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Upchurch · 2nd April 2007, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

Sure, that's fair. However, there's a difference between, for example, calling black historical figures "people of color" or the racial term de jure, rather than "negroes" and claming that a controversy exists amoung scientists on an issue where no such controversy exists. The later is a lie.

Well, however you want to cut the PC/lie boundry, it is no more of a lie than holocaust denial. I assume that you would not classify the acts taken in the OP article as PC either?

ImaginalDisc · 2nd April 2007, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

Teaching, as any other profession, has it's share of incompetents and nut cases. If I were a UK tax payer I'd be pretty ticked that the educrats hired consultants to write a 48 page paper on this rather than discipling those schools and teachers who were the actual offenders.

I'm pretty darned sure that it takes supporting paperwork to discipline so many teachers and schools.

Upchurch · 2nd April 2007, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

Teaching, as any other profession, has it's share of incompetents and nut cases.

An excellent point. I'm getting hit with jet lag at the moment, but it seems to me that these were independent acts of individual teachers and not an institutional policy.

Alt+F4 · 2nd April 2007, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

I'm pretty darned sure that it takes supporting paperwork to discipline so many teachers and schools.

Maybe, but neither the news stories or original report say how many schools and teachers were involved. My belief is that it's quite low.

ImaginalDisc · 2nd April 2007, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

Maybe, but neither the news stories or original report say how many schools and teachers were involved. My belief is that it's quite low.

I don't know about U.K. teachers, but U.S. public school teachers are extremely difficult to fire without either criminal charges or mountains of supporting paperwork.

Alt+F4 · 2nd April 2007, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

I don't know about U.K. teachers, but U.S. public school teachers are extremely difficult to fire without either criminal charges or mountains of supporting paperwork.

I'm not suggesting they be fired, I'm saying those particular teachers need some serious professional development, the whole education system shouldn't be dragged through the mud because of these "bad apples".

tkingdoll · 2nd April 2007, 12:58 PM

I get the impression this issue was revealed as a result of the study, so how could the government discipline those schools involved instead?

ImaginalDisc · 2nd April 2007, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

I'm not suggesting they be fired, I'm saying those particular teachers need some serious professional development, the whole education system shouldn't be dragged through the mud because of these "bad apples".

You said that the report was a waste of time, but it's often necessary for a school district's administration to gain public support before taking bad schools and bad teachers to the cleaners. At least in the US. The UK may be different. I wouldn't know.

Alt+F4 · 2nd April 2007, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

You said that the report was a waste of time, but it's often necessary for a school district's administration to gain public support before taking bad schools and bad teachers to the cleaners. At least in the US. The UK may be different. I wouldn't know.

I agree but UK parents are getting any hard facts from that report. If it said, "13% of UK schools don't teach the Holocaust" then that would be something educational reformers could sink their teeth into. The actual report seems like nothing more than educrats yelling the sky is falling.

ImaginalDisc · 2nd April 2007, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

I agree but UK parents are getting any hard facts from that report. If it said, "13% of UK schools don't teach the Holocaust" then that would be something educational reformers could sink their teeth into. The actual report seems like nothing more than educrats yelling the sky is falling.

I'd find your arugment more credible if you stop making up words like "educrat."

Alt+F4 · 2nd April 2007, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

I'd find your arugment more credible if you stop making up words like "educrat."

I wish I had made it up, but I didn't. It's commonly used here in the largest school system in the U.S. - NYC

ImaginalDisc · 2nd April 2007, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

I wish I had made it up, but I didn't. It's commonly used here in the largest school system in the U.S. - NYC

It's not a word. If you meant to express contempt for bureaucrats, feel free to explain how you'd educate millions of students with a consistent curriculum without a bureaucratic administration. Correcting problems such as these in a school system can take a lot of work, and forming a long report is almost always part of the process.

Alt+F4 · 2nd April 2007, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

It's not a word. If you meant to express contempt for bureaucrats, feel free to explain how you'd educate millions of students with a consistent curriculum without a bureaucratic administration. Correcting problems such as these in a school system can take a lot of work, and forming a long report is almost always part of the process.

I have nothing against bureaucracies or long reports as long as those bureaucracies are honest and long reports have facts. Neither seems to be the case here.

tkingdoll · 2nd April 2007, 01:39 PM

What, exactly, is dishonest about the report? And what are the examples given if not facts? Just because the schools aren't named, you can't infer the report is simply lying.

Alt+F4 · 2nd April 2007, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

What, exactly, is dishonest about the report? And what are the examples given if not facts? Just because the schools aren't named, you can't infer the report is simply lying.

I'm not saying the report is lying. Why couldn't the report at least give statistics on how wide spread this problem is? Since it doesn't, it leads to the conclusion that it is widespread which while not lying, is dishonest by omission.

