If I wanted to bend a spoon "using my mind"

6th August 2003, 02:29 PM

Where would I look to begin my "training" ?

CFLarsen · 6th August 2003, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Crossdress
Where would I look to begin my "training" ?

Here!

6th August 2003, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Here!

so you have to have an accomplice ?

how did randi do it ?

CFLarsen · 6th August 2003, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Crossdress
so you have to have an accomplice ?

Ehhh....do I?

Quote:

Originally posted by Crossdress
how did randi do it ?

Dunno. Ask him.

6th August 2003, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Ehhh....do I?

Dunno. Ask him.

what I mean is, do you have to have another person with you or can you bend the spoon on your own ?

is there video of randi doing it ?

Pyrrho · 6th August 2003, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Crossdress
Where would I look to begin my "training" ?

Look up "Guy Bavli" on the Internet.

http://www.magictalk.com/cgi-bin/reviews.cgi?read=164

Quinn · 6th August 2003, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pyrrho
Look up "Guy Bavli" on the Internet.

http://www.magictalk.com/cgi-bin/reviews.cgi?read=164

A better source, IMHO, is the video Psychokinetic Silverware by Banachek, aka Steve Shaw, one of the spoon benders in Project Alpha. You should be able to get it from any magic dealer, or you can order it directly from Banachek at:

http://www.magicinspirations.net/

Quinn

Jeff Corey · 6th August 2003, 08:04 PM

Right here is a spoon that was not only bent, but actually dissolved into two pieces by Randi at an annual meeting of the New York Area Skeptics about ten years ago. My wife, Ellen, served as his "girl assistant". He bent it above her head, so she couldn't observe the moves. We have a bad video (fixed camera, too far away) around here somewhere.
P&T in "How to play with your food" have a hint: Bend it when nobody's looking.

7th August 2003, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
Right here is a spoon that was not only bent, but actually dissolved into two pieces by Randi at an annual meeting of the New York Area Skeptics about ten years ago. My wife, Ellen, served as his "girl assistant". He bent it above her head, so she couldn't observe the moves. We have a bad video (fixed camera, too far away) around here somewhere.
P&T in "How to play with your food" have a hint: Bend it when nobody's looking.

I'd really like to see some vid of randi's bending style.

freestyle.

Jeff Corey · 7th August 2003, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Crossdress
I'd really like to see some vid of randi's bending style.

freestyle.

I was in the front row center seat and and had a closer view than the video camera, which was more than 10 rows back. There is nothing to be seen on the video that I was not better positioned to see.
It looked like magic to me.

Voob · 7th August 2003, 04:36 PM

Quote:

A better source, IMHO, is the video Psychokinetic Silverware by Banachek, aka Steve Shaw, one of the spoon benders in Project Alpha.

Indeed, I just got mine a few weeks ago, and it's great. And quite easy.

volant · 7th August 2003, 07:12 PM

I always enjoyed Ben Harris' Gellerism Revealed."

Peter S. · 7th August 2003, 07:58 PM

The Banachek video is fabulous!! Get it.

Brian · 8th August 2003, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
Bend it when nobody's looking.

That's not a hint. That's it. The skill is making sure nobody's looking.

Jeff Corey · 9th August 2003, 07:28 PM

Technically not true. If you prep it beforehand, somebody could be looking, but they might not see.

Brian · 9th August 2003, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
Technically not true. If you prep it beforehand, somebody could be looking, but they might not see.

Ok. True. But it could be said that's all that's required to perform the trick.

Skeptical Greg · 12th August 2003, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Here!

What I like from your video: ( paraphrased )

" If he can bend it with his mind, why does he need to hold it in his hand/s ? "

homunculus · 30th August 2003, 05:59 AM

Try Ben Harris' Gellerism. Never read it myself but it is reputedly very good.

Paul.

homunculus · 30th August 2003, 06:04 AM

Oh, and it's a lot more difficult than "bend it when no-one is looking". Geller himself is a lot more subtle about it than this. His best spoon bends appear to happen right there between his fingers. He lets spectators "feel" the metal becoming soft...

This kind of bend needs some preparation, though. Nothing that takes very long.

Paul.

Ian Rowland · 20th September 2003, 07:24 AM

Forget 'Gellerism Revealed'. Approaches metal bending the way a close-up magician would approach it as a magic trick. Probably doesn't teach you what you want to know.

Forget the Guy Bavli video. Not the best you can buy.

