Fred Phelps and WBC to protest VaTech Funerals

TsarBomba · 20th April 2007, 12:01 PM

No joke, Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church cronies are going to "protest" at the funerals of the victims of the Virginia Tech tragedy, in attempt to impart on the greiving families Phelps' view God is punishing them for living in Evil America. Apparently the police say that there is little, if anything, they can do about these planned protests. Appeals to simple human decency will fall on deaf ears.

I got this from Phelps' "God Hates America" website. In their words, not mine:

Quote:

WBC will preach at the funerals of the Virginia Tech students killed on campus during a shooting rampage April 16, 2007. You describe this as monumental horror, but you know nothing of horror -- yet. Your bloody tyrant Bush says he is 'horrified' by it all. You know nothing of horror -- yet. Your true horror is coming. "They shall also gird themselves with sackloth, and horror shall cover them; and shame shall be upon all faces, and baldness upon all their heads" (Eze. 7:18).
Why did this happen, you ask? It's simple. On April 16, 2007, this nation, through the offices of your military and conspirators therewith took a shot at the servants of God -- your marksman was limp and lame and he had terror all around, so he did a lousy job. But what you get for your trouble is that your God shot at you! The LORD your God sent a crazed madman to shoot at your children, and he didn't miss. Get this straight -- God sent this South Korean madman to kill 31 of your children at Virginia Tech. Was God asleep while this took place? Was He on vacation? Of course not. He willed this to happen to punish you for assailing His servants.

ClintonHammond · 20th April 2007, 12:03 PM

Somebody needs to put that nutter away.

strathmeyer · 21st April 2007, 09:09 AM

Why doesn't their god hate other countries, too?

cyr · 21st April 2007, 09:24 AM

Apparently he does, at least Sweden and Canada.

(can't post URLs, but they should be obvious...)

Rrose Selavy · 21st April 2007, 12:46 PM

- deleted posted in wrong thread.

TsarBomba · 22nd April 2007, 09:05 AM

The Phelpes have now agreed not to protest the VA Tech funerals after they were given a few hours of national radio time. Talk about making a deal with the Devil.

Katana · 22nd April 2007, 09:13 AM

I wonder how long it will be before some grief-crazed relative of a fallen soldier walks into their "church" spraying bullets.

Fell · 22nd April 2007, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by strathmeyer

Why doesn't their god hate other countries, too?

http://www.godhatessweden.com/

At the top, links relating to the other three things god hates.

The Kilted Yaksman · 23rd April 2007, 11:37 AM

If Fred Phelps "protested" at the funeral of one of my relatives, I'm afraid I'd have to "protest" the continued presence of his teeth in his gums, and take my chances with the courts.
Anybody who knows me knows I am not a violent person, but he pushes all of my anger buttons.

wolfgirl · 23rd April 2007, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by richorman

The Phelpes have now agreed not to protest the VA Tech funerals after they were given a few hours of national radio time. Talk about making a deal with the Devil.

I know this guys says he thinks he's doing the right thing by giving these monsters air-time to stop them from protesting. But publicity and a spotlight are just what these pieces of ****** want. Giving it to them simply makes them more anxious to do it the next time.

wolfgirl · 23rd April 2007, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Katana

I wonder how long it will be before some grief-crazed relative of a fallen soldier walks into their "church" spraying bullets.

Not soon enough...I don't advocate violence, but I certainly wouldn't shed a tear if this happened.

triadboy · 23rd April 2007, 12:56 PM

Quote:

They shall also gird themselves with sackloth, and horror shall cover them; and shame shall be upon all faces, and baldness upon all their heads" (Eze. 7:18)

So I will be bald and wear a potato sack? That ain't so bad.

ponderingturtle · 23rd April 2007, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Fell

http://www.godhatessweden.com/

At the top, links relating to the other three things god hates.

Is one of them figs?

DOC · 23rd April 2007, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by richorman

No joke, Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church cronies are going to "protest" at the funerals of the victims of the Virginia Tech tragedy, in attempt to impart on the greiving families Phelps' view God is punishing them for living in Evil America. Apparently the police say that there is little, if anything, they can do about these planned protests. Appeals to simple human decency will fall on deaf ears.