Is this a serious problem in the UK educational system? That report doesn't tell me. All it tells me is that a few unamed schools did not teach controversial subjects. Did this occur during just one school year or has it been going on for years? Did the teachers do this of their own volition or were they instructed to by the administrators?

Even without naming the schools a good researcher could have obtained many hard facts about what is and isn't being taught in UK schools. Sorry, but this report isn't that.

Upchurch · 2nd April 2007, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

I'm not saying the report is lying. Why couldn't the report at least give statistics on how wide spread this problem is? Since it doesn't, it leads to the conclusion that it is widespread which while not lying, is dishonest by omission.

Do you mean, perhaps, that it is indeterminate or inconclusive?

a_unique_person · 2nd April 2007, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Cleon

Red flag: The Department of Education and Skills, the purported source of this report, does not mention anything about it on their web site. There is no mention of this report in the press releases, and site searches for the terms "holocaust" and "crusades" turn up little more than information about educational standards.

The article is probably correct, from what I can tell. It appears to be more a case of "2 or 3" is a plural. They also mention some teachers are wary of teaching slavery, which is not mentioned in the Daily Mail article, for fear of offending people, and that teachers just want some guidance in how to deal with "controversial" topics. Since teaching the Holocaust is mandatory, I would guess that the department is following up on it's research, which it appears was well advised, and, with some new research into policies, will ensure the subjects of slavery and the Holocaust will be managed better now.

It's interesting to note the beat up. The Education department has made teaching the Holocaust compulsory, it has instigated it's own research to see how teaching sensitive topics is going, and it is now going to act on that research to ensure these topics are taught. Teachers who were unsure how to handle these topics will now get the help they want on how to approach it. The article in the DM does not mention these facts, it just goes for the beat up, which is disgraceful.

The Holocaust needs to be taught, and if anti-semitism is a factor, teachers should be helped in how to deal with it properly, since they are obviously not sure how they should go about it.

a_unique_person · 2nd April 2007, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

Link. What's going on over there?

Muslim Holocaust denial and theology trump history?

Did you get this at LGF?

Quote:

Britain's Rather Large Problem

It's a beat up. It's not a "Large Problem" at all. It's a problem and it's being managed. They were on to it before the DailyMail even reported it.

Thunder · 2nd April 2007, 07:10 PM

#1..I doubt the honesty of this story.
#2..If it is true, only an anti-Semitic Muslem would be against learning about the Holocaust. It is a true lesson about man's inhumanity to man and can teach valuable lessons in regards to what happens if bigotry and hatred is left unchecked. And that goes for South Africa, Bosnia, the American South, or Palestine.

Tony · 2nd April 2007, 08:47 PM

So, is there anything being done in the UK to combat this? History education shouldn't suffer because some idiot fundies are too sensitive to recognize reality.

a_unique_person · 2nd April 2007, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Tony

So, is there anything being done in the UK to combat this? History education shouldn't suffer because some idiot fundies are too sensitive to recognize reality.

You fell for the opening post hook, line and sinker, Tony, which I guess was the desired effect.

The only reason the author of the newspaper article knew about the problem was because she read the results of a survey by the department to find out what problems there were, and how to fix them. It is official policy to teach the Holocaust, and they will be helping teachers who feel they need some guidance on how to deal with this and other issues.

Darat · 3rd April 2007, 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

#1..I doubt the honesty of this story.
#2..If it is true, only an anti-Semitic Muslem would be against learning about the Holocaust. It is a true lesson about man's inhumanity to man and can teach valuable lessons in regards to what happens if bigotry and hatred is left unchecked. And that goes for South Africa, Bosnia, the American South, or Palestine.

I disagree with your #2 - the UK has a rather shameful history of anti-Semitism long before we had any significant Muslim population.

Originally Posted by Tony

So, is there anything being done in the UK to combat this? History education shouldn't suffer because some idiot fundies are too sensitive to recognize reality.

The Holocaust forms part of the compulsory history section of the National Curriculum.

Tony · 3rd April 2007, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

You fell for the opening post hook, line and sinker, Tony, which I guess was the desired effect.

No I didn't. I just found the debate over whether the article in the OP was accurate or not very insipid and pointless. My concern is whether or not the Holocaust is being taught, not whether the Daily Mail or the BBC were right.

Quote:

The only reason the author of the newspaper article knew about the problem was because she read the results of a survey by the department to find out what problems there were, and how to fix them. It is official policy to teach the Holocaust, and they will be helping teachers who feel they need some guidance on how to deal with this and other issues.

Good.

brodski · 3rd April 2007, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

I'm not saying the report is lying. Why couldn't the report at least give statistics on how wide spread this problem is?

because it appears to be a qualitative rather than quantitative report. Qualitative reports such as this tend to be much cheaper and quicker to produce, and may indicate that further more in depth study is required.
The Schools are probably not named as it is likely that in order to get as accurate information on motives from schools and teachers as as possible, the respondents were guaranteed anonymity. It is likely that even officials at eth DfES don't know which schools were interviewed.

