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10th February 2003, 01:40 AM
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Critical Thinker
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 497
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Muscleman's challenge
Muscleman said:
--- quote: I CHALLENGE ANYONE OF U TO QUOTE TO ME ANY SO-CALLED BIBLE CONTRADICTION IF IT EXIST..I AM A CATECHIST TEACHER, PERFECT TO DEBATE WITH... I WILL WAIT FOR IT... --- I think this is worth a thread of its own... I really would like to see how can anybody fix these tons of absurdities and contradictions! So, muscleman, here it goes my first one. Let's start with an easy one: Mathew 15 says: 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death . 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. How can you fit this with "Judge not, that ye be not judged" and "Treat others as you would like to be treated"? Is not Jesus asking here to obey the old rules and kill some sinners? Or maybe he is asking everybody to stop obeying all the old rules? |
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10th February 2003, 10:22 AM
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#2 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,385
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Matthew 27:3-10 (KJV): "3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. 6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. 7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. 8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day. 9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; 10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me."
Acts 1:16-19 (KJV): "16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood." How do these verses contradict each other? In Matthew, Judas threw away the money to the priests before dying, then he went to hang himself. After that, the priests bought a field. In Acts, Judas used the money himself to buy a field. In Matthew, Judas threw away the money before dying, and then a field was bought. In Acts, the field was bought before Judas died. In Matthew, he died by hanging himself, whilst in Acts he fell headlong and his bowels gushed out. |
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It will be a great day when the US Air Force has all the bombs it needs and the NEA has to hold a bake sale in order to pay its lobbyists. |
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10th February 2003, 10:24 AM
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#3 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,385
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1 John 1:8, 10 (KJV): "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. ... If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
1 John 3:9 (KJV): "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." What do these two passages, both directed to believers, say? The first one states that Christians are not without sin, and the second one that Christians are without sin. This is a clear contradiction, in that both these statements cannot both be true. |
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It will be a great day when the US Air Force has all the bombs it needs and the NEA has to hold a bake sale in order to pay its lobbyists. |
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10th February 2003, 10:27 AM
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#4 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,385
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God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26
God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12 Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark - Gen 7:2-3 Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Terah's lifespan. Acts 7:4 states Terah was dead when Abraham left Haran. According to Gen 11:26, Terah was 70 when Abraham was born and Abraham was 75 when he left Haran. Therefore he lived 70 years (ie. his age when Abraham was born) plus 75 years (Abraham's age when he left Haran - Terah was dead at this time according to Acts 7:4) - 145 years in total. However, Gen 11:32 states he lived 205 years. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God promises Abraham the land of Canaan to live in - Gen 17:8 God did not allow Abraham to live in the promised land - Acts 7:5, Heb 11:8,9,13 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 70 - Gen 46:26-27, Ex 1:5 Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 75 - Acts 7:14 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah's field that was bought from Ephron the Hittite - Gen 50:13 Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the sons of Hamor - Acts 7:15-16 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 2:40 The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God's plague kills 23,000 - Num 25:9 God's plague kills 24,000 - 1 Cor 10:8 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Hebrews' journeying - Mount Hor (where Aaron dies), Zalmonah, Punon - Num 33:37,38,41,42 The Hebrews' journeying - Beeroth Benejaakan, Moserah (where Aaron dies), Gudgodah, Jotbathah - Deut 10:6,7 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God forbids killing - Ex 20:13 God commands killing - Ex 32:27 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Solomon's reign. Acts 13:16-22 numbers the years from when the Hebrews left Egypt to David beginning his reign as 40 (Wilderness) + 450 (Judges) + 40 (Saul) = 530 years. According to 1 Chron 29:27, David reigned 40 years, so Solomon became king (when David died) 530 + 40 years (of David's reign) = 570 years. However, 1 Kings 6:1 states Solomon's 4th year of rule (when he began the Temple building) was 480 years after the Hebrews left Egypt, ie. he began his rule 476 years after the Hebrews left. In sum, there is a contradiction of 94 years. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saul inquired of God, but God did not answer him - 1 Sam 28:6 Saul died because he did not seek guidance from God - 1 Chron 10:13,14 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesse had seven children - 1 Sam 16:10-13 Jesse had eight children - 1 Chron 2:13-15 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- David slays Goliath - 1 Sam 17:4,7,50 Elhanan slays Goliath - 2 Sam 21:19 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joram his son, Ahaziah his son, Joash his son, Amaziah his son, Azariah his son, Jotham his son - 1 Chron 3:11,12 Joram the father of Uzziah, and Uzziah the father of Jotham - Matt 1:8,9 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Asa removes the high places - places - 2 Chron 14:2 Asa did not remove the high places - 1 Kings 15:11-14 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Nacon - 2 Samuel 6:6 Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Chidon - 1 Chron 13:9 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- David takes 1700 horsemen - 2 Sam 8:4 David takes 7000 horsemen - 1 Chron 18:4 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- David destroys 700 chariots - 2 Sam 10:18 David destroys 7000 chariots - 1 Chron 19:18 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Satan incites David to number the people - 1 Chron 21:1 God incites David to number the people - 2 Sam 24:1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joab's numbering of the army. 1,100,00 soldiers in Israel; 470,000 soldiers in Judah - 1 Chron 21:5 Joab's numbering of the army. 800,000 soldiers in Israel; 500,000 in Judah - 2 Sam 24:9 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- David buys the land for the altar from Ornan for 600 shekels of gold - 1 Chron 21:24-25 David buys the land for the altar from Araunah for 50 shekels - 2 Sam 24:24 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Solomon had 4,000 stalls and 12,000 horsemen - 2 Chron 9:25 Solomon had 40,000 stalls and 12,000 horsemen - 1 Kings 4:26 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Temple pillars were 18 cubits - 1 Kings 7:15 The Temple pillars were 35 cubits - 2 Chron 3:15 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The molten sea held 2000 baths - 1 Kings 7:23,26 The molten sea held 3000 baths - 2 Chron 4:2,5 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The importance of wisdom - Proverbs 4:7 The unimportance of wisdom - 1 Cor 1:19 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The joy of wisdom - Proverbs 3:13-15 The misery of wisdom - Ecc 1:18 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How the righteous suffer like the wicked - Ecc 9:2, Isaiah 57:1 How the righteous flourish - Psalm 92:12-13 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No ills befall the righteous - Proverbs 12:21 How the righteous suffer - Job 12:4,6, Hebrews 11:35-37 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The wicked will die prematurely and will suffer - Psalm 55:23, Proverbs 10:27, Job 18:5,11,18,19 The wicked lifespan is long and they enjoy life - Psalm 73:3-5,12, Job 21:7-9 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Man is to be holy - Leviticus 11:44, 19:2, 20:7 Only God is holy - Revelation 15:4 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Drinking alcohol is acceptable - Deuteronomy 14:26, John 2:7-11, 1 Timothy 5:23 Drinking alcohol is not acceptable - Proverbs 20:1, 23:31-34, Hosea 20:1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jehoiachin was 8 years old when he began his reign - 2 Chron 36:9 Jehoiachin was 18 years old when he began his reign - 2 Kings 24:8 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The captain takes 5 men of the king's council - 2 Kings 25:19 The captain takes 7 men of the king's council - Jeremiah 52:25 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Baasha dies and his son Ela begins his reign over Israel - this was in the 26th year of king Asa of Judah - 1 Kings 16:6,8 In the 36th year of Asa's reign, Baasha attacks Judah 2 Chron 16:1 NB. 2 Chron has Baasha still fighting 10 years after 1 Kings says he died! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The infancy narratives. According to Luke 2:21-39, Jesus is taken to the Jerusalem Temple eight days after he is born; the family then go up to Nazareth. In Matthew 2:14-23, after being born the family flee in Egypt and stay there until Herod dies; even on returning, they avoid Judea and go up to Nazareth. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus began ministry after John the Baptist is imprisoned - Mark 1:14,15,17. Jesus's began ministry whilst John was free and before imprisoned - John 1:28-29, 3:25-30 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus baptised - John 3:22 Jesus did not baptise - John 4:2 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The exorcism of Legion - being 2 men - Matt 8:28 The exorcism of Legion - being 1 man - Mark 5:1,2 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The healing on leaving Jericho was 1 blind man - Mark 10:46,47 The healing on leaving Jericho was 2 blind men - Matt 20:29,30 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No one has ascended into heaven before Jesus - John 3:13 Elijah ascended into heaven - 2 Kings 2:11 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Respect for parents taught - Exodus 20:12, Leviticus 19:3, Deuteronomy 5:16, Ephesians 6:1-2 Disrespect and rejection of parents taught - Matt 8:21- 22, 10:37, 19:29, 23:9, Luke 12:51,53, 14:26 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- People choose not to come to Jesus - John 5:40 People can only come to Jesus if God wills it - John 6:44 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus judges - John 5:22,27, 9:39, 2 Corinthians 5:10 Jesus does not judge - John 8:15, 12:47 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christians to hate their brothers - - Luke 14:26 Whoever hates their brother cannot have eternal life - 1 John 3:15 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus refuses to give signs - Matthew 12:38,39, Mark 8:12, Luke 11:29 Jesus did give signs - John 3:2, 20:30, Acts 2:22 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Man judged/saved by faith - John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 20:31, Acts 2:21, 16:30,31, Rom 1:17, 5:1,9,11,18, 10:9, Gal 2:16, Phil 3:9, Eph 2:8,9 Man judged/saved by works and lifestyle - Psalm 62:12, Proverbs 24:12, Matthew 7:21, 16:27, 19:16,17, 25:31- 46, Luke 14;13-14, John 5:29, Acts 10:35, Rom 2:6,7,9,10, 1 Cor 3:8 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One of the disciples was lost - John 17:12 None of the disciple were lost - John 18:9 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus refers to David eating the consecrated bread in the time of Abithar - Mark 2:25,26 In fact David ate the consecrated bread in the time of Ahimelech - 1 Sam 21:1-6 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Disciples being sent out not to wear sandals - Matthew 10:9,10 Disciples being sent out to wear sandals - Mark 6:8,9 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No man can retain the spirit after death - Eccles 8:8 Peter restores spirit of Tabitha after death - Acts 9:37,40 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Believers not to worry about providing for family - Luke 14:26,33, 18:29,30 Believers must provide for family - 1 Timothy 5:8 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus did not bear witness to himself - John 5:31 Jesus did bear witness to himself - John 8:14,18 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The law/commandments to remain for ever - Matthew 5:17- 19, Luke 16:17 The law has ended - Romans 7:4, Eph 2:15, Col 2:14 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Simon and Andrew's home was in Capernaum - Mark 1:21,29 Simon and Andrew's home was in the same place as Philip's - Bethsaida - John 1:44 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God has given all things into Jesus' hands - John 3:35 God has not given all things into Jesus' hands - Matt 20:23, John 5:19 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everyone sins - 2 Chronicles 6:36, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Rom 3:10,12,23 Believers do not sin - 1 John 3:6,9, 5:18 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The anointing and entry into Jerusalem. Matthew and Mark detail how Jesus rode into Jerusalem in Matt 20:1-13, Mark 11:1-11. It was after this that he was anointed at Bethany - Matt 26:6-16, Mark 14:3- 11. But in John he is anointed (12:1-8) and it is after this that he rides into Jerusalem (12:12-15). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Last Supper. The Synoptics make it clear this was the Passover meal - Matt 26:19, Mark 14:16, Luke 22:13. However in John, the meal was held on the day before the Passover - 13:29, and after the meal the Passover had still not begun - 18:28, and after the trial, it was the day ("Preparation") for the Passover. The Passover was on the day after Jesus was crucified (ie. because the Passover fell on the Saturday sabbath, it is therefore called a 'high day') - John 19:31. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows - Luke 22:34, John 12:38 Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows twice - Mark 14:30, 14:72 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter is warned he will deny Jesus after the last supper and having left the upper room - Matt 26:20-34, Mark 14:17-30 Peter is warned he will deny Jesus during the last supper before leaving the upper room - Luke 22:33-39, John 13:37-38/ 18:1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus' trial before the sanhedrin was at night and in morning he was taken to Pilate - Matthew 26:57-68, 27:1-2 Jesus' trial before the sanhedrin and being taken to Pilate was in the morning - Luke 22:66-71, 23:1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Simon of Cyrene carries Jesus' cross - Matthew 27:32 Jesus carries his cross - John 19:17,18 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus was physically descended from David - Romans 1:1- 3. The genealogy in Matt 1:1-16 only relates to Joseph who had nothing to do with the conception. The genealogy in Luke 3:23-38 again only mentions Joseph and therefore physical Davidic descent must be shown through Mary - Jesus' only contact with humanity if virgin born. However, Luke 1:36 says Mary was related to Elizabeth who was of the Aaronic line (Luke 1:5) and therefore not the Davidic line, so with virgin birth, Davidic descent, a strict prerequisite for messiahship is prevented. In sum, Jesus couldn't be the Christ. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Both robbers revile Jesus - Matt 27:44 Only one robber reviles Jesus and the other believes - Luke 23:41-43 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus tells the believing robber he will be with him in paradise that day - Luke 23:43 Jesus was in the grave following his death and did not ascend to heaven - Acts 2:24,31, John 20:17 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God forsakes Jesus - Mark 15:34 Jesus is inseparable from God - John 10:30, 14:10, 16:32 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The confirmation Jesus is dead. In Mark 15:43-45, Joseph of Arimathea asks Pilate for Jesus' body, and Pilate is unaware of whether he is dead; only after sending a centurion and receiving this confirmation does he allow Joseph to take the body. However in John 19:31-33,38, Pilate actually authorises the leg-breaking to ensure they have all died and then authorises Joseph to remove the body. NB. Mark 15:42 states it was evening, ie. the sabbath had already begun (the Jewish 'day' beginning at 6pm), when Joseph asks for the body. However, burial was not allowed on this day, showing the fictitiousness of the story. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Resurrection. Who went to the tomb ? Matthew-2 Marys; Mark-2 Marys and Salome; Luke-at least 5 women; John-Mary Magdalene, What was seen ? Matthew-Earthquake with angel sitting outside on the recently-moved stone; Mark-Stone already moved and a young man sitting inside; Luke-Stone already moved with two men standing inside; John-Stone moved. No one seen on 1st visit, but two angels sitting inside after two earlier visits. When did the woman/women leave to go to the tomb ? Matthew-Towards dawn; Mark-Very early; Luke-At early dawn; John-Still dark (NB. John states it was still dark when Mary arrived at the tomb). What did man/men/angel/angels say ? Matthew-Jesus was risen and disciples to go to Galilee; Mark-As Matthew; Luke-Jesus had risen: John-Asks why Mary is crying. What do the women/woman do next ? Matthew-they run away but meet Jesus who repeats angel's instruction; Mark-They flee and SAY NOTHING TO ANYONE. This obviously contradicts the other three in which the women do go and tell the disciples (original Mark ended at 16:7); Luke-They go and tell disciples; John-Mary meets Jesus and they talk. What is 1st conversation with the risen Jesus ? Matthew-Women on way from tomb; Luke-The two disciples on road to Emmaus; John-Mary Magdalene. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The time between the resurrection and ascension ? Matthew-At least the time to reach Galilee (60-70 miles north); Luke-clearly one day only (see 24:13,33,36,50 - it is made very clear that Jesus rose, made all his appearances and ascended back to heaven on the same day); John-at least a week accepting John 20 as the original end to the Gospel, but with the John 21 appendix this means it was even longer as this has a Galilean appearance; Acts-40 days. An attempt to reconcile John's visit of just Mary Magdalene whilst still dark with the Synoptics where there are several women and it is daytime, is by saying John's was an earlier one, ie. the one in the Synoptics was a second one. However this cannot be so as John has Mary Magdalene seeing the empty tomb (20:1) and in the Synoptics when the women go to the tomb they ask about who would roll the stone away (Mark 16:3). However Mary Magdalene was with them (Mark 16:1) and she had already seen that the stone had been moved away and therefore they would already know this from her 1st visit. Furthermore, Luke makes any appearance at, or journey to Galilee absolutely impossible as it has everything happening in the area of Jerusalem with the disciples being told to stay there until Pentecost, and the conclusion being Jesus' ascension from nearby Bethany. This is made clear - in Luke the first appearance is to the two travelling to Emmaus (10 miles West of Jerusalem) and 24:13 states this was "that very day"; the two then go "that same hour" to the eleven in Jerusalem (24:33); Jesus then appears whilst they are still explaning what they had seen (24:36). Jesus then tells them to STAY IN JERUSALEM UNTIL PENTECOST (24:49). As Luke 24:51 has the ascension on the same day as the resurrection this prevents any Galilean appearances by Jesus to the eleven as in Matt and John. Luke's account makes nonsense of Matt having Jesus tell the women to instruct the disciples to go up to Galilee (Matt 28:10) if he was going to see them himself later that day (as in Luke and John), and furthermore see them in Jerusalem. Also, Luke makes it clear that the eleven were told to stay in Jerusalem from the day of the resurrection to Pentecost, but Matt has them travelling up to Galilee (28:16) as does John (21:1ff). Important to note is Mark 16:7, ie. that the women 'said nothing to anyone' - all three Gospels contradict this by them telling the disciples which then leads into their accounts. Because of Mark 16:7, this is really made impossible. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Luke also has Jesus appearing to "the eleven" on the same day as the resurrection (24:33-36), but John states Thomas was missing on this appearance and it was a week later that Jesus actually appeared to all eleven - with Thomas then being present (20:24,26). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The chronology of Paul's life. Acts (1)Paul converted on the way to Damascus (9:1-8). (2)He goes to Ananias in Damascus and stays there 'several days' (9:20). (3)After 'some time'*, Paul goes to Jerusalem (9:23,26) and meets the apostles there (9:27). (4)Paul preaches in Jerusalem, but due to threats to kill him, he is sent to Tarsus (9:30). (5)Relief to Jerusalem and Judea taken by Paul & Barnabas (2nd visit) (11:30) (6)Paul goes to Jerusalem (3rd time) (12:25)** (7)Paul goes to Jerusalem (3rd or 4th time) (15:1ff).(vii) Galatians. (1)Paul is converted (1:16). (2)He does not go to Jerusalem, but to Arabia and then Damascus (1:17) (3)After 3 years, Paul goes to Jerusalem, meeting only Cephas and James there (1:18-19) staying only 15 days. (4)He then goes to the regions of Syria and Cilicia (1:21). (5)14 years later, Paul goes to Jerusalem with Barnabas and Titus (2:1). (6)Paul confronts Cephas at Antioch (2:11). (7)No further information. * The 'some time' in Acts 9:19 is not clear as to how long this was; different translations render this 'some time passed' (Jerusalem), 'after a number of days' (Moffatt); the literal Greek is "'many' with the view of being sufficient"; however it is rendered, it is difficult to reconcile this with the three years of Gal 1:18. ** It is not clear whether 12:25 is a return to Jerusalem, or a return to Antioch from Jerusalem; if the former, and the Acts 15 visit is the Gal 2:1-10 one, then in Acts it would be the fourth visit, whilst Paul states it was only the second. Paul's method of counting in Gal. is not absolutely clear, ie. whether his 14 years in Gal 2:1 is 14 years after his starting point in Gal (ie. his conversion) or 14 years after the first Jerusalem visit 3 years after his conversion which he had mentioned immediately beforehand (ie. a total of 17 years after his conversion). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Numerous others problems arise when trying to reconcile the two accounts, eg. Acts has Paul in Jerusalem and Judea in his early life (21:17 then 22:3) and as a persecutor of the church there (7:58, 9:1-2,13,21, 26:10) which makes Paul's comment that (Gal 1:22) he was not known by sight by the churches in Judea even after his time in Jerusalem, Syria and Cilicia (1:17- 21) appear impossible. Furthermore when Paul has a dispute with Peter at Antioch about Gentile fellowship in Gal 2, why does he not remind him of what was agreed at the Acts 15 conference on this very subject ? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Abraham was justified by faith - Rom 4:1-5 Abraham was justified by works - James 2:22-24 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Man does not die for his ancestors' sin - Deut 24:16, 2 Kings 14:6, Ezek 18:20 Man does die for his ancestors' sin - Ex 20:5, 34:6-7, 2 Sam 12:13-18, Isa 14:21, Rom 5:12,19, 1 Cor 15:22 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Elijah and Moses appear many centuries after they died - Mark 9:2-4 Only God is immortal - 1 Tim 6:15-16 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus to be buried for three days and nights - Matt 12:40 Jesus buried for one day and two nights - Mark 15:42,43, John 20:1 (These texts show the burial did not take place until Friday night and the tomb was empty before Sunday morning). Jesus is NOT dead for "three days and three nights" whether present-day or Jewish time-reckoning is used. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus was the first person to rise from the dead - Acts 26:23, Rev 1:5 Jesus was not the first person to rise from the dead - 2 Kings 4:32,35, Luke 7:12-15, Matt 9:18,25, 11:5, 27:52, John 11:44 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Holy Spirit given on Easter Sunday - John 20:19,22 The Holy Spirit given at Pentecost - Acts 2:1-4 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus warns disciples he is to leave them - John 16:5,7,28 Jesus assures disciples he will always be with them - Matt 28:20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Holy Spirit not given until Jesus' death - John 7:39 The Holy Spirit given before Jesus' birth - Luke 1:41,67 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judas dies by hanging himself - Matt 27:5-7 Judas dies by swelling up - Acts 1:18 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Women buy anointing spices for Jesus after the sabbath - Mark 16:1 Women buy anointing spices for Jesus before the sabbath - Luke 23:56 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul's vision. Acts 9:7 states the men with Paul STOOD speechless, HEARING the voice but NOT SEEING anyone. Acts 22:9 states they did NOT HEAR the voice. Acts 26:14 states they all FELL to the ground and DID HEAR the voice. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God is impartial towards people - Acts 10:34, Rom 2:11, Gal 2:8, Eph 6:9 God is partial towards people - Rom 8:29-30, 9:11-13, Matt 10:5-6, 15:22-25, Luke 1:30 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Those without the law, will perish without it - Rom 2:12 Where there is no law, there can be no transgression - Rom 4:15 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Salvation only available to a few who have been chosen - Matt 7:14, 22:14, Luke 12:32, 13:24, John 6:37,65, 15:16,19, Rom 8:29, 9:11-23, Eph 1:4, Salvation available to those who want it - Matt 7:7,8, 11:28, John 3:16, 5:40, 7:37, Acts 2:21, Rev 3:20 NB. Prov 16:4 states God actually made the unsaved for 'the day of trouble' (ie. damnation). In contrast to texts that state Jesus died for the elect/a small number, there are others that confirm, or at least suggest everyone will be saved by Christ - John 1:29, 4:42, 1 Cor 15:29, Heb 2:9, 1 John 4:14. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Satan is free to act as he pleases - Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zech 3;1, Matt 4:1, 1 Pet 5:8 The angels who rebelled against God are chained up - Jude 6 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James and John ask Jesus for special places in the kingdom - Mark 10:35-37 It is the mother of James and John who asks Jesus for special places for them - Matt 20:21-22 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No one born of God sins - 1 John 3:9 Everyone sins - Rom 3:23, 1 John 1:8 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No one is righteous - Rom 3:10 There are righteous - James 5:16 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable - Matt 12:32, Mark 3:29 God forgives all sins - 1 John 1:7 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Love your enemies - Matt 5:44 Refuse to greet your enemies - 2 John 10, enemies are cursed by Paul - Gal 1:9, Paul asks that his enemies mutilate themselves - Gal 5:12 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Those who go into the grave will never arise - Job 7:7,9, 14:10,12 Those who go into the grave will arise - John 5:28-29, 11:24, 1 Cor 15:12-18,20-23,52, Rev 20:4 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The dead are unconscious - Job 14:12, Ecc 9:5, Dan 12:2 The dead are conscious - Mark 9:4, Luke 16:22-23, Rev 6:9-10 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The earth will exist for ever - Ecc 1:4 The earth will be destroyed - 2 Pet 3:10 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No one has ever seen God - Ex 33:17,20, John 1:18, 1 Tim 6:15-16, People have seen God - Gen 32:30, Ex 24:9-10, 33:11,21- 23, Isa 6:5, Deut 5:24, Amos 9:1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God is not responsible for confusion - 1 Cor 14:33 God is responsible for confusion - Isa 45:7 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All will swear to God - Isa 45:22-23 Jesus forbids swearing - Matt 5:34 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God can do anything - Mark 10:27, Luke 1:37 God is limited in what he can do - Judges 1:19, Mark 6:5-6 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God wants everyone to be saved - 1 Tim 2:3-4, 2 Pet 3:9 God does not want everyone to be saved - Prov 16:4, Mark 4:11-12, Rom 9:18, 2 Thess 2:11 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The returnees from Babylonian exile in 537/536 BCE. 42,360 in Ezra 2:64. 29,818 in Ezra 2:3-60. 31,089 in Nehemiah 7:7-65. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God is not angry for long - Psa 30:5, 103:9, Micah 7:18 God is angry for a long time - Num 32:13, Rev 14:11, 20:10 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God never lies and hates lying - Ex 23:1, Num 23:19, Prov 12:22, Titus 1:2 God himself lies - 1 Kings 22:23, 2 Chron 18:22, 2 Thess 2:11 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God does not repent (ie. regret an action/change his mind) - Num 23:19, 1 Sam 15:29, Mal 3:6 God does repent (ie. regret an action/change his mind) - Gen 6:6-7, Ex 32:14, 1 Sam 15:35, 2 Sam 24:16, 1 Chron 21:15, Jer 18:8,10, 26:3,13,19, 42:10, Ezek 24:14, Joel 2:13, Amos 7:3, Jonah 3:10 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The earth has no foundation - Job 26:7 The earth does have foundations - 1 Sam 2:8, Psa 104:5 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God feeds and cares for all life - Psa 145:15-16 God does not feed and care for all life - Deut 28:48, Isa 5:13, 8:21, 50:2 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God is warlike - Ex 15:3, Psa 24:8, Rev 19:11,13 Man should be peaceful - as God is - Matt 5:9, John 14:27, Rom 15:33, 2 Thess 3:16 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Graven images not to be made - Ex 20:4 Graven images are to be made - Ex 25:18 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The earth is God/Jesus' - Psa 24:1, 1 Cor 10:26, Rev 1:5 The earth is the devil's - John 12:31, 2 Cor 4:4 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God dwells in light - Psa 104:1,2, 1 Tim 6:15-16, 1 John 1:5 God dwells in darkness - 1 Kings 8:12, 2 Chron 6:1, Psa 18:11, Psa 97:1-2 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus is God - John 1:1, John 20:288 Jesus is inferior/subordinate to God - John 14:28, 1 Cor 11:3, 15:28 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Synoptics have Jesus clearing the Temple at the end of his ministry (Mark 11:15-17 & par) but John has this at the very beginning (2:13-16). Also, John has Jesus travelling back and forth between Galilee and Jerusalem but the synoptics have him starting in Galilee & making the one journey south to Jerusalem ending in his death. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God is gracious, loving, merciful, good, forgiving, and perfect - Ex 34:6, Deut 32:4, 2 Sam 22:31, Psa 86:5, 100:5, 106:1, 111:4,7, 136:1, 145:8-9, Lam 3:33, Joel 2:13, Hab 1:12-13, Mark 10:18, 1 John 4:8,16 God slaughters, is vengeful, does evil, defiles, destroys and creates woes - Ex 32:14, Num 31:1-18, Deut 2:30,34, 7:2,16, 20:10-20, 1 Sam 6:19, Job 42:11, Isa 45:7, Jer 18:5,8,11, 26:3,13,19, 42:10-11, Lam 3:38, Ezek 6:12-13, 20:25-26, Amos 3:16, Nahum 1:2, Jonah 3:10 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God sees everything and is omnipresent - Psa 11:4, Prov 15:3, Job 34:21, Jer 16:17, 23:24, Heb 4:13 God does not see everything and is not omnipresent - Gen 3:9-10, 11:5, 18:20-21, Ex 3:8, 19:11, 18,20, Micah 1:3 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God did not dwell in the house (Temple) Solomon built - Acts 7:48 God did dwell in the house (Temple) that Solomon built - 1 Kings 8:13 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God is always near - Psa 46:1, 145:14, 18-19, James 4:8 God is not always near - 1 Sam 28:6, Psa 10:1, 22:1,2, Matt 27:46 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God creates all life out of the waters - Gen 1:20-21 God creates all life out of the earth - Gen 2:19 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The doers of the law will be justified - Rom 2:13 No one is justified by the law - Rom 3:20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Disciples will be persecuted and martyred - Luke 21:16, Acts 7:59-60, 8:1, Rev 6:9 Disciples will not be harmed - Luke 21:18 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christians to obey authorities - Rom 13;1, 1 Pet 2:13- 14 Christians to obey God rather than authorities - Acts 5:29 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Disciples given power to cure all ills - Matt 10:1, Luke 9:1 Disciples could not cure all ills - Matt 17:18-20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Centurion goes to Jesus for his servant to be healed - Matt 8:5-13 Centurion sends elders to Jesus to ask for his servant to be healed - Luke 7:1-10 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God's word and law abides for ever - Matt 5:18, 1 Pet 1:25 God's word and law has been cancelled - Eph 2:15, Col 2:14 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Governors are God's ministers for the good and protect the innocent - Rom 13:1,3, 1 Pet 2:13-14 The Governor Pontius Pilate has Jesus crucified - Mark 15:15, Luke 23:11,24,25, John 19:1,6 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christ was raised a spirit being - 1 Cor 15:44-45, 1 Pet 3:18 Christ was physically raised in the body - Luke 24:39,42-43, John 20:26-27 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The coming kingdom of God will be visible - Daniel 2:44 The coming kingdom of God will not be visible - Luke 17:20-21 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God is spirit - John 4:24 God has feet - Psa 18:9, arms - Jer 27:5, wings - Psa 36:7, eyes - Deut 11:12, Psa 34:15, a mouth - Isa 1:20, Deut 8:3, ears - 2 Chron 6:40, a nose - Ex 15:8, a heart - Gen 6:6, legs - Gen 3:8 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Bible teaches forgiveness - Matt 6:14-15, Rom 12:17-19, Eph 4:32, Col 3:13 The Bible teaches punishment and vengeance - Gen 9:6, Ex 21:23-25,29, Lev 24;16,23 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God is one - Deut 6:4 God is plural - Gen 1:26, 11:6,7, Isa 6:8 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The (Incomplete) Flood. Gen 6:4 refers to a race called the Nephilim. Later in Gen 7:11-24 there is the account of the Flood in which "every living thing" was killed (7:23) except Noah and his family; however, in Num 13:33 the Nephilim are still around ! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The families of Japheth, Ham and Shem all have their own languages - Gen 10:5,20,31 There is only one language over the whole earth - Gen 11:1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is the Midianites who sell Joseph to P^Ê-\Ðar - Gen 37:36 it is the Ishmaelites who sell Joseph to Potiphar - Gen 39:1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Levites' service to be from age 30 to 50 - Num 3:3,23,30,35,39,43,47 The Levites' service to be from age 25 to 50 - Num 8:23 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sisera killed whilst asleep - Jud 4:20-21 Sisera killed whilst standing and drinking milk - Jud 5:25-27 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God's attributes are unknowable - Job 11:7-9 God's attributes are knowable - Rom 1:20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Beersheba given its name by Abraham - Gen 21:31-33 Beersheba given its name by Isaac - Gen 26:32-33 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saul killed by an Amalekite - 2 Sam 1:5-10 Saul killed by Philistines - 2 Sam 21:22 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There were 3300 chief officers on Temple building - 1 Kings 5:16 There were 3600 chief officers on Temple building - 2 Chron 2:18 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There were 550 who had charge of the people - 1 Kings 9:23 There were 250 who had charge of the people - 2 Chron 8:10 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jehoshaphat removed the high places - 2 Chron 17:1,6 Jehoshaphat did not remove the high places - 2 Chron 20:31,33 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Zedekiah was Jehoiachin's brother - 2 Chron 36:9-10 Zedekiah was Jehoiachin's uncle - 2 Kings 24:17 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The sundial to go back 10 degrees as a sign that God would heal Hezekiah's boil - 2 Kings 20:7-11 The sundial to go back 10 degrees as a sign God would defend the city against the Assyrians -Isa 38:4-8 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The rich cannot enter heaven; the kingdom of God is for the poor - Luke 6:20, Matt 19:24, James 5:1 God rewards by bestowing wealth and disciples can be rich - Job 42:10, Matt 27:57 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Satan entered Judas at the last supper - John 13:27 Satan entered Judas before the last supper - Luke 22:1- 3 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Food offered to idols should be avoided - Acts 15:29 It is of no importance if food offered to idols is eaten - 1 Cor 8:1,4,7,8 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It was those who accused Jesus and were responsible for his death who buried him - Acts 13:27-29 It was Joseph of Arimathea, a disciple, who buried Jesus - Matt 27:59-60 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christ is the only master - Matt 23:10 Employers are masters - Eph 6:5,9 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There were six generations inclusive between Joram and Jotham - 1 Chron 3:11-12 There were three generations inclusive between Joram and Jotham - Matt 1:8-9 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus' home was at Capernaum - Mark 1:9,24, 2:1 Jesus' home was in Judea - John 4:43-45 NB. In John, Jesus leaves Jerusalem in Judea and goes to Galilee because "a prophet has no honour in his own country" - therefore Judea must have been his home country - contradicting Mark. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Believers will be deceived into leaving the faith - 1 Tim 4:1, Heb 6:4-6, Gal 3:1, Rev 2:5 God will protect believers from being led astray - Psa 31:23, 37:28,32,33, John 10:27-29 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus never changes - Heb 13:8 Jesus does change - he dwelt with the Father (John 17:5), was born an infant with human weaknesses (Luke 2:7,52), became separated from God (Matt 27:46), then died (Matt 27:50), was then in Hades (Acts 2:31), was then raised from the dead in a glorified body (1 Cor 15:45) and ascended into heaven where he mediates (1 John 2:1, 1 Tim 2:5) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Moses was inarticulate - Ex 4:10 Moses was not inarticulate - Acts 7:22 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Only God is to be called 'father' - Matt 23:9 Various people can be called 'father' - 1 Cor 10:1, Eph 6:1-4, 1 John 2:13-14, Matt 15:4 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus prayed to God to be saved from death, and he was heard - Heb 5:7 Jesus prayed to God to be saved from death and was not heard (ie. he was executed the next day) - Luke 22:41,42,44,47,54, 23:33 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prepare your defence if challenged for your faith - 1 Pet 3:15 Don't bother beforehand about what is to be said if challenged for your faith - Mark 13:11 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God instructs man to live on vegetarian diet - Gen 1:29-30 Any food can be eaten - Gen 9:3, Acts 10:12-13, Rom 14:2 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Martyred believers cry out for blood-vengeance - Rev 6:9-10 Believers should love/forgive their enemies - Matt 5:44, 6:15,18:32-35, Luke 6:27-28 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mary and Martha's home. In Luke 10:38-42, Mary and Martha's home is between Samaria (mentioned in 9:57) and Jericho (mentioned in 18:35). It is after leaving Jericho (that was AFTER where they lived) that Jesus reaches Bethany (19:29). However, according to John (11:18-20, 12:1-3), their home was in Bethany. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is wrong to judge others - Matt 7:1, Luke 6:37, Rom 2:1, 14:10 Others can be judged - Matt 23:13-33, John 8:44, Rom 1:27,29-32 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At the feeding of the 5000, 200 denarii would have fed the crowd - Mark 6:37 At the feeding of the 5000, 200 denarii would not have fed the crowd - John 6:7 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God tells Zedekiah he will be captured but die peacefully - Jer 34:2-5 Zedekiah is capture, has his eyes taken out and is imprisoned to the day he dies - Jer 52:10-11 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus refuses to disclose who he is, or allow others to do this - Matt 12:15-16, 16:16-17,20, Mark 3:11-12, 8:29-30, Luke 9:20-21 Jesus tells the Samarians (John 4:25-26), the Jews (John 5:39, 8:42,58, 10:24-25,30), the crowds (John 6:40), others (John 9:35-38), who he is -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Gospel not to be taken to the Samaritans - Matt 10:5-6 The Gospel taken to the Samaritans - John 4:4-41, Acts 8:5,14,15,25 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Women are to be obedient and submissive to men - 1 Cor 11:3,7-9, 14:33-35, Eph 5:22-24, 1 Tim 2:11-15, Titus 2:4-5, 1 Pet 3:21 There are no sexes in Christ as both are "one" - Gal 3:28 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let others see your good works - Matt 5:16 Do not let others see your good works - Matt 6:1,4 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stephen says the Jews persecuted the prophets and killed those who foretold Christ's coming - Acts 7:52 Moses was a prophet who foretold Christ's coming (eg. Acts 7:37) but was not killed - Deut 34:5,8; David was also a prophet (Acts 2:25,30), but he also died naturally |
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It will be a great day when the US Air Force has all the bombs it needs and the NEA has to hold a bake sale in order to pay its lobbyists. |
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10th February 2003, 10:29 AM
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#5 |
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Graduate Poster
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Posts: 1,385
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And we can go on and on and on and on and on.