I got this from Phelps' "God Hates America" website. In their words, not mine:

Well I'm a Christian and I disagree with Phelps. God did not cause this event. This event was caused by the sin of a man and probably the cumulative effect of the sins of others to this man. God allowed it to happen because he gave humanity the perfect gift of free will. My belief is that this event grieves God as much a anyone but He can't take back the gift of free will once it is given...

I also believe that God will punish sin either now or in the future. Because sin is repulsive to a perfect God.

scratchy · 23rd April 2007, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Fell

http://www.godhatessweden.com/

I cant tell you how proud i am, being swedish. Any country that isnt hated by him - according to Phelps that is - should really ask themselves what theyre doing wrong.

triadboy · 23rd April 2007, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

Well I'm a Christian and I disagree with Phelps. God did not cause this event. This event was caused by the sin of a man and probably the cumulative effect of the sins of others to this man. God allowed it to happen because he gave humanity the perfect gift of free will. My belief is that this event grieves God as much a anyone but He can't take back the gift of free will once it is given...

I also believe that God will punish sin either now or in the future. Because sin is repulsive to a perfect God.

This all sounds as insane as Phelps to me.

[edited to remove the word "nearly" as in "...nearly as insane..."]

TsarBomba · 23rd April 2007, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

God allowed it to happen because he gave humanity the perfect gift of free will. My belief is that this event grieves God as much a anyone but He can't take back the gift of free will once it is given...

I also believe that God will punish sin either now or in the future. Because sin is repulsive to a perfect God.

After reading this Christian perspective, all I can say is: Thank God I Am An Atheist.

Meadmaker · 23rd April 2007, 07:13 PM

Sometimes, I find myself looking for a loophole in that "free speech" clause. There really ought to be a way to shut this guy up, or at least keep him away from funerals.

Kopji · 23rd April 2007, 07:22 PM

God plans to take away our free will sometime in the future, he's just not ready yet. He is waiting until a bunch of ancient prophecies are timed just right - so he can say I told you so. That's really important.

The Phelps are who they are, but I sure don't understand how the media can keep making complete whores of themselves and sleep at night.

saizai · 23rd April 2007, 07:50 PM

DOC - The moment you say "God can't [insert anything here]", you are saying that it isn't omnipotent. And that, assuming you're a normal Christian using the usual definitions, makes it not a god.

Thus you must conclude that God can but chooses not to. On an ongoing basis.

E.g. it would not be a violation of free will for God to resurrect all those killed by Cho right now. Cho still had the free will to shoot them and kill them and die. Don't resurrect him, that causes a loop. But resurrect everyone else.

Whose free will would that violate?

How many people would immediately convert if such a thing were to happen?

So what's the pro vs con equation for choosing not to do it?

The Mutha · 23rd April 2007, 07:55 PM

Phelps and family announced that they were going to protest at the funerals of the Amish girls killed in that school shooting a couple of months ago. They "agreed" not to protest in exchange for getting an hour on some national radio program.

Ol' Fred has to be ancient by this time, how much dang longer can the idiot hang onto this world?

DOC · 23rd April 2007, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by saizai

DOC - The moment you say "God can't [insert anything here]", you are saying that it isn't omnipotent. And that, assuming you're a normal Christian using the usual definitions, makes it not a god.

Thus you must conclude that God can but chooses not to. On an ongoing basis.

Well I agree with your last sentence about choosing not to. There are several things God chooses not to do like remembering our sins when we ask for forgiveness. (Jeremiah 31:34)

I disagree with your first sentence. God can't make something exist and not exist at the same time because that is an absurdity. I learned that in a freshman logic course -- and God is not in the absurdity business.

Quote:

E.g. it would not be a violation of free will for God to resurrect all those killed by Cho right now. Cho still had the free will to shoot them and kill them and die. Don't resurrect him, that causes a loop. But resurrect everyone else.

Whose free will would that violate?

How many people would immediately convert if such a thing were to happen?