The Banachek video is the best by far, but it won't do you any good unless you are willing to put the time in to learn to do this stuff properly and present it well.

clusterm2 · 21st September 2003, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian

That's not a hint. That's it. The skill is making sure nobody's looking.

How does this explain the well documented cases of the spoons continuing to bend after being handed over to say, a journalist?
Some sort of chemical? Admittedly the spoon was one of Gellers own but still........pm me PLEASE

Quinn · 23rd September 2003, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by clusterm2
How does this explain the well documented cases of the spoons continuing to bend after being handed over to say, a journalist?
Some sort of chemical? Admittedly the spoon was one of Gellers own but still........pm me PLEASE

Well documented by whom, exactly? By the journalist holding the spoon, who had just had his mind sent into a minor tizzy by witnessing something that seemed impossible? Possibly corroborated by other journalists witnessing the scene, who were in a similar state and were all saying things like, "Oh my God, it IS still bending, look!"? And let me guess, the documentation was based not on verifiable physical evidence, but on the sworn statements of these reputable, professional journalists who were absolutely sure that they really saw the spoon continuing to bend, and there's no way they could be mistaken about such a simple matter?

Entertainers and frauds alike feed their families on the basis of such well-documented cases.

Quinn

homunculus · 23rd September 2003, 06:30 AM

How does this explain the well documented cases of the spoons continuing to bend after being handed over to say, a journalist?

If you watch a Geller video, it's actually pretty obvious he's cheating if you start with that assumption. Suddenly, you can see how he does it, and it really isn't that hard to do...

Anyway, a very Geller-sque bend is being exposed on the TV show "Pyschic Secrets Revealed" here in the UK. Friday, 8.30pm, Channel 5. Not sure wether it is being exposed this week, or next week, but it will be.

The magician on the show uses two different techniqes. The first bend really does look like the spoon is curling before your eyes - but it is actually already bent, under cover of misdirection. It's an optical illusion created by subtle handling.

The second uses a pre-prepared spoon, and is exactly how Geller has done it on TV. This is where he lets a spectator hold the spoon handle as it becomes soft whilst they are holding it.

The spoon is fatigued almost to breaking-point already, which is why for the denoument, the end falls off.

As for spoons "continuing to bend", I would chalk that off to suggestible minds, and fertile imaginations.

This has never been replicated under controlled conditions, which leaves us with some anedotal reports. If that is all we need, then presumeably the Lock Ness Monster, Bigfoot, and every other mythical creature ever claimed to have been spotted, must also exist?

Paul.

clusterm2 · 14th October 2003, 06:09 PM

So there is absolutely no other method ie chemical than physically bending the spoon however it's done?

richardm · 21st October 2003, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by clusterm2
So there is absolutely no other method ie chemical than physically bending the spoon however it's done?

Why do you think there might be?

clusterm2 · 23rd October 2003, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by richardm

Why do you think there might be?

Haven't got a clue, that's why I asked. I NEVER presume that I know all.

richardm · 24th October 2003, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by clusterm2

Haven't got a clue, that's why I asked. I NEVER presume that I know all.

Fair enough. Since you said "i.e." I assumed that someone had suggested to you that chemical forces were at work, and that you were trying to verify it.

epepke · 27th October 2003, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by clusterm2
So there is absolutely no other method ie chemical than physically bending the spoon however it's done?

Maybe I can get away with writing this because none of the actual tricks I've heard of involving spoon-bending use this technique.

You could always cast a spoon out of Woodsmetal. It's an interesting alloy that is quite solid at room temperature but melts at a very low temperature. That and a small heat source and, well, you figure it out.

Of course, it's much more fun to give someone a really hot cup of coffee and a Woodsmetal spoon. You have to watch to make sure they don't actually drink it. But then, you want to watch anyway, don't you?

Brown · 27th October 2003, 06:49 PM

It seems to me that I once saw an apparatus advertised in a magic magazine along these lines:

BEND KEYS!
SPOONS! NAILS! EVEN COINS!
ABSOLUTELY UNDETECTABLE!

The ad naturally did not disclose the nature of the apparatus, but it's a good guess that it involves applying some degree of leverage to the item. Even if you don't have a special leverage apparatus, you can sometimes find such apparatus on the spur of the moment. Mr. Randi's "The Truth About Uri Geller" gives some examples of impromptu leverage apparatus (and how one piece of apparatus was hazardous to Uri's trousers).

epepke · 28th October 2003, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brown
The ad naturally did not disclose the nature of the apparatus, but it's a good guess that it involves applying some degree of leverage to the item.