Finally we come to the most devastating critique of the Bible. Just because it's written doesn't necessarily make it so. Forgot to add the link I copied the above stuff from hem.passagen.se/nicb |
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It will be a great day when the US Air Force has all the bombs it needs and the NEA has to hold a bake sale in order to pay its lobbyists. |
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10th February 2003, 10:31 AM
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#6 |
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woo ban clan
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The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw |
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10th February 2003, 10:46 AM
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#7 |
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Critical Thinker
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 497
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Oh, man, you spoilt the fun!
 If we had post contradictions one by one, maybe muscleman would write laaarge explanations for months!  Now he will not take the challenge at all... Still, your link is great; I will store that list for some proper use. 
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10th February 2003, 11:27 AM
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#8 |
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Thinker
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 247
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And the longest post in history award goes to Agammamon!
I posted a link in response to muscleman's 'challenge' but he hasnt yet commented on it. |
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"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened." Sir Winston Churchill "Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." Richard Dawkins "Our ignorance is God; what we know is science." Robert Ingersoll "The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry." Richard Dawkins "Paranormal phenomena have a habit of going away whenever they are tested under rigorous conditions. This is why the $1 million reward of James Randi is safe." Richard Dawkins |
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10th February 2003, 12:24 PM
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#9 |
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Guest
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All will swear to God - Isa 45:22-23 Jesus forbids swearing - Matt 5:34 ---- Do you really think that the swear in the first one is the same as the swear in the second one? |
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10th February 2003, 07:50 PM
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#10 |
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Thinker
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Posts: 181
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"If the book the Bible and my brain are both the work of the same Infinite God, whose fault is it that the book and my brain do not agree?" - Robert Ingersoll "No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude." - Karl Popper |
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10th February 2003, 08:40 PM
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#11 |
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LOL. It just goes to show that skeptics and atheists copy and paste lists like these ad nauseum, without really understanding their contents. Even if I explain a lot of them, I'm sure you'd paste in 100 more for me to explain. You'd always find your own 'missing link' for me to yet explain. |
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10th February 2003, 09:09 PM
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Fluid Mechanic
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Los Alamos, NM
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Agammamon:
I'm an atheist, and I've had a lot of arguments with Christians about this sort of thing. There's one thing you have to realize: they're VERY good at wiggling out of apparent contradictions in the Bible. If there's any concievable interpretation (no matter how implausible) under which the cited passage is NOT contradictory, they'll seize upon it. It would have to be an absolutely stark, unambiguous logical contradiction, involving no ill-defined words, that would trip them up. To be honest, I've not found a Biblical contradiction yet that they couldn't find a way out of. To demonstrate this (and because Muscleman appears to be currently absent), I'd like to try my hand at "explaining" away some of these. After all, if you can't trap an atheist, good luck trapping a theist. Here goes:
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See how silly it is? I could go on and on like this. I'm sure you could think of some similar kind of tortured explanation for most of the contradictions you posted. So challenge me! Give me the one or two that seem like the most stark, unexplainable contradictions in the Bible, and I betcha I can come up with some crazy, convoluted way out that just barely squeeks by. Even if I can't think of a way out, I bet some Christian can. They have a lot of practice. |
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10th February 2003, 09:19 PM
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#13 |
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Seems to be correctly in context to me.
Isaiah 45
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After we're told that everyone will SWEAR to god. Though appropriately enough, when people DO 'swear to god', they're usually lying through their grinning teeth. Actually, there's another one in Isaiah 45:25, if you look.
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But of course, I always take a simple, literalist perspective, ignoring the "advanced" scholarly concept of "interpreting" bible scripture to mean literally anything I want it to. |
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10th February 2003, 09:58 PM
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#14 |
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Fluid Mechanic
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Los Alamos, NM
Posts: 2,651
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Re: Muscleman's challenge
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I haven't figured out the swear vs. no swear one yet, but I'm sure there's some angle... |
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10th February 2003, 11:11 PM
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#15 |
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Thinker
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 181
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"If the book the Bible and my brain are both the work of the same Infinite God, whose fault is it that the book and my brain do not agree?" - Robert Ingersoll "No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude." - Karl Popper |
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10th February 2003, 11:26 PM
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Portland, Oregon
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HAHAHHAHHAHAH. It's amazing that believers can't understand the difference between apologies and explanations. They love apologies for the bible contradictions, they don't like the actual meaning.
