is this "magic", or digital fakery?

negativ · 21st March 2007, 07:50 AM

I can think of a few ways one might pull this off, but none of them really stand up to prolonged scrutiny.

Note, you might want to kill the sound, as both of these clips feature what is arguably the most obnoxious music available.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Reno · 21st March 2007, 08:07 AM

The spinning card is an inexpensive gimmick you can pick up at any magic store. V likes, as I do, magician's thread.

Garrette · 21st March 2007, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Reno

The spinning card is an inexpensive gimmick you can pick up at any magic store. V likes, as I do, magician's thread.

Reno beat me to it, but it's a simple gimmick.

NobbyNobbs · 21st March 2007, 03:04 PM

Actually, I'm just as interested in where to get a Guy Fawkes mask.

JonWhite · 22nd March 2007, 08:54 AM

I believe the trick's name is "The Hummer Card" or such-like.

Mercutio · 22nd March 2007, 03:30 PM

I gotta think about getting that... it would actually work nicely into one of my dull, boring lectures on science...

rebecca · 22nd March 2007, 05:37 PM

I thought that trick was called "UFO."

wahrheit · 22nd March 2007, 05:54 PM

Hey, including reverse spoon bending! (Second video, at 1:55 remaining time.)

Garrette · 23rd March 2007, 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by rebecca

I thought that trick was called "UFO."

I got it long ago and had forgotten the name until JonWhite mentioned it (I've never actually performed it). There may be other versions, but there definitely is a Hummer Card trick.

rebecca · 23rd March 2007, 07:24 AM

Here's what I was thinking of:
http://www.hanklee.org/xcart/product...6&cat=0&page=1

Mercutio · 23rd March 2007, 07:53 AM

Ok, so in class, when we talk about Free Will vs. Determinism, I make the point that if an object could choose not to fall, we could never have a science of physics. I drop something a few times, and talk about Newton for a bit, and would love to be able to then open my hand to drop the object and have it just hover there, to make my point. Would this be the trick for this?

Could I, for instance, take out a pack of cards, throw a few to show that they fly and fall predictably, showing us the laws of gravity and aerodynamics...and then have one at random "choose" not to fall?

rebecca · 23rd March 2007, 08:14 AM

Maaaaaybe. A lot of it depends upon your classroom set-up, particularly lighting.

rebecca · 23rd March 2007, 08:17 AM

I should clarify that I've always been biased against these types of tricks, only because they are sold to amateurs as very easy, do-anywhere miracles. It's true that they can be totally mind blowing under the right circumstances and with a lot of practice, but it's not a fun gimmick to be caught with red handed.

Mercutio · 23rd March 2007, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by rebecca

Maaaaaybe. A lot of it depends upon your classroom set-up, particularly lighting.

Highly variable. Sometimes a dim stage with black curtains behind me, sometimes a small classroom with entirely too many fluorescent lights everywhere.

Bummer, sounds like.

rebecca · 23rd March 2007, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by Mercutio

Highly variable. Sometimes a dim stage with black curtains behind me, sometimes a small classroom with entirely too many fluorescent lights everywhere.

Bummer, sounds like.

Yeah, I'm thinking it would be really tough in a classroom setting with those flourescent lights, though someone else here might have experience and advice on making it work. But, there are plenty of other options for a magic trick based on the idea of an object "choosing" not to follow some rule of physics. I'll try to think of a good one that would fit you...

Bob Klase · 23rd March 2007, 09:25 AM

The original trick was Hummer's Whirling Card. UFO is a slightly different version of Hummer's trick.

Garrette · 23rd March 2007, 09:28 AM

I'm with Rebecca. It's mechanically simple, but proper presentation will need practice. There is also some (very minor but nonetheless it must be considered) set up, and lighting definitely matters.

And while multiple cards may be doable in theory, I think anything more than just one would require more practice than you want to put in to it and carry a high risk of failure.

Mercutio · 23rd March 2007, 09:57 AM

To be clear, only one card would choose to disobey physics. The others would fall normally. But I am admittedly ignorant about whether even that would make the whole thing more difficult than just one card.

The other illusion I want (I told you about this one in Boston, Rebecca) is of two spoons, both blackened with tarnish. One gets polished and shines all silvery and gleaming and pretty, the other gets polished and completely dissappears (the effect being that it was all tarnish, no spoon. I am certain that any number of you magicians could figure out a few ways to do this convincingly, but again I am an absolute ignoramus about magic.