God is also not in the doing tricks business. The devil tried to get Christ to do tricks in the desert and He wouldn't do it. God wants you to come to Him for the right reasons -- not because of some well performed trick.

TsarBomba · 23rd April 2007, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

God can't make something exist and not exist at the same time because that is an absurdity. I learned that in a freshman logic course -- and God is not in the absurdity business.

You mention . . . God and . . . logic in the same breath. 'Nuf said.

Hokulele · 23rd April 2007, 10:12 PM

Your original statement was:

Originally Posted by DOC

... He can't take back the gift of free will once it is given...

Why not? This is not a case of simultaneous existence/non-existence, but a simple removal of an existing property of human nature. If god cannot do this, god is not omnipotent. QED.

sophia8 · 24th April 2007, 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by scratchy

I cant tell you how proud i am, being swedish. Any country that isnt hated by him - according to Phelps that is - should really ask themselves what theyre doing wrong.

How do we get God to hate Scotland? Suggestions needed.

Mashuna · 24th April 2007, 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by sophia8

How do we get God to hate Scotland? Suggestions needed.

It's ok, you've already got bagpipes.

Lothian · 24th April 2007, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

This event was caused by the sin of a man and probably the cumulative effect of the sins of others to this man. God allowed it to happen.

I also believe that God will punish sin either now or in the future. Because sin is repulsive to a perfect God.

God is not in the absurdity business.

I honestly see no significant difference between your beliefs and those of Phelps. Both to me are absurd.

Quote:

God is also not in the doing tricks business.

Do you believe in miracles ?

Katana · 24th April 2007, 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by saizai

DOC - The moment you say "God can't [insert anything here]", you are saying that it isn't omnipotent. And that, assuming you're a normal Christian using the usual definitions, makes it not a god.

{snip}

Originally Posted by DOC

{snip}

I disagree with your first sentence. God can't make something exist and not exist at the same time because that is an absurdity. I learned that in a freshman logic course -- and God is not in the absurdity business.

{snip}

Beyond any theological differences, I'm not following you here, DOC.

How did you come to this interpretation of what saizai was saying?

triadboy · 24th April 2007, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

-- and God is not in the absurdity business.

This is the same God who created man KNOWING he was going to sin. And when he did sin, God got upset and cursed his creation. Eventually, He killed everyone except one family. Then, two thousand years later, he impregnated a human female with His seed and produced his only son - and set in motion a plan to have his son killed and resurrected, which would somehow pay for the sins committed by the original man.

That's absurd.

Quote:

God is also not in the doing tricks business.

He gave Moses a magic trick-stick to compete with the Pharoahs magicians. He also made an ass talk. That's a nice trick.

Quote:

God wants you to come to Him for the right reasons -- not because of some well performed trick.

I'm not going to migrate to an entity that remains COMPLETELY unknown, unseen and unheard. If He would do a couple of tricks, it might get my attention.

strathmeyer · 24th April 2007, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

God is also not in the doing tricks business. The devil tried to get Christ to do tricks in the desert and He wouldn't do it. God wants you to come to Him for the right reasons -- not because of some well performed trick.

Which tricks doesn't your god do? He obviously only reveals himself to people such as yourself and not people like me. Isn't that a trick?

saizai · 24th April 2007, 01:27 PM

Is manifesting as a burning bush "a trick"? What about parting a sea? What about turning someone to salt? Razing a city? Casting plagues?

Hm, most of his tricks seem to be the violent kind, and stopped ~ 2k years ago. Odd, that.

Tanstaafl · 24th April 2007, 01:30 PM

My favorite explanation of why miracles occurred in biblical times but have stopped since:

That was the development phase of the project, we're in the maintenance phase now.

wolfgirl · 24th April 2007, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

God is not in the absurdity business.

Oh, now that's got to be one of the funniest things I've heard all day...no, all week...no, make that so far this year! Everything about the concept of gods is patently absurd!

Darth Rotor · 24th April 2007, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Tanstaafl

My favorite explanation of why miracles occurred in biblical times but have stopped since:

That was the development phase of the project, we're in the maintenance phase now.

Well played.

For richorman:

I wonder if the Patriot Guards Riders would arrive to counter Phelps and friends, or if their bikerness makes them unwelcome at Virginia Tech.

Anyone have an insight into that? They have done yeoman work in Texas at funerals for soldier's families.

DR

saizai · 24th April 2007, 02:43 PM

DR - Guess we won't find out, since he's been bought off.

Personally I think they'd be accepted. Biker or not they seem a respectful bunch.

<-- is also a biker

Rufo · 24th April 2007, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

Well I'm a Christian and I disagree with Phelps.

Who exactly, even among Christians, agrees with Phelps outside the WBC? He's voluntarily made everyone enemies, even many who share a large part of his beliefs.

If I was a Christian, I would probably believe Fred Phelps was Satan. He is like a twisted parody of most Christians I meet - instead of cherrypicking parts of his religion's teachings that are nice, he picks the most horrible and hateful ones. Instead of interpreting everything for the best, he interprets it for the worst. He's a caricature, a distorted mirror image of the 'loving Christian', a living embodiment of hate.

Even without being a Christian, I still find it somewhat frightening that a person can be so obsessed with hate without any obvious reason. I just hope that I will one day find out that the WBC is just a sick joke, and I'll be relieved. Maybe I'll even laugh at it.

Lonewulf · 24th April 2007, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Rufo

If I was a Christian, I would probably believe Fred Phelps was Satan. He is like a twisted parody of most Christians I meet - instead of cherrypicking parts of his religion's teachings that are nice, he picks the most horrible and hateful ones. Instead of interpreting everything for the best, he interprets it for the worst. He's a caricature, a distorted mirror image of the 'loving Christian', a living embodiment of hate.

I wouldn't.

He'd be a lowly demon, incapable of convincing the public. Satan has better rep.

TsarBomba · 24th April 2007, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Well played.

For richorman:

I wonder if the Patriot Guards Riders would arrive to counter Phelps and friends, or if their bikerness makes them unwelcome at Virginia Tech.

Anyone have an insight into that? They have done yeoman work in Texas at funerals for soldier's families.

DR

The reports I read on the 'net said that the PGR was planning on coming to VA Tch to counter the Phelpses, but that was cut short when Gallagher made his deal with the Devil (i.e. Fred Phelps).

TsarBomba · 24th April 2007, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Rufo

I just hope that I will one day find out that the WBC is just a sick joke, and I'll be relieved. Maybe I'll even laugh at it.

I have read serious criticisims of WBC by fundamentalist Christian groups that assert that Phelps and WBC are actually part of some atheist conspiracy to defame Christianity.

strathmeyer · 24th April 2007, 07:55 PM

Really? It'd be nice if I heard any religious group speak out against WBC anywhere, ever.

20th April 2007, 12:01 PM	#1
TsarBomba One Damn Dirty Ape Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: 5430 feet above you Posts: 796	Fred Phelps and WBC to protest VaTech Funerals No joke, Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church cronies are going to "protest" at the funerals of the victims of the Virginia Tech tragedy, in attempt to impart on the greiving families Phelps' view God is punishing them for living in Evil America. Apparently the police say that there is little, if anything, they can do about these planned protests. Appeals to simple human decency will fall on deaf ears. I got this from Phelps' "God Hates America" website. In their words, not mine: Quote: WBC will preach at the funerals of the Virginia Tech students killed on campus during a shooting rampage April 16, 2007. You describe this as monumental horror, but you know nothing of horror -- yet. Your bloody tyrant Bush says he is 'horrified' by it all. You know nothing of horror -- yet. Your true horror is coming. "They shall also gird themselves with sackloth, and horror shall cover them; and shame shall be upon all faces, and baldness upon all their heads" (Eze. 7:18). Why did this happen, you ask? It's simple. On April 16, 2007, this nation, through the offices of your military and conspirators therewith took a shot at the servants of God -- your marksman was limp and lame and he had terror all around, so he did a lousy job. But what you get for your trouble is that your God shot at you! The LORD your God sent a crazed madman to shoot at your children, and he didn't miss. Get this straight -- God sent this South Korean madman to kill 31 of your children at Virginia Tech. Was God asleep while this took place? Was He on vacation? Of course not. He willed this to happen to punish you for assailing His servants.
	__________________ Signature line? I don't need no stinking signature line!