Quote:

Since it doesn't, it leads to the conclusion that it is widespread which while not lying, is dishonest by omission.

this was never intend to be a qualitative report, the fact that you believe that it should have been is not the fault of the authors.

Quote:

Is this a serious problem in the UK educational system? That report doesn't tell me. All it tells me is that a few unamed schools did not teach controversial subjects. Did this occur during just one school year or has it been going on for years? Did the teachers do this of their own volition or were they instructed to by the administrators?

Even without naming the schools a good researcher could have obtained many hard facts about what is and isn't being taught in UK schools. Sorry, but this report isn't that.

but this is a nice quick and cheep report which can indicate specific areas of concern for future research. I'm sorry it didn't meet your needs, but you appear to have misunderstood why this report was commissioned.

BPSCG · 3rd April 2007, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

"Scopes Monkey Trial" ring any sort of bells? It was rather famous? They made a movie based on it?

Are you suggesting that there are US schools today that are afraid to teach evolution because of religious extremists?

And you're using Hollywood as your star witness?

drkitten · 3rd April 2007, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

Are you suggesting that there are US schools today that are afraid to teach evolution because of religious extremists?

Whether he's suggesting it or not, there appear to be.

Cite -- "Despite a long history of debate, legal battles and court decisions supporting the teaching of evolutionary science, there remains strong social pressure to replace the instruction of evolution with nonscientific ideologies. As a result, many teachers and professors are hesitant or afraid to teach evolution."

Cite -- "Reports have surfaced that teachers are afraid to teach evolution theory because of potential criticism from religious organizations. "

Cite -- "Some students here say teachers shy from teaching evolution. And some teachers say as they teach evolution, they broach it gingerly.

"Timmia Hearn Feldman, a Central Junior High School student, said her father had to press school officials to teach evolution in her biology class. When it was covered, Hearn Feldman said much of the unit was passed over.

"I feel like it wasn't covered sufficiently," she said. "I think a lot of teachers are afraid to teach evolution.""

Your Google-fu should be able to find other examples.

BPSCG · 3rd April 2007, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by drkitten

Whether he's suggesting it or not, there appear to be.

Cite -- "Despite a long history of debate, legal battles and court decisions supporting the teaching of evolutionary science, there remains strong social pressure to replace the instruction of evolution with nonscientific ideologies. As a result, many teachers and professors are hesitant or afraid to teach evolution."

Citation makes no actual claim that evolution is not being taught, only that some teachers are "hesitant or afraid" to teach it - not that they are refusing.

Quote:

Cite -- "Reports have surfaced that teachers are afraid to teach evolution theory because of potential criticism from religious organizations. "

Citation goes on to cite as exhibit A the famous Dover, PA and Kansas state board of ed decisions, both of which were resounding victories for anti-creationist/ID supporters. Kinda like claiming that women are afraid to have abortions and then citing Roe v. Wade to back up the assertion.

Quote:

Cite -- "Some students here say teachers shy from teaching evolution. And some teachers say as they teach evolution, they broach it gingerly.

"Timmia Hearn Feldman, a Central Junior High School student, said her father had to press school officials to teach evolution in her biology class. When it was covered, Hearn Feldman said much of the unit was passed over.

"I feel like it wasn't covered sufficiently," she said. "I think a lot of teachers are afraid to teach evolution.""

Your Google-fu should be able to find other examples.

Citation goes on to say:

Students learn about evolution and related subjects in sixth-grade life science, seventh-grade earth science, ninth-grade biology and several high school courses, including advanced biology, and ecology and environmental science. But many topics, such as dinosaurs or the age of the Earth, can be introduced as early as kindergarten. And points related to evolution pervade the curriculum.

Textbooks contain whole units and chapters dedicated to evolution discussion. The Lawrence school district's sixth-grade life sciences textbook contains a unit called "heredity, evolution, and classification." It covers fossils, dinosaurs, the geologic time scale that outlines the history of life on Earth, human evolution and other topics.

By comparison, the Daily Mail's report is an example of in-depth research.

I don't doubt that teachers have concerns about how to teach the material when teaching evolution; no teacher wants some fundamentalist parent making his life miserable because what he's teaching conflicts with Genesis. But that's not the same as saying the teacher doesn't do it. I don't like getting up at 5:30 in the am, and I don't like getting on the highway with a bunch of cretins who believe they are exempt from the laws of man and nature. But that's not the same as saying I don't do it.

Tony · 3rd April 2007, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

Are you suggesting that there are US schools today that are afraid to teach evolution because of religious extremists?

And you're using Hollywood as your star witness?

The Scopes Monkey Trail was a real event.

Upchurch · 3rd April 2007, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

And you're using Hollywood as your star witness?