Brown · 23rd March 2007, 11:36 AM

Let me chime in with a few observations.

First, there are are a variety of "hookups." One of the fun things about watching a performance like this is trying to deduce what hookup the performer is using.

Second, the camera misses a lot and is very easy to fool. The human eye is not quite as easy to fool. If you want to put your demonstration on video, you can get away with murder and still honestly claim that there were no camera tricks. But if you try to do it live, you have to exercise a bit more care.

Third, Michael Ammar has been "caught" with the gimmick several times, sometimes by spectators, sometimes by folks who inadvertently interfered with his performances. His stories about these adventures are hilarious, but also instructive.

Brown · 23rd March 2007, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Mercutio

The other illusion I want (I told you about this one in Boston, Rebecca) is of two spoons, both blackened with tarnish. One gets polished and shines all silvery and gleaming and pretty, the other gets polished and completely dissappears (the effect being that it was all tarnish, no spoon. I am certain that any number of you magicians could figure out a few ways to do this convincingly, but again I am an absolute ignoramus about magic.

I can suggest one possibility for you. Without going into details, use a "pull." Wipe one spoon with the cloth and place it on the table. When you show the other spoon, secretly attach the pull to it. While wiping the spoon (which will soil the cloth), use the pull to undetectably remove the spoon from the cloth. You can then show the cloth with the gunk on it, but the spoon is gone.

Garrette · 23rd March 2007, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Mercutio

To be clear, only one card would choose to disobey physics. The others would fall normally. But I am admittedly ignorant about whether even that would make the whole thing more difficult than just one card.

This should be doable. Just bear in mind the other limitations mentioned.

The investment is minimal, so it might be worth you ordering it to see if you want to try. And you're close enough to Rebecca and others that you might be able to arrange trying it on them for pointers.

JonWhite · 23rd March 2007, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Brown

I can suggest one possibility for you. Without going into details, use a "pull."

That'd be the easiest way I'd go too.

If you're not into cobbling one together yourself, then this http://www.penguinmagic.com/product.php?ID=86 is avilable in almost every good magic place - it was a bit of a magic craze after David Blaine used it in a show a while back. As long as the spoon has a certain "attraction" and isn't too big it should do the job almost straight out the box (with a little practice of course).

Grimoire · 23rd March 2007, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Mercutio

Could I, for instance, take out a pack of cards, throw a few to show that they fly and fall predictably, showing us the laws of gravity and aerodynamics...and then have one at random "choose" not to fall?

While not a magic trick, you could do a physics demonstration I once saw. Take a 4 foot (or so) copper pipe, and a small piece of metal. Drop the metal through the pipe. Ask people to try and estimate how long it took.

Do it again, but this time, tell them you are going to use your force of will to counteract gravity, and make it fall slower through the pipe. Drop the piece of metal through the pipe, but this time, it seems to take 3 to 4 times longer!

Allow them to come up, and even watch as you drop it down the pipe. They can look into the pipe and see that it is not obstructed, that it really does fall slowly.

The "trick"? You substitute a rare earth neodymium magnet after the first demonstration. Even if people realize that it is a magnet, they will still not understand why it falls slower, given the magnets don't "stick" to copper.

Mercutio · 23rd March 2007, 05:45 PM

very cool. Very, very cool. I must take a look at this...

Azrael 5 · 23rd March 2007, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Grimoire

While not a magic trick, you could do a physics demonstration I once saw. Take a 4 foot (or so) copper pipe, and a small piece of metal. Drop the metal through the pipe. Ask people to try and estimate how long it took.

Do it again, but this time, tell them you are going to use your force of will to counteract gravity, and make it fall slower through the pipe. Drop the piece of metal through the pipe, but this time, it seems to take 3 to 4 times longer!

Allow them to come up, and even watch as you drop it down the pipe. They can look into the pipe and see that it is not obstructed, that it really does fall slowly.

The "trick"? You substitute a rare earth neodymium magnet after the first demonstration. Even if people realize that it is a magnet, they will still not understand why it falls slower, given the magnets don't "stick" to copper.

That is actually marketed with magic tricks these days.Something to do with electricity apparently.

here you are
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Newtons-Nigh...QQcmdZViewItem

Grimoire · 23rd March 2007, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

That is actually marketed with magic tricks these days.Something to do with electricity apparently.

here you are
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Newtons-Nigh...QQcmdZViewItem

Looks like the same thing alright!