Eeeurgh! Must! Not! Violate! Group! Charter!

I chafe at this, though. Perhaps this magical secrecy stuff was valid when interested kids could buy a magic trick for a nickel at the drug store. And I'm willing to go into a magic shop and pay big bucks for a really nice set of well made Chinese rings or some stripper decks. But when a kid is expected to shell out $20 bucks for a badly xeroxed piece of paper and a piece of badly sawn metal, it bugs me.

6th August 2003, 02:29 PM	#1
Crossdress Guest Posts: n/a	If I wanted to bend a spoon "using my mind" Where would I look to begin my "training" ?
Crossdress Guest Posts: n/a

6th August 2003, 02:32 PM	#2
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,805	Re: If I wanted to bend a spoon "using my mind" Quote: Originally posted by Crossdress Where would I look to begin my "training" ? Here!
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

6th August 2003, 02:42 PM	#3
Crossdress Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Re: If I wanted to bend a spoon "using my mind" Quote: Originally posted by CFLarsen Here! so you have to have an accomplice ? how did randi do it ?
Crossdress Guest Posts: n/a

6th August 2003, 02:46 PM	#4
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,805	Re: Re: Re: If I wanted to bend a spoon "using my mind" Quote: Originally posted by Crossdress so you have to have an accomplice ? Ehhh....do I? Quote: Originally posted by Crossdress how did randi do it ? Dunno. Ask him.
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

6th August 2003, 02:47 PM	#5
Crossdress Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Re: Re: Re: If I wanted to bend a spoon "using my mind" Quote: Originally posted by CFLarsen Ehhh....do I? Dunno. Ask him. what I mean is, do you have to have another person with you or can you bend the spoon on your own ? is there video of randi doing it ?
Crossdress Guest Posts: n/a

6th August 2003, 05:51 PM	#6
Pyrrho Man in Black Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,696	Re: If I wanted to bend a spoon "using my mind" Quote: Originally posted by Crossdress Where would I look to begin my "training" ? Look up "Guy Bavli" on the Internet. http://www.magictalk.com/cgi-bin/reviews.cgi?read=164
Pyrrho Man in Black Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,696

6th August 2003, 06:47 PM	#7
Quinn Breathtakingly blasphemous. Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,000	Re: Re: If I wanted to bend a spoon "using my mind" Quote: Originally posted by Pyrrho Look up "Guy Bavli" on the Internet. http://www.magictalk.com/cgi-bin/reviews.cgi?read=164 A better source, IMHO, is the video Psychokinetic Silverware by Banachek, aka Steve Shaw, one of the spoon benders in Project Alpha. You should be able to get it from any magic dealer, or you can order it directly from Banachek at: http://www.magicinspirations.net/ Quinn
	__________________ It's not a matter of living life without mystery or wonder. It's a matter of living life without the approval of people who ignorantly assume that by rejecting the irrational, I experience no mystery or wonder. And frankly, I do just fine without that.

6th August 2003, 08:04 PM	#8
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,404	Right here is a spoon that was not only bent, but actually dissolved into two pieces by Randi at an annual meeting of the New York Area Skeptics about ten years ago. My wife, Ellen, served as his "girl assistant". He bent it above her head, so she couldn't observe the moves. We have a bad video (fixed camera, too far away) around here somewhere. P&T in "How to play with your food" have a hint: Bend it when nobody's looking.

7th August 2003, 07:03 AM	#9
Crossdress Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by Jeff Corey Right here is a spoon that was not only bent, but actually dissolved into two pieces by Randi at an annual meeting of the New York Area Skeptics about ten years ago. My wife, Ellen, served as his "girl assistant". He bent it above her head, so she couldn't observe the moves. We have a bad video (fixed camera, too far away) around here somewhere. P&T in "How to play with your food" have a hint: Bend it when nobody's looking. I'd really like to see some vid of randi's bending style. freestyle.
Crossdress Guest Posts: n/a

7th August 2003, 10:35 AM	#10
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,404	Quote: Originally posted by Crossdress I'd really like to see some vid of randi's bending style. freestyle. I was in the front row center seat and and had a closer view than the video camera, which was more than 10 rows back. There is nothing to be seen on the video that I was not better positioned to see. It looked like magic to me.

7th August 2003, 04:36 PM	#11
Voob Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 316	Quote: A better source, IMHO, is the video Psychokinetic Silverware by Banachek, aka Steve Shaw, one of the spoon benders in Project Alpha. Indeed, I just got mine a few weeks ago, and it's great. And quite easy.
Voob Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 316

7th August 2003, 07:12 PM	#12
volant Muse Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The sea Posts: 969	I always enjoyed Ben Harris' Gellerism Revealed."
	__________________ I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. Your death, that is.

7th August 2003, 07:58 PM	#13
Peter S. Magician Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Arlington, MA Posts: 832	The Banachek video is fabulous!! Get it.
	__________________ Wil In Space Wil in the Haunted forest Please vote for Wil In Space HERE

8th August 2003, 09:10 PM	#14
Brian Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,780	Quote: Originally posted by Jeff Corey Bend it when nobody's looking. That's not a hint. That's it. The skill is making sure nobody's looking.
Brian Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,780	__________________ O' beautiful, for spacious skies But now those skies are threatening They're beating plowshares into swords For this tired old man that we elected king Armchair warriors often fail And we've been poisoned by these fairy tales The lawyers clean up all details Since daddy had to lie -Don Henley

9th August 2003, 07:28 PM	#15
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,404	Technically not true. If you prep it beforehand, somebody could be looking, but they might not see.

9th August 2003, 08:48 PM	#16
Brian Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,780	Quote: Originally posted by Jeff Corey Technically not true. If you prep it beforehand, somebody could be looking, but they might not see. Ok. True. But it could be said that's all that's required to perform the trick.
Brian Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,780	__________________ O' beautiful, for spacious skies But now those skies are threatening They're beating plowshares into swords For this tired old man that we elected king Armchair warriors often fail And we've been poisoned by these fairy tales The lawyers clean up all details Since daddy had to lie -Don Henley

12th August 2003, 09:05 AM	#17
Skeptical Greg Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' Posts: 8,839	Re: Re: If I wanted to bend a spoon "using my mind" Quote: Originally posted by CFLarsen Here! What I like from your video: ( paraphrased ) " If he can bend it with his mind, why does he need to hold it in his hand/s ? "
	__________________ A quantum of solace, is better than no solace at all.. " Don't come home a' drinkin' , with lovin' on your mind "... Loretta Lynn

30th August 2003, 05:59 AM	#18
homunculus Scholar Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 93	homunculus Try Ben Harris' Gellerism. Never read it myself but it is reputedly very good. Paul.
homunculus Scholar Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 93

30th August 2003, 06:04 AM	#19
homunculus Scholar Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 93	Oh, and it's a lot more difficult than "bend it when no-one is looking". Geller himself is a lot more subtle about it than this. His best spoon bends appear to happen right there between his fingers. He lets spectators "feel" the metal becoming soft... This kind of bend needs some preparation, though. Nothing that takes very long. Paul.
homunculus Scholar Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 93

20th September 2003, 07:24 AM	#20
Ian Rowland New Blood Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 20	Forget 'Gellerism Revealed'. Approaches metal bending the way a close-up magician would approach it as a magic trick. Probably doesn't teach you what you want to know. Forget the Guy Bavli video. Not the best you can buy. The Banachek video is the best by far, but it won't do you any good unless you are willing to put the time in to learn to do this stuff properly and present it well.
Ian Rowland New Blood Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 20

21st September 2003, 09:40 AM	#21
clusterm2 Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Wirral Posts: 117	Quote: Originally posted by Brian That's not a hint. That's it. The skill is making sure nobody's looking. How does this explain the well documented cases of the spoons continuing to bend after being handed over to say, a journalist? Some sort of chemical? Admittedly the spoon was one of Gellers own but still........pm me PLEASE

23rd September 2003, 12:53 AM	#22
Quinn Breathtakingly blasphemous. Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,000	Quote: Originally posted by clusterm2 How does this explain the well documented cases of the spoons continuing to bend after being handed over to say, a journalist? Some sort of chemical? Admittedly the spoon was one of Gellers own but still........pm me PLEASE Well documented by whom, exactly? By the journalist holding the spoon, who had just had his mind sent into a minor tizzy by witnessing something that seemed impossible? Possibly corroborated by other journalists witnessing the scene, who were in a similar state and were all saying things like, "Oh my God, it IS still bending, look!"? And let me guess, the documentation was based not on verifiable physical evidence, but on the sworn statements of these reputable, professional journalists who were absolutely sure that they really saw the spoon continuing to bend, and there's no way they could be mistaken about such a simple matter? Entertainers and frauds alike feed their families on the basis of such well-documented cases. Quinn
	__________________ It's not a matter of living life without mystery or wonder. It's a matter of living life without the approval of people who ignorantly assume that by rejecting the irrational, I experience no mystery or wonder. And frankly, I do just fine without that.

23rd September 2003, 06:30 AM	#23
homunculus Scholar Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 93	How does this explain the well documented cases of the spoons continuing to bend after being handed over to say, a journalist? If you watch a Geller video, it's actually pretty obvious he's cheating if you start with that assumption. Suddenly, you can see how he does it, and it really isn't that hard to do... Anyway, a very Geller-sque bend is being exposed on the TV show "Pyschic Secrets Revealed" here in the UK. Friday, 8.30pm, Channel 5. Not sure wether it is being exposed this week, or next week, but it will be. The magician on the show uses two different techniqes. The first bend really does look like the spoon is curling before your eyes - but it is actually already bent, under cover of misdirection. It's an optical illusion created by subtle handling. The second uses a pre-prepared spoon, and is exactly how Geller has done it on TV. This is where he lets a spectator hold the spoon handle as it becomes soft whilst they are holding it. The spoon is fatigued almost to breaking-point already, which is why for the denoument, the end falls off. As for spoons "continuing to bend", I would chalk that off to suggestible minds, and fertile imaginations. This has never been replicated under controlled conditions, which leaves us with some anedotal reports. If that is all we need, then presumeably the Lock Ness Monster, Bigfoot, and every other mythical creature ever claimed to have been spotted, must also exist? Paul.
homunculus Scholar Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 93	__________________ "By the time God has been depersonalized to the point of being some abstract and timeless principle of beauty or goodness, it is hard to see how the existence of God could explain anything. What would be asserted by the 'explanation' that was not already given in the description of the wonderful phenomenon to be explained?" - Daniel C. Dennett

14th October 2003, 06:09 PM	#24
clusterm2 Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Wirral Posts: 117	So there is absolutely no other method ie chemical than physically bending the spoon however it's done?

21st October 2003, 07:10 AM	#25
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,477	Quote: Originally posted by clusterm2 So there is absolutely no other method ie chemical than physically bending the spoon however it's done? Why do you think there might be?
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,477	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

23rd October 2003, 02:17 PM	#26
clusterm2 Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Wirral Posts: 117	Quote: Originally posted by richardm Why do you think there might be? Haven't got a clue, that's why I asked. I NEVER presume that I know all.

24th October 2003, 03:46 AM	#27
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,477	Quote: Originally posted by clusterm2 Haven't got a clue, that's why I asked. I NEVER presume that I know all. Fair enough. Since you said "i.e." I assumed that someone had suggested to you that chemical forces were at work, and that you were trying to verify it.
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,477	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

27th October 2003, 06:10 PM	#28
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 6,136	Quote: Originally posted by clusterm2 So there is absolutely no other method ie chemical than physically bending the spoon however it's done? Maybe I can get away with writing this because none of the actual tricks I've heard of involving spoon-bending use this technique. You could always cast a spoon out of Woodsmetal. It's an interesting alloy that is quite solid at room temperature but melts at a very low temperature. That and a small heat source and, well, you figure it out. Of course, it's much more fun to give someone a really hot cup of coffee and a Woodsmetal spoon. You have to watch to make sure they don't actually drink it. But then, you want to watch anyway, don't you?
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 6,136

27th October 2003, 06:49 PM	#29
Brown Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Twin Cities, Canada Posts: 9,025	It seems to me that I once saw an apparatus advertised in a magic magazine along these lines: BEND KEYS! SPOONS! NAILS! EVEN COINS! ABSOLUTELY UNDETECTABLE! The ad naturally did not disclose the nature of the apparatus, but it's a good guess that it involves applying some degree of leverage to the item. Even if you don't have a special leverage apparatus, you can sometimes find such apparatus on the spur of the moment. Mr. Randi's "The Truth About Uri Geller" gives some examples of impromptu leverage apparatus (and how one piece of apparatus was hazardous to Uri's trousers).
	__________________ Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice

28th October 2003, 03:00 PM	#30
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 6,136	Quote: Originally posted by Brown The ad naturally did not disclose the nature of the apparatus, but it's a good guess that it involves applying some degree of leverage to the item. Eeeurgh! Must! Not! Violate! Group! Charter! I chafe at this, though. Perhaps this magical secrecy stuff was valid when interested kids could buy a magic trick for a nickel at the drug store. And I'm willing to go into a magic shop and pay big bucks for a really nice set of well made Chinese rings or some stripper decks. But when a kid is expected to shell out $20 bucks for a badly xeroxed piece of paper and a piece of badly sawn metal, it bugs me.
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 6,136