What are you talking about? I was using an historic event as my "star witness". I referenced the movie as something you might know of the real life event from. Are you deliberately trying to evoke argumentative fallacies?

Originally Posted by BPSCG

Citation makes no actual claim that evolution is not being taught, only that some teachers are "hesitant or afraid" to teach it - not that they are refusing.

Oh, come on. Quit using plays from Claus's "Never Concede A Point" book.

It says that some teachers are afraid to teach it. That doesn't count because they don't explicitly say they "refuse" to teach it? Give it up, already. Don't be so stubborn.

Originally Posted by BPSCG

Citation goes on to cite as exhibit A the famous Dover, PA and Kansas state board of ed decisions, both of which were resounding victories for anti-creationist/ID supporters.

...which deals with the legality of ID in the classroom and is unrelated to the reports of teachers being afraid to teach the subject.

Originally Posted by BPSCG

I don't doubt that teachers have concerns about how to teach the material when teaching evolution; no teacher wants some fundamentalist parent making his life miserable because what he's teaching conflicts with Genesis. But that's not the same as saying the teacher doesn't do it. I don't like getting up at 5:30 in the am, and I don't like getting on the highway with a bunch of cretins who believe they are exempt from the laws of man and nature. But that's not the same as saying I don't do it.

What you don't like doing is not the same thing as what you are afraid to do. I don't like giving blood, but I do it. I'm afraid to sky dive and that is the same as saying that I don't do it.

BPSCG · 3rd April 2007, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

What are you talking about? I was using an historic event as my "star witness". I referenced the movie as something you might know of the real life event from. Are you deliberately trying to evoke argumentative fallacies?

I'm sorry, but you, not I, brought up Inherit the Wind.

Believe me when I tell you that you don't have to assume I am ignorant of any subject that Hollywood hasn't treated. I knew of the Titanic before seeing the movie, I knew of Beethoven and Mozart before seeing Immortal Beloved and Amadeus, I knew of the American Civil War before seeing Glory and Gettysburg, I knew of World War I before seeing Paths Of Glory, and I knew of World War II before seeing Sands of Iwo Jima, From Here to Eternity, and Schindler's List.

Quote:

What you don't like doing is not the same thing as what you are afraid to do. I don't like giving blood, but I do it. I'm afraid to sky dive and that is the same as saying that I don't do it.

I'm afraid to drive to work. They're nucking futs out there.

drkitten · 3rd April 2007, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

It says that some teachers are afraid to teach it.

Especially since he specifically asked for evidence that teachers were "afraid" to teach evolution.

Upchurch · 3rd April 2007, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

I'm sorry, but you, not I, brought up Inherit the Wind.

Actually, what I brought up was the Scopes Monkey Trial, on which Inherit the Wind was based. You pulled the Clausian technique of nitpicking on the irrelevant detail to avoid the actual meat of the subject.

At no time did I refer to Inherit the Wind as an authoritative source, as you claimed. Yes, I mentioned it, but not as a substantive point. What you presented was a straw man.

Mycroft · 4th April 2007, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Tony

The Scopes Monkey Trail was a real event.

It was, but back in the 1920's. We have made a lot of progress since then.

Upchurch · 4th April 2007, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

It was, but back in the 1920's. We have made a lot of progress since then.

Some, yes, but it isn't like the problem has gone away.

Upchurch · 4th April 2007, 11:15 AM

Some relevant information in another thread.

Beerina · 4th April 2007, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

#1..I doubt the honesty of this story.
#2..If it is true, only an anti-Semitic Muslem would be against learning about the Holocaust. It is a true lesson about man's inhumanity to man and can teach valuable lessons in regards to what happens if bigotry and hatred is left unchecked. And that goes for South Africa, Bosnia, the American South, or Palestine.

Exactly. Those who are "steeped" in holocaust denial at home are exactly the children who should have it beaten into their skulls. That parents might be outraged and upset is exactly why it needs to be done.

ImaginalDisc · 18th April 2007, 11:20 AM

Snopes weighs in.

a_unique_person · 18th April 2007, 05:37 PM

So I was right. Another LGF beatup.

gtc · 18th April 2007, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

So I was right. Another LGF beatup.

Do you have a point? You were the first last and only person to mention LGF.

Mycroft · 18th April 2007, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

So I was right. Another LGF beatup.

The last paragraph of the Snopes article:

Quote:

...Schools in the UK are indeed teaching about the Holocaust, something British journalists seemed to downplay in their rush to report that one department in one city was not.

According to Snopes the "beatup" was done by British journalists.

2nd April 2007, 12:43 PM	#42
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Alt+F4 Teaching, as any other profession, has it's share of incompetents and nut cases. If I were a UK tax payer I'd be pretty ticked that the educrats hired consultants to write a 48 page paper on this rather than discipling those schools and teachers who were the actual offenders. I'm pretty darned sure that it takes supporting paperwork to discipline so many teachers and schools.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

2nd April 2007, 12:49 PM	#44
Alt+F4 diabolical globalist Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Department of Abandoned Places Posts: 9,804	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc I'm pretty darned sure that it takes supporting paperwork to discipline so many teachers and schools. Maybe, but neither the news stories or original report say how many schools and teachers were involved. My belief is that it's quite low.
	__________________ "My folks touched a lot of kids." - Jerry Sandusky

2nd April 2007, 12:52 PM	#45
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Alt+F4 Maybe, but neither the news stories or original report say how many schools and teachers were involved. My belief is that it's quite low. I don't know about U.K. teachers, but U.S. public school teachers are extremely difficult to fire without either criminal charges or mountains of supporting paperwork.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

2nd April 2007, 12:56 PM	#46
Alt+F4 diabolical globalist Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Department of Abandoned Places Posts: 9,804	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc I don't know about U.K. teachers, but U.S. public school teachers are extremely difficult to fire without either criminal charges or mountains of supporting paperwork. I'm not suggesting they be fired, I'm saying those particular teachers need some serious professional development, the whole education system shouldn't be dragged through the mud because of these "bad apples".
	__________________ "My folks touched a lot of kids." - Jerry Sandusky

2nd April 2007, 12:58 PM	#47
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,471	I get the impression this issue was revealed as a result of the study, so how could the government discipline those schools involved instead?
	__________________ www.stormmovie.net Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie

2nd April 2007, 12:42 PM	#41
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,472	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc Sure, that's fair. However, there's a difference between, for example, calling black historical figures "people of color" or the racial term de jure, rather than "negroes" and claming that a controversy exists amoung scientists on an issue where no such controversy exists. The later is a lie. Well, however you want to cut the PC/lie boundry, it is no more of a lie than holocaust denial. I assume that you would not classify the acts taken in the OP article as PC either?

2nd April 2007, 12:46 PM	#43
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,472	Originally Posted by Alt+F4 Teaching, as any other profession, has it's share of incompetents and nut cases. An excellent point. I'm getting hit with jet lag at the moment, but it seems to me that these were independent acts of individual teachers and not an institutional policy.

2nd April 2007, 12:59 PM	#48
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Alt+F4 I'm not suggesting they be fired, I'm saying those particular teachers need some serious professional development, the whole education system shouldn't be dragged through the mud because of these "bad apples". You said that the report was a waste of time, but it's often necessary for a school district's administration to gain public support before taking bad schools and bad teachers to the cleaners. At least in the US. The UK may be different. I wouldn't know.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

2nd April 2007, 01:07 PM	#49
Alt+F4 diabolical globalist Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Department of Abandoned Places Posts: 9,804	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc You said that the report was a waste of time, but it's often necessary for a school district's administration to gain public support before taking bad schools and bad teachers to the cleaners. At least in the US. The UK may be different. I wouldn't know. I agree but UK parents are getting any hard facts from that report. If it said, "13% of UK schools don't teach the Holocaust" then that would be something educational reformers could sink their teeth into. The actual report seems like nothing more than educrats yelling the sky is falling.
	__________________ "My folks touched a lot of kids." - Jerry Sandusky

2nd April 2007, 01:14 PM	#50
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Alt+F4 I agree but UK parents are getting any hard facts from that report. If it said, "13% of UK schools don't teach the Holocaust" then that would be something educational reformers could sink their teeth into. The actual report seems like nothing more than educrats yelling the sky is falling. I'd find your arugment more credible if you stop making up words like "educrat."
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

2nd April 2007, 01:21 PM	#51
Alt+F4 diabolical globalist Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Department of Abandoned Places Posts: 9,804	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc I'd find your arugment more credible if you stop making up words like "educrat." I wish I had made it up, but I didn't. It's commonly used here in the largest school system in the U.S. - NYC
	__________________ "My folks touched a lot of kids." - Jerry Sandusky

2nd April 2007, 01:29 PM	#52
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Alt+F4 I wish I had made it up, but I didn't. It's commonly used here in the largest school system in the U.S. - NYC It's not a word. If you meant to express contempt for bureaucrats, feel free to explain how you'd educate millions of students with a consistent curriculum without a bureaucratic administration. Correcting problems such as these in a school system can take a lot of work, and forming a long report is almost always part of the process.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

2nd April 2007, 01:35 PM	#53
Alt+F4 diabolical globalist Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Department of Abandoned Places Posts: 9,804	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc It's not a word. If you meant to express contempt for bureaucrats, feel free to explain how you'd educate millions of students with a consistent curriculum without a bureaucratic administration. Correcting problems such as these in a school system can take a lot of work, and forming a long report is almost always part of the process. I have nothing against bureaucracies or long reports as long as those bureaucracies are honest and long reports have facts. Neither seems to be the case here.
	__________________ "My folks touched a lot of kids." - Jerry Sandusky