Ok, while we aren't supposed to reveal the trick, this is more of a science demonstration than a magic trick. This trick uses Lenz's Law^WP. A simplistic description can be found on this magnet experiments page. Very cool stuff to see in person.

Nice video showing it:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Brown · 23rd March 2007, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by Grimoire

Ok, while we aren't supposed to reveal the trick, this is more of a science demonstration than a magic trick. This trick uses Lenz's Law^WP.

When describing the science involved, I also refer to Faraday's law of induction^WP.

My goodness, could this have any scientific relevance, or does it have any practical benefit? Hmm. One might also ask how a maglev (magnetic levitation) vehicle can float over aluminum rails, since a magent will not attract or repel aluminum (just as a magnet will not attract or repel copper). One might well ask how a metal detector can use Faraday's Law and Lenz's Law to find buried metal coins.

21st March 2007, 08:07 AM	#2
Reno Inquisitor Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Scotland, West Coast Posts: 1,021	The spinning card is an inexpensive gimmick you can pick up at any magic store. V likes, as I do, magician's thread.
	__________________ "Well, if it matters not to you how things are phrased, nor whether they make any logical sense, then here is my answer to your question: Twenty-seven rumbly-tumblies in a tinhorn fandango." - Robert S Lancaster Stop Sylvia Browne

21st March 2007, 09:35 AM	#3
Garrette Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,964	Originally Posted by Reno The spinning card is an inexpensive gimmick you can pick up at any magic store. V likes, as I do, magician's thread. Reno beat me to it, but it's a simple gimmick.
Garrette Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,964	__________________ My kids still love me.

21st March 2007, 03:04 PM	#4
NobbyNobbs Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: The Mended Drum Posts: 4,976	Actually, I'm just as interested in where to get a Guy Fawkes mask.
	__________________ I wish someone would find something I wrote on this board to be sig-worthy, thereby effectively granting me immortality.--Antiquehunter The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted years on earth the time spent eating butterscotch pudding. AMERICA! NUMBER 1 IN PARTICLE PHYSICS SINCE JULY 4TH, 1776!!! --SusanConstant

22nd March 2007, 08:54 AM	#5
JonWhite Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: London Posts: 603	I believe the trick's name is "The Hummer Card" or such-like.
	__________________ "In cases where prior knowledge is available, the alternative to 'an open mind' is not 'a closed mind'. It is 'an informed mind'. In such contexts, any appeal to 'keep an open mind' is an appeal to prefer ignorance over knowledge" Ian Rowland

22nd March 2007, 03:30 PM	#6
Mercutio Shakespeare's Sock Puppet Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Live Free Or Die Posts: 16,329	I gotta think about getting that... it would actually work nicely into one of my dull, boring lectures on science...
	__________________ "But to see her was to love her Love but her, and love forever."

22nd March 2007, 05:37 PM	#7
rebecca Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: some other spring Posts: 6,852	I thought that trick was called "UFO."

22nd March 2007, 05:54 PM	#8
wahrheit Pac-Man Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,589	Hey, including reverse spoon bending! (Second video, at 1:55 remaining time.)
wahrheit Pac-Man Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,589	__________________ For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen. D. Adams -- THHGTTG You're a sick man. The Atheist

23rd March 2007, 06:31 AM	#9
Garrette Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,964	Originally Posted by rebecca I thought that trick was called "UFO." I got it long ago and had forgotten the name until JonWhite mentioned it (I've never actually performed it). There may be other versions, but there definitely is a Hummer Card trick.
Garrette Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,964	__________________ My kids still love me.

23rd March 2007, 07:24 AM	#10
rebecca Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: some other spring Posts: 6,852	Here's what I was thinking of: http://www.hanklee.org/xcart/product...6&cat=0&page=1

23rd March 2007, 07:53 AM	#11
Mercutio Shakespeare's Sock Puppet Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Live Free Or Die Posts: 16,329	Ok, so in class, when we talk about Free Will vs. Determinism, I make the point that if an object could choose not to fall, we could never have a science of physics. I drop something a few times, and talk about Newton for a bit, and would love to be able to then open my hand to drop the object and have it just hover there, to make my point. Would this be the trick for this? Could I, for instance, take out a pack of cards, throw a few to show that they fly and fall predictably, showing us the laws of gravity and aerodynamics...and then have one at random "choose" not to fall?
	__________________ "But to see her was to love her Love but her, and love forever."