21st April 2007, 09:24 AM	#4
cyr New Blood Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 11	Apparently he does, at least Sweden and Canada. (can't post URLs, but they should be obvious...)
cyr New Blood Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 11

21st April 2007, 12:46 PM	#5
Rrose Selavy Stranded in Sub-Atomica Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: UK Posts: 2,917	- deleted posted in wrong thread.
	Last edited by Rrose Selavy; 21st April 2007 at 12:48 PM.

22nd April 2007, 09:05 AM	#6
TsarBomba One Damn Dirty Ape Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: 5430 feet above you Posts: 796	Protest Cancelled--Praise Be. The Phelpes have now agreed not to protest the VA Tech funerals after they were given a few hours of national radio time. Talk about making a deal with the Devil.
	__________________ Signature line? I don't need no stinking signature line!

22nd April 2007, 09:13 AM	#7
Katana Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 4,894	I wonder how long it will be before some grief-crazed relative of a fallen soldier walks into their "church" spraying bullets.
Katana Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 4,894	__________________ "I think Katana is as big of a perv as the rest of us." - Dragonrock "The rationality was there, and clear and concise. The condescention was hinted at and was like french onion dip on the perfect potato chip. Tasted like woo smackdown." - Fowlsound (aka Ducky, darnit) "Katana is one quick shut-yo-mouth!" - JonnyFive StopSylviaBrowne

20th April 2007, 12:03 PM	#2
ClintonHammond Guest Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Windsor Ontario Canada Posts: 871	Somebody needs to put that nutter away.

21st April 2007, 09:09 AM	#3
strathmeyer seriously unable to be serious Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Posts: 2,382	Why doesn't their god hate other countries, too?

22nd April 2007, 12:25 PM	#8
Fell Student Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Pillar of Skulls Posts: 41	Originally Posted by strathmeyer Why doesn't their god hate other countries, too? http://www.godhatessweden.com/ At the top, links relating to the other three things god hates.
	__________________ 2=3 for large values of 2

23rd April 2007, 11:37 AM	#9
The Kilted Yaksman Sense Offender Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 549	If Fred Phelps "protested" at the funeral of one of my relatives, I'm afraid I'd have to "protest" the continued presence of his teeth in his gums, and take my chances with the courts. Anybody who knows me knows I am not a violent person, but he pushes all of my anger buttons.
	__________________ "Reality" is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

23rd April 2007, 11:56 AM	#10
wolfgirl Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Kearney, MO Posts: 1,361	Originally Posted by richorman The Phelpes have now agreed not to protest the VA Tech funerals after they were given a few hours of national radio time. Talk about making a deal with the Devil. I know this guys says he thinks he's doing the right thing by giving these monsters air-time to stop them from protesting. But publicity and a spotlight are just what these pieces of ****** want. Giving it to them simply makes them more anxious to do it the next time.
	__________________ My moral compass was within myself, not in the pages of a sacred book. - Ayaan Hirsi Ali

23rd April 2007, 11:58 AM	#11
wolfgirl Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Kearney, MO Posts: 1,361	Originally Posted by Katana I wonder how long it will be before some grief-crazed relative of a fallen soldier walks into their "church" spraying bullets. Not soon enough...I don't advocate violence, but I certainly wouldn't shed a tear if this happened.
	__________________ My moral compass was within myself, not in the pages of a sacred book. - Ayaan Hirsi Ali

23rd April 2007, 12:56 PM	#12
triadboy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 2,556	Quote: They shall also gird themselves with sackloth, and horror shall cover them; and shame shall be upon all faces, and baldness upon all their heads" (Eze. 7:18) So I will be bald and wear a potato sack? That ain't so bad.

23rd April 2007, 01:07 PM	#13
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,420	Originally Posted by Fell http://www.godhatessweden.com/ At the top, links relating to the other three things god hates. Is one of them figs?
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

23rd April 2007, 01:23 PM	#14
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 7,741	Originally Posted by richorman No joke, Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church cronies are going to "protest" at the funerals of the victims of the Virginia Tech tragedy, in attempt to impart on the greiving families Phelps' view God is punishing them for living in Evil America. Apparently the police say that there is little, if anything, they can do about these planned protests. Appeals to simple human decency will fall on deaf ears. I got this from Phelps' "God Hates America" website. In their words, not mine: Well I'm a Christian and I disagree with Phelps. God did not cause this event. This event was caused by the sin of a man and probably the cumulative effect of the sins of others to this man. God allowed it to happen because he gave humanity the perfect gift of free will. My belief is that this event grieves God as much a anyone but He can't take back the gift of free will once it is given... I also believe that God will punish sin either now or in the future. Because sin is repulsive to a perfect God.

23rd April 2007, 01:34 PM	#15
scratchy Muse Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: In the happy state of denial Posts: 607	Originally Posted by Fell http://www.godhatessweden.com/ I cant tell you how proud i am, being swedish. Any country that isnt hated by him - according to Phelps that is - should really ask themselves what theyre doing wrong.
	Last edited by scratchy; 23rd April 2007 at 01:53 PM.

23rd April 2007, 01:44 PM	#16
triadboy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 2,556	Originally Posted by DOC Well I'm a Christian and I disagree with Phelps. God did not cause this event. This event was caused by the sin of a man and probably the cumulative effect of the sins of others to this man. God allowed it to happen because he gave humanity the perfect gift of free will. My belief is that this event grieves God as much a anyone but He can't take back the gift of free will once it is given... I also believe that God will punish sin either now or in the future. Because sin is repulsive to a perfect God. This all sounds as insane as Phelps to me. [edited to remove the word "nearly" as in "...nearly as insane..."]
	Last edited by triadboy; 23rd April 2007 at 01:46 PM.

23rd April 2007, 06:39 PM	#17
TsarBomba One Damn Dirty Ape Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: 5430 feet above you Posts: 796	Originally Posted by DOC God allowed it to happen because he gave humanity the perfect gift of free will. My belief is that this event grieves God as much a anyone but He can't take back the gift of free will once it is given... I also believe that God will punish sin either now or in the future. Because sin is repulsive to a perfect God. After reading this Christian perspective, all I can say is: Thank God I Am An Atheist.
	__________________ Signature line? I don't need no stinking signature line!

23rd April 2007, 07:13 PM	#18
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,435	Sometimes, I find myself looking for a loophole in that "free speech" clause. There really ought to be a way to shut this guy up, or at least keep him away from funerals.
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

23rd April 2007, 07:22 PM	#19
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,697	God plans to take away our free will sometime in the future, he's just not ready yet. He is waiting until a bunch of ancient prophecies are timed just right - so he can say I told you so. That's really important. The Phelps are who they are, but I sure don't understand how the media can keep making complete whores of themselves and sleep at night.

23rd April 2007, 07:50 PM	#20
saizai Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,374	DOC - The moment you say "God can't [insert anything here]", you are saying that it isn't omnipotent. And that, assuming you're a normal Christian using the usual definitions, makes it not a god. Thus you must conclude that God can but *chooses not to*. On an ongoing basis. E.g. it would not be a violation of free will for God to resurrect all those killed by Cho right now. Cho still had the free will to shoot them and kill them and die. Don't resurrect him, that causes a loop. But resurrect everyone else. Whose free will would that violate? How many people would immediately convert if such a thing were to happen? So what's the pro vs con equation for choosing not to do it?
saizai Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,374	__________________ Friendly advice: if in an argument with me, don't make tons of fallacies or you'll just embarass yourself when I call you on 'em. Kthx! See my Youtube videos for more good argument, as well as bits about my various other interests, like ASL, cogsci, neurosci, meditation, cooking, etc. Last edited by saizai; 23rd April 2007 at 07:52 PM.

23rd April 2007, 07:55 PM	#21
The Mutha thoroughly confused, but valiantly trying... Join Date: May 2006 Location: Houston Posts: 1,504	Phelps and family announced that they were going to protest at the funerals of the Amish girls killed in that school shooting a couple of months ago. They "agreed" not to protest in exchange for getting an hour on some national radio program. Ol' Fred has to be ancient by this time, how much dang longer can the idiot hang onto this world?

23rd April 2007, 09:06 PM	#22
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 7,741	Originally Posted by saizai DOC - The moment you say "God can't [insert anything here]", you are saying that it isn't omnipotent. And that, assuming you're a normal Christian using the usual definitions, makes it not a god. Thus you must conclude that God can but *chooses not to*. On an ongoing basis. Well I agree with your last sentence about choosing not to. There are several things God chooses not to do like remembering our sins when we ask for forgiveness. (Jeremiah 31:34) I disagree with your first sentence. God can't make something exist and not exist at the same time because that is an absurdity. I learned that in a freshman logic course -- and God is not in the absurdity business. Quote: E.g. it would not be a violation of free will for God to resurrect all those killed by Cho right now. Cho still had the free will to shoot them and kill them and die. Don't resurrect him, that causes a loop. But resurrect everyone else. Whose free will would that violate? How many people would immediately convert if such a thing were to happen? God is also not in the doing tricks business. The devil tried to get Christ to do tricks in the desert and He wouldn't do it. God wants you to come to Him for the right reasons -- not because of some well performed trick.
	Last edited by DOC; 23rd April 2007 at 09:41 PM.

23rd April 2007, 09:39 PM	#23
TsarBomba One Damn Dirty Ape Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: 5430 feet above you Posts: 796	Originally Posted by DOC God can't make something exist and not exist at the same time because that is an absurdity. I learned that in a freshman logic course -- and God is not in the absurdity business. You mention . . . God and . . . logic in the same breath. 'Nuf said.
	__________________ Signature line? I don't need no stinking signature line!

23rd April 2007, 10:12 PM	#24
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,265	Your original statement was: Originally Posted by DOC ... He can't take back the gift of free will once it is given... Why not? This is not a case of simultaneous existence/non-existence, but a simple removal of an existing property of human nature. If god cannot do this, god is not omnipotent. QED.
	__________________ Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" Some person: "Why did you shoot that?" Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" - Tragic Monkey

24th April 2007, 03:11 AM	#25
sophia8 Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: In the dark, dark forest.... Posts: 2,253	Originally Posted by scratchy I cant tell you how proud i am, being swedish. Any country that isnt hated by him - according to Phelps that is - should really ask themselves what theyre doing wrong. How do we get God to hate Scotland? Suggestions needed.
	__________________ "Nature is floods and famines and earthquakes and viruses and little blue-footed booby babies getting their brains pecked out by their stronger siblings! ....Nature doesn't care about me, or about anybody in particular - nature can be terrifying! Why do they even put words like 'natural' on products like shampoo, like it's automatically a good thing? I mean, sulfuric acid is natural!" -Julia Sweeney

24th April 2007, 03:40 AM	#26
Mashuna Ovis ex Machina Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Welsh Wales Posts: 6,578	Originally Posted by sophia8 How do we get God to hate Scotland? Suggestions needed. It's ok, you've already got bagpipes.

24th April 2007, 03:46 AM	#27
Lothian Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: https://twitter.com/CV4UK Posts: 10,373	Originally Posted by DOC This event was caused by the sin of a man and probably the cumulative effect of the sins of others to this man. God allowed it to happen. I also believe that God will punish sin either now or in the future. Because sin is repulsive to a perfect God. God is not in the absurdity business. I honestly see no significant difference between your beliefs and those of Phelps. Both to me are absurd. Quote: God is also not in the doing tricks business. Do you believe in miracles ?

24th April 2007, 03:52 AM	#28
Katana Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 4,894	Originally Posted by saizai DOC - The moment you say "God can't [insert anything here]", you are saying that it isn't omnipotent. And that, assuming you're a normal Christian using the usual definitions, makes it not a god. {snip} Originally Posted by DOC {snip} I disagree with your first sentence. God can't make something exist and not exist at the same time because that is an absurdity. I learned that in a freshman logic course -- and God is not in the absurdity business. {snip} Beyond any theological differences, I'm not following you here, DOC. How did you come to this interpretation of what saizai was saying?
Katana Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 4,894	__________________ "I think Katana is as big of a perv as the rest of us." - Dragonrock "The rationality was there, and clear and concise. The condescention was hinted at and was like french onion dip on the perfect potato chip. Tasted like woo smackdown." - Fowlsound (aka Ducky, darnit) "Katana is one quick shut-yo-mouth!" - JonnyFive StopSylviaBrowne

24th April 2007, 07:46 AM	#29
triadboy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 2,556	Originally Posted by DOC -- and God is not in the absurdity business. This is the same God who created man KNOWING he was going to sin. And when he did sin, God got upset and cursed his creation. Eventually, He killed everyone except one family. Then, two thousand years later, he impregnated a human female with His seed and produced his only son - and set in motion a plan to have his son killed and resurrected, which would somehow pay for the sins committed by the original man. That's absurd. Quote: God is also not in the doing tricks business. He gave Moses a magic trick-stick to compete with the Pharoahs magicians. He also made an ass talk. That's a nice trick. Quote: God wants you to come to Him for the right reasons -- not because of some well performed trick. I'm not going to migrate to an entity that remains COMPLETELY unknown, unseen and unheard. If He would do a couple of tricks, it might get my attention.

24th April 2007, 09:05 AM	#30
strathmeyer seriously unable to be serious Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Posts: 2,382	Originally Posted by DOC God is also not in the doing tricks business. The devil tried to get Christ to do tricks in the desert and He wouldn't do it. God wants you to come to Him for the right reasons -- not because of some well performed trick. Which tricks doesn't your god do? He obviously only reveals himself to people such as yourself and not people like me. Isn't that a trick?

24th April 2007, 01:27 PM	#31
saizai Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,374	Is manifesting as a burning bush "a trick"? What about parting a sea? What about turning someone to salt? Razing a city? Casting plagues? Hm, most of his tricks seem to be the violent kind, and stopped ~ 2k years ago. Odd, that.
saizai Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,374	__________________ Friendly advice: if in an argument with me, don't make tons of fallacies or you'll just embarass yourself when I call you on 'em. Kthx! See my Youtube videos for more good argument, as well as bits about my various other interests, like ASL, cogsci, neurosci, meditation, cooking, etc.

24th April 2007, 01:30 PM	#32
Tanstaafl Unindicted Co-conspirator Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 5,622	My favorite explanation of why miracles occurred in biblical times but have stopped since: That was the development phase of the project, we're in the maintenance phase now.
	__________________ To forgive is human, to condemn for eternity is divine. -- AudioFreak Truth is where evidence comes from, not where belief leads to. --yy2bggggs Expelled exposed! Sylvia Browne

24th April 2007, 02:24 PM	#33
wolfgirl Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Kearney, MO Posts: 1,361	Originally Posted by DOC God is not in the absurdity business. Oh, now that's got to be one of the funniest things I've heard all day...no, all week...no, make that so far this year! Everything about the concept of gods is patently absurd!
	__________________ My moral compass was within myself, not in the pages of a sacred book. - Ayaan Hirsi Ali

24th April 2007, 02:37 PM	#34
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,261	Originally Posted by Tanstaafl My favorite explanation of why miracles occurred in biblical times but have stopped since: That was the development phase of the project, we're in the maintenance phase now. Well played. For richorman: I wonder if the Patriot Guards Riders would arrive to counter Phelps and friends, or if their bikerness makes them unwelcome at Virginia Tech. Anyone have an insight into that? They have done yeoman work in Texas at funerals for soldier's families. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

24th April 2007, 02:43 PM	#35
saizai Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,374	DR - Guess we won't find out, since he's been bought off. Personally I think they'd be accepted. Biker or not they seem a respectful bunch. <-- is also a biker
saizai Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,374	__________________ Friendly advice: if in an argument with me, don't make tons of fallacies or you'll just embarass yourself when I call you on 'em. Kthx! See my Youtube videos for more good argument, as well as bits about my various other interests, like ASL, cogsci, neurosci, meditation, cooking, etc.