2nd April 2007, 01:39 PM	#54
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,471	What, exactly, is dishonest about the report? And what are the examples given if not facts? Just because the schools aren't named, you can't infer the report is simply lying.
	__________________ www.stormmovie.net Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie

2nd April 2007, 01:52 PM	#55
Alt+F4 diabolical globalist Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Department of Abandoned Places Posts: 9,804	Originally Posted by tkingdoll What, exactly, is dishonest about the report? And what are the examples given if not facts? Just because the schools aren't named, you can't infer the report is simply lying. I'm not saying the report is lying. Why couldn't the report at least give statistics on how wide spread this problem is? Since it doesn't, it leads to the conclusion that it is widespread which while not lying, is dishonest by omission. Is this a serious problem in the UK educational system? That report doesn't tell me. All it tells me is that a few unamed schools did not teach controversial subjects. Did this occur during just one school year or has it been going on for years? Did the teachers do this of their own volition or were they instructed to by the administrators? Even without naming the schools a good researcher could have obtained many hard facts about what is and isn't being taught in UK schools. Sorry, but this report isn't that.
	__________________ "My folks touched a lot of kids." - Jerry Sandusky Last edited by Alt+F4; 2nd April 2007 at 01:53 PM. Reason: typo

2nd April 2007, 01:54 PM	#56
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,472	Originally Posted by Alt+F4 I'm not saying the report is lying. Why couldn't the report at least give statistics on how wide spread this problem is? Since it doesn't, it leads to the conclusion that it is widespread which while not lying, is dishonest by omission. Do you mean, perhaps, that it is indeterminate or inconclusive?

2nd April 2007, 05:38 PM	#57
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,463	Originally Posted by Cleon Red flag: The Department of Education and Skills, the purported source of this report, does not mention anything about it on their web site. There is no mention of this report in the press releases, and site searches for the terms "holocaust" and "crusades" turn up little more than information about educational standards. The article is probably correct, from what I can tell. It appears to be more a case of "2 or 3" is a plural. They also mention some teachers are wary of teaching slavery, which is not mentioned in the Daily Mail article, for fear of offending people, and that teachers just want some guidance in how to deal with "controversial" topics. Since teaching the Holocaust is mandatory, I would guess that the department is following up on it's research, which it appears was well advised, and, with some new research into policies, will ensure the subjects of slavery and the Holocaust will be managed better now. It's interesting to note the beat up. The Education department has made teaching the Holocaust compulsory, it has instigated it's own research to see how teaching sensitive topics is going, and it is now going to act on that research to ensure these topics are taught. Teachers who were unsure how to handle these topics will now get the help they want on how to approach it. The article in the DM does not mention these facts, it just goes for the beat up, which is disgraceful. The Holocaust needs to be taught, and if anti-semitism is a factor, teachers should be helped in how to deal with it properly, since they are obviously not sure how they should go about it.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

2nd April 2007, 05:44 PM	#58
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,463	Originally Posted by BPSCG Link. What's going on over there? Muslim Holocaust denial and theology trump history? Did you get this at LGF? Quote: Britain's Rather Large Problem It's a beat up. It's not a "Large Problem" at all. It's a problem and it's being managed. They were on to it before the DailyMail even reported it.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

2nd April 2007, 07:10 PM	#59
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	#1..I doubt the honesty of this story. #2..If it is true, only an anti-Semitic Muslem would be against learning about the Holocaust. It is a true lesson about man's inhumanity to man and can teach valuable lessons in regards to what happens if bigotry and hatred is left unchecked. And that goes for South Africa, Bosnia, the American South, or Palestine.

2nd April 2007, 08:47 PM	#60
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,806	So, is there anything being done in the UK to combat this? History education shouldn't suffer because some idiot fundies are too sensitive to recognize reality.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

2nd April 2007, 09:21 PM	#61
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,463	Originally Posted by Tony So, is there anything being done in the UK to combat this? History education shouldn't suffer because some idiot fundies are too sensitive to recognize reality. You fell for the opening post hook, line and sinker, Tony, which I guess was the desired effect. The only reason the author of the newspaper article knew about the problem was because she read the results of a survey by the department to find out what problems there were, and how to fix them. It is official policy to teach the Holocaust, and they will be helping teachers who feel they need some guidance on how to deal with this and other issues.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

3rd April 2007, 03:11 AM	#62
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,974	Originally Posted by parky76 #1..I doubt the honesty of this story. #2..If it is true, only an anti-Semitic Muslem would be against learning about the Holocaust. It is a true lesson about man's inhumanity to man and can teach valuable lessons in regards to what happens if bigotry and hatred is left unchecked. And that goes for South Africa, Bosnia, the American South, or Palestine. I disagree with your #2 - the UK has a rather shameful history of anti-Semitism long before we had any significant Muslim population. Originally Posted by Tony So, is there anything being done in the UK to combat this? History education shouldn't suffer because some idiot fundies are too sensitive to recognize reality. The Holocaust forms part of the compulsory history section of the National Curriculum.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

3rd April 2007, 10:42 AM	#63
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,806	Originally Posted by a_unique_person You fell for the opening post hook, line and sinker, Tony, which I guess was the desired effect. No I didn't. I just found the debate over whether the article in the OP was accurate or not very insipid and pointless. My concern is whether or not the Holocaust is being taught, not whether the Daily Mail or the BBC were right. Quote: The only reason the author of the newspaper article knew about the problem was because she read the results of a survey by the department to find out what problems there were, and how to fix them. It is official policy to teach the Holocaust, and they will be helping teachers who feel they need some guidance on how to deal with this and other issues. Good.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

3rd April 2007, 11:01 AM	#64
brodski Tea-Time toad Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 15,159	Originally Posted by Alt+F4 I'm not saying the report is lying. Why couldn't the report at least give statistics on how wide spread this problem is? because it appears to be a qualitative rather than quantitative report. Qualitative reports such as this tend to be much cheaper and quicker to produce, and may indicate that further more in depth study is required. The Schools are probably not named as it is likely that in order to get as accurate information on motives from schools and teachers as as possible, the respondents were guaranteed anonymity. It is likely that even officials at eth DfES don't know which schools were interviewed. Quote: Since it doesn't, it leads to the conclusion that it is widespread which while not lying, is dishonest by omission. this was never intend to be a qualitative report, the fact that you believe that it should have been is not the fault of the authors. Quote: Is this a serious problem in the UK educational system? That report doesn't tell me. All it tells me is that a few unamed schools did not teach controversial subjects. Did this occur during just one school year or has it been going on for years? Did the teachers do this of their own volition or were they instructed to by the administrators? Even without naming the schools a good researcher could have obtained many hard facts about what is and isn't being taught in UK schools. Sorry, but this report isn't that. but this is a nice quick and cheep report which can indicate specific areas of concern for future research. I'm sorry it didn't meet your needs, but you appear to have misunderstood why this report was commissioned.
brodski Tea-Time toad Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 15,159

3rd April 2007, 11:56 AM	#65
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by Upchurch "Scopes Monkey Trial" ring any sort of bells? It was rather famous? They made a movie based on it? Are you suggesting that there are US schools today that are afraid to teach evolution because of religious extremists? And you're using Hollywood as your star witness?
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

3rd April 2007, 12:08 PM	#66
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by BPSCG Are you suggesting that there are US schools today that are afraid to teach evolution because of religious extremists? Whether he's suggesting it or not, there appear to be. Cite -- "Despite a long history of debate, legal battles and court decisions supporting the teaching of evolutionary science, there remains strong social pressure to replace the instruction of evolution with nonscientific ideologies. As a result, many teachers and professors are hesitant or afraid to teach evolution." Cite -- "Reports have surfaced that teachers are afraid to teach evolution theory because of potential criticism from religious organizations. " Cite -- "Some students here say teachers shy from teaching evolution. And some teachers say as they teach evolution, they broach it gingerly. "Timmia Hearn Feldman, a Central Junior High School student, said her father had to press school officials to teach evolution in her biology class. When it was covered, Hearn Feldman said much of the unit was passed over. "I feel like it wasn't covered sufficiently," she said. "I think a lot of teachers are afraid to teach evolution."" Your Google-fu should be able to find other examples.

3rd April 2007, 12:41 PM	#67
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by drkitten Whether he's suggesting it or not, there appear to be. Cite -- "Despite a long history of debate, legal battles and court decisions supporting the teaching of evolutionary science, there remains strong social pressure to replace the instruction of evolution with nonscientific ideologies. As a result, many teachers and professors are hesitant or afraid to teach evolution." Citation makes no actual claim that evolution is not being taught, only that some teachers are "hesitant or afraid" to teach it - not that they are refusing. Quote: Cite -- "Reports have surfaced that teachers are afraid to teach evolution theory because of potential criticism from religious organizations. " Citation goes on to cite as exhibit A the famous Dover, PA and Kansas state board of ed decisions, both of which were resounding *victories* for anti-creationist/ID supporters. Kinda like claiming that women are afraid to have abortions and then citing Roe v. Wade to back up the assertion. Quote: Cite -- "Some students here say teachers shy from teaching evolution. And some teachers say as they teach evolution, they broach it gingerly. "Timmia Hearn Feldman, a Central Junior High School student, said her father had to press school officials to teach evolution in her biology class. When it was covered, Hearn Feldman said much of the unit was passed over. "I feel like it wasn't covered sufficiently," she said. "I think a lot of teachers are afraid to teach evolution."" Your Google-fu should be able to find other examples. Citation goes on to say: Students learn about evolution and related subjects in sixth-grade life science, seventh-grade earth science, ninth-grade biology and several high school courses, including advanced biology, and ecology and environmental science. But many topics, such as dinosaurs or the age of the Earth, can be introduced as early as kindergarten. And points related to evolution pervade the curriculum. Textbooks contain whole units and chapters dedicated to evolution discussion. The Lawrence school district's sixth-grade life sciences textbook contains a unit called "heredity, evolution, and classification." It covers fossils, dinosaurs, the geologic time scale that outlines the history of life on Earth, human evolution and other topics. By comparison, the Daily Mail's report is an example of in-depth research. I don't doubt that teachers have concerns about how to teach the material when teaching evolution; no teacher wants some fundamentalist parent making his life miserable because what he's teaching conflicts with Genesis. But that's not the same as saying the teacher doesn't do it. I don't like getting up at 5:30 in the am, and I don't like getting on the highway with a bunch of cretins who believe they are exempt from the laws of man and nature. But that's not the same as saying I don't do it.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

3rd April 2007, 12:48 PM	#68
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,806	Originally Posted by BPSCG Are you suggesting that there are US schools today that are afraid to teach evolution because of religious extremists? And you're using Hollywood as your star witness? The Scopes Monkey Trail was a real event.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

3rd April 2007, 01:01 PM	#69
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,472	Originally Posted by BPSCG And you're using Hollywood as your star witness? What are you talking about? I was using an historic event as my "star witness". I referenced the movie as something you might know of the real life event from. Are you deliberately trying to evoke argumentative fallacies? Originally Posted by BPSCG Citation makes no actual claim that evolution is not being taught, only that some teachers are "hesitant or afraid" to teach it - not that they are refusing. Oh, come on. Quit using plays from Claus's "Never Concede A Point" book. It says that some teachers are afraid to teach it. That doesn't count because they don't explicitly say they "refuse" to teach it? Give it up, already. Don't be so stubborn. Originally Posted by BPSCG Citation goes on to cite as exhibit A the famous Dover, PA and Kansas state board of ed decisions, both of which were resounding *victories* for anti-creationist/ID supporters. ...which deals with the legality of ID in the classroom and is unrelated to the reports of teachers being afraid to teach the subject. Originally Posted by BPSCG I don't doubt that teachers have concerns about how to teach the material when teaching evolution; no teacher wants some fundamentalist parent making his life miserable because what he's teaching conflicts with Genesis. But that's not the same as saying the teacher doesn't do it. I don't like getting up at 5:30 in the am, and I don't like getting on the highway with a bunch of cretins who believe they are exempt from the laws of man and nature. But that's not the same as saying I don't do it. What you don't like doing is not the same thing as what you are afraid to do. I don't like giving blood, but I do it. I'm afraid to sky dive and that is the same as saying that I don't do it.

3rd April 2007, 01:24 PM	#70
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by Upchurch What are you talking about? I was using an historic event as my "star witness". I referenced the movie as something you might know of the real life event from. Are you deliberately trying to evoke argumentative fallacies? I'm sorry, but you, not I, brought up Inherit the Wind. Believe me when I tell you that you don't have to assume I am ignorant of any subject that Hollywood hasn't treated. I knew of the Titanic before seeing the movie, I knew of Beethoven and Mozart before seeing Immortal Beloved and Amadeus, I knew of the American Civil War before seeing Glory and Gettysburg, I knew of World War I before seeing Paths Of Glory, and I knew of World War II before seeing Sands of Iwo Jima, From Here to Eternity, and Schindler's List. Quote: What you don't like doing is not the same thing as what you are afraid to do. I don't like giving blood, but I do it. I'm afraid to sky dive and that is the same as saying that I don't do it. I'm afraid to drive to work. They're nucking futs out there.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

3rd April 2007, 01:26 PM	#71
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by Upchurch It says that some teachers are afraid to teach it. Especially since he specifically asked for evidence that teachers were "afraid" to teach evolution.

3rd April 2007, 01:39 PM	#72
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,472	Originally Posted by BPSCG I'm sorry, but you, not I, brought up Inherit the Wind. Actually, what I brought up was the Scopes Monkey Trial, on which Inherit the Wind was based. You pulled the Clausian technique of nitpicking on the irrelevant detail to avoid the actual meat of the subject. At no time did I refer to Inherit the Wind as an authoritative source, as you claimed. Yes, I mentioned it, but not as a substantive point. What you presented was a straw man.

4th April 2007, 08:21 AM	#73
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,149	Originally Posted by Tony The Scopes Monkey Trail was a real event. It was, but back in the 1920's. We have made a lot of progress since then.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

4th April 2007, 08:42 AM	#74
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,472	Originally Posted by Mycroft It was, but back in the 1920's. We have made a lot of progress since then. Some, yes, but it isn't like the problem has gone away.

4th April 2007, 11:15 AM	#75
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,472	Some relevant information in another thread.