23rd March 2007, 08:14 AM	#12
rebecca Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: some other spring Posts: 6,852	Maaaaaybe. A lot of it depends upon your classroom set-up, particularly lighting.

23rd March 2007, 08:17 AM	#13
rebecca Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: some other spring Posts: 6,852	I should clarify that I've always been biased against these types of tricks, only because they are sold to amateurs as very easy, do-anywhere miracles. It's true that they can be totally mind blowing under the right circumstances and with a lot of practice, but it's not a fun gimmick to be caught with red handed.

23rd March 2007, 08:45 AM	#14
Mercutio Shakespeare's Sock Puppet Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Live Free Or Die Posts: 16,329	Originally Posted by rebecca Maaaaaybe. A lot of it depends upon your classroom set-up, particularly lighting. Highly variable. Sometimes a dim stage with black curtains behind me, sometimes a small classroom with entirely too many fluorescent lights everywhere. Bummer, sounds like.
	__________________ "But to see her was to love her Love but her, and love forever."

23rd March 2007, 08:54 AM	#15
rebecca Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: some other spring Posts: 6,852	Originally Posted by Mercutio Highly variable. Sometimes a dim stage with black curtains behind me, sometimes a small classroom with entirely too many fluorescent lights everywhere. Bummer, sounds like. Yeah, I'm thinking it would be really tough in a classroom setting with those flourescent lights, though someone else here might have experience and advice on making it work. But, there are plenty of other options for a magic trick based on the idea of an object "choosing" not to follow some rule of physics. I'll try to think of a good one that would fit you...

23rd March 2007, 09:25 AM	#16
Bob Klase Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Largo, FL Posts: 2,445	The original trick was Hummer's Whirling Card. UFO is a slightly different version of Hummer's trick.

23rd March 2007, 09:28 AM	#17
Garrette Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,964	I'm with Rebecca. It's mechanically simple, but proper presentation will need practice. There is also some (very minor but nonetheless it must be considered) set up, and lighting definitely matters. And while multiple cards may be doable in theory, I think anything more than just one would require more practice than you want to put in to it and carry a high risk of failure.
Garrette Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,964	__________________ My kids still love me.

23rd March 2007, 09:57 AM	#18
Mercutio Shakespeare's Sock Puppet Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Live Free Or Die Posts: 16,329	To be clear, only one card would choose to disobey physics. The others would fall normally. But I am admittedly ignorant about whether even that would make the whole thing more difficult than just one card. The other illusion I want (I told you about this one in Boston, Rebecca) is of two spoons, both blackened with tarnish. One gets polished and shines all silvery and gleaming and pretty, the other gets polished and completely dissappears (the effect being that it was all tarnish, no spoon. I am certain that any number of you magicians could figure out a few ways to do this convincingly, but again I am an absolute ignoramus about magic.
	__________________ "But to see her was to love her Love but her, and love forever."

23rd March 2007, 11:36 AM	#19
Brown Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Twin Cities, Canada Posts: 9,117	Let me chime in with a few observations. First, there are are a variety of "hookups." One of the fun things about watching a performance like this is trying to deduce what hookup the performer is using. Second, the camera misses a lot and is very easy to fool. The human eye is not quite as easy to fool. If you want to put your demonstration on video, you can get away with murder and still honestly claim that there were no camera tricks. But if you try to do it live, you have to exercise a bit more care. Third, Michael Ammar has been "caught" with the gimmick several times, sometimes by spectators, sometimes by folks who inadvertently interfered with his performances. His stories about these adventures are hilarious, but also instructive.
	__________________ Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice

23rd March 2007, 11:42 AM	#20
Brown Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Twin Cities, Canada Posts: 9,117	Originally Posted by Mercutio The other illusion I want (I told you about this one in Boston, Rebecca) is of two spoons, both blackened with tarnish. One gets polished and shines all silvery and gleaming and pretty, the other gets polished and completely dissappears (the effect being that it was all tarnish, no spoon. I am certain that any number of you magicians could figure out a few ways to do this convincingly, but again I am an absolute ignoramus about magic. I can suggest one possibility for you. Without going into details, use a "pull." Wipe one spoon with the cloth and place it on the table. When you show the other spoon, secretly attach the pull to it. While wiping the spoon (which will soil the cloth), use the pull to undetectably remove the spoon from the cloth. You can then show the cloth with the gunk on it, but the spoon is gone.
	__________________ Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice

23rd March 2007, 11:50 AM	#21
Garrette Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,964	Originally Posted by Mercutio To be clear, only one card would choose to disobey physics. The others would fall normally. But I am admittedly ignorant about whether even that would make the whole thing more difficult than just one card. This should be doable. Just bear in mind the other limitations mentioned. The investment is minimal, so it might be worth you ordering it to see if you want to try. And you're close enough to Rebecca and others that you might be able to arrange trying it on them for pointers.
Garrette Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,964	__________________ My kids still love me.

