apply each lump to their forehead ("Apply directly to the forehead!"), and report which one induces hallucinations. (Note: This is a Red Herring, used simply to confuse and distract the patient).

5) Drop each lump into a separate, but equal, glass of distilled water, and have the patient report which lump makes the water taste better.

That ought to induce enough uncertainty to make the results more relevant.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by Oualawouzou

"Immediately obvious"? How do you tell magnets apart from non-magnetized lumps of metal made to look like magnets?

Accidental unblinding.
People go home with their bracelets or whatever, and can't resist the urge to see if different metal things stick to them.

Or their arm brushes against the refrigerator, etc., and it gives it away.

[Fnord]

Originally Posted by fls

This I don't understand. What's wrong with asking them? Are you saying that no analgesic can be studied?

Linda

Subjective studies are limited, in that you are forced to rely on opinions rather than measurable data. This causes the researchers to take extra steps to ensure that their data is reasonably accurate.

Also, those of us who endure chronic pain know that the effectiveness of an analgesic is affected by mood, diet, temperature, distractions, movement, and other factors.

[fls]

Originally Posted by Fnord

Subjective studies are limited, in that you are forced to rely on opinions rather than measurable data. This causes the researchers to take extra steps to ensure that their data is reasonably accurate.

The bulk of medical research depends upon "opinion" - interpretation of x-rays, interpretation of pathology examinations, symptoms, etc. That's the point of blinding.

Quote:

Also, those of us who endure chronic pain know that the effectiveness of an analgesic is affected by mood, diet, temperature, distractions, movement, and other factors.

That's the point of randomization. While various factors affect perception, they should be evenly distributed and therefore affect all groups in a similar manner (i.e. they cancel out between groups).

Linda

[fls]

Originally Posted by kellyb

Accidental unblinding.
People go home with their bracelets or whatever, and can't resist the urge to see if different metal things stick to them.

Or their arm brushes against the refrigerator, etc., and it gives it away.

Yeah. It's almost unavoidable. I use magnets instead of clasps (I make jewelry and it's easier to put on with one hand), but I get tired of forks sticking to my wrists.

Linda

[ChristineR]

If it's something like a belt or shoe insole, it will stick to itself. There's no way you could put on one of those magnetized knee braces without figuring it out.

[Zep]

Originally Posted by Fnord

The way I see it, there will be no way to prove or disprove the efficacy of "Magnetic Therapy" until medical science finds an objective and reliabe way to measure a patient's pain -- a poena-meter, if you will.

Talk to Truthseeker (not Thruthseeker1234) about the subject of pain and pain measurement, if you are serious. She has a PhD in it, with a considerable international reputation. Seriously!

[Soapy Sam]

"

Originally Posted by Fnord

Magnets may have healing potential similar to acupuncture needles."

Originally Posted by tsg

In other words, none at all.

tsg, may I urge the tiniest note of caution? Many physiotherapists use accupuncture needles to relax spasmed muscle by impacting trigger points.
The mechanism appears to be entirely physical, if their theory is right- as I understand it.
This is sometimes loosely described by them as " accupuncture" , though it shares little or no common theory with traditional accupuncture.

However, if they are right, long, thin needles do have therapeutic applications. Call them accupuncture needles if you will.

[wipeout]

There are medical devices that move blood using magnets so as not to chop the blood cells up as a propeller would. But don't tell the woos about this, okay?

[tsg]

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

"


tsg, may I urge the tiniest note of caution?

Always.

Quote:

Many physiotherapists use accupuncture needles to relax spasmed muscle by impacting trigger points.
The mechanism appears to be entirely physical, if their theory is right- as I understand it.
This is sometimes loosely described by them as " accupuncture" , though it shares little or no common theory with traditional accupuncture.

However, if they are right, long, thin needles do have therapeutic applications. Call them accupuncture needles if you will.

I seem to remember reading about a study which showed that acupuncture had the same effect regardless of where you put the needles. The hypothesis, if I remember correctly, was that pricking the skin with a needle released endorphins.

However, my comment was referring, as I believe the article was, to the practice of using needles to remove blockages or imbalances in "chi" flowing along the meridians. The phrase "homeostatic imbalance" and a link to an article describing traditional acupuncture seems to bear that out.

That and I was being a wise-ass.

It would make sense that acupuncture might have some actual effects that are greatly exaggerated in their usefulness while at the same time the mechanism by which they occur is completely misunderstood.

[athon]

Quote:

Says Colbert, “There’s a lot of skepticism and fear about magnet therapy, and I don’t know why. What do we have to lose by studying magnetic therapy or even trying it? Magnets don’t cost much and are unlikely to hurt anyone. If it turns out they are helpful, people will have a readily available resource for keeping themselves healthy.”

This is the nonsense that really get's me pissed. Seriously!

The suggestion is 'there's no harm in trying'. Which, on the face of it, sounds reasonable. It's up there with 'teach the controversy' of the ID debate. Of course, just as there is no real controversy with ID versus evolutionism, there is also a consequence in 'trying' which could potentially be harmful.

First of all, the 'skepticism and fear' is a strawman that is dry for burning. Concern, yes. Dismay and regret, yes. Anger, definitely. But fear? Maybe if you count the anxiety that people might rely on magnet therapy in lieu of something that might prevent ongoing illness. But fear?

Now, looking at the 'unlikely to hurt anyone' line. Anything that can influence the health of an individual does so by influencing their biology in some way. Therapeutic or not; if it makes you feel good, it also has the potential to do harm, if abused. However, if the mechanism of a therapy is not understood at all, or if there is no demonstration of any effects, then we have cause for concern. The constant insistance that magnets work based on a selection of anecdotes in itself causes damage to the public's confidence in how science works (i.e., intuition and social acceptance take precedence over blinded studies), not to mention the wasted expenditure on worthless articles which could be better spent on other things.

As part of my school's science club this year, we're investigating common myths and beliefs. Magnet therapy is one of them. I am so proud to be teaching the next generation's skeptics.

Athon

[athon]

As for testing, I see no problem with a simple double blind, where subjects who claim to experience slight aches and pains are given an itme which has either a magnet or a piece of iron sewn into it. They don't know if they have a magnet or a piece of iron, and neither does the tester. The subjects then record their level of pain across a time-span on a scale (as they do with any test of pain treatment) and the results are matched up for comparison. A positive statistical difference in favour of the magnetic items indicates they have pain relief properties.

Where does this protocol not work?

Athon

[Zep]

Originally Posted by athon

As for testing, I see no problem with a simple double blind, where subjects who claim to experience slight aches and pains are given an itme which has either a magnet or a piece of iron sewn into it. They don't know if they have a magnet or a piece of iron, and neither does the tester. The subjects then record their level of pain across a time-span on a scale (as they do with any test of pain treatment) and the results are matched up for comparison. A positive statistical difference in favour of the magnetic items indicates they have pain relief properties.

Where does this protocol not work?

Athon

Doesn't work in the blinding. The subject can VERY easily discriminate if it is a magnet or not (duh!), which they will inevitably do if they are on a trial, hence auto-unblinding the trial.

A method proposed was to use ultra-weak magnets, which, in some circles, are claimed to be as effective as strong magnets. However they would have to be weaker than the Earth's magnetic field to remain undetectable, which means they are simply unmagnetised pieces of iron, i.e. the control substance.

So... You need either ultra-dumb subjects, or some way of fooling them. Not easy...

[Wudang]

Robert Park did a write up in "Voodoo Science". A couple of highlights is that the iron in blood is not ferromagnetic (attracted to magnets) but diamagnetic so would be repelled by a magnet if it had any effect. The magnet he tried appeared to be like a fridge magnet with strips of alternating north/south so that you got an intense field at the surface that died off very quickly. He did a quick test with such a magnet to see how many sheets of paper it would stick to a fridge door (highly ferromagnetic unlike blood) and got 4(?) sheets. So reckoned the field would not penetrate the first layer of skin.
In case it helps Athon plan his course.

[casebro]

Originally Posted by Fnord

The way I see it, there will be no way to prove or disprove the efficacy of "Magnetic Therapy" until medical science finds an objective and reliabe way to measure a patient's pain -- a poena-meter, if you will.

Who needs a meter? I just use a ruler. My painis 12 inches, but I seldom use it, as a rule. Maybe my magnetic personality has something to do with it? I tend to repulse people with magnetic personalities. Like poles repulse, so do those of Lithuanian extract.

Ba-bump-dump.

[Fnord]

Actually, all of the double-blind proposals seem to have merit.

It's just that I'd rather that the doc use a real pain-gauge to accurately and objectively measure the intensity/frequency of the pain signals that are being generated, rather than ask me "On a scale from 0 to 10, how much pain are you feeling?" I'm always tempted to answer:

"FIVE FREEKIN THOUSAND, YOU *&^%$#@!"

"NOW GIMME SOME FREEKIN MORPHINE!"

[robinson]

Quote:

PAIN is a very personal experience, but it soon may be possible for one person to evaluate another's discomfort. Some doctors, scientists and researchers believe there is a pattern to pain that can be rated on a universal scale.

If pain could be reliably evaluated like body temperature, it might be better managed and treated. Health care costs might be reduced; workers would have fewer pain-related absences from work; and fraud from feigned pain might be eliminated.

Dr. A. Vania Apkarian, a neuroscientist, and Dr. Nikolaus Szeverenyi, a radiological physicist, both at the State University of New York in Albany, won a patent last week for a system of measuring human pain. But Dr. Apkarian said that researchers are still working on what to do with the data they can now collect.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...51C0A9669C8B63

[Whiplash]

Originally Posted by Fnord

[SARCASM]

Oh, nonono, NO!

You have to rub the magnet against your skin! There ... see? Your skin turned red where you rubbed the magnet! Isn't that interesting? It helps even more to rub some liniment on the magnet first. WOW!

[/SARCASM]

I mean, "WOO!"

IT RUBS THE MAGNETS ON IT'S SKIN OR IT GET'S THE HOSE AGAIN!

[tsg]

Originally Posted by Whiplash

IT RUBS THE MAGNETS ON IT'S SKIN OR IT GET'S THE HOSE AGAIN!

[petpeeve]An apo'strophe doe's not mean "Here come's an 'S".[/petpeeve]

Sorry. I had to get that out of my system.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

Magnets, like acupuncture, probably have the same placebo benefit.

[robinson]

Quote:

The results of the Baylor study, however, raise the possibility that at least in some cases, topical application of permanent magnets may indeed be useful in pain relief, a conclusion that should be regarded as tentative until supported by further studies. Any mechanism for such an effect remains mysterious, but an effect of static magnetic fields on the complex electrochemical processes of the human body is not impossible.

http://www.csicop.org/si/9807/magnet.html

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by robinson

http://www.csicop.org/si/9807/magnet.html

Unless they locked the patients in a room without anything metal in it, the study couldn't have been truly blinded.