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All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine |
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10th February 2003, 11:43 PM
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Graduate Poster
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11th February 2003, 01:07 AM
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#18 |
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Graduate Poster
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Location: Nottingham
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"There is no refutation of Darwinian evolution in existence. If a refutation ever were to come about, it would come from a scientist, and not an idiot." - Richard Dawkins |
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11th February 2003, 02:30 AM
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Graduate Poster
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11th February 2003, 02:42 AM
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Occasional Poster
Join Date: Sep 2001
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How do you explain Matthew 1:21-23
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel"--which means "God is with us" " misquoting Isaiah 7:14? "Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the young woman is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, And hath called his name Immanuel". " from Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible:
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15th February 2003, 03:59 AM
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Re: Muscleman's challenge
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But anyways u got this wrong, I checked matthew 15, give me the right chqapter so I can check it (I have to check my bible because i have debated w/ many atheists b4 and they just change the exaxt quote.).. |
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15th February 2003, 04:13 AM
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#22 |
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Graduate Poster
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Location: Nottingham
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"There is no refutation of Darwinian evolution in existence. If a refutation ever were to come about, it would come from a scientist, and not an idiot." - Richard Dawkins |
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15th February 2003, 04:19 AM
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Now, when Judas hanged himself in Matthew, even then they still called the place where he hanged himself "The field of blood"...Normally, i personally dont think that when a person is hanged, that blood will gush out, but since it is what is called, then there must be more that happened to Judas than just remain being hanged, otherwise it wont be called "Field of blood"... Acts clarified that. My mother used to teach me that when Judas hanged himself, his guts spilled out as well.. But the bible didnt clearly stated in detail how did the "field of blood" got in the picture. I say the rope broke, he fell headlong, then spilled his guts, making it the field of blood.. What are other explanations to it? Acts didnt say he didnt hang, it just said "HE FELL HEADLONG", it didnt say "HE JUMPED AND HIS GUTS OPEN", he have "FELL" unconsciously, being dead already from being hanged. Now if Acts said "HE JUMPED AND SPILLED HIS GUTS", then I would say that is so contradictory because Matthew said he hanged himself.. About the land, when Jesus was in ministry, the apostles were offered money by many crowds, even before the crucifixion and betrayal. But Jesus didnt want to charge anyone, but preached the goodnews free of charge.. DID JUDAS OBEYED JESUS COMMANDS? OBVIOUSLY HE DONT HAVE RESPECT FOR HIM, HE EVEN TURNED HIM IN TO THE CHIEFS. SO I BELIEVE HE KEPT SOME OF THE MONEY AT THE TIME, AND BUOGHT SOME LAND. Matthew said the Pharisees used his wages to buy "POTTER'S FIELD". While Acts said he bought some of his wages before with "PARCEL OF LAND"....... CANT YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE? ITS NOT THE SAME LAND THAT WAS SPENT.....Apostles were offered money during Jesus evangelization..Judas obviouslt kept some of it...... U JUST GOT DEBUNKED.......NEXT QUESTION??? |
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15th February 2003, 04:25 AM
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Whenever your sins are forgiven, you are cleansed and are born again. Being born again obviously makes you free from PAST mistakes, (sacrament of penance..) THUS MAKING YOU SINLESS, until u commit a sin again.. As Jesus said to those he forgave "Go on home and sin no more".... Thats a simple sacrament called sacrament of reconciliation...WHEN WE ARE BORN OF GOD, WE ARE BORN IN PEFECTION... Be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect..... NEXT QUESTION??? |
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15th February 2003, 04:30 AM
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#25 |
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I have studied the scriptures for years, your a joke if you think there is any moral contradcition....... Everything above can be explained....I have checked the so-called "atheists who are dummys and think the bible is contradictiory.com" many of their webpages, saying there are THOUSANDS, WHEN THE FACT IS THERE ARE ZERO'S.. SO YES, PESKANOV IS RIGHT, POST IT ONE BY ONE, AND ILL HUMILIATE YOU ONE BY ONE, GUARANTEE IT..........
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15th February 2003, 05:01 AM
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#26 |
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"God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26
God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19" Ill give u a preview of how Ill humiliate your pathetic attempts... Genesis is a symbolic parables..The church doesnt teach (atleast currently) that it must be taken literally, and females literally was a former ribcage... The first story was more prophetic, while the second one is historical, and it continued all the way to story of Noah's ark, to this etc. While the first one ended in "COMPLETION", heaven and earth were "FINISHED", so God shouldnt have business working with anything relating to earth no more, "God blessed the seventh day and made it holy because on it HE RESTED FROM ALL THE WORK HE HAD DONE IN CREATION".. God rested in the first story, while in the second story he still worked and is in contact with humans.... Once again the first story is prophetic. We are all animals...Thats how we all started out, the first story in Genesis clearly stated that out...The catholic church believes in evolution because of this.. It wasnt until about thousands of years ago that God have in contact with the human species, our brains evolve to the higher level... It was then that we were made in "God's image", but that didnt happen until later on after the creation... The first story said that when God gave man all the authority over the fish in the sea, birds of the air, etc. it was written that "AND GOD SAW HIS CREATION, AND IT WAS GOOD"........ While in the second story, when God created animals for man, it was also written "NONE WERE SUITABLE PARTNERS FOR HIM"..... The second story of Genesis is a symbolic scripture concerning the human race, AND GOD DIDNT OBVIOUSLY REST FROM HIS WORK, ALL THE WAY TO NOAH'S AND LATER ON IN YEARS, UNLIKE THE FIRST STORY, THIS IS "NOT" A PROPHETIC STORY, BUT MORE LIKE HISTORICAL ONE... The sevent day God resting in Genesis is the final day of judgment, IT OBVIOUSLY HAVENT ARRIVED YET, BUT IT WILL....IN THE FIRST STORY WHEN THE ANIMALS AND EVERYTHING IN EARTH WAS GIEVN TO MAN, AND GOD SAID "BE FRUITFULL AND MULTIPLY AND SUBDUE THE EARTH" AND HE ALSO ENDED "AND IT WAS GOOD, SO GOD RESTED FROM ALL HIS WORK".. THAT HASNT TOOK PLACE YET, THE SEVENT DAY HAVENT ARRIVED YET, AND GOD HAVENT RESTED FROM ALL HIS WORK, THE JUDGMENT DAY WILL ARRIVE....BELIEVE IT OR NOT... Got it? If u have intellect, u should be able to see it the way I do....BUt your an atheist, therefore u obviously dont have one.....
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15th February 2003, 07:01 AM
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#27 |
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Critical Thinker
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 497
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Welcome back muscleman!
I am very happy to see you here again, and I read your clarifications with interest. I really enjoyed the Judas history. You can be sure that if I see this topic raised elsewhere, I will tell everybody which is the best interpretation; again, thanks! About my initial cite, is coming from King Jame's version. I searched another one in bible gateway, here you have another it: http://www.biblegateway.org/cgi-bin/...sh&version=NIV Matthew 15 Clean and Unclean 1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!" 3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father ' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 8" 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men. Please, Muscleman, provide other translation if you want. I don't care about your translation, I am only interested in your opinion! |
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15th February 2003, 07:57 AM
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#28 |
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Guest
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Ok, I read it Peskanov..
Humans in general judge the external matter, but God sees us differently.. Take the Pharisees for example, they are so focused on judging others, what they do, etc. but not remembering their deeds (kinda like me sometimes, ). They are so focused in how to eat right, but not focused on how to live right. They judge others when they have not noticed the speck of their eye...Jesus didnt come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. It may appear changed, as much as a seed turning into a tree, the outside shell appeared changed, but the inside didnt.. Jesus were just debating with them for the sake of the law, when the pharisees quoted about how to eat right, Jesus inturn quoted about how to live right (Law of Moses about blaspheming parents.) because that was their weakness, something they always do but say "God allowed me to do it because I am a priest" although the law says otherwise, BUT JUST BECAUSE JESUS QUOTED THE LAW, IT DOESNT MEAN THAT LAW IS COMPLETE... Jesus certainly dont want to stone to death those who blaspheme their parents. take the Prodigal son as an example. He rejected his father, etc. left, but the father humbly accepted his son back. This is what Jesus wanted, we are like sheeps, if one go astray, the sheperd will leave the many to look for that one lost sheep....... Just as Jesus quoted "U heard them say eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, but I say offer your right cheek if they struck u on the left cheek,(love enemies..)". "Tell them that they are wrong about sin and wrong about God's judgment"- Jesus... "If they donot know sin, they cannot commit sin"........ People are not accountable for a law they are not aware its wrong to break.. SO DONT SAY THAT EVERYONE IN THE PAST WENT TO HELL BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT LEARNED TO LOVE THEIR ENEMIES AS JESUS TAUGHT THEM...THEIR KNOWLEDGE AT THE TIME ISNT AS FRUITFULL AS IN JESUS GENERATION. JUST AS A KID DOESNT KNOW AS MUCH AS AN ADULT...... "Mysteries hidden for generations now revealed"..- Paul... "The kingdom of God can b likened to a mustard seed, it starts out small but when grows it is so huge that birds of the air dwell at its branches and make their nest."- Jesus.... |
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15th February 2003, 10:47 AM
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#29 |
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Evil Genius
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,270
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Quote:
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Just thought I'd make muscleman's response easier to understand by parsing it next to the relevant Bible quotes. I don't feel the need to add anything, I think it speaks for itself... 
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__________________
You can tell a lot about a fellow's character by his way of eating jellybeans. - Ronald Reagan |
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16th February 2003, 02:50 AM
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#30 |
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Critical Thinker
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 497
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Muscleman, you have a really interesting version of the words "fulfill the law"; let's see:
Bible 1.0 says: "stone your son" Bible 2.0 says: "forgive your son" So, the outside change, and the inside don't, isn't it? Ok, I will take the general bible message as "be good!" then. You are saying that Jesus rejects the old punishments, aren't you? It seems the old Yahve changed his mind after all... Ok, back to the thread: Matthew 5 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works , and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law , till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. So let's go back to the question: - Jesus said we must not punish because we are all sinners. - Jesus said we must obey the old laws. Which old laws are we suppossed to obey? Those which doesn't mention killing the sinner? Well, Muscleman, are we supossed to follow this law, for example? Deuteronomy 23 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD. Your turn...
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22nd February 2003, 03:00 PM
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#31 |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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Even St. Paul and Peter have their disagreements, they both went thier different ways to propagate the good news, again we are special in our own way. Moses may have said "Stone your son if he is disrespectfull"...Thats his understanding.. Thousands of years later Jesus said "Forgive your blasphemous son who is disrespectfull.."...Thats the DOGMA, what God really wants.. Moses just didnt have clear understanding of what God wants.. Just as much as St. Paul, St. Peter, all saints doesnt have a clear understanding of what God really wants... "A righteous man sins 7 times a day."- Bible..
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He is all-knowing..Go to this.. http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showt...threadid=13327if u want to debat about omniscience/freewill argument...Ill debate you from there...
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"Judge not lest ye be judged'..." Give to Ceasars whats Cesars"... Dont judged, but be obedient as well..Confused? ask more in detail then..
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Originally posted by Peskanov
Which old laws are we suppossed to obey? Those which doesn't mention killing the sinner? Well, Muscleman, are we supossed to follow this law, for example? Deuteronomy 23 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD. Your turn...
If my computer broke, i certainly dont have the answer to fixing it, I need someone WITH THAT FIELD OF KNOWLEDGE to fix the problem.. So your question is "what should we obey and what not?" Thats why u cant take the bible out of context, FOR IF U TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT IN ANY BOOK IN THE WORLD....IT WILL ALWAYS CONTRADICT.. FOR INSTANCE...WHEN MOSES SAID "KILL THE BLASPHEMOUS AND DISRESPECTFULL KID"... THEN YOU SAID THAT "THE BIBLE SAID TO KILL A KID"....THAT CONTRADICTS BECAUSE U TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT... Jesus also said "Peter you are my rock and upon my rock I will build my church AND NOT THE GATES OF HELL SHALL PREVAIL AGAINST IT, WHATEVER YOU BIND ON EARTH WILKL BE BOUND ON HEAVEN, WHATEVER U LOOSED ON EARTH WILL BE LOOSED IN HEAVEN".. Anymore questions? Ask away.... |
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23rd February 2003, 03:09 AM
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#32 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,558
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Muscleman...
So there are no contradictions? but when shown numerous contradictions you say they are due to flawed interpretations of the one (non-contradictory) principle, that one (non-contradictory) principle just happens to be the one you subscribe to.... Thats handy. Just pick one of the contradictory statements you don't like and say it is wrong. Why don't you take the white out to the bible and delete all the "wrong" stuff? It would make things easier wouldn't it? Does the pope know you claim Moses didn't know what he was talking about? |
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And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how. |
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23rd February 2003, 07:42 AM
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#33 |
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Muse
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 561
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Muscleman, which 'church' is this? Many 'churches' (Religions) DO take Genesis literally, and reject the idea that it is just a bunch of 'symbolic parables'. If you take 100 religions (that believe in the Bible & Genesis) then you will probably find 100 different versions of what parts are 'fact', and what parts are symbolic. Peter |
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23rd February 2003, 09:24 AM
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#34 |
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Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,470
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I would welcome greatly his reconciliation of the Mathean and Lukan birth stories--both linked to historical events which occured roughly ten year appart. If I may for a moment, I had the opportunity to witness a person with similar claims to expertise regarding biblical texts--albeit with a far firmer grasp of elementary grammer--attempt this task. She dither'd about trying to quote Strobel--this did not work very well. Eventually, she just declared--by some fiat--rather similar to this individual--that she had reconciled them. I fear her declaration had about the same dissmal success as my declaration that I have a rather torrid affair with Uma Thurmon--who knew she breeds mastifs. . . . Anyways, since her "conclusion" contradicted a mere hundred years of biblical scholarship, I invited her to submit it to the main journal: The Journal of Biblical Literature. I received assurances from the editors that they would consider her theories seriously and submit them to peer review. Of course, one confessed that her claims reminded him of "his sainted mother-in-law who insists we never landed on the Moon." Thus, I invite the individual to reconcile those narratives. I would recommend he perform this task with slightly greater attention to some of the more common grammatical rules, such as that sentences traditionally contain a noun as well as a verb in some general agreement with one another. Given his boasts, I am sure we can submit this to the respected journal. I Stand Upon the Field of Honor waiting for an answer. I would hope I had not arrived so early in the morning in vain. --J.D. |
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23rd February 2003, 12:00 PM
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#35 |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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bible contradictions
there is one litle contradiction that really bugs me,muscleman,
"god created light on the first day, and the stars and the Sun(the light source) on fourth day" whoever wrote the Bable didn't think it thru very well,did they? there's this "the skeptic's annotated bible",if you'd like to see hundreds more goofy contradictions.
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23rd February 2003, 12:25 PM
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#36 |
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Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,470
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HERETIC!!!!!!
HE created the LIGHT of the SPIRIT on the FIRST DAY!!! Then the mundane LIGHT of the WORLD later . . . at approximately 2:30 P.M. GMT!!!!! [!--Ed.] --J. "Just Do Not Ask about the Water in the Earth" D. |
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23rd February 2003, 08:54 PM
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#37 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,086
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If he's perfect why aren't we perfect? Did he screw up somewhere? |
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23rd February 2003, 08:55 PM
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#38 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,055
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__________________
If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name in a Swiss bank. -Woody Allen (1935 - http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/deist1999/ |
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24th February 2003, 12:31 AM
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#39 |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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Quote:
If it was written "Thou shall not kill." And if a killer (a dummy ignorant of morality.) were to put a white out on that sentence, he might write it over "Not"..So now it is written... "Thou shall....kill".. So again, your not making sense, I aM HERE TO DISPROVE THE CLAIM OF SO-CALLED BIBLE CONTRADICTIONS, u may face some who claimed they can do it, they might be fake,BUT I AM A REAL DEAL, talk to me.... |
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24th February 2003, 12:34 AM
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#40 |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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It is started by St. Paul himself in Rome where he evangelized.. It is "Universal" in latin "Catholic", founded for all nationalities, for the world, gentiles or jews... The tomb of St. Peter (Petra) is still in Vatican, Rome... The Roman Catholic church..... |
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