23rd March 2007, 01:42 PM	#22
JonWhite Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: London Posts: 603	Originally Posted by Brown I can suggest one possibility for you. Without going into details, use a "pull." That'd be the easiest way I'd go too. If you're not into cobbling one together yourself, then this http://www.penguinmagic.com/product.php?ID=86 is avilable in almost every good magic place - it was a bit of a magic craze after David Blaine used it in a show a while back. As long as the spoon has a certain "attraction" and isn't too big it should do the job almost straight out the box (with a little practice of course).
	__________________ "In cases where prior knowledge is available, the alternative to 'an open mind' is not 'a closed mind'. It is 'an informed mind'. In such contexts, any appeal to 'keep an open mind' is an appeal to prefer ignorance over knowledge" Ian Rowland Last edited by JonWhite; 23rd March 2007 at 02:48 PM.

23rd March 2007, 04:47 PM	#23
Grimoire Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 382	Originally Posted by Mercutio Could I, for instance, take out a pack of cards, throw a few to show that they fly and fall predictably, showing us the laws of gravity and aerodynamics...and then have one at random "choose" not to fall? While not a magic trick, you could do a physics demonstration I once saw. Take a 4 foot (or so) copper pipe, and a small piece of metal. Drop the metal through the pipe. Ask people to try and estimate how long it took. Do it again, but this time, tell them you are going to use your force of will to counteract gravity, and make it fall slower through the pipe. Drop the piece of metal through the pipe, but this time, it seems to take 3 to 4 times longer! Allow them to come up, and even watch as you drop it down the pipe. They can look into the pipe and see that it is not obstructed, that it really does fall slowly. The "trick"? You substitute a rare earth neodymium magnet after the first demonstration. Even if people realize that it is a magnet, they will still not understand why it falls slower, given the magnets don't "stick" to copper.
Grimoire Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 382	__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." -Voltaire 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0

23rd March 2007, 05:45 PM	#24
Mercutio Shakespeare's Sock Puppet Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Live Free Or Die Posts: 16,329	very cool. Very, very cool. I must take a look at this...
	__________________ "But to see her was to love her Love but her, and love forever."

23rd March 2007, 06:18 PM	#25
Azrael 5 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Yorkshire,Uk Posts: 4,219	Originally Posted by Grimoire While not a magic trick, you could do a physics demonstration I once saw. Take a 4 foot (or so) copper pipe, and a small piece of metal. Drop the metal through the pipe. Ask people to try and estimate how long it took. Do it again, but this time, tell them you are going to use your force of will to counteract gravity, and make it fall slower through the pipe. Drop the piece of metal through the pipe, but this time, it seems to take 3 to 4 times longer! Allow them to come up, and even watch as you drop it down the pipe. They can look into the pipe and see that it is not obstructed, that it really does fall slowly. The "trick"? You substitute a rare earth neodymium magnet after the first demonstration. Even if people realize that it is a magnet, they will still not understand why it falls slower, given the magnets don't "stick" to copper. That is actually marketed with magic tricks these days.Something to do with electricity apparently. here you are http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Newtons-Nigh...QQcmdZViewItem
	__________________ "I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown Photography here Last edited by Azrael 5; 23rd March 2007 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Link added

23rd March 2007, 06:50 PM	#27
Brown Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Twin Cities, Canada Posts: 9,117	Originally Posted by Grimoire Ok, while we aren't supposed to reveal the trick, this is more of a science demonstration than a magic trick. This trick uses Lenz's Law^WP. When describing the science involved, I also refer to Faraday's law of induction^WP. My goodness, could this have any scientific relevance, or does it have any practical benefit? Hmm. One might also ask how a maglev (magnetic levitation) vehicle can float over aluminum rails, since a magent will not attract or repel aluminum (just as a magnet will not attract or repel copper). One might well ask how a metal detector can use Faraday's Law and Lenz's Law to find buried metal coins.
	__________________ Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice